An attempt at a policy change here

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I have read many previous posts by Andy and he seems like a really decent guy, very knowledgeable about drums and drumming and is a positive contributor to this forum.

He doesn't seem half as upset as everyone else so just create a sub-forum for manufacturers and get on with it.
 
The overall tone of most of the commenters to this thread has been "as long as someone is an established member of the community and doesn't overdo it, a little self-promotion is perfectly acceptable". I wholeheartedly agree with this position.

Andy is and has always been a respected member of the community. For example, I see him post all the time when someone asks a question that has to do with drum construction, like "I'm building my first stave snare, what type of bearing edge should I put on it". Andy's knowledge of this subject is very comprehensive, since he has personal experience in testing a variety of materials, shell construction methods, bearing edges, etc. He is always very polite and for the most part never even mentions that he is a custom drum maker. It's not like he name drops and says: "you should always do it this way GURU and you can take my GURU word for it because I own a company that makes drums and GURU GURU GURU". I have never once in all of the thousands of post that I have read by Andy thought to myself "crap, there's that Guru guy shoving his brand in my face...".

I don't think that a separate "commercial" sub section is necessary, since the moderators and even the users do a pretty good job of letting the drive-by marketers know that they are not welcome. If we did create a "commercial" section, then I ask you this: would you then support making anyone who asks for feedback on any video that they have posted online post into this space? Those people may or may not make money of their Youtube channel and sometimes it is obvious which ones are looking for hits instead of feedback.

If I post a video of my band playing at a cool venue that we've never played before, or playing a new song that we just wrote, do I have to post it in this new "commercial" area? I have seen hundreds of users here all do exactly the same thing. Smells like marketing to me.

What about the people asking for help in setting up a teaching gig in their area? Aren't they marketing themselves?

Bermuda himself is constantly mentioning Ludwig, Evans, etc in his posts. He has an endorser relationship with these companies (goods and services if not monetary) and therefore indirectly benefits from every mention of these products. Should we shove him into the "commercial" category as well?

Let's call this one a good discussion starter, and let the moderators do their thing that they have done so well for a long time. I trust them to keep the board usable and the high standards that they have set so far have made checking out this board a really fun and useful part of my day for years now.
 
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the issue i have with a sub forum for manufacturers is we wont get the cool pics from Andy or some of the other manufacturers we like when they post them. it will mostly be ignored after a while because of the piles of spam it will generate. i dont go to the classified section unless im in the market for something so i wont go to a manufacturers sub-forum because im not buying any new drums. it was nice seeing stuff posted where it was, my gear/playing sections or whatever. i search "New Posts" and look at who the latest is from and decide to go in from there. if i see in a sub forum those crazy unreadable names or iphone spam i wont go in and in turn, miss out on my favorite stuff.
 
keep it simple said:
Not the case. A rational decision based on many factors, not least of all, a lack of available time to defend my position, & feeling the need to censor myself. Quite a relief actually.
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You don't need to defend yourself or censor. You didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't be apologizing or worrying about something like this.

I find that reasoning a bit odd, though. Now it's like you have to be extra careful what you say and not mention something you're passionate about. [REDACTED]Drum Works.
 
BradGunnerSGT said:
I don't think that a separate "commercial" sub section is necessary, since the moderators and even the users do a pretty good job of letting the drive-by marketers know that they are not welcome. If we did create a "commercial" section, then I ask you this: would you then support making anyone who asks for feedback on any video that they have posted online post into this space? Those people may or may not make money of their Youtube channel and sometimes it is obvious which ones are looking for hits instead of feedback.

If I post a video of my band playing at a cool venue that we've never played before, or playing a new song that we just wrote, do I have to post it in this new "commercial" area? I have seen hundreds of users here all do exactly the same thing. Smells like marketing to me.

What about the people asking for help in setting up a teaching gig in their area? Aren't they marketing themselves?
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If this is in response to my post - allow me to clear up my view. I reject any notion of regulation that would allow the slippery slope you so mention... I am simply unopposed to a new sub-forum, though I agree it's unnecessary. Playing devil's advocate, I could see how it could be neat for organizational purposes (there is a forum to find local teachers already). To quote myself, the implementation of such a sub-forum "...shall not replace, modify, or change any way such companies are currently involved in the normal gear forums. I see NO REASON for anything to change."
I was simply regarding how it is a common practice - might I mention Head-Fi again. There's a premium sponsor section - though I never see it used, nor have I ever read it (hence my believe to why such actions could be neat but probably aren't necessary). Heir Audio - the old management since moved to the all new Noble Audio company (shameless transparent plugs inbound - don't ban me, bro!), has active members - both the owner and another representative who are there to answer any questions from any member. The love for their work is incredible and unmatched. Their professional attitudes and community involvement, not to mention their quality of product, are one of the main reasons I now use their products. Soon I will be purchasing Bottlehead, and Audio-GD products for the exact same reasons. Incredible products all devolved with a passionate community in a transparent and wonderful way. And, yet again, Guru will hopefully join the list one day, funds permitting.
Our modern world, led by the ease of commercial super-giants to gain audience through the internet, has led to the shut down of much of the mom and pop store experience, this is the next greatest thing we have. Allow me to also plug Tony at cymbalsonly.com, and my local store - Tommy's Drum Shop. Tell me if I'm over the top! Bless and protect our internet freedoms!

Dr_Watso said:
You don't need to defend yourself or censor. You didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't be apologizing or worrying about something like this.

I find that reasoning a bit odd, though. Now it's like you have to be extra careful what you say and not mention something you're passionate about. [REDACTED]Drum Works.
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AMEN!
 
I read the first 25 posts in this thread and I scanned the rest.
I am stunned.
I am not angry, I am just stunned and numb.
I can't believe what has transpired.
 
shemp said:
It is a place for me to learn....I have learned from you as a matter of fact. good stuff...but it is also a place for me to state my opinion....and I did...and the marketing *was* happening...
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This forum is a great place to learn about drums, drumming and drummers, there's no other drum forum like it, this forum IS the best...

Now, is everything always black or white? No it isn't, there's the whole shade of greys in between, it's never really white and it's never really black...

So shemp, you're here to learn? While you're entirely entitled to your opinion which is based upon your own judgement, I would like to make some suggestions/clarifications of the "alleged" marketing you're referring to...

I, like many others here, discovered Guru drums within this forum, but the first thing I noticed about Andy's threads? He was someone proud of his project, he loved it so much, he wanted to share it with his drummer friends, I'm not sure you have read all the threads regarding Guru drums, it's no more than sharing you pride and joy on a public forum and discussing the eventual design and explaining the process of the construction.

Indeed, Andy's passion can be found on numerous threads in which he gives his enormous knowledge about drums without ever mentioning the name Guru, this has enable me to learn so much about drums in general, from the technical side of drum construction, what such and such do and what and what do to a drum, the difference between resonance and sustain, the effect of shell thickness, etc... and this info is also freely available in many of the Guru threads, to our benefit if I may say so, I have become more knowledgeable about drums since I've read Andy's posts, in Guru and non-Guru threads.

I have also met Andy several times now, and to say he's very enthusiastic about drum making is an understatement, Andy lives the drums day in day out, it's only normal it wants to share it here on DW, among drummers, it's not malicious, it's not marketing, it's not promoting a brand, it's only love, pure and simple, like I said earlier, it's never black or white.

Now I have tried several times some Guru drums... and I'm going to get one one of these days, but it's not because of what Andy said about them, it's because I played them and I do trust my ears...

I'm not looking or trying to change your mind shemp, I just want you to see it as I see it, you have your opinion and I have mine.

I do hope to see some Guru's threads in the future...
 
As a woodworker, I truly appreciate the craftsmanship and artistry that goes into Guru drums, and I love Andy's passion.

Andy's passion and multiple posts clearly translated into quite a bit of free marketing for Guru. I assumed it wasn't against the forum rules, and I'm surprised Andy made the decision to change his posting based on Shemps comments. Surprised, because I actually assumed many of his posts were part of a clever and creative a marketing campaign. Didn't bother me at all. The entire thread on Remo's new heads where their rep is describing why they are "better" than Aquarian heads is free marketing too, and they can afford to advertise. Guru can't, so pics and updates from Andy seemed like great start.

Hats off to Andy for his integrity. I had assumed wrong.

That said, if it isn't against the rules and you guys all like the Guru info, I don't see a problem. Just ask Andy for updates. That way he won't feel like he's pushing product, which clearly isn't what he wants to do. In fact, I bet he was worried about guys like me who thought his posts were partly marketing in addition to enthusiasm.

So stop whining about Shemp expressing his opinion and help Andy out. Ask for updates. If you do that, he's not marketing, he's sharing, and given how much he loves those drums, he may explode if he doesn't have this place as an outlet.
 
Cheers David, though I believe bigamy is illegal :)

I was there. I saw Andy's post asking for help with website design. It was a legitimate request - he definitely needs help!

I saw Shemp's reply. I'd had a wee smokey just beforehand and not mentally primed to explain to Shemp why Andy's post was legit. So I decided to delay my response and see what people said.

Bit of a blunder in hindsight lol

What I'm seeing is a lot of excitement from people who don't understand the vibe of what went down. Shemp just thought he was witnessing unethical behaviour and spoke up ... nothing more.

That he can't back down after being advised of his error is understandable - conservatives are not known for admitting mistakes heehee
 
I think the overall message here is:

If Andy stops posting about [REDACTED] Drums, the terrorists win.

Andy, you don't want the terrorists to win, do you?
 
Anon La Ply said:
Cheers David, though I believe bigamy is illegal :)

I was there. I saw Andy's post asking for help with website design. It was a legitimate request - he definitely needs help!

I saw Shemp's reply. I'd had a wee smokey just beforehand and not mentally primed to explain to Shemp why Andy's post was legit. So I decided to delay my response and see what people said.

Bit of a blunder in hindsight lol

What I'm seeing is a lot of excitement from people who don't understand the vibe of what went down. Shemp just thought he was witnessing unethical behaviour and spoke up ... nothing more.

That he can't back down after being advised of his error is understandable - conservatives are not known for admitting mistakes heehee
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Grea (if I can be so bold as to call you that), you have been on fire. Like dmacc, I literally burst out laughing reading your other post.

I read the offending post before it was deleted, but reserved comment as I didn't think it was required. I was trying to not comment on this thread.

Mr. New Guy jumped the gun. Anyone who has been around (or lurked as long as I have) knows the rare stuff of which Andy is made. The phrase "thinly veiled marking" was so far off base, it is really incomprehensible to anyone who has been around the forum. It *might* seem to make sense to a overzealous newbie.... but holy cow ....

Andy has always be very careful to be the drummer first and be careful of not bashing other brands. Indeed, he has also been open with the good, the bad, and the ugly with what Guru has developing. All of his info is quite interested to most of us ... and his attitude has always been appreciated.

New forum group, new Andy ID, whatever. Let's not chase away one of the best resources DW has .... man alive ....

(sorry for the long post ... Canadian + curling + beer tonight .... )

peace,
radman
 
IDDrummer said:
I'm going to jump in just one more time.

I think most of us here, but not all, disagree with Shemp's opinion. I disagree. He's OK with that. However...

We are also blaming him for Andy no longer posting Guru stuff. His opinion WAS the impetus, but it was not his decision, it was Andy's. As much as we'd like to, we really can't blame him for Andy's choice.

Do I wish Shemp had simply kept his opinion to himself? You bet your ass. Do I think he made a mountain out of a molehill over a technicality? Yup. Do I think he put being right before being good for the community? Uh huh.

But I do try to be fair and objective about things as much as possible, and what I keep coming back to is that it was Andy's decision.

Again, I hope that a sub-forum is instituted where we can again read about Guru (and other) drums and comment and make suggestions for websites and all that. I think it really is a wonderful benefit of being a part of this community. I hope, either way, that Andy changes his mind about posting Guru stuff.
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I see. Let the chips fall where they may. Andy's stuff is definitely some eye candy though. Would a shame to lose that.
 
Dr_Watso said:
I think the overall message here is:

If Andy stops posting about [REDACTED] Drums, the terrorists win.

Andy, you don't want the terrorists to win, do you?
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The terrorists will win unless you give up your car, wife, kids...etc.
 
I was a little skeptical of Andy when I first joined but before long I realized he is a genuine contributor to the forum, a totally nice guy and I like reading about his stuff.

And yeah I think Larry's idea is cool. It would be nice to see new and innovative ideas from any of the drum companies.
 
Shemp. You certainly had an opinion and certainly used your right to express it, but if you don't mind me saying so: there are informed opinions and ill informed opinions. Your ill informed opinion was bordering on insulting. I think if you had been here a long time, you would not of said or even thought such thing.

This is the good and bad thing about Internet communities. It lets anyone get involved and immediately make comment about anything they like. In a real world situation, a tactful outsider would survey the lay of the land before they jumped in making comments or accusations about someone who is part of the furniture, and goes out of there way to help people.

The fact that nobody else here agreed with your opinion either means we all know better, or we are all incredibly gullible and being tricked by a marketing genius..

I've quietly read a lot of Andy's posts, right from the beginning of him talking about a new kind of drum design. It's always intrigued me and I've never once seen it as marketing, but more as someone I know mentioning how things are going and talking about something I have a mutual interest in. To me, it was a guy excited about what he was involved with, and we are all excited to have in a way been a part of it, at the very least watching something grow from just an idea.

Banning such talk will disturb the natural conversation of the community. Now we'll have to think if we are pissing anyone off before we say anything. This is the problem with blanket rules: it stops us using our discretion, which stops us thinking, which makes us stupid.. A bit like how the world is becoming in general. Sorry, grumpy man moment, but I see it everywhere.

A community is made of people, not rules. Yes, rules exist as a safeguard, but not to disrupt the natural equilibrium. Something may look very different to an outsider than to someone who has been involved with the community for a long time, even as someone who is more an observer, like myself.

So, I just feel if you had done a little research first on Andy you may not have come to the conclusion that caused you to express what is a false accusation, and therefore an ill informed opinion.

As a regular here, and a community can't exist without regulars, I'd love to see things how they were.
 
Honestly, it's hilarious to me that Guru, the least-obvious (or specifically designed) marketing on the forum, was the company that was called out here. Cymbalise (and I love ya, Cymbalise! just using an example) are relatively new and are very often advertising UFiP cymbals (of course, offering helpful advice and insight as well). Why not call them out?

Andy, I'll send you my thoughts on the new website by PM :)
 
The classified section, is for somebody specifically selling gear. I think there is a need for another section so people can discuss anything related to their business venture. That way any thread in that section can be avoided if desired. Even if a person hits the new posts button, the sub-forum is still listed and can be avoided. Everyone wins. Either that or keep things as they are and make it clearly understood that anything anyone says about their drumming products is OK.

It's kind of like that now, but not really, that's why we're here now. It's a gray area, that is sort of under a rule, but that rule is not rigorously enforced. I would like some official clarification. Is talking about one's products technically not allowed under the current system?
 
larryace said:
Either that or keep things as they are and make it clearly understood that anything anyone says about their drumming products is OK.

It's kind of like that now, but not really, that's why we're here now. It's a gray area, that is sort of under a rule, but that rule is not rigorously enforced. I would like some official clarification. Is talking about one's products technically not allowed under the current system?
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This is what I was saying above. I feel the gray area is for our discretion as a community. We can tell when someone is here just to peddle their products, and when they are not. If enough of us felt someone was here to do that, we could act on it. It is usually pretty obvious.

I think trying to fit everything into a rule would be difficult. A community of people is a complex thing; so much is based on feel, instinct and experience.

Almost all of us want things as they were and could see no problem with it, surely that says it all?
 
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