Anyone for a fight? Yamaha fans :)

How is this like the Club Custom ? The Club Custom has a lacquer finish, the Sakae a wrap. the Club Custom is 100% Kapur, the Sakae is a three ply maple poplar shell .

Both are attempts to copy vintage drums, chief. Sakae is a Gretsch knockoff, the Club Custom...well, Luan by any other name is still Luan (stencils).
 
Both are attempts to copy vintage drums, chief. Sakae is a Gretsch knockoff, the Club Custom...well, Luan by any other name is still Luan (stencils).

Kapur shells are not Luan, different woods, different hardness rhey even look different. luan is blond, Kapur has a mahogany color to it.
 
Kapur shells are not Luan, different woods, different hardness rhey even look different. luan is blond, Kapur has a mahogany color to it.
Yes, they are different. Luan is plentiful and a fairly poor tone wood. Kapur is a better all round tone wood but listed by IUCN red list of threatened species as "critically endangered" (1 category short of extinct in the wild), so I wouldn't be counting on availability for much longer.
 
The new Sakae drums look very nice and I can only assume sound great too.
But (some of) their drums are really high end and I don't know how that's gonna fly for an unknown brand. That said, I don't think Yamaha will slaughter them either.
Sounds like fun at LDS.

Someone pass me the popcorn...

Neal
 
I thought SJ's kit was a Yamaha Club Custom?
 
But (some of) their drums are really high end and I don't know how that's gonna fly for an unknown brand.
Sounds like fun at LDS.

Someone pass me the popcorn...

Neal
Popcorn indeed Neal :) Believe me, I know what it's like to offer high end drums & be simultaneously unknown :(

As for the dynamics between the two companies at the show, it should provide some good people watching intrigue for sure.

In many ways, I don't envy Sakae (other than their likely marketing budget) Drummers buy according to the following criteria in order of importance:

1/ Brand
2/ Brand
3/ Brand
4/ Price
5/ Finishes
6/ Hardware
7/ Brand
8/ Size availability
9/ Brand
10/ Sound

According to this model, you can see that Sakae have a massive mountain to climb compared to Yamaha.
 
Popcorn indeed Neal :) Believe me, I know what it's like to offer high end drums & be simultaneously unknown :(

As for the dynamics between the two companies at the show, it should provide some good people watching intrigue for sure.

In many ways, I don't envy Sakae (other than their likely marketing budget) Drummers buy according to the following criteria in order of importance:

1/ Brand
2/ Brand
3/ Brand
4/ Price
5/ Finishes
6/ Hardware
7/ Brand
8/ Size availability
9/ Brand
10/ Sound

According to this model, you can see that Sakae have a massive mountain to climb compared to Yamaha.

Sorry, I should have made a distinction:
Not only is Sakae unknown, but they are playing in the same sandbox as Yamaha, Gretsch, Ludwig, DW, Sonor, etc etc - high end ply drums.
While I'm sure you could write a book about establishing a brand and working your way up from being an unknown... you DO have several distinguishing things that set you WAY apart from Sakae.

I like your list. Sad but true.

Neal
 
ure.

In many ways, I don't envy Sakae (other than their likely marketing budget) Drummers buy according to the following criteria in order of importance:

1/ Brand
2/ Brand
3/ Brand
4/ Price
5/ Finishes
6/ Hardware
7/ Brand
8/ Size availability
9/ Brand
10/ Sound

According to this model, you can see that Sakae have a massive mountain to climb compared to Yamaha.

So true, so true.

One one hand, they can look to Mapex as a company that came seemingly out of nowhere and established themselves as a major brand.

On the other hand, Kaman had some of the deepest pockets in the M.I. industry, and their attempts at Legend brand went nowhere fast, even with Harvey Mason as an endorser. They had much better luck working with an establish named with Gretsch.
Gibson, another deep pocket company, failed with their purchase of the the Slingerland name, even after signing Greg Bisonette as an endorser. And Peavy brand drums failed to catch on, despite being one of the biggest name brands in the overall MI business.
 
Yamaha didn't build the drum shells.......period.Sakae did,using Yamaha specs. and technology granted,but they still built them.NOT Yamaha.


Sure, but SAKAE wouldn'tve been building hi-end drums if it weren't for that YAMAHA technology.

You can bet it was YAMAHA who initiated the split.

YAMAHA didn't ever 'need' SAKE to build their drums, they were honoring a deep Japanese tradition with their union.




It's that same as Keller and Jaspar building Camco,DW,Gretsch,Fibes and Rogers shells years ago


Its not the same. GRETSCH didn't design, build and pay for KELLER'S molds.


The actual person/people building the shells (employees) is semantics.
 
Just a small reminder From Yamaha :


The first models were produced at Yamaha's Niitsu factory in Hamamatsu, Japan, and later at our Miyatake factory as well. Many drummers who are familiar with Yamaha today believe that Sakae Rhythm was the original Yamaha production facility, but in fact production was started at Yamaha's own factories. Another common misconception is that our Air Seal System was developed at Sakae Rhythm, but it was actually developed and introduced right from the first models that were produced at our own factories. One of the earliest Yamaha drum brochures shows the original Yamaha production facility and describes Air Seal System technology, a Yamaha innovation that is a vital part of our identity as a drum manufacturer to this day.

So Yamaha designed the shell and how to be formed/produced.. as well as EVERY SINGLE LUG, BRACKET, ETC....... How about the classic YAMAHA SPUR ??

and gave a job to Sakae workers to help build the drum. Lucky Sakae who is now freaking out about their future.
 
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Different strokes for different folks. I love my Club Customs, definitely different sonic quality from their Absolutes and Recording Customs. Warmer with more of a vintage vibe.



Me too! Love the tone of my Club Customs. I don't have any issues about who built them. The folks at Sakae are fine craftsman.

Can yamaha design and build a great shell without Sakae? You bet, the Phoenix is a great example. Yamaha's highend kit not made by Sakae.
 
Looks like Yamaha showed a lot more respect for Sakae than Rogers....
 
Looks like Yamaha showed a lot more respect for Sakae than Rogers....

This one is Japan-Japan.....Different times..... or maybe they've and learned from the nationalism that can ensue during any takeover between different companies in 2 countries.

Is it that big a deal a major artist like Jordan has dropped Yamaha? Major Artists appeared to change all the time.....Vinnie, Carmine, Paice etc. all made changes that suited them.

My guess is this is a blip on the radar for a HUGE corporation like Yamaha, who's major poker in the fire is not drum making. Sakae won't lose, but carve out a small piece. All other factors the same I for one would buy from them simply because they are the little guy.....the underdog in this.
 
This one is Japan-Japan.....Different times..... or maybe they've and learned from the nationalism that can ensue during any takeover between different companies in 2 countries.

Is it that big a deal a major artist like Jordan has dropped Yamaha? Major Artists appeared to change all the time.....Vinnie, Carmine, Paice etc. all made changes that suited them.

My guess is this is a blip on the radar for a HUGE corporation like Yamaha, who's major poker in the fire is not drum making. Sakae won't lose, but carve out a small piece. All other factors the same I for one would buy from them simply because they are the little guy.....the underdog in this.

I do think Jordan leaving Yammie is a big deal. He, Weckl and Gadd are arguably the biggest "Face" of Yamaha. It would be like Dennis Chambers leaving Pearl. We're talking about a 30+ year relationship.
 
I'm curious ..over what?
I recall reading Slingerland won his company in a card game in 1920's, but why didthese 3 feud later on (other than competition)?

Bill Ludwig Jr and Bud Slingerland Jr. were rivals and there was personal bad blood between them,till they split the difference and went 50/50 and bought Leedy-Ludwig from The Conn corp.

Ludwig bought the right to use his own name and all the patents( Ludwig was at the time WFL not Ludwig) and Slingerland got the Leedy side of the house.This is when Ludwig became the Ludwig drum company.Till then they were Ludwig& Ludwig,Leedy & Ludwig and WFL(Willian F Ludwig drum company)

Slingerland(Bud Sr.) won a mail order fanchize for ukulele lessons in that riverboat cardgame,not the Slingerland Banjo and drum company.Slingerland sold drum and banjo heads and guitars BEFORE they sold drums.

Ludwig and Slingerland were both Chicago companys at the time and early on,fought over calf and splunk hides from the Chicago stock yards for drum heads,which they both sold.

Gretsch sued Slingerland in 1935 over the use of the name "broadcaster" which was used first by Gretsch.In 35 Slingerland introduced the "Broadcaster" snare drum.

Gretsch won the suit ,so in 36,Slingerland stopped production of the Broadcaster and introduced the Radio King,which was the same drum except,the stick chopper rims now were engraved "Slingerland Radio King,and not Broadcaster>

Ludwig stole the name Black Beauty from Slingerland who first used the black beauty NOB finish in the 20's on their brass shelled Artist model.The Ludwig De Luxe and Black Beauty are almost a nut for bolt steal of the finish,hardware and design.


Rogers feuded with Wallberg and Auge over hardware requirements,as W&A made hardware for everyone.They even made the first year or two swiv-o-matic hardware,till Rogers took over that duty shortly.

They all fueded and fought over a share of the pie,and copied each others designs.

Look at the Luddy P-83 and the Slingerland Rapid strainer.The're almost identical.Same exact design.You can even bolt a P-83 on the a Slingy and vice versa.Look at the Slingerland 3 way strainer,which they ALL used at one time.

At the time,drum companys were owned by the family namesake till the early 60's ,so personal pride was at stake.It's not like todays corporate model.

Think Hatfields and McCoys with drums and without guns.

They also fought over distributorship of Zildjian A and K cymbals as well as Paiste.

Zildjian had to sue Gretsch to use their own Name and sell K Zildjian cymbals which were still made in Constantinope/Istanbul at the time.

The eventual winner was Ludwig.Gretsch,Rogers and Slingerland sold out in the 60's so they were't a family run bisiness anymore.

Ludwig also completey dominated drum sales in the mid 60's to around the late 70's

The history of the business is replete with infighting.Employes leaving one drum company for another Like Cecil Strupe leaving Ludwig for his arch rival U.G.Leedy.

See what I mean.Sorry,I didn't mean to hijack the thread Andy,but it's somewhat related to drum company break ups,finance and politics.:)

Steve B
 
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