"2nd tom position" dead tom theory

For those who use a "2 up" setup, how many seem to experience an anemic sound from the 2nd tom while you are at the throne? But when you take it off the mount and hold it...it sounds fine. I think I have a theory as to why that is. This is assuming there is no loss of tone through the mount, which sometimes occurs.

While sitting at my drumset, if I move my ears closer to the 2nd tom (a 12" tom) as I hit it... the tone returns. But when I sit back to my normal playing position and hit it... it sounds bad. Also, the further I lean back in the seat, the more the tone returns. It's only when my head is in my normal playing position that it sounds bad.

So I think it's a proximity thing. All indicators point to it being because my ears are in an acoustically "phase cancelled" zone in relation to the sound waves coming off the drum. Also, I have a wall behind me with a large blanket hanging from it to soften the sound and that might be affecting things. No other drums on my 10/12/16/22 set have this issue, just the 12" tom. I do notice it on my 13" tom on my Luds, where the 13" is in the 2nd tom position too. So it's not just 12" toms. It seems like it's any tom mounted there.

I was hoping that anyone who has experienced this...next time you are on your setkitarray, if you could try and move your ear around and notice if you have dead zones when you strike the 2nd tom. And if you do have dead zones, is there a wall right behind you? I need to set my kit up in the middle of the room and see if I still experience the dreaded anemic tom.

So a little help and your thoughts/opinions/facts would be great.

Thanks.
Your pal,
Larry

What does a mic from the front of the kit say?

IDDrummer said:

What does a mic from the front of the kit say?

Click to expand...

Is this a trick question?

I'm sure it would sound like it's supposed to. I just hear a lot of people say that their 12" tom gives them problems. I know exactly what they are talking about.

Larry,

Are we talking two toms mounted over the bass drum, or two toms mounted center, on a stand, next to the bass drum?

Or does it make a difference?

larryace said:

Is this a trick question?

I'm sure it would sound like it's supposed to. I just hear a lot of people say that their 12" tom gives them problems. I know exactly what they are talking about.

Click to expand...

Not supposed to be a trick question. I was just wondering if there was a difference in the sound of the two toms as perceived from the listener's viewpoint.

I don't use two toms over the bass drum currently - I use two kits, one with a 12" and one with a 13". I don't have trouble with either size tom singing from the driver's seat. The toms are positioned in the usual left-of-the-bass drum spot, one mounted on the bass and the other flying from a cymbal stand.

Are you having this issue with the tom mounted to the right of the bass (from the driver's seat)?

One theory could be that the ears are at a Peak or Valley in the wavelength or node or antinode if there is a standing wave or "mode"...If it was common with 12" toms, then the "common" tone of that size drum might have a wavelength that happens to be of length such that it is at a minimum acoustic pressure at a percentage of folks ears...

I never studied this, but it seems plausible, I do not know the answer.

If you know what note your 12" is tuned to approximately, you can look up the frequency and also wavelength...and then find where your ears are in relationship to the 1/4 wavelength

I have no info to substantiate any of this, but it seems possible.

IDDrummer said:

Are you having this issue with the tom mounted to the right of the bass (from the driver's seat)?

Click to expand...

To the right is the problem area it seems, no matter if it is a 12 or a 13 tom. I never had a problem like this with the tom to the left of the bass drum, assuming a right handed kit as seen from the throne.

Are you sure that you are at D0? You quoted the wavelength of D0...That is only 18 Hz or so and that seems low for a 12" tom....my kick drum has a primary frequency of roughly 50Hz.

So if you go up to the next D...D1 or even D2...it might start making a little more sense position wise. D2 is roughly 72 Hz and that seems to make more sense for a 12" tom...but again I don't know for sure. I have not measured the frequency of my 12" but I like it real low and on recordings it is not as low as my kick? At 50Hz?

Like I said, I'm shooting from the hip here...Interesting though.

I was in error, I deleted the post. It depends what octave you are as to the length of the wavelength. I think. It could very well be as you say. The note matches d on the pitchpipe the closest, but I tune my drums probably an octave higher than most players.

Here's a table:

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

larryace said:

I was in error, I deleted the post. It depends what octave you are as to the length of the wavelength. I think. It could very well be as you say. The note matches d on the pitchpipe the closest, but I tune my drums probably an octave higher than most players.

Here's a table:

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

Click to expand...

See Above your last post ^^^^^^^^^^^^

When I quoted 1870 cm I was looking at D zero which I'm assuming is a really low D. It came to about a 15 feet wavelength. I'm sure my tom is not at D zero, it has to be a higher octave. Now my ear is 3 feet from the drum. 3 is a multiple of 15 so it very well could be exactly that. Where did you get the 25% of the wavelength thing?

Edit: I just calculated that D two would be like 4.8 feet away, that's the closest. But a drum doesn't make a totally pure note so it won't be exact.

larryace said:

When I quoted 1870 cm I was looking at D zero which I'm assuming is a really low D. It came to about a 15 feet wavelength. I'm sure my tom is not at D zero, it has to be a higher octave. Now my ear is 3 feet from the drum. 3 is a multiple of 15 so it very well could be exactly that. Where did you get the 25% of the wavelength thing?

Edit: I just calculated that D two would be like 4.8 feet away, that's the closest. But a drum doesn't make a totally pure note so it won't be exact.

Click to expand...

Generalizing, the 1/4 wavelength locations are the points where the half, minimum and maximum amplitude points occur on an acoustic wave. I would be really curious to hear how your perception of the level of the 12" changes as you make fairly radical changes in the tuning....what happens if you swap the 10 and 12

Honestly I'm just not sure my hypothesis is meaningful or correct, but it's fun to fiddle around and see what comes of it.

Larry, have you thought about trying this with your toms switched, ala Kenny Aronoff? I wonder if your 10" would experience the same tone loss? Or, maybe it would shed light on if its the pitch range of the 12" along with your proximity to the drum. Something to think about.

I didnt read every post, but im running 2 up toms mounted to the bass drum wirh the Yamaha YESS mounts. Ive learned alot in the past month. Ive struggled through tuning 12"toms alot. Some of its related to how the 10 and 12 toms are tuned in relation to each other. In other words, the 10 tom tuning can affect how the 12 tom sounds and vice versa. Can be really aggravating.

The other big thing ive learned is that adjusting the tom arms and bass drum receiver thing can SERIOUSLY affect the toms. I struggled recently, only to realize adjusting the tom arms and mounts were the culprit. Raise this, lower that and bam... resonating toms...