Providing the time

Caz

Senior Member
Hi all,

I'm mostly asking this from the perspective of playing with jazz combos and big bands... but this really applies to all genres. You know the feeling when you're playing with a really strong rhythm section, or just a really strong band, where everyone has great time and you don't really need to 'provide' anything, it's just there: "the time is in the room" as I've heard people here say. You can play around, they can play around, everything's great. Then there's the feeling where you're playing with people who don't have great time.. the pianist is trying to fill out all the spaces when comping, the bassist is trying to be cool by playing around all over the place but doesn't just contribute towards keeping the time, the soloist is going crazy over the top of it all, so it all comes down to the drums.. In these situations I've noticed I just revert to playing as simple and clear as possible - swing on the ride, bass drum four to the floor, hi hat 2 & 4, just so there's something locking it all together. But even then, it can feel like a real struggle trying to keep the tempo.. you're trying to keep something (anything!) consistent, and you lose the clarity of whether the tempo is going up or down because everyone's pushing or pulling in different directions. Dynamics also comes into it - you play louder to reassert the time but maybe this encourages others to get louder, or you play quieter to encourage others to quieten down and listen to each other, but that doesn't always work either.

What I don't want to do is be the person who complains and thinks it's everyone else's fault. I want to play and make music with everyone, and have the control to *always* keep the tempo and pull things together no matter how experienced or inexperienced the rest of the group is. Do some of the more experienced drummers out here have any advice for how to get control in this kind of situation and how to lock people in? To put it in perspective, when I play with really good musicians they'll sometimes notice things in my playing - like dragging between transitions into bass solos, rushing/dragging when doing extended fills etc, so it's not like I've got perfect time in the first place. I try address this stuff by practicing with a metronome, practicing subdivisions, transcribing and playing with recordings of drummers who can drive bands well (Buddy Rich, Philly Joe etc), recently I've been getting into konokol which I'm hoping will help to solidify my internal time. Is there any more I can do to solidify things and provide great time with ensembles?

Thanks,
Caroline
 
Hi all,

I'm mostly asking this from the perspective of playing with jazz combos and big bands... but this really applies to all genres. You know the feeling when you're playing with a really strong rhythm section, or just a really strong band, where everyone has great time and you don't really need to 'provide' anything, it's just there: "the time is in the room" as I've heard people here say. You can play around, they can play around, everything's great. Then there's the feeling where you're playing with people who don't have great time.. the pianist is trying to fill out all the spaces when comping, the bassist is trying to be cool by playing around all over the place but doesn't just contribute towards keeping the time, the soloist is going crazy over the top of it all, so it all comes down to the drums.. In these situations I've noticed I just revert to playing as simple and clear as possible - swing on the ride, bass drum four to the floor, hi hat 2 & 4, just so there's something locking it all together. But even then, it can feel like a real struggle trying to keep the tempo.. you're trying to keep something (anything!) consistent, and you lose the clarity of whether the tempo is going up or down because everyone's pushing or pulling in different directions. Dynamics also comes into it - you play louder to reassert the time but maybe this encourages others to get louder, or you play quieter to encourage others to quieten down and listen to each other, but that doesn't always work either.

What I don't want to do is be the person who complains and thinks it's everyone else's fault. I want to play and make music with everyone, and have the control to *always* keep the tempo and pull things together no matter how experienced or inexperienced the rest of the group is. Do some of the more experienced drummers out here have any advice for how to get control in this kind of situation and how to lock people in? To put it in perspective, when I play with really good musicians they'll sometimes notice things in my playing - like dragging between transitions into bass solos, rushing/dragging when doing extended fills etc, so it's not like I've got perfect time in the first place. I try address this stuff by practicing with a metronome, practicing subdivisions, transcribing and playing with recordings of drummers who can drive bands well (Buddy Rich, Philly Joe etc), recently I've been getting into konokol which I'm hoping will help to solidify my internal time. Is there any more I can do to solidify things and provide great time with ensembles?

Thanks,
Caroline

If you can zero in on the guy with the best time in the group and lock in with him, concentrate on making the groove happen with that guy. For me, it's not always the bass player; I tend to lock in a bit more with rhythm guitarists and piano players in rock situations and just try to leave a strong kick pattern for the bass player to deal with. In jazz I do tend to lock in a bunch more with the bass player, who's usually the best timekeeper in that situation.

If you have players who are not badly off time, a good partnership with the guy who is will bring them in line. If you have players who are badly off time, and the band dynamic permits, bring it up with them in a constructive way. (It goes without saying that before you fling any stones, your time should be pretty unassailable.)

If you're a sideman dealing with a fellow sideman whose time is suspect, get the bandleader involved, while being conscious of any internal dynamics (maybe you're the new guy and he's been working with this guitarist for 15 years).

It comes down to who your timekeeping allies are, and what your relationship with the band is. But in the end, we should all be keeping time together, IMO.
 
Try to record your sessions.

You then have the luxury of an autopsy to see where it went right or wrong...that gives you the feedback you need to adjust or open discussions.

...isn't just for negative feedback mind you...but recognizing when something went well and sharing it...along with the hard evidence, it is as powerful as identifying problems and working to stamp 'em out in the quest for improvement.
 
I'm sure everyone's mileage may vary, but I've found in the course of hundreds of open mics and jams that it's often easier to follow the weakest link so that at least everything sounds together if not on "perfect time". The better musicians in the room will have an easier time of adapting than trying to make the less seasoned musicians follow around the guys who know their stuff and have an awesome sense of time.

I hate hate hate playing with guys who think it's the drummer's "job" to keep time and all they have to do is screw around and play notes following you. I miss anthony sometimes here... He used to have the perfect analogy of everyone riding the same musical wave, and even likened what we're talking about now as more of a "booze cruise"! Ha!
 
unfortunately, being a jazz, or classically trained drummer/percussionist means we are to have 'big ears", which definitely works against us. i will let the time move around within reason, but if you're in damage control mode, where the time is all over the place, i have to force myself to stop listening. it's nigh impossible, but i'll stop listening, and lay down "the law", in the simplest terms possible. i've actually had to whip out the metronome, and tell these guys, "you better follow me, 'cause i'm following the metronome!" frustrating as hell, and fortunately, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. and as one here said, record, record, record. have the band listen to the playback. getting stuck with people with bad time sucks the joy right out of it. keeping time is the responsibility of everyone in the band.
 
Glad I brought this up, there are some really good points here! Recording is something I'd do with an actual band, and we'd be more open to dialogue about these things too. I'm mostly thinking in a more general sense.. I'm doing a lot of playing with completely new and one-off ensembles just now, and sometimes the other musicians are great and I'm the weakest link, and sometimes these issues arise where it comes down to me to just try to hold things together.

The comment about locking in with whoever has the best time is a really good point - I do that a lot actually, funnily enough I've found this can often be a horn player soloist. Maybe because they have the benefits of playing along with endless Aebersold backing tracks with good rhythm sections, they can often have a good idea of when the rhythm section are pushing/dragging, even if the rhythm section don't. Dr_Watso, you kind of said the opposite thing where you would play with whoever was the weakest link to pull them up - I can't help thinking that would lead to a disaster, but I'll keep this in mind and give it a try.. if anything, looking like you're concentrating on that person and pushing them may encourage them to concentrate more instead of wandering off on auto-pilot.

Boltzmann.. yeah I completely know what you mean about damage control - and it's so hard to have to block everyone out and just drive on relentlessly (I have to do that with big bands sometimes), it feels really like you're literally pulling the entire band up a hill and is so uncomfortable.. it's not fun and it doesn't feel like you're playing with people, but sometimes is necessary. But these scenarios are always going to happen, the more I go out and play with new people I can tell that this isn't going to change, so I need to get more experience in going into damage control mode... Buddy Rich and Philly Joe wouldn't let anyone slip behind, and they must have learned at some point how to deal with this stuff. This is basically where I'm at just now, learning how to deal with the role of damage control - it's quite a specific thing and I'm finding it pretty hard to be that objective person who knows where the time 'should be' and keeps it in that place when others are drifting off on autopilot... I don't want to be the one who throws down the sticks and complains that people aren't pulling their weight, or pulls out the metronome, but ideally would like to be experienced enough to know when it's happening and able to straighten it out.

Also strangely, there are times when I've had this struggle the whole way through big band tunes and it feels so uncomfortable being ahead of everyone, then at the end the band has commented that it felt great and tempo felt just right (inside I'm crying...!!).. and it really makes you wonder if this is where it should always be - block everyone out and drive on.. I really appreciate hearing other drummers views and experience with this.
 
As far as getting everyone to lock in, IMO, they have to trust the drummers quarter note. They have to want to follow the drummer because the drummers time feels so good. So basically the drummer must prove to the others that their time feel/meter is friggin awesome. That can't happen if the drummer follows anyone.

I think it's the drummers responsibility to set, not follow the meter. Everyone can come back to the drummer, but when the drummer adjusts to others, generally speaking, the drummer isn't doing his/her job. Plus it just plain sounds bad. When others adjust to the drummer, it's not very noticeable at all compared to the alternative.

The drummer shouldn't be a moving target. The drummer needs to be as steady as a second hand on a clock.
 
Over the decades I've noticed that when the time is great the bass player often gets the credit and when the time is bad the drummer is blamed!
 
Over the decades I've noticed that when the time is great the bass player often gets the credit and when the time is bad the drummer is blamed!

This makes me recall a time when I was playing with a jam session. All the jammers were older folks, and played some old swing stuff, very old rock, and even a few old school country tunes. Waltz or 3/4 time was called out, and for God knows what reason, the bassist began playing in 4/4 time.

I couldn't just play 3/4 with him bee-bopping alone, so I played in 4/4 with him. None of the guys on stage said anything about it, but afterward, a lady approached me and said "That was supposed to be a waltz!"
 
Over the decades I've noticed that when the time is great the bass player often gets the credit and when the time is bad the drummer is blamed!

Haha this is so true!

Larryace, good to hear from you. When in (this newly termed..) 'damage control' mode I tend to naturally simplify things to only quarter notes and try to make those really clear.. at which point people usually start to take some notice and pay more attention - as it's quite a clear signal that I'm trying to impose some control over things. I don't know if that's an ideal thing to do, it doesn't feel particularly tasteful - I'm curious as to what others here do in these scenarios with new musicians. This is mostly in a jazz combo setting - where everyone is actively trying to interact and complement each other's phrases etc. It's not ideal to ignore the band and drive on regardless, and that should probably only be done if people are really disregarding the tempo and need reigned back in. When the musicians have good time, I'm comfortable that the tempo is already well established and am happy to play around and interact more. This is definitely more fun than ignoring the band and driving on - and I find that very hard to do because I generally am listening to what the others are playing and trying to complement that.
 
Simplifying things is a pretty good tactic, as long as it doesn't drag or rush. I wouldn't say to ignore the band, it's more like I influence the band to stay with me, because steady meter is the goal. The drums can be very authoritative when they need to be, but exerting dominance isn't the best way either...it's a fine line between laying it down and not being a Nazi about it. It's somewhere in the middle. I think if the drummer has an unmistakeable groove to his playing, it makes it easy for the others. OTOH, if the drummer is not quite sure of the meter/tempo, that's when others may try and take control of the feel. Which can be OK, if the person trying to take control is locked in to the groove. Basically too many cooks spoil the broth though.

In my trio, the leader starts every song except 2. So he sets the tempo. Just last Saturday, he set the tempo on this one song just a little slow. I held it exactly where he started it for a few minutes. He then sauntered back to me and told me I was dragging, which I knew the song was. But that's where he set it. Not only that, but he rocks his knee joint around, so I have a visual body language thing as a "confirmation" of how he is feeling the tempo like that tonight. So I brought it up to where it needed to be and everything was peaches.

I'm not the kind to say..."well you started it that slow". I know it in my head and that's good enough for me. That hardly ever happens when he says I'm dragging. Usually he knows he started a bit draggy and asks me to speed it up. But he can blame me if he wants. It's such a pleasure playing with him that I can absorb that. At the end of the day, he knows I will hold it wherever he starts it at. Sometimes it's hard when I know the song would move along nicer a tad faster, but he's the boss of the tempo. I however am the boss of the meter. Luckily our individual meters are naturally aligned with each other, so that part is easy. His time is the best of any musician I know. That's because he actually practices to a metronome. A guitarist! That's crazy!

In my 6 piece, I have the bands complete confidence in the time feel department. They know that my time is more developed than anyone in the band, and they follow my lead there. That's a nice feeling to be trusted like that. And it makes it easy for them. They can relax. One less thing to think about. I got the tempo and meter covered.
 
Just an update on this.. I've been finding that with a strong bassist none of this stuff really matters, it's not so easy to get swayed by rogue horn players, and if they've got good time then great.. we can play together. I'm quite lucky to have some great bass players to play with just now, in fact I've been systematically eliminating myself from any scenario that involves bad bass players.. Life's just too short! There's one though, who's a good bassist... but he plays so far behind the beat, every beat - and I just don't know what to do with it. I've been providing the quarter note as strong and assertively as I find humanly possible, but I really have to block him out to try to keep things from dragging. I'm determined to find a good way around this, because he's not 'wrong', and he's not the only one out there so it's worth learning how to play with these types - some great rhythm sections have bassists who're behind the beat. I was reading John Riley's Drummer's Workshop last night and he describes exactly this scenario, and uses the example of Philly Joe and Paul Chambers - where Paul Chambers plays behind Philly Joe's beat and it sounds fantastic. So I'm now convinced that forcing the quarter note is not the best thing to do in this scenario - John Riley says this would just tighten things up and make it worse, and I agree. He recommends 'broadening' the beat so that a 'corner' of it is a bit closer to matching up with a corner of the bassist's beat. This idea of making the time as broad as possible has me a little stumped... Philly Joe definitely doesn't play behind, but I can kind of see the logic in playing a little behind where it should be to help match things up. So I guess I haven't arrived at any conclusions yet, but I just wanted to add this new insight into the mix :)

Caroline
 
Good points Caz. Agree with your strong bass player point. It's hard to get thrown off by others when you and the bass player are dovetailed. Another way to look at it is that the drummer should just put the beat wherever it goes, so everyone can choose to play a little behind, or right with, or on top. If you focus on a draggy player...it's better to kind of disregard the time of that player and try and keep it even. Sometimes on stage, when I felt the bass player is dragging or rushing, the recording didn't sound as bad as I thought it would. On stage, I was too focused on it. People will want to put their pulse in different places, so the drummer needs to keep steady and confident. They rely on us to do our thing regardless, so they can tinker with "their" feel as it relates to the beat.
 
Excellent thread ... applicable to all drummers at some point.

As Larry and alparrott mentioned, resorting to simplicity helps when other players have their own interpretations of the time.

As per the OP, to "pull things together no matter how experienced or inexperienced the rest of the group is" ... my old teacher told me many moons ago: When you hear others getting wobbly time, play things straight, but do an obvious hit the 1 to reinforce the time and get everyone back together. Usually, this will be in places where you wouldn't necessarily nail the 1, but it'll never be too out of place. The rest of the players, unless completely self indulged (and it happens) will consciously or subconsciously get it. If you have good players, the hit or hits can be subtle.

Most of the bassists I play with have very good time. Alas, this past Thursday I played with a newbie. I was forced to pretty much ignore him and lock in with the rhythm guitarist who was quite solid. Tried to make the best of a bad situation..... ugh ....

hope it helps!
radman
 
I love this video. At 11:18 Dante Roberson explains some methods to deal with folks speeding up or slowing down.
http://youtu.be/uiXE87DWaAg

It took me awhile to learn to ignore folks that are out of time and just stay where I was.

More recently, instead of trying to lock in with a bass player, I've learned to "lead" them. Concentrating on locking in often results in following. Meaning you start dragging as you're kind of waiting to see where they are. By anticipating a bit and putting it where you want it, you lay down the groove and a good bass player can feel where you are and match it.
 
I find that I can categorize most musical situations with half-decent bandmates in one of two ways: Either the band is following my time, or we're playing together to the time in the room. The latter is much better than the former.

When you're playing with musicians where everyone knows where the time is, that's the best feeling. You don't feel like you're carrying that burden. You can do what you want to do and nobody gets lost. When you feel like the rest of the band is listening to you - or even another musician like the bass player - and waiting to hear where the time is, then the music doesn't feel as good. You carry that weight.

I don't think there's any magic solution to playing with musicians who don't have solid time. That's something they need to fix, not you. That's why they're not elite musicians, and it's why the music is not going to be great. The best you can do, at least in my opinion, is to make it simple and solid. Not because it's necessarily going to make their time better, but because it will minimize the damage, as you put it. It sounds like that's what you're doing already, so I guess I'm saying I don't have anything new to offer.
 
Great thread, Caz & co.

The best you can do, at least in my opinion, is to make it simple and solid. Not because it's necessarily going to make their time better, but because it will minimize the damage, as you put it. It sounds like that's what you're doing already, so I guess I'm saying I don't have anything new to offer.

That rings true with Anthony's excellent great post (Post #8) on Earthrocker's band time thread, that is relevant here http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112006

I have non metronomic time myself but am a generally tighter player than the rest of the band, and simplifying was all that could be done. For years my playing got simpler and simpler (and from a simple base) as I tried to provide solidity. Leaving the band wasn't/isn't a good option for me in other areas so it was a matter of making do.

Being forced to play simply is good discipline and help keep the band sound clean. If the song doesn't groove it better have a vibe. So, if everyone's playing crap maybe the way to go is to add mojo and whattheheck?

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112006
 
Great thread, Caz & co.



That rings true with Anthony's excellent great post (Post #8) on Earthrocker's band time thread, that is relevant here http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112006

I have non metronomic time myself but am a generally tighter player than the rest of the band, and simplifying was all that could be done. For years my playing got simpler and simpler (and from a simple base) as I tried to provide solidity. Leaving the band wasn't/isn't a good option for me in other areas so it was a matter of making do.

Being forced to play simply is good discipline and help keep the band sound clean. If the song doesn't groove it better have a vibe. So, if everyone's playing crap maybe the way to go is to add mojo and whattheheck?

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112006

thanks for the plug Grea

I'll say it again since it bears repeating

:)

on most of the greatest records ever recorded the players are pushing and pulling all over the place....the key is that they moved together so the average ear never hears it

watch most of the best rock and jazz groups ever.....they pull each other around ...its fucking beautiful

being stubborn and feeling that your time is the only time is probably hurting the music way more than helping it

learn to flex with the emotion of the room

if these cats are doing a lot more than being emotionally elastic then I suggest you find some better people to play with
 
+1...I've always said this.The music has to breathe,so a little faster here,a little slower there,with everyone in tow,is a beautiful thing to see and hear.

I don't sit there with a metronome when I listen to music.That's not what it's about.It's about staying .....fluid,and giving an organic human performance.Not something robotic and sterile.

Steve B
 
These are all valid points, and are the type of different perspectives I need to hear from other drummers. I'm playing in more varied scenarios just now than I've been in before, and suppose my aim is to be able to bring what is needed to each one.. That doesn't necessarily mean wanting to be a nazi about the time, but at least to have a good awareness of what's going on and having the taste to know when something is or isn't needed. Thinking 'what would a more experienced drummer?' do in each scenario.

Last night I played in a theatre pit for the first time ever (just a rehearsal), and the MD said he'd noticed the pianist dragging things and thanked me for driving the tempo, so that was some positive reinforcement. The night before I played snare with on orchestra concert and the conductor is often quite far ahead of the strings, and the percussion section need to find a way to play sensitively between these timings, kind of trying to push ahead without sounding like they're apart from the strings.. I've been told off for rushing too much here before. Then tonight I'll play with the jazz combo with the bassist who sits further behind the beat than I'm used to, I need to find a way to keep things stable in that scenario without sounding forced and without letting myself drag. Then there's big band, where you sometimes need to drive things even when people are reading and playing really behind.. that can feel really uncomfortable but is becoming more natural now with experience.. plus we have a solid bassist that really helps. As soon as it's a bassist that's behind the beat though it's *hard* work!

I got a really helpful private message about dealing with the bassist behind the beat, so am going to try recording things tonight and also playing some more open/sustained sounds to make my beat sound less staccato and less like I'm forcing ahead. I don't mind things picking up or slowing down from time to time as long as it feels stable overall, but when each note is behind where you think it should be that's a tough thing to get used to.

Thanks for all these comments, I'm taking them all on board.

Caroline
 
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