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  #1  
Old 02-11-2012, 12:34 AM
drumbum081 drumbum081 is offline
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Default Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Should the drummer be banned from the recording studio after all the drum tracking is done? To me this seems like a power struggle which is unnecessary. No this is not regarding a session this is with a group in which the drummer does not get payed for his time. What are your thoughts?

Thanks!
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Sounds like a high school theater arts prima donna to me. Never heard of pros doing that. Never heard of anyone doing that.

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Old 02-11-2012, 01:39 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

^ What Bermuda said.

That said, many pros don't always stick around for the mixing process. Either because the band goes out on tour, or they take other gigs while waiting. But banned? That's just crazy.
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Why on earth shouldn't the drummer be there? Speaking personally, I really need to be there in 90% of mixes. Not just to "fight my corner", but to help steer the entire process.

BTW - I really enjoy putting the drums down quite late in the recording process. I almost always record that way for my own material.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Well the rest of the band said banned until after the first mix, which is being released to a select few. One of the parties who is in the studio says the drummer can't be there because they want the drummer to be the ear that hears the product fresh without hearing all the steps along the way.. but at the same time i feel as if they should find someone else to do it and not just alienate a member of the band.
Well anyways I won't turn this into a high school drama forum haha. Thanks all for the input!
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Sounds like a high school theater arts prima donna to me. Never heard of pros doing that. Never heard of anyone doing that.

Bermuda
what he said ^

that is absolutely ridiculous
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:28 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Ah yes, it's always helpful to get a informed non-musician's opinion [sic]

If they want fresh ears then they should leave a week between the first and second mix. Fresh ears are a benefit to the entire band.

Since they discussed this between themselves without asking your opinion, I think it's a pretty clear statement of where you fit in the band pecking order haha ... if you want to be treated as an equal you've got to be saying stuff like, "The minor 7 sounds too AM radio, try the sus 4 - it should add a bit more tension" ...
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:47 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Please tell me you were able to listen to the drum tracks immediately after you tracked them. If you were allowed to listen to them with critical ears and made all the necessary corrections then I guess it's not a total loss. I don't understand why you are being singled out. It would only benefit the project having you and the bass player sign off on the rhythm section first before everything else gets tracked. just mho.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

I do not know chord names but neither do any of them haha. I am always bringing new ideas to the songs though and quite of them have been used.
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Banned? Makes no sense to me.

I've opted out of certain parts of the session over the years......moreso when guitar overdubs or vox are being tracked and there really was no need for me to be present. But banned, as in not allowed to stay or specifically told I had to leave........never happened and I'd never allow it to if I was a contributing member of the band and not just a 'hired gun' for the sessions.

If this is your band we're talking about, I'd be wary. Somehow I doubt this will be the last issue you have with these guys.
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  #11  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Originally Posted by drumbum081 View Post
One of the parties who is in the studio says the drummer can't be there because they want the drummer to be the ear that hears the product fresh without hearing all the steps along the way..
Do you really think that person will then listen to the drummer's input after they've spent time mixing to their satisfaction?

Sounds like an excuse to me. Or a power thing as you first said. I assume this is you involved in this game of theirs? Maybe you should be glad you're not invited. What a lot of nonsense.

Bermuda
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

I have always been involved within my bands throughout the whole recording process, being present while the other band mates are recording their parts. :)

On a couple of the demo albums that I did with a band, the sound engineer, the singer and myself where responsible for the final mix as well, so, no I don't think the drummer should be banned from the studio, in a band situation, the drummer is a musician who's involved as much as any other musos in the band. :)
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  #13  
Old 02-11-2012, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

a lot of us drummers are a lot more than just guys who play drums

we are musicians, amateur producers, artists

guys who understand theory, play other instruments , and have loads of quality input during the tracking process

just as the other guys I play with also play some drums and are always there while I track

sometimes the best drum ideas come from someone who doesnt play drums at all because they are not thinking like a drummer would think

very unique ideas surface that way

same works vise versa

if im one of the artists in the band and not just a hired gun you better believe Ill be there for every second of the tracking process , as my fellow musicians expect me to be, and I them
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:15 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Originally Posted by drumbum081 View Post
No this is not regarding a session this is with a group in which the drummer does not get payed for his time. What are your thoughts?
My thought is if he's being treated like a second- or third-class citizen, AND not getting paid, he should walk.

Should bassists be banned from the studio once they lay their track on the drum track? Or guitarists? The answer would almost certainly be "no". Stand up.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:28 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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I do not know chord names but neither do any of them haha. I am always bringing new ideas to the songs though and quite of them have been used.
DB, if they don't know the chord names they don't have any business "banning" you from the other takes and mixes; I mean, they're hardly heavyweights. Come to think of it, I find it hard to imagine musicians who *do* know the chord names who would band their drummer from the rest of the sessions.

It might be worth putting your feelers out and seeing what else is out there. Production is so much fun and so rewarding (if mind-bogglingly frustrating and challenging at times) - I'd be really disappointed to be in a band that locked me out from those sessions.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:34 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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I mean, they're hardly heavyweights..........
Yep, sounds like amateur hour to me. Which is fine in its own right.......everybody's gotta start somewhere. But sounds like these cats are just stumbling around in the dark.

As I said earlier, be wary. Sounds like a waste of time, for mine.
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  #17  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:50 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

You walk away from a session like that without any explanation or second thoughts. Then you block those guys entirely out of your mind and start fresh in the morning. You've already spent too much time thinking about them here.
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  #18  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:36 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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You walk away from a session like that without any explanation or second thoughts. Then you block those guys entirely out of your mind and start fresh in the morning. You've already spent too much time thinking about them here.
Yup, I'll pretty much go with that. I'd probably pull any permission to use my drum tracks too, unless they're paying you obscene sums of money, then they can say or do what they like :)
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Yup, I'll pretty much go with that. I'd probably pull any permission to use my drum tracks too, unless they're paying you obscene sums of money, then they can say or do what they like :)
Well you need to be careful with that kind of threat because I don't see anyway of being able to enforce it (not easily anyway).

Without wanting to stir the pot, could there be any other reason they don't want you around for the mix? Might they be hiding the fact that they want to re-record the drum parts?
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Old 02-11-2012, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Without wanting to stir the pot, could there be any other reason they don't want you around for the mix? Might they be hiding the fact that they want to re-record the drum parts?
It could be the reason, but then, if it happened to me, I would appreciate a "thanks, but no thanks" attitude towards me with some kind of explanation and feedback, if any band mates or musicians feel or decides that the drum track are not "suitable" for whatever reasons, it could be for a very "acceptable" lack of execution or taste from my drumming, so in order to avoid such experiences in future recording sessions, at least I would expect such a level of integrity and honesty in a band situation, and if the other guys/girls cannot be bother to have a minimum of respect for my musicianship, well I certainely would join Matt's and Andy's opinions and leave the band with my appropriate comments :(
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Old 02-11-2012, 02:35 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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... well I certainely would join Matt's and Andy's opinions and leave the band with my appropriate comments :(
Right, these guys are just a little "amateur sneaky" or ignorant. They're not evil per se, meaning it's not worth all that much energy. I don't think you have to be dark or aggressive here...just ignore the fact that it ever happened and put it out of your mind. I'm sure the OP has figured by now that nothing is coming out of that recording anyway. And when you're dissed for volunteerism, there's really only one thing you can do...or you have no self respect, alongside other musicians finding out you'll allow yourself to be treated that way. You only allow embarrassment with payment.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:01 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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I don't think you have to be dark or aggressive here...
I didn't imply any dark or agressive feelings or comments in my last post, sorry if it can be read this way, it was not meant to be, I'm above these kind of battles and confrontation, and my comments to such a kind of band would have had a "positive" vibe in an attempt to review their approach to such a situation in the future, just for their own sake :)

The chance of me being embarrassed within such a context is not very likely, as I wouldn't probably have joined such a band in the first place, or at the very least, I would have left rather sooner than later, not upon a recording session some months later :)
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

I have done ghost drumming before, because the drummer did not have good timing. I would play the groove just like the other drummer, and his drums would get sampled over my groove. Its a dirty little secret in the recording world, and I felt bad for the other drummer when I have done it. On the other side of things, if you track good drums its the most boring thing to sit there and listen to the song recorded over and over and over. If my tracks are good or not I would prefer to be told the truth if anything on my part was modified, and hear what the final mix sounds like.
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Old 02-11-2012, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
I didn't imply any dark or agressive feelings or comments in my last post, sorry if it can be read this way, it was not meant to be, I'm above these kind of battles and confrontation, and my comments to such a kind of band would have had a "positive" vibe in an attempt to review their approach to such a situation in the future, just for their own sake :)

The chance of me being embarrassed within such a context is not very likely, as I wouldn't probably have joined such a band in the first place, or at the very least, I would have left rather sooner than later, not upon a recording session some months later :)
No, just Internet confusion. I was agreeing with your post :)
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Old 02-11-2012, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Drum Bum: As I'm probably the least experienced player on this thread, forgive me for asking, but what exactly is the relationship between you and the other band members? Are you a full-fledged member, or had you been brought in, as someone noted, to fill out another drummer's track? Not being paid suggests that you donated your time. Is there a reason why you would do that? As Matt said: was it volunteerism? Doing a friend a favor?

Just my thoughts, for what they're worth-I'd have to agree with the others. Walk away, and chalk it up to experience. In spite of what others might think, drummers are as much "musicians" as any other instrumental player. Your input is vital. Unless they've had issues with your input in the past, there seems to be no clear reason for banning you. You deserve better!
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:05 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Have you considered they might be trying to save your ego from seeing heavy elastic audio processing go down?
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Largely the people who don't want drummers sitting in on a mix are the ones who can't record drums for toffee.
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Have you considered they might be trying to save your ego from seeing heavy elastic audio processing go down?
I don't think that's the case here.

If you're part of the band,and this was a collaberative effort,then you have every right to be part of the final process.It does sound like although you're not quite being shown the door,you were possibly being handed your hat.

If you're services were in a different capacity,then clearly some compensation for your time and talent is indicated here.I would not give permission to use my drum tracks,till some kind of discussion takes place ,and some kind of clarity reguarding your capacity with this band is arrived at.I think in any event,the air needs to be cleared.The reason you were givenabout being banned,was thin and imature at best.

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Old 02-11-2012, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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I have done ghost drumming before, because the drummer did not have good timing. I would play the groove just like the other drummer, and his drums would get sampled over my groove. Its a dirty little secret in the recording world, and I felt bad for the other drummer when I have done it. On the other side of things, if you track good drums its the most boring thing to sit there and listen to the song recorded over and over and over. If my tracks are good or not I would prefer to be told the truth if anything on my part was modified, and hear what the final mix sounds like.
Ive done this many times

sometimes with the drummer of the band in the studio

recently a producer who I have been working with for years flew me out to LA for 3 days to track for this band that had just signed with Interscope that he was doing some pre pro with .

I listened to the tracks and the drumming actually sounded ok to me but he hated it so we re did the songs with the drummer in the studio with me

it was crazy awkward but my wife and I got an LA vacation and I got paid for tracking 10 songs

he also mentioned that I may have to play on the actual record when they record in 2 months with the understanding that I will not be credited on the album

but this time I will track drums in NY

the guy apparently just couldnt sound natural while playing to a click and that just happens to be one of my strong points
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

if they pay you money who gives a shit, the shorter amount of time the better
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

Hmm, while I don't think being totally 'banned' is a good thing, I'd be open minded about agreeing as a drummer to opt out of the post-drum mixing, at least trying that out as a way of working, different bands work in different ways.

Personally, I'm a perfectionist and I'm NEVER happy with a take. As soon as something is played back to me I say "nah, that was shit, I'll do that again" when it's upto me judging what I hear, I do literally hundreds of takes, and the more takes I do the more obsessive and critical I become, and because I'm listening to a raw mix each time makes me think every take sounds like shit when it would actually sound pretty decent once mixed and mastered. In some situations and with the right people, me not hearing the drums until a near final mix of the song could be a huge time and energy saver.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Originally Posted by DriveintheDanLane View Post
Have you considered they might be trying to save your ego from seeing heavy elastic audio processing go down?
I'm not trying to come off as egotistical but I know that's not the case. I've heard the drum tracks they are all solid and I have experience in the studio.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:18 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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I'm not trying to come off as egotistical but I know that's not the case. I've heard the drum tracks they are all solid and I have experience in the studio.
Sorry I missed this but I remember you now - you posted some really excellent tracks a while ago! My excuse is that we get a lot of DrumBums here and I get confused easily.

Yep, I agree - you're rock solid. There'd be no point replacing your tracks.

Is this the band with the awesome singer / songwriter on those tracks you posted? If so, then that changes things (at least for me).
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:27 AM
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Well you need to be careful with that kind of threat because I don't see anyway of being able to enforce it (not easily anyway).
Yes, you're right. Outside of a professional contractual arrangement, it's a non starter. I put that in more as a parting shot kinda deal if they were disrespectful.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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if they pay you money who gives a shit, the shorter amount of time the better
Well, that's one approach.

Another way to go at it is with a sense of standards and pride in your work as well as the final result.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:31 PM
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Well, that's one approach.

Another way to go at it is with a sense of standards and pride in your work as well as the final result.
I was thinking the same thing

but as far as most hired guns go they will basically track, get paid, and off to the next

this could be the approach Toddy is referring to

I was lucky enough a bunch of years ago to tag along with Bernard Purdie for a day here in Jersey while he went from studio to studio and tracked songs

at one studio we stopped at he tracked 4 songs, each one for a different artist who was not present. Just the engineer, some rough rhythm tracks, a scratch vocal, and a click

he would sit down, play the song once or maybe twice, his manager would collect a check and we would leave and on to the next stop

I bet he tracked 15 or 20 songs that day and had absolutely zero personal or musical attachment to any of them

strictly business
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

If you have already agreed to it, I would suggest keeping your word.

If not I suggest that you line them up with a new drummer, if you can...then move on to another project....all done with good attitude and graciousness.

Keep your reputation clean...fulfill what you promise...and dont make bad promises twice!..or trust bad businessmen once you spot them.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Sorry I missed this but I remember you now - you posted some really excellent tracks a while ago! My excuse is that we get a lot of DrumBums here and I get confused easily.

Yep, I agree - you're rock solid. There'd be no point replacing your tracks.

Is this the band with the awesome singer / songwriter on those tracks you posted? If so, then that changes things (at least for me).

That is the one, trying to keep band issues anonymous. Thanks for the kind words. I'm eager to hear your new thoughts on the manner. S****y thing is this band does have a real future if we keep working. We do have some opportunities to turn this full time and get some people behind us coming up real quick. I don't want to turn this full time if I am not going to be respected and valued.

Last edited by drumbum081; 02-14-2012 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:02 AM
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  #39  
Old 02-14-2012, 05:07 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Originally Posted by drumbum081 View Post
S****y thing is this band does have a real future if we keep working. We do have some opportunities to turn this full time and get some people behind us coming up real quick. I don't want to turn this full time if I am not going to be respected and valued.
Dude, I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I'm really not, but without even needing to hear it, most who work a good bit will tell you this particular band has no chance at all. They behave like amateurs, and don't see you as an equal or they would have clued you in on their silly idea beforehand. Trust me...no one in the music business deals with people like this...and if they do it's to steal something from them because they know they have an easy mark.

Eventually this turns into the girlfriend who cheated right in front of you...that you still want back because you're sure it will never happen again...when 1. It was a cheap amateur move to begin with. And 2. It will most certainly happen again.

Let it go...let it go...
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:55 AM
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Default Re: Should the drummer be banned from the studio post-drum tracking?

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Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
I bet he tracked 15 or 20 songs that day and had absolutely zero personal or musical attachment to any of them

strictly business
Exactly.
Time is money after all, and studio time is expensive.

^ agreed @ what matt said
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