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  #161  
Old 03-25-2012, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Speakinf of The White Stripes, I argued 'til I was blue in the face with ny superviser years ago as I was talking about Steve Vai and he said Jack from TWS was the best guitarist in the world because Jimmy Page (of all people) said so.
I tried to tell him from a musicians point of view technique wise but he wasn't having it. he honestly thought if you hand Jack a guitsr he coukd do anything and dobit better than anyone!
That really wound me up. Non-musicians have no idea what's good and what's not and there's never any real attempt to give the good musicians the credit they deserve, whereas back in the big band days people had a grasp on what was good and what wasn't.
Vai can play more notes per second than JW, true, but there's way more soul in JWs playing. And that's coming from an accomplished guitarist of 18 years playing. (I dont like The White Stripes much by the way). But, then, that's all down to perception. I don't really like The Beatles, and don't get the hype - The Rolling Stones were infinitely better IN MY OPINION.

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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Pop culture has rendored the average music listener into a mindless zombie, they think a basic drum loop with 1 synth, no bass and some layered talking is the height of talent!
People who listen to modern dance aren't aware at how over compressed it is just to keep up with 'loudest' CD competition modern music is all about and they don't seem to notice the synths dropping out on the bass drum beats and jumping back in on the off-beats due to disgisting levels of compression.

When will the madness end?
This is nothing new. It's called the 'Loudness War'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

It's been going on for about 40 years. And, really, from a metal standpoint - how can you start kicking off about overcompression!? Think about the 'drum sound' you are trying to achieve hitting hard all the time (you previously told us about it).... surely thats you naturally compressing all your notes to be as LOUD as possible?!
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  #162  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Sorry dude, but this right here is just plain old music snobbery - you've set yourself up as an elitist. You really think that people need to be musicians to have "good" music resonate with them? These sweeping generalizations are just lame and you have become what you rail against.

Just callin' it like I'm seein' it.
+1. To some good music is something they can dance to, or sing along with. They don't care about 19/8 music or polyrhythms, but just having fun. They don't want to have to analyze it, and then have a light go off and say, Oh Yeah, that is good music. All music is good music if you like it and it's not if you don't. It's that simple.
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  #163  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

I don't over compress my drums. they're compressed that way to get that sound, not for volume and our tracks don't bottom out when the kicks go. Our masters are always quieter than everyone else too.
It annoys me but, I'm not willing to sacrifice sound quality over .5 of a db!

Good post Creeply tuna.

As for Jack of the White Stripes, our guitarist has similar years experience and will tell you the opposite. I think he's crap. It's not my style but, I cajbstill usually appreciate peoples playing. He can write some catchy stuff but I don't buy the 'he's got soul 'cos he crap' rule that shit players invented to make themselves feel good.
I've heard it all 'you can tell John Petruccics spent his life playing to a metronome, he has no soul'.
What a load of crap thought up by someone insecure that they don't have an ounce of his ability.
Everyone has it in them to think of a catchy tune, some are better at it than others. being technically good just enables you to play everything that goes on in your head. you should hear my guitar solos, in ny head they are wicked. Hand me a guitar and I can only make a dying elephant sound.
Of course some people do technical for technical sake and it sucks but when someone is in tune with both of these that greatness is achieved. Knowing when and when not to shred, use a technique to get a sound not make a statement.
I just instantly switch off when someone says 'i play for the song' 'cos 9 out of 10 times it means they can't be bothered to practise and live by this motto like it's a way of rubbishing those who HAVE bothered to practise.
Everyone plays for the song, it's just some people have better taste than others or even just different taste.

So i may be a bit snobby towards processed pop but this is in different context to my original post. People looking down at metal like it's less skilled just because it's heavy.

I'm snobby towards pop because I care about music, it bothers me that the music industry has been going downhill for years, that the great player get no recognition. That the best players in the world sit in the shadow emulating machines while the auto-tuned star get hero worship for having next to no talent. I hate artists who don't write their own tunes, I can't relate to any of the words or feelings the songs try to convey when i know some popstar minced into a studio one day with their shades on and sat and got the script played out to them. all the talented song writers who never really get the sort of attention they deserve and the fact that YES these crappy 1 synth, drum loop layered talking songs dominate our radio-waves. why? because it's all about money. it's cheap and quick to do, the label owns the songs, the brand everything, why would they invest money in getting a 'proper' band the sort of megastar status of a popstar when they won't own the songs? They won't make as much money off of them, it will cost more to record them, cost more to tour them if they did a pop production for them.
so yeah, I AM snobby about it. does it contradict my original post? No.

Last edited by Chunky; 03-26-2012 at 12:17 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #164  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

Let me be clear. It isn't just non-muso's that can have horrible taste in music, and I know plenty of non-muso's that are up to their necks in new obscure music because they are huge FANS and don't settle for the canned corporate stuff. So don't for a minute think that just because you can play an instrument that you suddenly have good taste and that everyone else's sucks.

I would argue that it's much harder to learn composition than it is to learn the mechanics of playing an instrument. I don't give a shit about wankers who can sit around and shred all day. I don't consider that in itself talent at all - that's just left-brained dominance run amok. "Hey, lets add some meth to our daily intake of rock steroids and prove, by virtue of our speed and our ability to stitch this shit together, how "talented" we are and how weak everyone else is."

Is there a lot of weak corporate stuff out there saturating the airwaves? Of course. There is absolutely nothing new about that. I've been playing long enough to remember when everyone thought New Wave was the harbinger of death for all things "good" about music. Guess what? It didn't happen. And pop is not about to kill all things good about music now, either. You can spend all your time complaining about how nasty pop music is, or you can do a little digging and find underground music, that's always been there, that is made by people totally into it for the music - and for no other reason.

So stop whining about what other people like and go make your contribution to the world of music. And lay off the meth! Honestly, your diatribes are getting old. Get over yourself.
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  #165  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Sorry dude, but this right here is just plain old music snobbery - you've set yourself up as an elitist. You really think that people need to be musicians to have "good" music resonate with them? These sweeping generalizations are just lame and you have become what you rail against.

Just callin' it like I'm seein' it.
I'll join the +1 saga, you don't need to be a musician to appreciate any kind of music or instrument acomplishement, many non-musicians are actually audiophile addict (well, I'm both actually) and they certainely know who's who, who's good, who's so-so, who's brilliant and who's considered bad in the music industry, all styles included, they probably know more about musicianship than us drummers, know about, they live for the music, they know almost everybody, every bands and every styles. :)

And Mr Joe Public can certainely appreciate music and musicians, music is about feel and emotions, textures and colors, therefore, they can feel emotions, textures and colors, thus, they appreciate music for it's own true worth, to view a musician and/or music with an analytic technical minded approach and to compare it to another is not a part of the equation as far as I'm concerned, it's how the whole piece feels to me that the crux of the matter, not how much notes such and such muso's is capable of playing over a 1 minute solo or riff or whatever, yes, there's music I listen just for that, but generally, it's not going to be my favourite band or artist :)
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Last edited by Mad About Drums; 03-26-2012 at 12:53 AM.
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  #166  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Let me be clear. It isn't just non-muso's that can have horrible taste in music, and I know plenty of non-muso's that are up to their necks in new obscure music because they are huge FANS and don't settle for the canned corporate stuff. So don't for a minute think that just because you can play an instrument that you suddenly have good taste and that everyone else's sucks.

I would argue that it's much harder to learn composition than it is to learn the mechanics of playing an instrument. I don't give a shit about wankers who can sit around and shred all day. I don't consider that in itself talent at all - that's just left-brained dominance run amok. "Hey, lets add some meth to our daily intake of rock steroids and prove, by virtue of our speed and our ability to stitch this shit together, how "talented" we are and how weak everyone else is."i

Is there a lot of weak corporate stuff out there saturating the airwaves? Of course. There is absolutely nothing new about that. I've been playing long enough to remember when everyone thought New Wave was the harbinger of death for all things "good" about music. Guess what? It didn't happen. And pop is not about to kill all things good about music now, either. You can spend all your time complaining about how nasty pop music is, or you can do a little digging and find underground music, that's always been there, that is made by people totally into it for the music - and for no other reason.

So stop whining about what other people like and go make your contribution to the world of music. And lay off the meth! Honestly, your diatribes are getting old. Get over yourself.
I can't believe you read all that and came away with that message. I did not say being able to play technical stuff gives you better taste, I said it enables you to play whatever you think up and I said it's when both taste and technique are married together that you get true gretness. when done well you won't even be aware that something insanely technical is happening.
But you've twisted my words and used it as a springboard to launch your attack on 'technical' music.
I've stated many times on here (you can read it again if it will help you) that I like music, simple and technical. there's only good and bad music and even then it's a matter of taste. i don't love technical music cos it's technical and I don't hate simple music 'cos it's simple. if it sounds good to me I like it regardless.
I just don't buy into the whole 'i play for the song' crap that weak musicians come out with. i might enjoy their songs but I still think it's an excuse for lack of ability. it's easy to fake taste by playing as little as possible.
That doesn't mean i want killer chops in every song, i don't. i just think people who live by that motto do so because that's ALL they can do.
Vinnie coluita gets the most stick, drummers who 'play for the song' always pick on him. why? he plays for the song too, keeps it simple when need, goes mental when it sounds good and even manages both at times too yet I've read interview after interview of mediocre drummers putting him down and saying 'I'd rather play for the song and move people' like they are doing something he isn't!

Last edited by Chunky; 03-26-2012 at 01:24 AM.
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  #167  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

(pressed send by mistake)

Vinnie plays for the song too but the mediocre squad get on their high horses and look down at him for actually being better than them. He always play what's right for the song yet gets discriminated against for his amazing ability.
That is snobbery, well, actually more like jealousy.

And that egotistical rubbish you've just spouted after reading my post totally wrong makes me think it's YOU who needs to get over himself.

Read my posts properly!
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  #168  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

A point I think worth making is that maybe some of the snobbery toward metal is not an entirely bad thing. Consider that as a genre metal pretty overtly stakes claim to being a category practically designed around the outsider.

With the idea of music made by outsiders for outsiders, most metal folks I know are not exactly looking to become mainstream breakout successes. If anything, there is even a drive to become more fiercly distant from the corporate and canned rock that is so prevelant.

Read around the metal community blogoshpere and there is a backlash towards moving into more accessible, 'civillian friendly' tunes. Bands are trying desperately to appear as more 'brOOTal' and 'kvlt'. I know, Mastodon, for example, got a ton of flak with their last release (The Hunter) being pejoratively touted as their 'Metallica-Black album'. In this case, a more accessible release that reaches more listeners is somehow a loss in credibility.

So, if metal is put down, beat-up, bruised and not given just respect . . . what better fuel for art and the oft-anger driven themes of metal?
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  #169  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:53 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

That's exactly what those bands did 40+ years ago and they still sound great, original with an humanity touch and feel in nowadays...To grown up kids like "You & I" who were not even born in that era and enjoy the good music from it.

Have you listened to the first two Black Sabbath albums?

Do you know the background, roots where the Sabb's music came from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Also, seens as people are praising the pioneers of metal I think djent owes as much if not more to latin rhythms and drum excersises translated to guitar than black sabbath.
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  #170  
Old 03-26-2012, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: No its really not

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Music is a life style.

Music is a business.

Music is a livelihood.

Music is a passion.

Your children, your family, your wife - these are life.

Music is nothing more than a means to an end. Remove music, insert being a comic, insert being a cartoonist, insert being a welder.

Music, and most especially the music you listen to for entertainment (nice try, but you're out of the context of the line you quoted... you know better, because you're not daft) is not life.

Life is life. Entertainment is most surely not. Your career most surely is not.

Get a grip.

Music plays a bigger part in your life than in, say most non-pros... but it is not life. Not even close.

Hey Chunk - As I said earlier - character is sticking to the things you believe in (especially when nobody is looking) - I love that you dig what you dig and own it. Friggen right on, man.


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music is what i do every day all day

music is what I love

music is how i survive

I spend more time making music than I do with my family

so other than food and water .... music is how we survive

so ill say it again

music is my life

speak for yourself when making these statements and assumptions

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 03-26-2012 at 02:35 AM.
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  #171  
Old 03-26-2012, 03:23 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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That's exactly what those bands did 40+ years ago and they still sound great, original with an humanity touch and feel in nowadays...To grown up kids like "You & I" who were not even born in that era and enjoy the good music from it.

Have you listened to the first two Black Sabbath albums?

Do you know the background, roots where the Sabb's music came from?
I'm sorry but Sabbath can't take qll the credit for djent. the rhythms are completely different, the sound is worlds apart. Yes it grew from those bands but, it's so far removed that to say they are the fathers of it all is giving them a bit too much credit.

We could argue all day about 'well if it wasn't for Sabbath there'd he no Metallica' and if there wasn't Metallica there wouldn't be....'
But really how do we know?
I don't like Sabbath OR Metallica, I can't be inspired by bands I don't like. Icm probably inspires by people who've been inspired by them but my mains inspirations are none metal so what do I call my band? Michael Jackson metal?
And before I'd hears of djent I'd already recorded loads of demos with djent syncopations that I based off of drum excersises not Black Sabbath.

You can imagine my excitement and disappointment when I first heard djent. i felt like someone stole my style. so i don't really think anyone owes anyone for anything. People create stuff and great minds think alike. there's only so many combinations of anything.

Modern metal is NOT an extension of what Sabbath did, it's new territory.
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  #172  
Old 03-26-2012, 03:25 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

Oh and thumbs up GVdadrummasum, I get what you mean!
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  #173  
Old 03-26-2012, 04:40 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Modern metal is NOT an extension of what Sabbath did, it's new territory.

I see your point, but listening to bands like The Sword and Orange Goblin, some bands are running plays straight out of the Sabbath playbook - not a rip mind you, I enjoy both of those bands.

A great, great, great grandfather is still the same bloodline as the current breed.
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  #174  
Old 03-26-2012, 04:59 AM
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I see your point, but listening to bands like The Sword and Orange Goblin, some bands are running plays straight out of the Sabbath playbook - not a rip mind you, I enjoy both of those bands.

A great, great, great grandfather is still the same bloodline as the current breed.
You're right, and great, great, great geandfather is probably a better description as I find originators to be slightly misleading. I'm probably be fickle mind.
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  #175  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Modern metal is NOT an extension of what Sabbath did, it's new territory.
Yep. Just created out of thin air by god, the raw earth and a rib taken from Adam.

There is no evolution. That is not the way of the universe.......only a new creation, masterly crafted from nothing.

Now, where have I heard that before?.
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  #176  
Old 03-26-2012, 12:18 PM
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Bad Tempered Clavier Bad Tempered Clavier is offline
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Modern metal is NOT an extension of what Sabbath did, it's new territory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Yep. Just created out of thin air by god, the raw earth and a rib taken from Adam.

There is no evolution. That is not the way of the universe.......only a new creation, masterly crafted from nothing.

Now, where have I heard that before?.
BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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  #177  
Old 03-26-2012, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
I just don't buy into the whole 'i play for the song' crap that weak musicians come out with. i might enjoy their songs but I still think it's an excuse for lack of ability. it's easy to fake taste by playing as little as possible.
That doesn't mean i want killer chops in every song, i don't. i just think people who live by that motto do so because that's ALL they can do.
Chunk-o-rama, if a drummer plays parts that please songwriters, other players and listeners, surely then it doesn't matter if that's all they can do? Just as long as what they play is right for the song and suitably tight.

The "haha, I cut you" game has been played by musos for many, many years to spur each other on. I remember a comment from Matt Smith one time about how the old jazzers used to compete with their chops with cutting contests. That same spirit was in hard rock and early metal (Purps, Sabs, Zep, etc) - "hey, I like that, I'm gunna steal it and make it better". Same in fusion and modern metal - striving to be the best.

I attribute much of it to youthful exuberance, ambition and testosterone. Not that there's anything wrong with that ...

Still, a more rounded view recognises that there are many paths to enjoyable music. Not everyone has to be great or a virtuoso. There's been plenty of great music with no drums at all, although most not to my drum-head tastes haha

Personally, I don't care for players who try to sound like virtuosos - they get a general effect that's superficially like what master musicians play, but they don't have enough control to make those complex patterns really sing. So you get a lot of impressive athleticism and coordination - which is fine if that's your main game - without the articulation, expressiveness, taste and control of the masters. To my ear, that kind of playing tends to sound cluttered - swamping the tones of the other players but without adding anything more special than energy and dexterity. Complex in execution but really basic in conception. It's a phase that most players go through and that stretching is useful for development but it ain't the be-all-and-end-all.

Going back to the "not everyone has to be great or a virtuoso" line, in a group - be it social or musical - in my experience it can be a good thing to have people who sit back and let others take the spotlight. Especially when others in the band want the spotlight and know how to make the most of it. It's a buzz to support talented performers.

I like the accompanist role - it's unassuming, supportive, and still retains many challenges ... taste, touch, colours, energy, dynamics, timing, consistency provide plenty enough challenge to keep me interested ... forever.
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  #178  
Old 03-26-2012, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Yep. Just created out of thin air by god, the raw earth and a rib taken from Adam.

There is no evolution. That is not the way of the universe.......only a new creation, masterly crafted from nothing.

Now, where have I heard that before?.
Lol, I hope that was sarcasm and not a brain fart!
You know exactley what I mean.

And Pollyanna, i get you, I'm totally with you, I love simple stuff. I don't like technical for technical sake (unless I'm in the mood). I just like music that sounds good, be it technical or simple.
I just don't like the attitude of the simple players who put players like vinnie down for being able to do the technical stuff as he plays just as simple as them too at times just he's instantly percieved in a different way because of the hard stuff he's done. do you get me?

And I'm not saying all simple players have that attitude, I'm only going off the ones who've said such stuff in rhythm magazine over the years. Imagine vinnie slagging players off for only doing simple? But simple music often gets the instant label of being 'musical' or 'all about the groove' when it's not always the case.

Like a said, there is only good and bad music.
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  #179  
Old 03-26-2012, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

You are not alone, Mike Mangini in the March issue of Modern Drummer said that drummers, including himself, don't get the credit they desreve for the hard work & creativity they put into it.
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  #180  
Old 03-26-2012, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
I just don't like the attitude of the simple players who put players like vinnie down for being able to do the technical stuff as he plays just as simple as them too at times just he's instantly percieved in a different way because of the hard stuff he's done.
I'm a simple player and I think Vinnie often overplays. And that's not putting him down - he's mastered the instrument in a way few have achieved. It's just taste.

Criticisms are not necessarily put downs. I see no problem with not enjoying the style / approach of drummers whose talent you admire.
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Last edited by Pollyanna; 03-27-2012 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Correcting incoherent garble
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  #181  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

Don't let it bother you. If someone is a snob, or doesn't like what you play, nothing you can do will ever change their mind anyway. Who cares what they say.
If you like playing metal then play it! Who the hell says you need to play all styles?
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  #182  
Old 03-27-2012, 03:58 AM
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Good point, Sam. Who has time to learn all styles? I could play whatever I want. I do what I do, not only for the music, but also for the vibe, the surroundings, the people, the audience, etc. Mostly the feeling that it gives me when I play. It's about me and what gets my energy and creative juices flowing. I'm not being selfish. If you're comfortable in your surroundings, then that's just one more load off your mind if you know what I mean. I'm not missing anything, this is my niche in the drumming world, eh. (that's Canadian for "you think?")
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  #183  
Old 03-27-2012, 04:19 AM
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True, I agree withe all 3 of those responses. There's no harm in learning other stuff but if you don't be selfish and play for yourself then that's probably a fast route to becoming bored or disenchanted with your insteument.
You know what? I stopped playing drums altogether for a little over a year about 6 years ago.
Why? I was engaged to the ice queen, she loved money and wanted a nice house etc, I got an office job while going to college on a night time to help get a promotion.
I lost myself completely and got so caught up in the rat race I didn't even realise how miserable I was 'til something clicked and I said 'f**k you' picked up sticks again, put my piercing back in, dressed like I wanted to again and went straight back to being discriminated against because of my image and taste in music.

And you know what? I couldn't be happier about it! it scares me to think, what if I didn't snap? What ig I GOT that promotion? Where would I be now and more importantly how would I feel?
I've said so much of what I want to say through my music that I can't imagine the sort of stuff I'd have bottled up inside me by now.

So I couldn't agree more, please yourself because at the end of the day YOU are no.1 and you're all that matters. Regret is the worst of all feelings.

Last edited by Chunky; 03-27-2012 at 04:24 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #184  
Old 03-27-2012, 10:28 AM
mikel mikel is offline
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Default Re: drum snobbery

How dous this "discriminated against" manifest itself Chunk?

I know Goths, Punks, Hippies (yes, still, being an ex myself) and they embrace and love the way they dress and the music they like and I don't believe any of them feel discriminated against.

I believe a part of the way they are likes to be slightly outside the norm, whatever that may be. If they get a "Look" from a suit it is mission accomplished, but discrimination will not come into it. I don't believe any of them have ever been refused entry to a shop or spat at in the street.

Perhaps you are being a little too sensitive. Dress the way you want, and listen to and play what you want. Its a free country and I would guess 99.9% of people wouldnt care if you wore a Tutu and spent your days humming the 1812 overture.
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  #185  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

I have been playing on and off since I was 12 ( I am 30 now). I started playing Jazz, Fusion and Gospel. Then I played metal for a few years. Since then I have played in ska and punk bands ever since. I had education in music since I was 8 years old to include brass and piano. I even still take drum lessons mainly in Jazz.

Does it make me a less than qualified drummer because I play punk? I still play gigs that range from classic rock to country from time to time. When I first started playing punk (to include the few Warped tour dates I did) I really did not enjoy it much at all. Years passed and for me it was more about having fun.

I play music because its fun and I really don't care what other people think. Most of the great drummers I have heard say its important to listen to and try to play genres you normally would not.
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  #186  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
Any wife, husband or friend of a musician knows only too well how EVERYTHING comes last to the music.
That goes for creative people in general.
Not sure what was meant by this statement. I may be interpreting it incorrectly so please forgive me if so, but I can assure you I’d burn every trace of musical element from my life before it coming before my wife and child.


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You know, this exact sentiment has come up more than once on this forum, but you may be the first one I've seen to use it in a metal context. Usually it's the jazz crowd who argue that there exists an "objectively good" and if you don't like it, then that means you aren't musically developed enough to appreciate it.
I find this to be true as well, and I consider myself mainly a student of jazz playing. I learned quickly to detach from many of these players and as a result the number of gigs I get is reduced. I don’t really care.

Heck within Jazz itself, the hardcore people will look down on artists for not being “something”. For example some consider Louis Armstrong a mock to the genre when in fact; he changed the way music would be played for many generations to come.


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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
To some good music is something they can dance to, or sing along with. They don't care about 19/8 music or polyrhythms, but just having fun. They don't want to have to analyze it, and then have a light go off and say, Oh Yeah, that is good music. All music is good music if you like it and it's not if you don't. It's that simple.
This all the way!!!!!

In my opinion ultimately each style of music will be received by people who can relate to it. If someone can’t relate to it (musically/vocally/rhythmically) it serves a little benefit to their enjoyment. Enjoyment is why people generally come to music in the first place.

For any musician to say that someone needs to get to a level any deeper than the enjoyment aspect is full of self indulgent bull.
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  #187  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:57 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

Is snobbery the right word here? Maybe some people just don't like the music you like; just like you don't like the music other people like.
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  #188  
Old 03-27-2012, 01:13 PM
shadowlorde shadowlorde is offline
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
I enjoy Megs sloppy rhythms

there are times I wish I could still have that child like innocence in my playing

that's easy ... just get REALLY drunk before you play
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  #189  
Old 03-27-2012, 01:47 PM
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Is snobbery the right word here? Maybe some people just don't like the music you like; just like you don't like the music other people like.
Agree (I also think Shadow's on to something ...)

But it's not just taste. Sophistication matters. Not only to "snobs" but to everyone.

Hands up all those whose favourite band is The Wiggles? Why not? Because you've been there, done that. You've moved on.

I see no reason why someone who needs a level of sophistication in their music should try to get into stuff that's almost the equivalent of The Wiggles to them ... just for the sake of being more "open minded".

Fact is some people are especially musically intelligent (not necessarily the same as IQ, sometimes dramatically :) and have a deep musical education. Chances are they're going to get into a lot of stuff that will bore us regular musos as much as some of our stuff will bore them.

LZ, as you said, we like what we like.

The other factor is how much a musician is is affected by basic visceral appeal. Lots of jazz trained players simply prefer to rock out.
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  #190  
Old 03-27-2012, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

I view music the same way I view art, except that I'm a much better musician than artist. When I see a painting or a sculpture it is the overall piece that captures me, then after being entranced I look deeper into the work to see how it was done. One of my favorite paintings in Starry Night (cliche i know but I like it). In fact I'm staring at the poster of it right now, but when I saw the real painting at MOMA you can see the detail of the brushstrokes instead of the image of the strokes.

Music is the same to me, my favorite pieces caught my attention and then I delved into the depths of technique and composition than made something that got my attention. However something that doesn't touch my soul but is still well made I can study it, but never as deeply because I don't care about its results. If someone made a sculpture of millions of twigs all perfectly connecting at exact angles, but it looked like a birds nest I would not care to see how they went through the effort to make it. Further if someone is trying to make a complicated piece they need the mastery of their craft to be able to do the techniques while focusing on the overall piece. Most of us are only good enough to copy the poster not the strokes.

I dislike metal the same way I dislike lots of music, it sounds ok but the guys behind it just aren't good enough to pull off what they are trying to do. Especially with the advanced patterns that many metalers play these days, my ear is good enough to hear any timing mistake and I'd rather hear something played correctly than something a little wilder with slight mistakes.

Now if someone learns to swing a blast beat we can have the ultimate snob music.

PS I like/Hate all genres, they all have stuff I like and stuff I hate, just some more than others.
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  #191  
Old 03-27-2012, 03:34 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

Polly.....But it's not just taste. Sophistication matters.

Do you not think our tastes change as we become more sophisticated?

I got into photography a few years ago. A little more seriously than just capturing the family events. It seems to me that the more I have the camera in my hand(experience and learning) the more I see. I see things I may not have seen before. I am more sophisticated as a photographer, so I see things differently.
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  #192  
Old 03-27-2012, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Polly.....But it's not just taste. Sophistication matters.
I agree, Grunt. Objective quality exists. You can tell by musician acceptance - how many good musicians in your field/s want to play with you.

But ... how much we care about objective quality is a matter of taste. Sometimes the quality is there but the music doesn't touch us. Sometimes rough and raw music hits the spot.

Expressiveness is the other side of the coin. Joe Cocker doesn't objectively sing as well as, say, the guys from The Boys Next Door but I'd pick Joe's gutbucket soulfulness.over THBND's bland slickness any day.

Admittedly, I think expressiveness is less important with drums than other instruments. Since we form the foundation for the music we can't afford too many expressive glitches or everything gets muddy. Expressiveness is still important with drums, maybe about as important as tightness is for singers.
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  #193  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I'm a simple player and I think Vinnie often overplays. And that's not putting him down - he's mastered the instrument in a way few have achieved. It's just taste.

Criticisms are not necessarily put downs. I see no problem with not enjoying the style / approach of drummers whose talent you admire.
I totally agree with your last staement.
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  #194  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:04 PM
LanceG33 LanceG33 is offline
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Originally Posted by AndyMC View Post
I dislike metal the same way I dislike lots of music, it sounds ok but the guys behind it just aren't good enough to pull off what they are trying to do. Especially with the advanced patterns that many metalers play these days, my ear is good enough to hear any timing mistake and I'd rather hear something played correctly than something a little wilder with slight mistakes.
You should be careful. Between the sweeping dismissal of an entire genre of drummers and patting yourself on the back, you might pull an arm muscle.
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  #195  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by AndyMC View Post

I dislike metal the same way I dislike lots of music, it sounds ok but the guys behind it just aren't good enough to pull off what they are trying to do. Especially with the advanced patterns that many metalers play these days, my ear is good enough to hear any timing mistake and I'd rather hear something played correctly than something a little wilder with slight mistakes.
yr obviously not listening to any good metal

check out the drumming on any Meshuggah , Mastodon, Nile, East of the Wall, Dilliger Escape Plan, Every Time I Die, Sepultura record and tell me you dont hear good playing

if you can say you dont hear very nice drumming we may have to check your pulse

...and Im not the huge metal lover I once was but what about Vinnie Colaiuta playing with Megadeth or Stanton Moore playing with Corrosion of Conformity....you going to tell me there is no good drumming there?

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 03-28-2012 at 04:44 AM.
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  #196  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
How dous this "discriminated against" manifest itself Chunk?

I know Goths, Punks, Hippies (yes, still, being an ex myself) and they embrace and love the way they dress and the music they like and I don't believe any of them feel discriminated against.

I believe a part of the way they are likes to be slightly outside the norm, whatever that may be. If they get a "Look" from a suit it is mission accomplished, but discrimination will not come into it. I don't believe any of them have ever been refused entry to a shop or spat at in the street.

Perhaps you are being a little too sensitive. Dress the way you want, and listen to and play what you want. Its a free country and I would guess 99.9% of people wouldnt care if you wore a Tutu and spent your days humming the 1812 overture.
You're so out of touch it's unreal! Not everyone dresses like that just to annoy other people, some people just are who they are and don't do things for a reaction
This discrimination 'manifests' through things like people giving you dirty looks, being spat on, stones thrown at, heing chased by gangs of yobs, not getting a job because of tattoos or piercings, people assuming you're a druggie.
Fair enough, I don't get the bullying anymore because I'm a man now and fairly large.

Let me put this in perspective, in my town, 12 years ago, when I was 15, there was 1 black man, everyone knew his name, there was also 1 chinese kid in our school and 3 metallers. me and two of my mates.
We used to get shit constantly, everyday just for liking metal. People kicking us ofd our skateboards, even the adults used to get in on it, they thought it was a big joke. ever ran away from a group of 15 or so people? it looks more like 30 people, you're running with your skateboard in your hand, slowing you down, trying to pick the quickest route away, you're getting out of breathe, you can hear their footsteps getting louder behind you. You're weighing up whether to turn around and smash one of them in the face with your board, but you know you can't take them all...
Or being chased down backstreets on foot while they are in a car trying to run you over. Being kicked all over by 2 MEN when your 15 just 'cos it's 'funny to hit a goth'.

So don't tell me I'm being sensitive, you have no clue and the fact you take the subject so lightly tells me you've always been on the other side of the fence looking over thinking 'it's not that bad'. sure it isn't, just like 9/11 wasn't THAT bad, for me.... Ask somone who went through it though and it's a different story.

Sensitive? there's nothing left. Apart from zero tolerance to anything remotely reminding me of it

Last edited by Chunky; 03-28-2012 at 06:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #197  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chunky - Hellraizer View Post
the fact you take the subject so lightly tells me you've always been on the other side of the fence looking over thinking 'it's not that bad'. sure it isn't, just like 9/11 wasn't THAT bad, for me
That's a classic :D

Dude, you're taking yourself way too seriously. You chose metal as an identity because of who you are. I suspect you'd have got sh*t from people whichever way you expressed yourself as a teen
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  #198  
Old 03-28-2012, 07:44 PM
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Chunky Chunky is offline
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Originally Posted by Liebe zeit View Post
That's a classic :D

Dude, you're taking yourself way too seriously. You chose metal as an identity because of who you are. I suspect you'd have got sh*t from people whichever way you expressed yourself as a teen
How am I taking myself too seriously? I had loads of feiends up until I got metal then overnight it changed.
And this isn't just about metal, it's about discrimination and bullying in general. things were so bad when i was a kid because of people like you with this 'too serious' attitude. Sure, it's light hearted when you're not the one getting it everyday.
So whether you're being bullied or discriminated against because you're a metaller, your gay, black, white, you support the wrong team we ALL have to take it seriously 'cos one day it just might turn up and bite you or someone you know.

My area is different now, it seems being into metal is more accepted and theres certainly alot more people into it now. the school I used to go to has went from being the worst rated school to the best each year. It's different now, thank God but, like I said we all have to take it seriously no matter what the bullying and discrimination is for and you should be ashamed for putting me down for it.
wise up.

Oh and when you quote someone, quote the whole part and not just half of it so you can make a point. I stand by what I said. nothing is THAT bad for anyone who isn't affected by it. But that doesn't mean it's any less serious for the ones who were.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:03 PM
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Default Re: drum snobbery

Metal has clearly traumatized you. I think you need to break up with her.
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Old 03-28-2012, 08:39 PM
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Metal has clearly traumatized you. I think you need to break up with her.
Lol, I likes that one!

I just don't like anyone, metal or no, being bullied.
I really don't sit at home chewing over the world, I honestly don't care enough. I'm a relaxed chilled out guy, I'm just opinionated and unapolagetic.

This thread has really gone off topic!
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