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  #1  
Old 11-28-2011, 11:55 AM
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Default KIS likes ply shells!

Ok guys, it's come to my attention that, if you're selective with my posts, some of you are picking up the impression that I'm unduly biased towards solid shell drums. Of course, I do think they're wonderful, but I also recognise they're not for everyone. So, by way of correction, I just want to say, I LOVE PLY DRUMS TOO! I'm especially a fan of ply shell makers that bring something different to the party. Amongst my favourites are; Sonor, Kumu, Brady, & Highwood.
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:42 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

This sounds like a PR stunt..... lol
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

Geez, take it easy Andy. This continual heavy handed barrage towards ply shells is a bit over the top mate. For a more balanced approach you really sould consider the merits of a stave shell. Wouldn't kill you to recommend one once in a while would it? It's always ply, ply, ply and ply again where you're concerned.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:01 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by latzanimal View Post
This sounds like a PR stunt..... lol
That it may, but it really isn't. There's some ply stuff I've tried over the years that's seriously good. In addition to that, I've played ply shell drums across many years, & still gig now with my Spaun kit. I'm playing it tonight, & I'll be doing a ton of gigs with it next month. It sounds great, although I will replace it next year for something a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Geez, take it easy Andy. This continual heavy handed barrage towards ply shells is a bit over the top mate. For a more balanced approach you really sould consider the merits of a stave shell. Wouldn't kill you to recommend one once in a while would it? It's always ply, ply, ply and ply again where you're concerned.
Haha, I knew I could count on you to extract the urine :) :)
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I will replace it next year for something a lot better.
See, you did it again. :) You do it without even knowing you do it. They aren't better, just different. I would also like to add Mapex to the doing something different with ply shells to your list. The new Black Panther line is really throwing together different wood types, bearing edges, re-rings, and thicknesses all within the same line.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2011, 01:21 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

And by better you mean stave constructed, right?

heh
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I would also like to add Mapex to the doing something different with ply shells to your list.
Until Mapex can make me a jarrah block shell, they have no place here. This is a stave shell thread and I'd like it to remain so (and secretly, so would Andy).
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2011, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Until Mapex can make me a jarrah block shell, they have no place here. This is a stave shell thread and I'd like it to remain so (and secretly, so would Andy).
He brought it up buddy. Look at the title. It is about loving ply shells. :) Stay with the tour.
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Old 11-28-2011, 02:29 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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He brought it up buddy. Look at the title. It is about loving ply shells. :) Stay with the tour.
You're gonna be late to your own funeral mate. :-)
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  #10  
Old 11-28-2011, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos_Inferno View Post
And by better you mean stave constructed, right?

heh
Well, you'll be surprised to hear, no, not stave.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
See, you did it again. :) You do it without even knowing you do it. They aren't better, just different.
& you're wrong too Sticks. The replacement live kit for next year is better. I've tested it, & it hammers the Spaun in every category.

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I would also like to add Mapex to the doing something different with ply shells to your list. The new Black Panther line is really throwing together different wood types, bearing edges, re-rings, and thicknesses all within the same line.
I'd add them to my list too, except I haven't tried them, & my list wasn't exhaustive, just a few examples. I will point out one thing though, I'm absolutely not convinced that mixing woods in a ply construction makes much of a difference. With the exception of hardness & finish, the inside ply is no more important than any other layer in the ply. The shell resonates as a mass, not in layers, & mixing woods only serves to further water down the distinctive sonic character of a wood species.

Aside from that detail, I applaud any maker, but especially a mass maker such as Mapex, for experimenting with different constructions.

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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
This is a stave shell thread and I'd like it to remain so (and secretly, so would Andy).
Sorry to disagree old mate, but no, really, this is about my love of ply shells. Of course, stave is my favourite all round construction, & I could bore everyone with the reasons why, but ply shells of quality have much to offer.
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:19 PM
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Old 11-28-2011, 03:20 PM
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  #11  
Old 11-28-2011, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

OK. You guys are right, and I am wrong. Hope that helps. :)
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  #12  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
OK. You guys are right, and I am wrong. Hope that helps. :)
Not at all. Your assumption was that I was intimating that solid shells are better than ply, I wasn't. I was saying that my new kit is better than my existing one. In that respect only, you were incorrect. Nothing more to it than that :)
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  #13  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:22 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Ok guys, it's come to my attention that, if you're selective with my posts, some of you are picking up the impression that I'm unduly biased towards solid shell drums. Of course, I do think they're wonderful, but I also recognise they're not for everyone. So, by way of correction, I just want to say, I LOVE PLY DRUMS TOO! I'm especially a fan of ply shell makers that bring something different to the party. Amongst my favourites are; Sonor, Kumu, Brady, & Highwood.
HA! I've been accused of solid shell snobbery as well. Agreed about ply makers that bring something different.
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  #14  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I would also like to add Mapex to the doing something different with ply shells to your list. The new Black Panther line is really throwing together different wood types, bearing edges, re-rings, and thicknesses all within the same line.
I somehow knew you were going to mention Mapex before I even read your post. Then again: Isn't every Ply-Shell company trying to do something different with mixing woods, trying out different bearing edges, different re-rings and thicknesses? If I skip through ten catalogues from ten different drumbuilders I'm sure each and every one of them wants to make me believe that the way that they are building shells is something completely different from what all the rest is doing.
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  #15  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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I somehow knew you were going to mention Mapex before I even read your post. Then again: Isn't every Ply-Shell company trying to do something different with mixing woods, trying out different bearing edges, different re-rings and thicknesses? If I skip through ten catalogues from ten different drumbuilders I'm sure each and every one of them wants to make me believe that the way that they are building shells is something completely different from what all the rest is doing.
So should I just not mention them at all. Is that the problem? You are free to mention what another company is doing. Why does everyone get so bent out of shape when I mention what Mapex is doing. I have to hear about Ludwig, and BB snares all day long.
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  #16  
Old 11-28-2011, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

I absolutely believe that different woods change the sound of a drum. I think all the drum companies around the world believe the same thing. I have the proof in my basement. I will have further proof in a couple of weeks.
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  #17  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

All the greatest drum tones I gush over were likely ply drums. With the exception of the Gurus, of course. They are the best I've heard.
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  #18  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I absolutely believe that different woods change the sound of a drum. I think all the drum companies around the world believe the same thing. I have the proof in my basement. I will have further proof in a couple of weeks.
Absolutely agree 100%. Different woods do change the sound of a drum. Specifically, mixing woods also changes the sound of a drum. By mixing, you're blending sound characteristics. Personally, I don't like that. I like to hear the individuality that a single species brings to the table, but I accept that's a very personal point of view. What I do disagree with is the prominence attributed to the contribution of the inner ply in relation to the other plies. Outside of surface finish, & to a lesser degree, hardness, it's contribution is linear with the rest of the shell as a percentage of the overall mass.

What really switches me off is paying lip service to wood choices simply as a marketing angle, without the construction fully exploiting the character of the wood species. A good drum, like any instrument, is a total concept, & simply changing the wood, without due consideration of other design elements, is, at best, a missed opportunity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
All the greatest drum tones I gush over were likely ply drums. With the exception of the Gurus, of course. They are the best I've heard.
Thanks Larry, I completely agree. Virtually all of the greatest drum sounds of all time have been generated on ply shelled drums.
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  #19  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
So should I just not mention them at all. Is that the problem? You are free to mention what another company is doing. Why does everyone get so bent out of shape when I mention what Mapex is doing. I have to hear about Ludwig, and BB snares all day long.

Would you mind to fill me in exactly where I got bent out of shape? I also didn't mention any problems, you just made that up.

I was just saying that I knew you were going to mention Mapex before I read your post. I didn't say I was having any problems with that at any point. I just found it funnily predictable.

You say that you have to hear about Ludwig and BB (what is BB?) all day long? Does that bother you? If so: Why? From whom? I've been here for many years and have never read anything about Ludwig that I didn't want to read - cannot be so difficult to avoid them as it seems :) I don't even know what BB is, but if you hear about it all day long and don't want to hear about it, maybe just don't click on threads about BB (whatever BB is).
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

Why then do drums made with different inner woods, like my Saturns, sound so unique. This is not just my opinion. It is a common one.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by SickRick View Post
Would you mind to fill me in exactly where I got bent out of shape? I also didn't mention any problems, you just made that up.

I was just saying that I knew you were going to mention Mapex before I read your post. I didn't say I was having any problems with that at any point. I just found it funnily predictable.

You say that you have to hear about Ludwig and BB (what is BB?) all day long? Does that bother you? If so: Why? From whom? I've been here for many years and have never read anything about Ludwig that I didn't want to read - cannot be so difficult to avoid them as it seems :) I don't even know what BB is, but if you hear about it all day long and don't want to hear about it, maybe just don't click on threads about BB (whatever BB is).
Its ok man. I am just having a sensitive day. Sorry for coming across insecure. BB is Black Beauty. Snare made by Ludwig. Apparently the best sounding drum in the world. :)
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  #22  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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(what is BB?)
BB is short hand for Black Beauty snares
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  #23  
Old 11-28-2011, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Why then do drums made with different inner woods, like my Saturns, sound so unique. This is not just my opinion. It is a common one.
They sound the same as any other quality drum made from the same materials. You don't seem to be understanding my point. Read my post below, & you'll see I'm consistent in stating that changing the wood, even in a sandwich construction, changes the sound. The only aspect I'm refuting is the often made claim that the inner ply's influence on the sound is dis-proportunately greater than the rest of the shell.
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Old 11-28-2011, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
They sound the same as any other quality drum made from the same materials. You don't seem to be understanding my point. Read my post below, & you'll see I'm consistent in stating that changing the wood, even in a sandwich construction, changes the sound. The only aspect I'm refuting is the often made claim that the inner ply's influence on the sound is dis-proportunately greater than the rest of the shell.
Ok. I can live with that. Everything about a drum shapes its sound. It is how all the variables are put together that gives each drum its unique sound.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Its ok man. I am just having a sensitive day. Sorry for coming across insecure. BB is Black Beauty. Snare made by Ludwig. Apparently the best sounding drum in the world. :)
BB stands for Black Beauty? Interesting. I've played on one of these before and I know that many people love those, but I wouldn't call it the best sounding drum in the world. It certainly fits some genres really well though, so if you play these exclusively it might be the right snare.

I do have a question for you though, as you seem to be brand loyal with Mapex: Would you mix drums in your setup? If for example you would find a Snare you like from a different company than your Mapex drums, would you integrate it in your setup or must it be a Mapex exclusive setup?
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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BB stands for Black Beauty? Interesting. I've played on one of these before and I know that many people love those, but I wouldn't call it the best sounding drum in the world. It certainly fits some genres really well though, so if you play these exclusively it might be the right snare.

I do have a question for you though, as you seem to be brand loyal with Mapex: Would you mix drums in your setup? If for example you would find a Snare you like from a different company than your Mapex drums, would you integrate it in your setup or must it be a Mapex exclusive setup?
Actually I am more Saturn loyal, than Mapex, but I do like a lot of their stuff. To answer your question, my main snare is a Danny Carey signature snare. It is Bronze which is my choice of material for snares.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:22 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

Great quote! I love them too...

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I LOVE PLY DRUMS TOO! .
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

I LOVE DRUMS!

I could give a rats ass what they're made of nor how they're made as long as they sound good when hit with a blunt object.

Sorry I just had to say that.

As I was reading this thread, it was making me chuckle at how silly we can be defending our opinions , yet at the end of the day it all boils down to one thing... Musicianship!
Drums of any material can sound great in the hands of a great Musician!
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  #29  
Old 11-28-2011, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
HA! I've been accused of solid shell snobbery as well. Agreed about ply makers that bring something different.
You really can't say that this is a baseless accusation DMC. As I recall you listed ply drum construction in the "dumbest ideas" thread.

I have never played even a stave/steambent/solid snare but I hear wonderful things about them. They tend to be more expensive than ply drums which I believe does lead to a bit of snobbery. Sort of like the "Bose Effect" where people feel something is better simply because they paid a lot for it.

Not saying that these drums don't sound killer. I've seen a few Brady and Guru drums that had me drooling on the screen.
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  #30  
Old 11-28-2011, 09:08 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

I'm a fan of solid shells when they're "dried out" through tuning. I'm a fan of ply shells when they're "wet" through tuning. Is there a middle ground? Can somebody please make the 2-ply shells of yesteryear? Anyone? Bueller?

KIS: thanks for coming down off your high horse on top of that pedestal. Us lowly ply-lovers feel absolved from our transgressions when you do. :P
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
See, you did it again. :) You do it without even knowing you do it. They aren't better, just different. I would also like to add Mapex to the doing something different with ply shells to your list. The new Black Panther line is really throwing together different wood types, bearing edges, re-rings, and thicknesses all within the same line.
I'm a big fan of the Mapex stuff too Sticks. I have a Mapex cherry kit and it most definitely is the kit I will never swap.

I have a steam bent snare Andy, but I am having a hard time getting on with it. i loved it in the shop, brought in my other snares as a comparrison, got it home, changed the head but it has never really settled in. Anything I should do that I am not doing?
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

Ian Paice says - To be a drummer you also have to be a musician.

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I LOVE DRUMS!
Drums of any material can sound great in the hands of a great Musician!
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  #33  
Old 11-28-2011, 11:56 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Absolutely agree 100%. Different woods do change the sound of a drum. Specifically, mixing woods also changes the sound of a drum. By mixing, you're blending sound characteristics. Personally, I don't like that.
This is exactly why I was never enthused with Pearl's Reference series of drums. Virtually every drum is made out of a different plys of three different conglomerations of wood, maple, birch and mahogany. I believe only the 12" tom is fully a maple shell, all the rest have two of something in them, lol.

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Old 11-29-2011, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

I actually love really good players playing really good drums. Andy does enough work with his band and they sound pretty dang good going about their business. I don't care if he's playing his Gurus or the Spauns. That's what it's all about.

Since I'll never own a Guru kit, I'll just have to plan a vacation to England and go over to Andy's house to play his. Although, I initially got the feeling that guru was about to release some ply drums too ;)
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  #35  
Old 11-29-2011, 10:21 AM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by last man to bat View Post
I'm a big fan of the Mapex stuff too Sticks. I have a Mapex cherry kit and it most definitely is the kit I will never swap.

I have a steam bent snare Andy, but I am having a hard time getting on with it. i loved it in the shop, brought in my other snares as a comparrison, got it home, changed the head but it has never really settled in. Anything I should do that I am not doing?
Although I'm loathe to discuss a non ply drum on this thread, what's the drum doing, or not doing, that causes you concern?

Steam bent single ply drums are the prima donnas of the drum world. If correctly constructed, they perform exceptionally well in certain circumstances, but not so in others. They're not for everyone. If you imagine the perfect vintage jazz sound, or the ideal open early rock sound, then solid steam bent will get you there on steroids. There's maybe 2 or 3 builders globally who can consistently build a quality steam bent kit, & it's so easy to get the construction wrong if you don't know what you're doing. I've played some steam bent snares (mostly ones made by the individual using off the shelf shells) that sounded just terrible. Again, with poor construction, they can be an overtone hell. Steam bent shell construction offers the ultimate in shell resonance, but that resonance needs to be focussed by the overall design, & "tamed" to concentrate on the fundamental tone. There's a reason why very few builders make steam bent stuff, especially full kits, & it's not just about the difficulty in making them, it's also about the difficulty in getting them right.

LMTB, please PM me with details, & I'll do my best to help out.


Everyone else: Thanks for chiming on on an intentionally light hearted thread :)
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  #36  
Old 11-29-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: KIS likes ply shells!

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Originally Posted by pwrplay View Post
I LOVE DRUMS!
Drums of any material can sound great in the hands of a great Musician!
I know my drums always sound great. hehehe!

Seriously though, I've been reading a lot here on Drummersworld. I never thought about the wood too much because I don't make that kind of money, unfortunately. Even if I get good birch or maple ply shells, what I found out from reading is that the drums in my price range have hoops that are too thin (1.3 mm) and if something happens to them you can't tune those drums properly anyway. Also, they go out of tune easier too.
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