The Clave Police

"Break on Through" by the Doors the other day. It was one of my favorites maybe fifteen years ago, but having study some Samba, I thought, like hey that's a dead ringer for the repinique cascara and surdo parts. I started listening to some of their other stuff with a new perspective. The organ still is overdone though.


The organ is overdone?

BTW - it is a Bossa Nova.

And what does Bossa Nova mean in Brazilian? I have read where the implied meaning is New Trend. Well at least it was a new trend back in the late 50's and early 60's

Which would make it (at this point in time) Velho Nova... which leads me to ask... What is Aldo Nova?
 
The organ is overdone?

BTW - it is a Bossa Nova.

And what does Bossa Nova mean in Brazilian? I have read where the implied meaning is New Trend. Well at least it was a new trend back in the late 50's and early 60's

Which would make it (at this point in time) Velho Nova... which leads me to ask... What is Aldo Nova?

I don't know Portuguese, but in Spanish va is a conjugation of ir, to go, so it kind of makes sense when you think about sambas being essentially marches, but with bossa you just kind of sit there and don't go anywhere. I've heard the Chevy Nova didn't sell so well in Spanish speaking countries, could be a similar situation with Portugese.
 
On youtube there are a lot of "Police"

There are the "that double bass isn't as fast as so-and-so" Police

"That jazz isn't authentic enough" Police.

"That metal isn't hard enough" Police.

Name any style, and there some self appointed trolls who go around finding a problem with just about anything posted.
 
This is church truth:

Since the music really belongs to another culture, and to the people who have put in the many years of effort it takes to master it, you don't really get to decide what's creatively acceptable within it. That's just a fact of life with any discipline-- there are standards. You have to have some knowledge of the thing as it is currently practiced for your "creative" playing to be accepted, and to have any meaning...it is their culture, so it's kind of their prerogative, isn't it? I don't worry about the unfairness of it, I just try to get it right.

But so is this:

...there are a lot of "Police"

There are the "that double bass isn't as fast as so-and-so" Police

"That jazz isn't authentic enough" Police.

"That metal isn't hard enough" Police.

Name any style, and there some self appointed trolls who go around finding a problem with just about anything posted.
 
How can there be clave police if the clave police are lacking the knowledge of what the concept of clave means?
 
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Of course you should do you best to understand and be able to play traditional stuff - but there is no Original Stuff. Everything is derivative of something else, anything not unique to a single village is gumbo. Are the Yoruba people in Africa complaining about how their traditional rhythms were bastardized in the diaspora?


No, but descendants do complain about it, especially when it is of a religious nature and specific toques (rhythms) go with specific worship traditions.

In fact, there is "original stuff", unless you discount everything after 1750 as "derivative".
 
No, but descendants do complain about it, especially when it is of a religious nature and specific toques (rhythms) go with specific worship traditions.

In fact, there is "original stuff", unless you discount everything after 1750 as "derivative".

I do think I tred a little heavy on what might be sensitive subject for some, I didn't mean to and apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. I mean know disrespect to anyone's cultural heritage.

As far as "original" I stand by that, all cultural traditions including music are based on or reactions to previous traditions, I discount everything after the first human clapped or banged stuff with other humans around a fire, maybe even before that, chimps have been known to bang out rhythms on the trunks of hollowed out trees, perhaps other hominids did before humans evolved. Yep I discount everything called original dating back at least 60,000 years. Maybe we just are using the word original differently or from different perspectives. How original something is may be a subjective call. How different from previous things does something have to be to gain the title original? Kind of like asking how big a pond has to be before it's a lake? Some would call Elvis original and some would call him derivative and both would be correct of course.
 
I do think I tred a little heavy on what might be sensitive subject for some, I didn't mean to and apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. I mean know disrespect to anyone's cultural heritage.

Yeah, it's probably best not to bring up Hollywood Mexican banditos in a discussion of Caribbean/Caribbean-American music.

As far as "original" I stand by that, all cultural traditions including music are based on or reactions to previous traditions, I discount everything after the first human clapped or banged stuff with other humans around a fire, maybe even before that, chimps have been known to bang out rhythms on the trunks of hollowed out trees, perhaps other hominids did before humans evolved. Yep I discount everything called original dating back at least 60,000 years. Maybe we just are using the word original differently or from different perspectives. How original something is may be a subjective call. How different from previous things does something have to be to gain the title original? Kind of like asking how big a pond has to be before it's a lake? Some would call Elvis original and some would call him derivative and both would be correct of course.

What does this have to do with what's being discussed? The concept of clave has been around awhile, but the OP was talking about contemporary music.
 
In every genre of every art form, there are always traditionalists who get bent out of shape when someone does something different.

Or conversely, in every genre of every art form, there are always dabblers who play pale imitations of the real thing :)

There's always someone sniping at another over some kind of territorial dispute, be it physical or intellectual (not this thread BTW).

Bananas at ten paces, gentlemen ... you may only draw when I say "ooh ooh ooh".
 
What does this have to do with what's being discussed? The concept of clave has been around awhile, but the OP was talking about contemporary music.

Perhaps it was - it seemed to me that I was following up on the idea that "police" believe they are preserving an original or traditional musical concept and I was refuting the idea of "original" - if I was mistaken then a second apology is in order for jacking the thread - two in one thread for me - not good - while I am responding let me thank your for all the great info you have put up here and on your websites - I've found it both helpful and interesting
 
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