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Old 12-08-2018, 07:06 PM
paddlepro paddlepro is offline
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Default "too Busy"

When I started playing in cover bands many years ago, I was terrified of doing fills. As many years and many gigs have passed I have picked up a few tricks and skills. Lately, I have had two guitarists comment that my play was too busy. Has this happened to anyone else?
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Old 12-08-2018, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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When I started playing in cover bands many years ago, I was terrified of doing fills. As many years and many gigs have passed I have picked up a few tricks and skills. Lately, I have had two guitarists comment that my play was too busy. Has this happened to anyone else?
A few times, but most band members appreciate the way I play to the music, especially the lyrics. Keep in mind there is a difference between "too busy" and overplaying just to show off your motor skills. It is a fine line, but one that great drummers walk.
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Old 12-08-2018, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

They've done you a big favor by working up the courage to tell you that they want a simplified performance. Don't take it personally. You've probably eased over the edge a bit and need to pull it back in.

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Old 12-08-2018, 09:37 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

If you've been playing straight time for a while with these guys, that's probably what they've come to expect from you. That's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. The question to ask is if what you're doing fits the song. If the song you're covering didn't have a busy part, it's usually best not to inject too much busy. It tends to stick out like a sore thumb to folks. Especially if you're playing in a dance floor situation, the priority should be the groove. Nail the fills that were in the original and otherwise stick to what gets (and keeps) folks out on the floor.
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Old 12-09-2018, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by gdmoore28 View Post
They've done you a big favor by working up the courage to tell you that they want a simplified performance. Don't take it personally. You've probably eased over the edge a bit and need to pull it back in.
+1, especially since two different people have said the same thing.Take it as constructive feedback.
I wonder, has anybody ever been told their drumming was too simple, with not enough fills?
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:10 AM
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+1, especially since two different people have said the same thing.Take it as constructive feedback.
I wonder, has anybody ever been told their drumming was too simple, with not enough fills?
Yes

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Old 12-09-2018, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by paddlepro View Post
When I started playing in cover bands many years ago, I was terrified of doing fills. As many years and many gigs have passed I have picked up a few tricks and skills. Lately, I have had two guitarists comment that my play was too busy. Has this happened to anyone else?
It's not clear from your post, but if you are playing covers, you should be aiming to replicate the recorded part as closely as possible.
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Old 12-09-2018, 03:09 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

You can't please everybody. Try simpler grooves and see how that works. The audience might complain.
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Old 12-09-2018, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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..Lately, I have had two guitarists comment that my play was too busy..

My first question would be why exactly the opinion of those 2 guitarists should be considered that important..

Unless you play with them in a really top-level coverband, which in my little country can be counted on 1 hand, i would not give automatically a lot of value to a few opinions from other musicians..

Even when you look at top professional performances, there will always be comments like..: yes, fantastic player, but.................

The trick is to decide if a comment is relevant or not..
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Old 12-09-2018, 05:19 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

Depends.
If you're in a dance band ,you're first priority is to make it danceable.
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Old 12-09-2018, 05:57 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

Thanks all for the great advice. Both guitar players practice with drum machines.
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Old 12-09-2018, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

As Larry (and I) would say; Record your live performance with the band. Evaluate your playing in the video.
Or if you are brave enough, post the video here and let us evaluate your playing.



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Old 12-09-2018, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Thanks all for the great advice. Both guitar players practice with drum machines.
Oh! Good point. It may be they don't like live acoustic drum playing in general.
I know a guitar player that feels that way. He always wants me to use digital drums turned way down at low volume.

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Old 12-09-2018, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
Oh! Good point. It may be they don't like live acoustic drum playing in general.
I know a guitar player that feels that way. He always wants me to use digital drums turned way down at low volume.

.
Could also be they are so used to playing with a machine, anything other than kick, snare, and hats gets them lost. Might not be the OPs issue at all.
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Old 12-09-2018, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

I think it's a very common issue...drummers playing too many notes. Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Look at guitar players, they can insert stuff almost anywhere. We can't if we want to continue to work.

Drummers have a completely different job description, almost opposite of the front people.

A lot of drummers, myself included, had to learn over time that drums are not a lead instrument, and can't just play things that upset the apple cart, in lyric based music.

Drums have to be somewhat predictable if you want dancers. Not completely, but mostly.

I've been paring down my playing to the point where it's 90% time, and the rest is as needed. Nothing extra. It works so well with Blues. I'm liking the playbacks.
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Old 12-09-2018, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by Hollywood Jim View Post
As Larry (and I) would say; Record your live performance with the band. Evaluate your playing in the video.
Or if you are brave enough, post the video here and let us evaluate your playing.



.
I didnít think heíd be willing to post it here, thatís why I didnít suggest it. But that was my thought, too.
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
It's not clear from your post, but if you are playing covers, you should be aiming to replicate the recorded part as closely as possible.
Is that always true? Is it never acceptable to get a little creative with your covers? I'm in a band and we play covers, and we don't play them exactly how they are recorded. We'll all go and listen to the song and then try to play what it sounded like to us, and then sort of decide together what our interpretation of the song is going to be like. Sometimes the songs we cover, we're not even working with the same instruments that were in the original recording of the song, like there will be horns and keys and stuff that we just don't have. Sometimes the singer even rewrites the lyrics. As far as the drum parts, I usually try to keep it close to what the original drummer played, but I don't copy it exactly. No one's ever complained about it. Well, a friend of ours did once, and we told her to just go listen on the CD if that's what she wants to hear. Lots of people have told us they enjoyed our covers though.
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Old 12-09-2018, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by paddlepro View Post
. Lately, I have had two guitarists comment that my play was too busy. Has this happened to anyone else?
I figured it out by myself. The more I listened to the role that drums play in different styles of music, the more I tried to emulate them.
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:03 PM
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Is that always true? Is it never acceptable to get a little creative with your covers? I'm in a band and we play covers, and we don't play them exactly how they are recorded. We'll all go and listen to the song and then try to play what it sounded like to us, and then sort of decide together what our interpretation of the song is going to be like. Sometimes the songs we cover, we're not even working with the same instruments that were in the original recording of the song, like there will be horns and keys and stuff that we just don't have. Sometimes the singer even rewrites the lyrics. As far as the drum parts, I usually try to keep it close to what the original drummer played, but I don't copy it exactly. No one's ever complained about it. Well, a friend of ours did once, and we told her to just go listen on the CD if that's what she wants to hear. Lots of people have told us they enjoyed our covers though.
I think it's mostly true.

Whenever I hear a cover band deviating from the original recording I assume that they're either a) unable to play it as written and in need of more practice or b) not conscientious enough to learn the original the way it was written. Flawed execution, in either case.

Now, I've seen bands whose whole thing is to take originals and transform them into entirely different things, like ska-punk versions played at whiplash tempo. Those aren't really cover bands to me and they don't pretend to be.

As a drummer, I see great value in learning parts exactly as written. This helps me to develop my chops and does not try the audience's patience.

My two cents, anyway!
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by Channing View Post
Is that always true? Is it never acceptable to get a little creative with your covers? I'm in a band and we play covers, and we don't play them exactly how they are recorded. We'll all go and listen to the song and then try to play what it sounded like to us, and then sort of decide together what our interpretation of the song is going to be like. Sometimes the songs we cover, we're not even working with the same instruments that were in the original recording of the song, like there will be horns and keys and stuff that we just don't have. Sometimes the singer even rewrites the lyrics. As far as the drum parts, I usually try to keep it close to what the original drummer played, but I don't copy it exactly. No one's ever complained about it. Well, a friend of ours did once, and we told her to just go listen on the CD if that's what she wants to hear. Lots of people have told us they enjoyed our covers though.
I am in a covers band as well, and my standard is "play the part close enough to the record that it doesn't jar the audience out of the song". What do I mean by that? Imagine you're listening to a very well-known song and the singer flubs the lyrics. It can be very jarring. Or the guitar solo for this certain song is iconic and the guitarist doesn't play any of the licks on the record but does his/her complete own thing. The audience is less likely to catch that than a lyrics flub but will still have the feeling that something is amiss. A drum part is even less likely to be specifically caught out by the average listener, but the audience will still know that it's not quite right. They may not be able to put their finger on it, but it's not quite right.

Having said that, as I mentioned in another thread recently, even the bands who recorded the song on the album might not play it exactly as recorded due to overdubs, extra players/instruments in the studio, parts evolving, etc. I like to listen to live versions of particularly tricky songs to hear how the touring drummer (often not the same guy as the one who cut the album) plays it live. But it still has to fit and make the song move and groove; most people are there to dance and have fun, not cross their arms and analyze.

So the answer is, it depends. Depends on you, your bandmates, your ability, their ability, your shared commitment for accuracy or feel, and your audience.
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Old 12-09-2018, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by alparrott View Post
So the answer is, it depends. Depends on you, your bandmates, your ability, their ability, your shared commitment for accuracy or feel, and your audience.
I was thinking about that too. Depending on the audience, people probably won't even notice. If your audience is a bunch of drunk tourists who aren't musicians to begin with, I think you can get away with a lot.
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

If you haven't been told you're too busy at some point, you aint trying hard enough...at least this is the lie I tell myself after Ive been hit with this feedback, which I heard last week.
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by paddlepro View Post
When I started playing in cover bands many years ago, I was terrified of doing fills. As many years and many gigs have passed I have picked up a few tricks and skills. Lately, I have had two guitarists comment that my play was too busy. Has this happened to anyone else?
I think this happens to everybody. However, I think you were lucky that this took years. Most times, right off the bat of playing with a new drummer will illicit the "you're too busy" comment ;)

But it should be commended that they merely said you were "too busy" as opposed to you creating a train wreck by executing your extraneous fill and the groove completely suffering or the song falling apart!

I guess it's just the nature of our instrument that you have the ability to create all this extra stuff around the groove of a song, yet since you're not a melodic instrument, you're not really changing the song. Imagine if a piano player noodled his way through a big hit - most people would probably get angry because it's no longer the song they wanted to hear.

But drummers have to realize they have parts to play within a song, you learn your part and it interlocks with the rest of the parts to be a sum greater than the parts. You're the first guy who's said they've played simply, then incorporated fills, then was told to pull back. Usually guys are told to pull back from the get go ;)
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Old 12-09-2018, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

And don't forget that guitarists generally don't speak drum, so their "too busy" comment could mean a deviation of time when you launch into a fill. Or something else. Too loud maybe.

All I'm saying is don't take their words at face value unless you know for sure, that this is exactly what they meant.

Fills are over-rated IMO. Sorry.
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Old Yesterday, 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Channing View Post
Is that always true? Is it never acceptable to get a little creative with your covers? I'm in a band and we play covers, and we don't play them exactly how they are recorded. We'll all go and listen to the song and then try to play what it sounded like to us, and then sort of decide together what our interpretation of the song is going to be like. Sometimes the songs we cover, we're not even working with the same instruments that were in the original recording of the song, like there will be horns and keys and stuff that we just don't have. Sometimes the singer even rewrites the lyrics. As far as the drum parts, I usually try to keep it close to what the original drummer played, but I don't copy it exactly. No one's ever complained about it. Well, a friend of ours did once, and we told her to just go listen on the CD if that's what she wants to hear. Lots of people have told us they enjoyed our covers though.
For clarity: you are responding to my claim that (in a covers band) we should aim to replicate, as closely as possible, the drum part. And yes, that assumes that you are attempting to replicate the original song. We're not talking tribute band levels of authenticity here, but a recognisable reproduction of the original part.

My approach is to try to build on the dynamics by adding hi hat barks and mild cymbal crashes to appropriate places in the chorus. At appropriate places in a guitar solo I might re-use fills from elsewhere in the song.

One of the drummer's key roles is to provide the signposts for what's coming next. If your additions muddy those signals, you aren't doing yourself any favours.

Your singer re-writes the lyrics? If you're not creating a good parody, or changing he to she or vice versa as appropriate...WTAF?
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Old Yesterday, 03:36 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
if you are playing covers, you should be aiming to replicate the recorded part as closely as possible.
Not necessarily. Perhaps if you're in some sort of tribute band, but otherwise, the goal should be to play good music that people will enjoy hearing.
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Old Yesterday, 04:08 AM
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Not necessarily. Perhaps if you're in some sort of tribute band, but otherwise, the goal should be to play good music that people will enjoy hearing.
In my book there are three broad approaches:

Tribute - The aim is to get the sound to be as close to the original band as humanly possible.

Cover - Everybody tries to replicate the original parts, but nobody will mistake the band for the original but the audience will feel that the song was played "right".

Interpretation - The audience will know the song, but will be thrilled by the fascinating and creative way you put your own interpretation on it.
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Old Yesterday, 04:51 AM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

Can OP give us an example?
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Old Yesterday, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
In my book there are three broad approaches:

Tribute - The aim is to get the sound to be as close to the original band as humanly possible.

Cover - Everybody tries to replicate the original parts, but nobody will mistake the band for the original but the audience will feel that the song was played "right".

Interpretation - The audience will know the song, but will be thrilled by the fascinating and creative way you put your own interpretation on it.
Our band is in the 'interpretation" mode for sure. We barely replicate anything; we do all of the covers our own way. Peace and goodwill.
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Old Yesterday, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I think it's a very common issue...drummers playing too many notes. Just because we can doesn't mean we should.

Drums have to be somewhat predictable if you want dancers. Not completely, but mostly.
In the Rockabilly scene, this is spot on true. As I play standing up, I'm limited as to what I can do. When folks are dancing to Rock This Town or other songs like that, I can't really embellish or things can go south real fast.
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Old Yesterday, 05:23 PM
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In the Rockabilly scene, this is spot on true. As I play standing up, I'm limited as to what I can do. When folks are dancing to Rock This Town or other songs like that, I can't really embellish or things can go south real fast.
IMO if you embellish "Rock This Town", it will go south just as fast lol. Music like that works best with a dead straight drum part IMO.

I play the shuffle pattern to that song on the snare rim to add an authentic rockabilly feel to it. I'm not sure if Slim Jim does that, but I like how the drum part sits shuffling on the snare rim.
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Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM
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I'm a trumpet player first, and I've played with lots of drummers. My take on this is that you probably over-play, and probably took those guys a good bit of time before they finally decided to say something to you about it.

It's a common issue, and I see it all the time, particularly with younger drummers. They just have to "get theirs" - they throw in all kinds of extra nonsense that does nothing for the song, but they just can't help throwing in fancy fills all over the place. (usually losing time or dropping out of the pocket in the process)

Fills should make sense - they are the salt & pepper of the tune. Just the right amount and it's great. Too much, and it ruins it. Fills are the punctuation in the musical sentence.

Listen to the greats - Hal Blaine, John "JR" Robinson, Lonnie Wilson, Russel Kunkel - those guys just know how to craft a drum part and play the line. Sometimes it calls for making things a bit more busy, but most of the time, it's groove with fills and hits in just the right places, played in just the right way. It's the kind of drumming I've always aspired to. I can appreciate the chops monsters out there, but tasteful playing is IMO where it's at.
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Old Yesterday, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: "too Busy"

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Your singer re-writes the lyrics? If you're not creating a good parody, or changing he to she or vice versa as appropriate...WTAF?
It's pretty funny. I guess it's kind of the same idea as Weird Al maybe, but it's different.. People enjoy it.. Sometimes I start messing up because I'm laughing too hard.
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