jazz drumming help - struggling w/playing ahead

dwdjmu

Junior Member
I've been taking lessons, learning the jazz & bebop thing for about 18 months now, and things are going well- I've been playing in some jams and going through "art of bop" cover to cover.

The one thing that is giving me trouble is learning to really push and drive the beat.

Regardless of the tempo, my natural time is to stay back behind the beat - even when I think I'm trying to push it so it's edgier/more aggressively ahead, it's still on that back part of the beat.

I want to learn to play more on top.

I wanted to see if any of you more experienced players or teachers had any tips to help someone work on time feel - and specifically playing ahead or more "on top."

Much thanks.
 
listen to this constantly -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnihGqumE

play along with recordings of guys like max roach and philly joe and really try to lock with their ride cymbal.

Just play quarter notes with a metronome and try to push your beat a little ahead of the click, remember that while the ride pattern has swung 8th notes and triplet subdivision, that quarter note pulse is still king.
 
wow!

that dude is way on top. i have been reading about charlie persip here and there lately.

nice find, man- that actually is quite illuminating.

thanks so much-
 
Im really not a straight ahead player, more of a fusion guy, but you may be exerting too much effort. To be ahead it has to be almost effortless and the only way to get to that point is through technique...so try lifting the stick with the rebound which can be especially tricky on a ride.. Im a real advocate of this technique and I use it to great effect...Hope this helps! Jason Burns
 
It's an important point you raise because I see the time feel in jazz as very different (normally) from many other popular styles. It is essential to be on top of the time as you say & this can be practised against any external time reference.

That said, is this something you feel you can achieve in other styles? If you can't play with or on-top of time in other styles (you've already said you lay back naturally) then there's not reason to expect it to "appear" in swing.

I don't see this as a major technique issue really. It's much more to do with listening and control (which IS linked with technique I grant you).

Another question - do you feel you can Swing? It is possible to Swing on the back of the beat too, it's just that it's not often what the music requires. The "anticipated" phrasing in jazz seems to cry out for the on-top time.
 
Listen to a lot of Roy Haynes and Barry Altschul, and then just put the time where you hear it. I personally think it's a mistake to make it any more complicated than just trying to play good time. If you're prone to actually dragging, you need to correct that, but within the bounds of good time there's enough air between your and the other musicians' conception to more than account for any intentional pushing or laying back you might do. So just play it where you hear it.
 
Listen to a lot of Roy Haynes and Barry Altschul, and then just put the time where you hear it. I personally think it's a mistake to make it any more complicated than just trying to play good time. If you're prone to actually dragging, you need to correct that, but within the bounds of good time there's enough air between your and the other musicians' conception to more than account for any intentional pushing or laying back you might do. So just play it where you hear it.


nailed it

............
 
Like previous posters have said, listen to players who have that feel and try and lock in with their ride cymbal.

Something I've found that gives the impression of the time pushing, is to really exagerrate the difference in dynamic between your skip note and quarter note by making that skip note as quiet as possible. It's important not to over power your quarter note however, as you want it to sit nicley with the hats, bass and snare. The "Elvin Jones ride pattern" is another device you could apply, accenting the skip note i.e. one and AH-two and AH-three and Ah-four and AH if you're using moeller motions that'd be: tap up DOWN-tap up DOWN-tap up DOWN-tap up DOWN

Hope you're well,

Kev
 
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