drum snobbery

LanceG33 said:
As an old school hard rock/metal guy I can say a good bit of this is a bit of the 'spectacle' in relation to showmanship. Sure there are guys who use every part of their monster kits but you can also see top notch drummers get 99% of the same results with much smaller results.

There has always a bit of the over-the-top, larger-than-life aspect of playing this brand of music and monster kits are just another component of that.
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It's our 24th fret I think. Our 11. But, I won't knock anyone for wanting a larger pallete from which to paint their picture.

I think with large kits comes great responsibilty.
Ah no, that's Spiderman sorry. Big kits create technical difficulties, I see guys with loads if toms but their hi-hats get shoved out to the side, or their ride is in an awkward position and I think to myself 'I couldn't play on that'.
So I respect players who can. I also respect people who can Matt Halpern it up to the max too!
 
Gvdadrummasum said:
....but music doesnt have to be Scriabin etude opus 42 or 46 no. 5 to be complex....(which everyone who loves metal should listen to because it pretty much IS metal)....it can be carefully crafted chord stackings with incorporated harmonies that build a brilliant la la pop song .... complexity in disguise if you will....thats their art
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100% agree, The Beatles' music is just that "complexity in disguise", yes, by today's standards it might sound overrated, we have heard almost every possible way to approach, create, manipulate, experiment, mixing styles and instruments within another style of music, and yes, we had hundreds of compilations by the Beatles, they've been over played on the radio and TV for the last 40 years since the fab four stopped as we know them, but back then, especially the second period from 1965 'til 1970, it was an incredibly innovative rock band, they mixed instruments from "non rock" background, experimented with sound an thechnology, they added an underrated complexity within their music with a unique approach, 1967 Sgt Peppers' was a revolution as a concept album, it's easy to dismiss all this now, such is easy a technology these days, but I'm convinced that if the Beatles didn't exist, rock music would not be the same today, while I agree they're overrated nowadays, they fully deserve the fame, they have influenced zillions of bands and musicians worldwide, everybody know the Beatles, whatever they like them or not, not many bands in rock history have achieved this kind of fame. :)

Eleanor Rigby, what a rock song this is, totally innovative, brilliant and without any rock instruments ...complexity in disguise? ... no, pure genius :))

Let's go back to metal drummers ...and how the world percieve them, that's the OP's topic, isn't it?
 
JohnnySomersett said:
Im sorry dude, but, 'Djent' is not a genre of music, it's a guitar tone.


Its like saying "what kinda music does your band play?" "we play paradiddle"
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Humm...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=djent
7. Djent

A style of music in the metal world.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djent
Djent,[1] also known as djent metal,[2] is a heavy metal music subgenre that emerged as a spin-off from progressive metal.[3][4]...

The word "djent" is an onomatopoeia for the distinctive high-gain, distorted palm-muted guitar sound employed by Meshuggah.

Typically, the word is used to refer to music that makes use of this sound, to the sound itself, or to the scene that revolves around it.[5]
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It seems the answer is largely semantics.

Motorhead is considered heavy metal by most people, yet Lemmy himself says they are just a rock band.

Although I can't say I listen to any Djent bands myself.
 
JohnnySomersett said:
Im sorry dude, but, 'Djent' is not a genre of music, it's a guitar tone.
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Metal has always been guilty of the microgenre tendency of categorizing sounds. I'm not prepared to say it's valid or not but for those deeply conversant at the granular level, having a common vocabulary is never a bad thing.

While knee-deep in a music chat/rant/skreed among peers who fly the same flag, it is useful to know what it means to say 'grindcore'; 'Gothenberg death-metal'; 'djent'. Sure it might seem absurd to the outsider who cannot make the distinctions within the wall of sound coming from the jacked-to-11 Marshalls, but in all liklihood they are not part of a circle that needs such granular and exacting distinctions.

A fun article on the topic.
http://www.invisibleoranges.com/2012/02/microgenres-1-the-introduction/
 
Mad About Drums said:
100% agree, The Beatles' music is just that "complexity in disguise", yes, by today's standards it might sound overrated, we have heard almost every possible way to approach, create, manipulate, experiment, mixing styles and instruments within another style of music, and yes, we had hundreds of compilations by the Beatles, they've been over played on the radio and TV for the last 40 years since the fab four stopped as we know them, but back then, especially the second period from 1965 'til 1970, it was an incredibly innovative rock band, they mixed instruments from "non rock" background, experimented with sound an thechnology, they added an underrated complexity within their music with a unique approach, 1967 Sgt Peppers' was a revolution as a concept album, it's easy to dismiss all this now, such is easy a technology these days, but I'm convinced that if the Beatles didn't exist, rock music would not be the same today, while I agree they're overrated nowadays, they fully deserve the fame, they have influenced zillions of bands and musicians worldwide, everybody know the Beatles, whatever they like them or not, not many bands in rock history have achieved this kind of fame. :)




With you 100%.

We all need to realise how we got from where music used to be, say 1940s just to pick a date out of the air, to where we are now.

Without the Beatles leading the way in so many styles and aspects of music in such a short period of time, 62 to 70, music as we know it today would be very different.

If you consider the technology available then, even in a pro studio, would have been light years behind what even the average bedroom setup has now, you can only marvel at the inventiveness of the Beatles in writing and recording a body of work that even the most hard core of modernist musicians would agree is stunning in its quality and diversity.

Musical style or genre? the Beatles invented most of it. Sure it has moved on but they were the flag bearers and originators.

Respect, and this from a heavy rock prog rock addict.
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I don't knock any kind of music, especially from a playing standpoint. I have incredible respect for drummers who can play 164th note fills all over the drums and play complex poly-rhythmic stuff. Personally, that's so not for me, but I wouldn't knock it.

I can see where a lot of older musicians, especially jazz musicians come from. So much music, not just jazz, is about feeling good. Dancing or moving and grooving and just having a good feel to it. That's not to say metal doesn't feel good for certain people, but you have to see it from their point of view as well. That's why the snobbery on their behalf, I'd imagine.

It's like when someone who plays any kind of live music on an instrument, or a talented singer knocks electronic music or hip-hop. Is one style better or harder than the other? Does it matter? No, and no. But someone who has been polishing their skill or working hard to make their music sound and feel good over a long number of years, and then a new style bursts onto the scene like that, that almost completely goes against everything they did and played and loved for so long, it can be difficult to swallow.
 
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?uesto said:
Is one style better or harder than the other? Does it matter? No, and no.
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Great stuff, ?uesto, very well thought out and said. My only qualification is this little quote.

I believe some music IS objectively better than others, in the same way as a healthy balanced meal is better than a McDonald's burger with it's deep frying, saccharine buns and mean amounts of usually limp lettuce.

The difference is focus, care and connectedness - how connected the artist is with the music. Take musak, for example. We can't say this is as "good" as, say, Coltrane or Tchaikovsky. We can say that it is more unobtrusive as background music (seemingly) designed to soothe the savage beast. That's it.

Or the plastic, autotune, sequenced, formulaic pop that's being made in what are essentially music factories churning out cheap, efficient product. Of course, studio "factories" have a long history, but the business side has been refined over the years. Piece by piece, elements of soulfulness, passion and sincerity have been removed to streamline the process.

Compare this to the kind of magical experience a great band can provide, taking you to another place for a while, and sometimes leaving impressions that inspire for a lifetime.

Another comparison - organic eggs from free range birds eating standard chicken food and cage eggs produced by tortured animals, stuffed with hormones and chemicals. The soul - the kindness, decency, empathy and healthfulness - has been stripped out for the sake of profit and competitiveness.

Sorry, I've laboured the point ... but it's less aimed at you (who I'm sure already got my point by para #2) than trying to get these thoughts into words to make sense of it myself.

My natural inclination has always been towards the "everything has its own merit" POV, but it's just a broadbrush formula with plenty of exceptions.

// End rabbiting on //
 
mo2vation said:
Me, life seriously? I'm a clownboy smarty pants. So, uh, no. Not at all.

Do you always paint subjects with such wide brushes? Is there just black and white in your world?

-Ken
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You don't know my life, holmes....

No, to me the world is grey and perfectly imperfect.

I'm not trying to derail this thread, but I made a comment about metal and this guy made an ad hominem comment to me.

Please....carry on....

I've been listening to metal since its beginnings. I've came and saw and moved on.
 
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That's an interesting perspective, Polly. But objectively better? I don't know if there's that much you can say about music that's truly objective besides if the musicians are tight ("correct" timing), instruments and vocals that are in tune ("correct pitch)" and things like the ability to play multiple styles well and technical ability. Is there anything that makes Coltrane or Miles objectively better than Katy Perry outside of one's own perspective and subjective personal experience/opinions? I like arty, (relatively) low budget movies with deep ideas, but I also dig big stupid popcorn flicks.
 
Pollyanna said:
Great stuff, ?uesto, very well thought out and said. My only qualification is this little quote.

I believe some music IS objectively better than others, in the same way as a healthy balanced meal is better than a McDonald's burger with it's deep frying, saccharine buns and mean amounts of usually limp lettuce.

The difference is focus, care and connectedness - how connected the artist is with the music. Take musak, for example. We can't say this is as "good" as, say, Coltrane or Tchaikovsky. We can say that it is more unobtrusive as background music (seemingly) designed to soothe the savage beast. That's it.

Or the plastic, autotune, sequenced, formulaic pop that's being made in what are essentially music factories churning out cheap, efficient product. Of course, studio "factories" have a long history, but the business side has been refined over the years. Piece by piece, elements of soulfulness, passion and sincerity have been removed to streamline the process.

Compare this to the kind of magical experience a great band can provide, taking you to another place for a while, and sometimes leaving impressions that inspire for a lifetime.

Another comparison - organic eggs from free range birds eating standard chicken food and cage eggs produced by tortured animals, stuffed with hormones and chemicals. The soul - the kindness, decency, empathy and healthfulness - has been stripped out for the sake of profit and competitiveness.

Sorry, I've laboured the point ... but it's less aimed at you (who I'm sure already got my point by para #2) than trying to get these thoughts into words to make sense of it myself.

My natural inclination has always been towards the "everything has its own merit" POV, but it's just a broadbrush formula with plenty of exceptions.

// End rabbiting on //
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werd

:)

Heirloom tomatoes. 'nuff said.


About 8 or 10 years ago, a huge client of mine - the principal contact, learned I was a drummer. He was a drummer, too. Of some renown, now working at a very huge consumer electronics firm that I was about to close to a huge multi-year deal.

During the course of the deal, we often talked about music. Me, as you know, I'm a prog guy, a rock guy, a metal guy. He spent the late 60's and 70's as the white drummer in many funk and R&B horn bands.

Horn bands. About the furthest from anything I've ever been into.

He pulled me aside as we were about to sign, he said, "you may not talk to me again until you get two records: Big Swing Face and Tower Of Power live in Oakland.

I thought he was joking - as this guy would go on and on about Buddy Rich and the funkitude of TOP. To me, Buddy was the clown with the kleenex box on the Johnny Carson show. Some guy with tinny white coated heads who wore a tie to play.

So to close this deal, I friggen got these CD's.

O
M
G

Big Swing Face. Lets just start there. I mean wow, wow, wow. Put aside a whole generation of 70's high school bands lifted that Norwegian Wood arrangement (I know we did).... Monitor theme... wow. Can anybody listen to Love for Sale and not want to just jump up and down? Even the crowd at the Chez club was speechless. New Blues... with the muted trumpets and woodwinds at the start, moving into blast mode for the 'chorus' and main themes... only to put back in the mutes to take this tune in for a quiet landing. Just unreal. ALL LIVE!!!! It is far and away my favorite live recording ever. EVER. The nuance, the swing, the balls out brashness of Buddy just driving the band like a rental, and all of those guys delivering large. Its remarkable. Something we'll never see again. A jewel. A few mics, a great room, a big band at their absolute peak, Buddy grunting and shouting as he played, the guys responding... the energy. I'm racing now just thinking about it. Gawd I wish I was there those 4 nights.

TOP in Oakland. Soul Vaccination, Funkifize, Bump City... all of that. The horn work, how David is working with the horns and the melodies.... its just so excellent. The sweet pads, the patterns in lock step. Doc! Rocco that animal! The staccato hair on fire tongue and breath work at the end of Finkfize. Woof!

I got the two CD's... burned into them. I mean night and day. He and I went to dinner at CES, and we talked for hours about them. We went out to his Porche and drove the strip from MGM to Stratosphere and back - top down, blasting.

Its one of the best nights of my life.

There is much to be learned and enjoyed from styles that are not your own.

Seeing Neil play Love for Sale on the Letterman Drum Solo Week made me smile ear to ear.

I got the deal.

My buddy, this drummer died a few years ago. The gift of these two records, especially Big Swing Face will live with me forever.

-K
 
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Personally I dont understand the cymbals, but I see how a lot of drums is useful. The way i have always viewed my dream setup (8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18) is in pairs of three (8, 10, 12) (10, 12, 14) (14, 16, 18) Basically a high, medium, and low pitched 5 piece, for variety and to compliment the guitars

But you know, the first time I heard dave lombardo go down 7 toms in a row in altar or sacrifice all I played for a month was straight 16th roll fills!
 
_Leviathan_ said:
That's an interesting perspective, Polly. But objectively better? I don't know if there's that much you can say about music that's truly objective besides if the musicians are tight ("correct" timing), instruments and vocals that are in tune ("correct pitch)" and things like the ability to play multiple styles well and technical ability. Is there anything that makes Coltrane or Miles objectively better than Katy Perry outside of one's own perspective and subjective personal experience/opinions? I like arty, (relatively) low budget movies with deep ideas, but I also dig big stupid popcorn flicks.
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I also enjoy a bit of trash, Leviathan. I enjoy vampire chick lit (better than Twilight, tho!).

I'm inclined to go back to the food analogy - is an apple better food than fairy floss? (US translation: candy floss). Factory-produced smush vs arguably nature's healthiest food.

Some kids will say the FF is better. Most older people will choose the apple. Some will say that apples are better unless they're wandering around at a fair. If you're very poor an apple is a far superior investment 99 times out of 100.

I agree that everything has its place and function. For something to be inferior doesn't render it invalid.

Still, I don't think the "all things are equal" approach is as useful to us in real life (eg. gigging, finding likeminded musicians at your level etc) as discriminating taste ... it opens the door to analysis and growth (why did x phrase work better than Y phrase etc).

The musical equality attitude is a good qualifier to remind us to keep an open mind, but that's about it IMO
 
Deathmetalconga said:
I love hating on The Beatles. And Led Zeppelin. And anything else overrated, overplayed and overexposed. Keeps me regular.
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And you wonder why other drummers look down on Metal Drummers? Because of this kind of ignorance. Every "Death Metal Drummer I meet has this same attitude.. Sad really..
 
mo2vation said:
werd

:)

Heirloom tomatoes. 'nuff said.
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Funny thing, Ken, at first I thought you'd forgotten the "i" :) Then I looked it up ...

Nice tales of Buddy and TOP. I've long enjoyed grazing fairly widely in music. It was strange to find myself in mid life rejecting new music, like every other generation had done before it.

Still, there was a young guy, a regular here named Frost who was a metalhead, but also very keen on jazz. Haven't seen him at DW for a while. We chatted by PM and he suggested a doom metal track to me - And I Am Suffering by Virgin Black.

O
M
G

:)

Fabulous, beautiful music. Immediately went into my YouTube Favourites.

What we all need to broaden is someone who understands what we're looking for, and then recommending music in our most dissed genres that has those qualities, spirit, vibe, whatever.


flicky said:
And you wonder why other drummers look down on Metal Drummers? Because of this kind of ignorance. Every "Death Metal Drummer I meet has this same attitude.. Sad really..
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LOL - DMC hates metal ... his username is one of his little jokes.

Sadly, he has failed to see the light when it comes to some acts. We can only pray to Steve Godd to save his musical soul :)
 
LOL - DMC hates metal ... his username is one of his little jokes.

Sadly, he has failed to see the light when it comes to some acts. We can only pray to Steve Godd to save his musical soul :)
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That's false advertising! LOL!
 
Pollyanna said:
LOL - DMC hates metal ... his username is one of his little jokes.

Sadly, he has failed to see the light when it comes to some acts. We can only pray to Steve Godd to save his musical soul :)
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Actually, I like Metal quite a bit and I have listened to it since my teen years. I listened to Venom, Motorhead, Rainbow, Mercyful Fate, Slayer, Bitches Sin, Black Sabbath, Ozzy and others when they were new.

I just think it's a goofy genre with all the tattoos, ersatz Satanism, spikes, sub-sub-sub-sub genres and bad odors. At least Butt Rock doesn't take itself so seriously.
 
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