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  #161  
Old 12-16-2009, 06:48 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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I don't see drummers as some hierarchic pyramid with Dave Weckl on the top and Meg White on the bottom. I just enjoy what I enjoy, you know, like 99.9% of people who listen to music?.
Wrong guy at the top and wrong girl at the bottom IMHO. Be careful with pyramids though, there's a lot of slaves to a lost cause buried in them.
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  #162  
Old 12-16-2009, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

OK everybody could you please cool your respective jets? Please, I don't want to run the risk of losing anyone here like the way Jay Norem went. I'm far too fond of all of you, and don't want to see this degrade any further. No one is going to change anyone's mind so let's drop it. Please, no more barbs. Don't make me come over there!

Everyone knows where everyone else stands, like it or not, so let's move on! We read the book, saw the movie, and got souveniors. This dead horse won't get any deader.
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  #163  
Old 12-16-2009, 10:15 PM
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OK everybody could you please cool your respective jets? Please, I don't want to run the risk of losing anyone here like the way Jay Norem went. I'm far too fond of all of you, and don't want to see this degrade any further. No one is going to change anyone's mind so let's drop it. Please, no more barbs. Don't make me come over there!

Everyone knows where everyone else stands, like it or not, so let's move on! We read the book, saw the movie, and got souveniors. This dead horse won't get any deader.
Yeah, I almost posted some needles personal attacks and provocation here after the recent posts. But now that I have calmed down maybe I just leave the discussion to run it's course. Thanks to all who participated, you all gave me a lot to think about. Let's all enjoy playing, whatever it is and whoever with it may be. The horse is dead.
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  #164  
Old 12-16-2009, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

How would guys feel if someone said this about you?
"I can't play for crap and I sound terrible but I'm just as good as you and your chops because I have 'feel' and I play with emotion." Sure. Keep living in that dream world.
I'm sorry, guys. I didn't want to bite and ignored it at first but if when someone misrepresents your views and tells you you're playing is crap - and then reiterates it - it's hard to bite your tongue. It's a lot easier to stand back when you're not the target, and later comments made it very obvious who the main target was. I find that really upsetting.

Unfortunately, the argument messed up this thread but I couldn't let that go by unchallenged. Would you?
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  #165  
Old 12-17-2009, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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How would guys feel if someone said this about you?
"I can't play for crap and I sound terrible but I'm just as good as you and your chops because I have 'feel' and I play with emotion." Sure. Keep living in that dream world.
I'm sorry, guys. I didn't want to bite and ignored it at first but if when someone misrepresents your views and tells you you're playing is crap - and then reiterates it - it's hard to bite your tongue. It's a lot easier to stand back when you're not the target, and later comments made it very obvious who the main target was. I find that really upsetting.

Unfortunately, the argument messed up this thread but I couldn't let that go by unchallenged. Would you?
Polly, I understand how you feel. And I know you're recovering from surgery. And you're right it is easy when I'm not the target. But you are probably at the top of the list of the most liked people around here. If you couldn't get your membership revoked I'd say have at em. I just don't want to see you (or anyone else) get the boot. That would ruin my holiday.
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  #166  
Old 12-17-2009, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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How would guys feel if someone said this about you?
"I can't play for crap and I sound terrible but I'm just as good as you and your chops because I have 'feel' and I play with emotion." Sure. Keep living in that dream world.
I'm sorry, guys. I didn't want to bite and ignored it at first but if when someone misrepresents your views and tells you you're playing is crap - and then reiterates it - it's hard to bite your tongue. It's a lot easier to stand back when you're not the target, and later comments made it very obvious who the main target was. I find that really upsetting.

Unfortunately, the argument messed up this thread but I couldn't let that go by unchallenged. Would you?
Is everything about you? Holy crap. That Carly Simon song came up on my Itunes again. Weird. Listening to the lyrics I wonder if it wasn't about James Taylor. Nah. Couldn't be. Wait. What were we talking about?
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  #167  
Old 12-17-2009, 02:59 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

Average, could you please stop provoking Polly, she's in pain.
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  #168  
Old 12-17-2009, 03:01 AM
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The argument that "I used to think like X but these days I think like Y because I know better" is just false
JPW.
Hi mate.
Look, it's not false. The role of the drummer has always been the same. To supply groove, time and pulse. No matter what the band or the type of music. In some bands there might be more leeway as to what the drummer can do. In others not. The point is that the drummer's role is determined by his or her gig.

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We can only conclude that if you want to keep your job you propably had to play what they asked you to play, that still doesn't destroy my points about how it all just originates from this "music industrialized" culture and not from the objective superiority of the music type in question.
This is true and I do not disagree. However, what I fail to understand the attitude toward one rhythm being inferior simply because it is played within an a "music industrialized" culture. The reason for my thoughts in this is because in listening to the music of many cultures one comes across various rhythms that are used more than others. The chachacha in Afro Cuban music, for example could be seen as the style's "money beat". This does not detract from the rhythms power, acceptability, durability and danceability.

I need to ask some questions. Do you refuse to play the money beat, no matter what the circumstances? Do you believe the rhythm itself is inferior to other rhythms? Should drummers refuse to play it?

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Even more predictable is that the people with no chops have come out in force to declare that people with chops have no "feel." Hehehe.
I cannot speak for everyone, but this is absolutely untrue of myself. I've spent hundreds of thousands of hours developing technical prowess. My point has always been that drummers should not play only and for themselves, but should treat the music with respect and play what is suitable. Many drummers fail to do this. I know because I've had to play with many of them and it is a shockingly dreadful experience. I want younger drummers to learn this point. We professionals are professionals because we do not place our chops before the music. We use it in servive to the music. It may not seem much but it makes a hell of a difference and it's why we get called back.

Last edited by wy yung; 12-17-2009 at 03:14 AM.
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  #169  
Old 12-17-2009, 09:07 AM
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Yeah, I almost posted some needles personal attacks and provocation here after the recent posts. But now that I have calmed down maybe I just leave the discussion to run it's course. Thanks to all who participated, you all gave me a lot to think about. Let's all enjoy playing, whatever it is and whoever with it may be. The horse is dead.
And thanks for you views JPW. Well put and you represented your stance with vigor. I like that.
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  #170  
Old 12-17-2009, 09:20 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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I'm sorry, guys. I didn't want to bite and ignored it at first but if when someone misrepresents your views and tells you you're playing is crap - and then reiterates it - it's hard to bite your tongue. It's a lot easier to stand back when you're not the target, and later comments made it very obvious who the main target was. I find that really upsetting.

Unfortunately, the argument messed up this thread but I couldn't let that go by unchallenged. Would you?
Polly, although I can't answer specifics on behalf of average, I'd say that quite a few players on DW were in Average's mind when he made these comments, despite retraction, me included. Not fair to single yourself out but I understand your feeling of insult. It should always be possible for someone to represent their views without getting overtly negative about someone else's stance. That hasn't happened in this case and it's regrettable.
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  #171  
Old 12-17-2009, 01:14 PM
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I've spent hundreds of thousands of hours developing technical prowess. My point has always been that drummers should not play only and for themselves, but should treat the music with respect and play what is suitable. Many drummers fail to do this. I know because I've had to play with many of them and it is a shockingly dreadful experience. I want younger drummers to learn this point. We professionals are professionals because we do not place our chops before the music. We use it in servive to the music. It may not seem much but it makes a hell of a difference and it's why we get called back.
We agree 100%. I've said exactly what is quoted above over and over again. I think a lot of guys turn every song into a 'look at me' chops fest because they lack confidence. What you and every other accomplished drummer have in common is the practice to develop technical skills. There is no way around it. You have to practice and you have to have a certain level of technique to be able to handle a variety of musical situations. Again, we agree on this point absolutely.

I don't see how that notion is controversial, but it is.
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  #172  
Old 12-17-2009, 01:21 PM
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II've spent hundreds of thousands of hours developing technical prowess.
So, you have practiced all your life over 14 hours a day every day and are now over 70 years old? I don't believe you. And when do you actually play in a band? Don't you sleep? =P That's just silly thing to say.
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  #173  
Old 12-17-2009, 01:47 PM
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Well i have sat back and read what has been said and took it in with great interest and feel that i maybe partly responsible for why this has started.

I stated my preference of feel drummers over technically gifted drummers. I never slated one or the other but i have always had something in my mind about feel drummers are drummers who are born with a natural sense of rhythm and can do things on the set without having to think about it to make it sound perfect. There are many drummers like this, not me unfortunately but i have absolute admiration for those who are. I do have an amount of feel when it comes to certain types of music especially funk but as for jazz, swing - not a chance it just aint going to happen.

As for technically gifted drummers whom some are my favourite drummers of all time, Virgil Donati, Thomas Lang, Mike Portnoy etc. I think they are fantastic and i aspire to be like these someday although i won't be anywhere near as good because i don't have that amount of time on my hands. I'm not saying one is better than the other because they can all do things which add to a song and make it awesome and that is what being a musician is all about, for sure. But as for being a drummer and someone who can make the kit sound good in improv or a solo that is where i think feel has the advantage and that is why i prefer it.

I hope i have clarified this enough.
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  #174  
Old 12-17-2009, 10:22 PM
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As for technically gifted drummers whom some are my favourite drummers of all time, Virgil Donati, Thomas Lang, Mike Portnoy etc.
I don't want to start one more side discussion, but I've been stunned several times in this forum about what drummers get named together right in the same sentence sometimes.
Virgil and Thomas are technically outstanding of course, but while Virgil plays awesome complex stuff (in musical context too), and - for those who know him - did some beautifully tasty stuff on recordings, Thomas basically just plays very fast, plus some overlapping polyrhythmic and polymetric stuff, which many many drummers are able to do also. Finally to put Mike Portnoy there (and for the record, I've been quite a DT fan and I still like and respect Mike's work) is about as ridiculous to me as putting i.e. Buddy Rich and Phil Collins together.
I don't quite get if people sometimes just put some of the names they think of as "technical" together in a rather disparaging way of putting them in a box, or if they know every one of them well enough to compare?
Honest thoughts on that? - And I'm sorry JT1 to take just your example, but it just hit me again, and now I want to know :)!
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  #175  
Old 12-17-2009, 10:35 PM
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Well i have sat back and read what has been said and took it in with great interest and feel that i maybe partly responsible for why this has started.
Not in the slightest, JT. You and JP have put forth perfectly valid viewpoints. There is a "certain person" who decided he didn't like the thread's premise and decided to kill it. Hey Certain Person - you really got me good with the Carly Simon joke ho ho ho! That had us all fooled.

Can we just talk now as though the Certain Person wasn't and isn't here? Treat it as an annoying mosquito buzz. Ans thanks KIS and especially Larry for sticking up for me. Yesterday was a bad day - lots of inflammation, pain and goo. Woken up much better today, thankfully.

JT, I agree. Some of my fave drummers are beasts too - but when they play the $ beat they play it really well ... which is, after all, what this is all about - not just what you do but how you do it.

I read somewhere Stevie Wonder's drumming in Superstition by itself was uneven and didn't sound very good. But when you put it with the music, it's spot on. That's the subjective side of drumming - being able (and willing!) to combine harmoniously with other sounds around you. Kind of like conversation, really. Some people know how to be harmonious, others have no clue.

Stevie is a great example of a natural, as you say, and I doubt that he spent hours and hours playing rudiments and exercises. Of course that kind of talent is as rare as hen's teeth and everyone else has to sweat buckets to achieve the same thing.

Actually JP, Wy practises absolutely crazy hours and has told me that this has come at the expense of other aspects of his life. He is the kind of player who, if he walked into a music shop and decided to try out a kit, there'd be a crowd gathered around. Plays a damn tight money beat too :)
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  #176  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:09 PM
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Not in the slightest, JT. You and JP have put forth perfectly valid viewpoints. There is a "certain person" who decided he didn't like the thread's premise and decided to kill it. Hey Certain Person - you really got me good with the Carly Simon joke ho ho ho! That had us all fooled.

Can we just talk now as though the Certain Person wasn't and isn't here? Treat it as an annoying mosquito buzz. Ans thanks KIS and especially Larry for sticking up for me. Yesterday was a bad day - lots of inflammation, pain and goo. Woken up much better today, thankfully.

JT, I agree. Some of my fave drummers are beasts too - but when they play the $ beat they play it really well ... which is, after all, what this is all about - not just what you do but how you do it.

I read somewhere Stevie Wonder's drumming in Superstition by itself was uneven and didn't sound very good. But when you put it with the music, it's spot on. That's the subjective side of drumming - being able (and willing!) to combine harmoniously with other sounds around you. Kind of like conversation, really. Some people know how to be harmonious, others have no clue.

Stevie is a great example of a natural, as you say, and I doubt that he spent hours and hours playing rudiments and exercises. Of course that kind of talent is as rare as hen's teeth and everyone else has to sweat buckets to achieve the same thing.

Actually JP, Wy practises absolutely crazy hours and has told me that this has come at the expense of other aspects of his life. He is the kind of player who, if he walked into a music shop and decided to try out a kit, there'd be a crowd gathered around. Plays a damn tight money beat too :)
I wonder what it must be like to think that everything written in a thread is about you. Certainly it wouldn't be you that I was referring to in my posts. I mentioned your name in a thread one time. So whatever you are reading into my posts is your issue and is inside your head. You aren't expressing adaptive preference are you? Does that shoe fit you? I can't imagine that it does.

I also wonder what it must be like to think that you can silence someone who is expressing an idea that you don't like. I'm sure whoever that 'certain person' is you are referring to will go on posting whether you like it or not.

Now why don't you go and take a few hours and compose something witty and insulting to that 'certain person'. You'd better take a while because I expect more out of you as a writer and daughter of a writer. Better yet, why don't you do what you really want to do and enlist the help of a mod to get that 'certain person' banned. Then it will be all one big happy group-think family again and we can all be safe and warm inside our little bubble. I gotta go play.
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  #177  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

All you have to do is state your views with some modicum of respect and decency but you love all the attention you get from going in all guns blazing.

Yes, yes we all know that practice makes perfect *yawwwwn*. Do you have a point that hasn't been made on this site 3,876,438 times?

Did you have anything to say about the money beat or just how "certain people" "can't play for crap"?

Last edited by Pollyanna; 12-17-2009 at 11:40 PM.
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  #178  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:26 PM
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Actually JP, Wy practises absolutely crazy hours and has told me that this has come at the expense of other aspects of his life. He is the kind of player who, if he walked into a music shop and decided to try out a kit, there'd be a crowd gathered around. Plays a damn tight money beat too :)
I can believe THAT, but I can't believe "hunders of thousands of hours". We got to eat and sleep and do other stuff, even buy new drums, play in a band. I wouldn't consider everything you do "practicing for technical prowess". But this is completely off topic. I'm just a perfectionist by nature and when I read numbers I'm the first one with a calculator in my hand.

On topic BTW, can you name one technical guru who can't play money beat well?
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  #179  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:37 PM
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I can believe THAT, but I can't believe "hunders of thousands of hours". We got to eat and sleep and do other stuff, even buy new drums, play in a band. I wouldn't consider everything you do "practicing for technical prowess". But this is completely off topic. I'm just a perfectionist by nature and when I read numbers I'm the first one with a calculator in my hand.

On topic BTW, can you name one technical guru who can't play money beat well?
Well, 10 hours a day played 300 days a year for forty years gets you to 120k hours :) Drums have been his living and his life for a long time.

But for sure, agree about top players and money beats. Interestingly, they all sound different to each other - different kits, production, touch, rimshot/not, accents, balance of elements etc.

I know you have been peeved at what you see as anti-skill attitudes but there really is no one here who is anti-skill.

Bear in mind that there's a segment on this site who are very much against drummers with ordinary skills and I think that's wrong too if the drummers are involved in making music that gives people joy.

I think there's an impression that there's exclusivity against skills. There is not. Everyone here loves great drummers. However, some of us are not interested in gate keeping to keep the "riff raff" out - just as long as the music's good.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 12-17-2009 at 11:55 PM.
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  #180  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:44 PM
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Well, 10 hours a day played 300 days a year for forty years gets you to 120k hours :)
1. It wouldn't be hundredS of thousands of hours then. and 2. I can't believe anyone can productively _practice_ 10 hours a day. 6-8 maybe. I could believe it if he said he has "played" that much. Which would include playing with bands and teaching and workshops and drum shops, general stick twirling etc. But anyways, I'm not saying Wy hasn't played much. Just nitpicking on numbers and semantics.
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  #181  
Old 12-18-2009, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

Back to the main topic, I think the money beats power lies in it ability to create a hypnotic effect. It's like novacaine, hitting the same spots everytime, and after a while, something happens and you're transported by this relentless pulse.

Another effect I've noticed with simple drumming....before I developed an appreciation for more space, I would listen to a simple drum part and say to myself, "Aw c'mon, you can think of something better than that!" It would inspire me to play along with that song, except doing what I thought would sound better. It never did. That is an after effect of simple playing. The listener thinks they can do that song better, and it inspires.

But after a while, I came to realize that they knew what they were doing in creating that effect. It's hard forsaking all the offbeat ideas you have in favor of simplicity.

The money beat, mindlessly simple, but hypnotic like no other.
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  #182  
Old 12-18-2009, 02:00 AM
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1. It wouldn't be hundredS of thousands of hours then.
LOL you did warn us that you're a perfectionist by nature. Touche!

But, trust me on this, he's very good! I have played functional drums (ie. gigging) for 20 years but compared with Wy I "can't play for crap" :)

Larry yeah, the hypnotic aspect of rhythm is a good point and those simple pulses and claves resonate with people. Some would say it's about heatbeats and the rhythms of life. I wouldn't know, but wouldn't discount it.

The decision as to what to play is an interesting one. Do you hit all of the bass accents? Do you provide a skeleton for the bass to run around in? Do you hit some accents and imply others? Do you play counterpoint? Do you play a one, two, four or eight bar ostinato or play it organic and loose? Do you keep the accents with the bass while following the vocals' or solists' dynamics? Do you leave the bassist "at home" while you go wild with the soloist or do you hold it down with the bassist? We all do these things at times but when and how we choose to do them is intensely individual.

In Bill Bruford's autobiography he recounts the first time he played with Tony Levin. At first Tony was playing very few notes so Bill played more to fill in, thinking that's what was expected. Tony played less again and so Bill played even more. It got to the point where Tony wasn't playing anything. Tony never said a thing but had given Bill the message of how he was going to approach playing. They became good friends and mutual admirers and made a wonderful rhythm section.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 12-18-2009 at 05:17 AM.
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  #183  
Old 12-18-2009, 02:51 AM
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I love it when there is space, but nobody takes it, everybody stays home. That's rare.
Usually, someone feels the need to "fill it up" all the time.
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  #184  
Old 12-18-2009, 04:02 AM
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I love it when there is space, but nobody takes it, everybody stays home. That's rare.
Usually, someone feels the need to "fill it up" all the time.
Guilty as charged - lol
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  #185  
Old 12-18-2009, 05:32 AM
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Back to the main topic, I think the money beats power lies in it ability to create a hypnotic effect. It's like novacaine, hitting the same spots everytime, and after a while, something happens and you're transported by this relentless pulse.
The money beat, mindlessly simple, but hypnotic like no other.
That's a great way of putting it.

Most times the money beat is used in pop tunes where the main focus of the song is the melody and vocal(s).

The drums support the bass, and all the instruments support the vocal line.

In pop music it's a winning combination that generates the big money. (hit records)

Like it or not, it's here to stay.
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  #186  
Old 12-18-2009, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
I don't want to start one more side discussion, but I've been stunned several times in this forum about what drummers get named together right in the same sentence sometimes.
Virgil and Thomas are technically outstanding of course, but while Virgil plays awesome complex stuff (in musical context too), and - for those who know him - did some beautifully tasty stuff on recordings, Thomas basically just plays very fast, plus some overlapping polyrhythmic and polymetric stuff, which many many drummers are able to do also. Finally to put Mike Portnoy there (and for the record, I've been quite a DT fan and I still like and respect Mike's work) is about as ridiculous to me as putting i.e. Buddy Rich and Phil Collins together.
I don't quite get if people sometimes just put some of the names they think of as "technical" together in a rather disparaging way of putting them in a box, or if they know every one of them well enough to compare?
Honest thoughts on that? - And I'm sorry JT1 to take just your example, but it just hit me again, and now I want to know :)!
Yeah i see what you are saying i know there is a huge difference between the 3 and Virgil is my favourite of course! They were just 3 drummers which i believe to be technical. I do agree about Mike he isn't anywhere near the technical level of Lang or Donati but his playing with DT is technical a lot of it made so by their use of odd time signatures just in my opinion of course. Maybe i should have used Mike Mangini instead? =)
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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Yeah i see what you are saying i know there is a huge difference between the 3 and Virgil is my favourite of course! They were just 3 drummers which i believe to be technical. I do agree about Mike he isn't anywhere near the technical level of Lang or Donati but his playing with DT is technical a lot of it made so by their use of odd time signatures just in my opinion of course. Maybe i should have used Mike Mangini instead? =)
If you want to compare some of them, compare Donati with Mangini, both have played with Vai. But why wouldn't we be able to compare even very different drummers? I mean I can even compare a fork to let's say Jojo Mayer. Other one is good for eating solid food and other one is a good drummer. There you go...
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:43 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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Not in the slightest, JT. You and JP have put forth perfectly valid viewpoints. There is a "certain person" who decided he didn't like the thread's premise and decided to kill it. Hey Certain Person - you really got me good with the Carly Simon joke ho ho ho! That had us all fooled.

Can we just talk now as though the Certain Person wasn't and isn't here? Treat it as an annoying mosquito buzz. Ans thanks KIS and especially Larry for sticking up for me. Yesterday was a bad day - lots of inflammation, pain and goo. Woken up much better today, thankfully.

JT, I agree. Some of my fave drummers are beasts too - but when they play the $ beat they play it really well ... which is, after all, what this is all about - not just what you do but how you do it.

I read somewhere Stevie Wonder's drumming in Superstition by itself was uneven and didn't sound very good. But when you put it with the music, it's spot on. That's the subjective side of drumming - being able (and willing!) to combine harmoniously with other sounds around you. Kind of like conversation, really. Some people know how to be harmonious, others have no clue.

Stevie is a great example of a natural, as you say, and I doubt that he spent hours and hours playing rudiments and exercises. Of course that kind of talent is as rare as hen's teeth and everyone else has to sweat buckets to achieve the same thing.

Actually JP, Wy practises absolutely crazy hours and has told me that this has come at the expense of other aspects of his life. He is the kind of player who, if he walked into a music shop and decided to try out a kit, there'd be a crowd gathered around. Plays a damn tight money beat too :)
Thanks Polly, being someone who mentioned feel and technique in the same post i feel partly responsible but hey there's a whole thread on that so no need to drag it into here. I love metal drummers and i think there is nothing better when a money beat is played over an astonishingly heavy riff Fear Factory - Body Hammer the best example or the chorus of Left for Dead by Chimaira another perfect example. Larryace said it best the money beat has a hypnotic effect. What i like about it is when used right it invokes a reaction from the listener and it can be used in different ways. In Rock it makes you wanna dance, in metal it makes you want to bang your head like there is no tomorrow, in Funk it makes you want to move and groove =D! It's amazing how the same beat in a different musical context can create a different reaction.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:51 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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Yeah i see what you are saying i know there is a huge difference between the 3 and Virgil is my favourite of course! They were just 3 drummers which i believe to be technical. I do agree about Mike he isn't anywhere near the technical level of Lang or Donati but his playing with DT is technical a lot of it made so by their use of odd time signatures just in my opinion of course. Maybe i should have used Mike Mangini instead? =)
Fine with me, glad you take it easy :).
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Old 12-18-2009, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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Thanks Polly, being someone who mentioned feel and technique in the same post i feel partly responsible but hey there's a whole thread on that so no need to drag it into here. I love metal drummers and i think there is nothing better when a money beat is played over an astonishingly heavy riff Fear Factory - Body Hammer the best example or the chorus of Left for Dead by Chimaira another perfect example. Larryace said it best the money beat has a hypnotic effect. What i like about it is when used right it invokes a reaction from the listener and it can be used in different ways. In Rock it makes you wanna dance, in metal it makes you want to bang your head like there is no tomorrow, in Funk it makes you want to move and groove =D! It's amazing how the same beat in a different musical context can create a different reaction.
I looked up the Fear Factory song, JP. It scared the bejesus out of me! "Astonishly heavy" is a good description. Add the pounding beat and it really deals you out :). I can go about as far as RATM, which also uses the straight-up grooves really well.

Interesting point about how context changes its effect.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

Haha sorry Polly i should have issued a warning for that song! Yes that is the stuff i love but i have come to enjoy a lot more styles of music lately not just heavy stuff my equally loved style of music is the opposite end of the spectrum completely, give me the most ambient beautiful sounds you can imagine =).

Anyways yes i think the money beat can really add intensity just as much as pounding double bass in the right place. RATM awesome use of simple grooves but as we like Polly, full of nice little twists that make it extra good! 'Wake up' is a great example of Brad's money beat.

Another great point to mention, if the beat is used to open a song, it makes it more powerful definately. Take this for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZe3OUG3IDg Don't worry it's AC/DC but man listen to how fat Phill makes this beat sound when it comes in haha!!!
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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And that is exactly the reason why I didn't back up my original post with specific references to individual posters. In fact, in order to avoid this becoming personal, I have not mentioned the name of a single poster anywhere in this thread.




Come on. There are people posting things like (paraphrasing so I don't call out any one poster) 'I used to be in a band that played in 27/26 time and I used to play chops constantly, but now I just play the money beat.' Or 'I used to listen to really complex music and play it too, but I've seen the error of my ways and I see so much beauty in simple stuff that I don't like complex music anymore.' Then you have a host of other posters who chime in saying 'yeah me too, you're so smart and you add so much to the discussion blah blah blah.' It isn't only in this thread. Check out any of the other threads that have a hint of groove vs. chops or solos or anything. OK. I believe you. And I used to own a Ferrari and I drove on the Le Mans circuit but now I just drive this pinto because I figured out how garish my old habits were. Right. Did I mention that I used to be a trillionare and I got sick of it so I gave all my money away and I live in a studio apartment in Detroit?



What I am seeing on this thread is milder than in a lot of others but this place is rampant with examples of what I've posted above. Like it or not, drummerworld is one of the main voices for drummers and a lot of opinion is formed based on what is read on these forums. I've seen posters literally run off of these boards because they don't tow the party line of 'its all about feel' or 'its all about groove.' These aren't just your random posters either, they are guys with endorsements who write very well and have very well reasoned posts. But because they express a different opinion from a certain group of posters and their lackeys, they get run off. If you don't agree with certain people, it is said that you are disrespectful or that you are 'creating straw men' (one of my favorites) and that you should leave. I haven't singled out specific posters. I am pointing out specific behaviors that I see repeated over and over on here. Those behaviors bother me because they are harmful to drumming and to young drummers reading these forums.



What is the title of this thread? I see Love it or Hate it. That is an either or proposition. My point has been, and always will be, that you play what is appropriate to the music. There are passages in songs that we play live where the money beat is absolutely perfect. Sometimes sparse drumming makes far more of a statement than the most complex thing you can dream up. I have 2 gigs this week and I will use the money beat at both of those gigs, exactly as I described it above. I don't love it or hate it, I use it when it is the best thing for the song and the music. And despite what some may claim, it is not a technically difficult beat to play or master. What is difficult is knowing when it fits better than anything else.



Did I mention that I also had a 16 cylinder Bugatti back in the day but I traded it for a Le Car because the Bugatti was just too obnoxious? Integrity.

Like I've said, I have not called out specific posters, I am calling out a specific behavior.



If you really believe that technical ability is necessary to the craft and that you should play what is appropriate to the music at a given time, then we are in absolute agreement. But what I see all too often on here (not necessarily from you) is exactly what I've said above. Drummers known for their phenomenal technique get bashed as playing without emotion or not having good 'feel'. Mostly this goes unchallenged because if you engage in that discussion, you are more likely to get banned than if you bash Ringo.
Like the opinion or not this is one of the greatest rebuttal posts in the history of this forum. I also know that Average is a tall guy in the world of drumming. His career is a very large and impressive open book. I further know that his calling himself Average / considering his abilities/ is enough humility for me. That includes a so called money beat that I know for a fact he can absolutely play right now this minute, and not in some blurry past life.

Look I'm staying out of the logistics of this thread, because I'm just tired of this argument. But I did want to make this point. It really does seem that so many who have one particular POV on this forum are at most partially unprovable entities as players, and use the security of anonymity to engage in shockingly large contrary opinions. Now that doesn't mean the skills to back up the opinion aren't there. But you just don't know, and I don't think that's helpful, because without the background it just comes off as a sanctimonious potshot. After all, if a well known highly skilled drummer gave me a contrary opinion, I can at least retreat in the knowledge of knowing that the guy walks his walk as well as he talks his talk.

Keep it Simple might very well be a monster, and although I disagree with a lot of his absolutist opinions, I do think he believes what he's selling. This is in stark contrast to many who post on forums with curious personas /now and in the past/ who include from this and similar threads a recently banned PDF troll, a frustrated and cynical part time Atlanta jazz drummer who was banned here once and has now posted for six months under another alias as a jazz hater, any number of guys with names like Heavy Duty Sure as Dirt Deep in the Pocket Guy, a 28 year old who reinvented himself here as a grizzled veteran after being laughed off one forum after a 10 year flirtation, whose heavy playing attributed to him sounds inexplicbly dissimilar to the erratic pop punk on his MySpace, and Polly, who I don't think I'll ever understand, but according to some is more down to earth than I had originally believed. Problem was that her posts irritated so much that she was on my ignore list for months. So I missed all this good side stuff. Sorry Polly.

Problem is I've just never heard most of you guys play. And I've always felt that went along with gigantic dyed in the wool POVs, especially those that preach all consuming absolutist stances and/or are the first to post hyper educational critiques on the My Playing thread. To me its one thing if an out there drummer like Britt or Jazzgreg from the past wants to slam me. I'm totally cool with that. It's just that personally I like a whole lot more debating/not arguing/ with a face and a skill set I can actually see I can actually see with my own eyes and hear with my own ears.

Can others of any skillset have their opinions?

Certainly.

But I think we all know that 90% of the most seriously intense opinions seen here come from behind a big black curtain.
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Old 12-18-2009, 06:01 PM
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My band is a technical metal outfit. We're trying covers for the first time in a decade. I'm finding it impossible to do something with Survivor's EYE OF THE TIGER that sounds any better than what Marc Droubay did.

Impossible.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:20 PM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

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Haha sorry Polly i should have issued a warning for that song! Yes that is the stuff i love but i have come to enjoy a lot more styles of music lately not just heavy stuff my equally loved style of music is the opposite end of the spectrum completely, give me the most ambient beautiful sounds you can imagine =).

Anyways yes i think the money beat can really add intensity just as much as pounding double bass in the right place. RATM awesome use of simple grooves but as we like Polly, full of nice little twists that make it extra good! 'Wake up' is a great example of Brad's money beat.

Another great point to mention, if the beat is used to open a song, it makes it more powerful definately. Take this for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZe3OUG3IDg Don't worry it's AC/DC but man listen to how fat Phill makes this beat sound when it comes in haha!!!
JT, believe it or not I was a Black Sabs fan in the early 70s and had a few of their albums. I think it's just age. The things I found exciting back then now feel like an assault and some music that I found lame I now think is beautiful.

I hadn't heard Wake Up before - epic :) At the start it reminded me of Kashmir. Those guys really know how to go into overdrive. And of course, Phil R is an old money beater from way back.


Matt, Average would have done finely if any of us actually had an anti-skill attitude. I've been mad keen on Bruford since 1974, KIS is a Simon Phillips freak, Wy is a Garabaldi nut. We all love great drummers. Not sure who Larry's faves are but his blues band is excellent.

This thread is about a famous and useful beat and some of its ins and outs. I don't see people going on the many threads about mastering complex drumming ideas with long diatribes chastising everyone for being deluded and crap. Why can't we just have a thread about simple things without it being considered anti chops?

Sure, some of us find musical ostentatiousness tiresome but it doesn't automatically follow that we're anti-skill. The missing ingredient in all these "debates" is nuance. I get sick of being slammed for enjoying uncool music. If I was young, fair enough, that's the game. But I paid those dues almost 40 years ago!

Um BTW you were also on my ignore list. Sorry too.
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:56 AM
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I don't see people going on the many threads about mastering complex drumming ideas with long diatribes chastising everyone for being deluded and crap. .

This cannot be a serious post


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I get sick of being slammed for enjoying uncool music. If I was young, fair enough, that's the game. But I paid those dues almost 40 years ago!
Huh?

Well I tried and with it being the holidays I'm just not interested in taking this any further. Merry Christmas Polly.
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Old 12-19-2009, 10:48 AM
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This cannot be a serious post
Gosh, I must have missed all those people going on technique threads and telling people that they're crap.

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Huh?

Well I tried and with it being the holidays I'm just not interested in taking this any further. Merry Christmas Polly.
You have a good one too Matt

Last edited by Pollyanna; 12-19-2009 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 12-19-2009, 11:45 AM
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Default Re: THE BIG "MONEY BEAT" DEBATE! Love it or hate it?

Matt you have a point I think. And a similar name to mine :D.
I've no problem showing were I'm more or less at. I only got a myspace page though.
www.myspace.com/matthiasspitz

I'm currently playing in a trip hop band, and a jazz quintett, and some other project stuff.
I've been working on groove, tightness, bop drumming, latin drumming, fusion drumming in the past few weeks or months. I also work myself through books like Gavin Harrison's second one (Rhythmic Perspectives? the blue one...), Zoros R&B Commandments, John Riley's Beyond Bop Drumming, and sometimes some UnReel Drum Book (Vinnie) stuff. Yeah that must be about it.

Edit: Feedback for my music tracks appreciated of course.
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:12 PM
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Keep it Simple might very well be a monster, and although I disagree with a lot of his absolutist opinions, I do think he believes what he's selling.
Hi Matt, I have no issue with you or any player on this forum regarding stance and counter opinion. That's the very stuff of interesting discussion. I did have an issue with average regarding a statement in his earlier post that, in my opinion, went beyond what was necessary to get his point across. I've presented my feelings on this and that's the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned.

It's good to hear that Average is a player of ability. I never doubted or questioned that. Anyone who choses a user name of that ilk must have a degree of grounding.

As for my place in the big scheme of things, to confirm, I'm no chops monster or anything approaching that. A relevant extract from my earlier post:

"I'm very honest about my abilities (or lack of), my history and transparent in my appraisal of myself. I'm certainly a one trick pony in genre terms, but I can turn in a performance that stands up & open the box of tricks if I'm in the mood. I don't have a wealth of chops, but what I do have, I execute well in the opinion of others who know what they're talking about. I have played some fairly complexed stuff in the past, and to a standard that fans of such material found attractive. I'm not a great player, but I am good at what I do and have more band & paid session offers than I could ever accept. I can only conclude that I must be doing something right".

After a 20 year layoff and only 3 years back into playing, I'd say I'm a rusty rock player of limited repetoire but able to offer a worthwhile performance within my comfort zone. I get the basics of my craft right & both musicians & punters alike seem to enjoy my performances.

Much to my dismay (& certainly not for the convenience of this thread, please check earlier posts on this) our house was ravaged by thieves 15 years ago. All my sound gear, recordings, all family stuff was stolen. My wife was also injured by these bas%$%^$ards. Anyhow, as soon as I've got some playing to post, I will. I've already posted a lame recording of a vocalist audition with me jamming a track I didn't know out of sheer guilt as I have nothing recorded to offer. I have no shame.

And yes, I'm usually one of the first to post in the my playing section. I take a great interest in other player's stuff but I think you'll find my posts are always encouraging, constructive, and I think, balanced. When I do sight a negative, it's always with the caveat "IMO", presented respectfully and offering a positive alternative proposal. I'm never high handed or remotely pretending to be an "expert". If you can find any post that doesn't fit into that description, please let me know. I'm often the only member to respond to a post in the my playing section. I view it as a positive thing to respond when another member has taken the time & trouble to post their stuff. Please don't take that as a pathetic attempt on my part to present myself as some form of pseudo mentor to massage my own ego. I'm way too old, weathered and under qualified to be bothered with that.

I'm jumping in and out of the forum at present as I'm running round looking after my parents who have both suffered serious strokes. Have a restful season Matt & good luck with your European venture.

Last edited by keep it simple; 12-19-2009 at 04:11 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 12-19-2009, 12:50 PM
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Matt you have a point I think. And a similar name to mine :D.
I've no problem showing were I'm more or less at. I only got a myspace page though.
www.myspace.com/matthiasspitz

I'm currently playing in a trip hop band, and a jazz quintett, and some other project stuff.
I've been working on groove, tightness, bop drumming, latin drumming, fusion drumming in the past few weeks or months. I also work myself through books like Gavin Harrison's second one (Rhythmic Perspectives? the blue one...), Zoros R&B Commandments, John Riley's Beyond Bop Drumming, and sometimes some UnReel Drum Book (Vinnie) stuff. Yeah that must be about it.

Edit: Feedback for my music tracks appreciated of course.
Enjoyed your stuff very much SM. Some lovely fills in "Storm Washes" & I like everything about "Lose You", great timing. Yup, you know what you're talking about. My kinda playing.
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Old 12-19-2009, 07:10 PM
JPW JPW is offline
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Actually JP, Wy practises absolutely crazy hours and has told me that this has come at the expense of other aspects of his life. He is the kind of player who, if he walked into a music shop and decided to try out a kit, there'd be a crowd gathered around. Plays a damn tight money beat too :)
Actually Polly, you prove more points with that than I could have ever done by myself. =P Firstly, try to play a money beat for 30 mins in a music shop and try to get crowd to gather. I'm quite sure not even your heroes could do it. Secondly, the fact that people DO gather around single drummers soloing in a music stores proves the point that people do understand drumming beoynd simple drumming and are fascinated by it. And THIRDLY it proves that many people also enjoy watching solo drumming even if they aren't drummers themselves (this was for the drum solo thread). So again I fail to see the glory and greatness in the money beat. =P
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