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  #81  
Old 04-16-2019, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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AH: Which drum seat did you have at first and which one did you upgrade to that's improved your sitting time?
I’ve been on a Roc n Soc saddle for better part of 25 years. Comfy, but feeling a bit restrictive lately. Had a PDP 800 series on the practice pad set. It was more of a mid evil torture device. Tried a couple of different ones from Tama, Pork Pie, but ended up with a Roc n Soc round for the drums, then moved the saddle to the practice pad set, where the restrictiveness is irrelevant.

Now, I don’t even think about what I’m sitting on anymore. They both have worked out great.

Last edited by AzHeat; 04-16-2019 at 07:06 PM.
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  #82  
Old 04-16-2019, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Rebound/bounce-based techniques are vastly overrated.
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  #83  
Old 04-16-2019, 11:51 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

My unpopular opinion is that I gave up caring about most peoples' opinions a long time ago. The list of people whose opinion I value is short.
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  #84  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:15 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Keith Moon is over rated.
You don't need a fancy drum seat


Made me laugh - as edited, I wasn't aware there was a Moon seat option ;)

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
My unpopular opinion is that I gave up caring about most peoples' opinions a long time ago. The list of people whose opinion I value is short.
With your level of scrutiny, I sometimes wonder if you even value your own opinion ;)
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  #85  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

After a recent youtube rabbit hole into the world of live Jethro Tull in the mid 70's, a band I tragically missed out on back in the day, how, why, maybe i needed a little deeper musical palette and understanding than I had, I digress:

Lil tongue in cheek but enjoy:

Clive Bunker is the best early metal style drummer to come out of England.

Barriemore Barlow is the best rock /progressive rock drummer to come out of England.

If they both did in fact come from England, an obvious play off of Bonhams comment, but good god I have been loving me some Jethro Tull recently and Clive and especially Barrie are f'n incredible.
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  #86  
Old 04-17-2019, 12:53 AM
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With your level of scrutiny, I sometimes wonder if you even value your own opinion ;)
Of course I bloody don't!
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  #87  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:11 AM
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After a recent youtube rabbit hole into the world of live Jethro Tull in the mid 70's, a band I tragically missed out on back in the day
Jethro Tull was one of my earliest concerts. Two shows, 4 Bucks each, at a community college gymnasium. I was 16 or 17. I was a fledgling drummer at the time. I didn't know why Clive was so good, I just knew I was in awe. I couldn't understand how he was playing all that "stuff".

It really wasn't until decades later when I revisited some old favorites that I could comprehend and appreciate what he was doing.

Great band, great drummer, great time to be a kid!!!
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  #88  
Old 04-17-2019, 02:57 AM
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Stylistically- I like Palmer better than Blaine.
I'll take that a step further Earl Palmer may be one of the greatest, as in most influential, drummers of all time and it is a crime how overlooked he is.

Boutique drums are vanity toys for collectors with too much money

There is no shortcut for playing softer, it takes work and proper technique, rods or brushes are not going do it.
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  #89  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BenOBrienSmith View Post
2. Investing in quality room acoustic treatment (not just cheap foam) can have a far greater effect on the quality of sound than investing in drums above a certain level.
.
Please do an episode on that!

My unpopular opinions:
1. Guitarists seem uniquely incapable of noticing when they sound bad.
2. If you break heads and cymbals, you are doing something wrong.
3. Cover bands sound better if they play songs too slowly rather than too fast.
4. You only need one good snare drum.
5. TuneBots are better than tuning by ear, even if you have a pretty good ear, and especially if you don't.
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  #90  
Old 04-18-2019, 10:40 AM
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Please do an episode on that!

My unpopular opinions:
1. Guitarists seem uniquely incapable of noticing when they sound bad.
2. If you break heads and cymbals, you are doing something wrong.
3. Cover bands sound better if they play songs too slowly rather than too fast.
4. You only need one good snare drum.
5. TuneBots are better than tuning by ear, even if you have a pretty good ear, and especially if you don't.
I whole heartedly agree with all of these.....does that mean they're not unpopular after all?? :)
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  #91  
Old 04-18-2019, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

I have a couple.

1) Playing with an auditable click-track makes you a better drummer.

2) All serious drummers strive to play in perfect time.

I've had one or more recording engineers superimpose a click track over my drum track using their DAW software. They would say it was bad for my timing to move around a bit. I play like that intentionally but I couldn't convince them.
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  #92  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Ooh I just realized I have one.

If you’re regularly breaking sticks you’re hitting way too hard.
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  #93  
Old 04-20-2019, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

The neighbors love my drums!
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  #94  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by New Tricks View Post
Jethro Tull was one of my earliest concerts. Two shows, 4 Bucks each, at a community college gymnasium. I was 16 or 17. I was a fledgling drummer at the time. I didn't know why Clive was so good, I just knew I was in awe. I couldn't understand how he was playing all that "stuff".

It really wasn't until decades later when I revisited some old favorites that I could comprehend and appreciate what he was doing.

Great band, great drummer, great time to be a kid!!!
Thats excellent, what great experiences to have under your belt...I would've loved it!! Thanks for sharing that
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  #95  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:06 PM
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I'll take that a step further Earl Palmer may be one of the greatest, as in most influential, drummers of all time and it is a crime how overlooked he is.

Boutique drums are vanity toys for collectors with too much money

There is no shortcut for playing softer, it takes work and proper technique, rods or brushes are not going do it.
Funny, I was just messing around with a variation on the "Im Walking" intro bass drum/hi hat interplay. Was fun and good for me feets.
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  #96  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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My unpopular opinion is related to drum shell materials

Many perplex over drum shell materials as though there is some vast difference, when in engineering understanding the difference is nil related to wood.

This is a marketing induced problem which most drummers fail to understand. Wood drum shells have very little to do with drum sound. Drum shells are structural in nature, providing an air chamber, tensioning structure and edge for the drum heads. Its the vibration of the drum heads which provide sound. Don't believe that? Try beating on your drum shells without any heads attached and see what type of drum sound is produced....

Drum shell hype makes for good marketing but thats about where the story ends. A good drum shell (no mater the material) will provide an acceptable drum sound. This has been proven time and again by many people.

I would state as an engineer that wood is probably the least desirable material from which drums should be made, simply because wood reacts to both temperature and moisture, causing the wood to expand and contract accordingly. Metal is far less affected by temperature and almost never affected by moisture in relation to changing material size. Plastics will move based upon temperature (like wood) but are unaffected by moisture. The problem with plastics is they need be fairly thick in order to be structural, unless they are infused with fiber.

Therefore all this talk about the types of wood used in drum manufacturing is simply hype. Any wood which provides solid structure is capable of being drum wood. The air pressure within that drum will never ... penetrate the drum shell lamination, glue and finish... ever

The important issues related to wooden drum shells are the processes with which the drum shells are constructed. The tooling and equipment used to laminate the shells together. the finished roundness of the drum shell (concentricity), the process of making sure the shell ends are square with the shell, the process of cutting the bearing edges and keeping their flatness consistent, the process for finishing the bearing edges and the interior and interior of the drum shell to avoid the effects of moisture. These are all things which affect the sound of wooden drum shells, regardless of the material used.

Think about it, when was the last time someone stated during a concert ... those are great sounding maple drums or basswood drums or metal drums? Never....that is when. Because generally an audience will never know the material a drum is constructed of. They will only hear the sound the drum produces. Its all about the shell manufacturing process and how that shell construction provides a structure for the drums heads to react to with the atmosphere, which is how drum sound is produced.

For these reasons, its very important when changing drum heads not to treat your drum shells with disregard. Take care not to damage the bearing edges when changing heads, and always clean the tensioning components before reassembly, no matter if your drum shells are made of basswood (Luan), poplar, birch, rock maple or some mixture thereof.

Believing their is variation in wooden drum sound because of the wood used is simply hype. Any variation one might hear between wooden drums is the attention paid during drum shell manufacturing process, not the shell material itself. Engineering wise, the material (as long as its structurally sound) will make no difference in the final sound of a drum given that identical manufacturing processes are employed, and identical heads are used. Yes there will be variation in drum sound based upon drum lengths or thickness but that is true no mater the material used. Drum sound is the direct relationship of drum head vibration reacting to the atmosphere within and external to the drum. That is the basic engineering of drums.
Sounds good in theory... but I hate the sound of rosewood toms, and love the sound of walnut. Your ear gets more and more attuned to differences over time, with experience. All of my gigs are low-volume unmiked, and I assure you that a pro ear can hear the difference between woods, all other things being equal, especially on a segmented, stave, or hollow log kit.

Having said that, the average non-musician has no such ability to discern, and heads and shell thickness and bearing edges and tuning and hardware all make big differences as well. And of course, you can make cardboard shelled drums with beat-up heads sound like heaven if they’re miked and gated and processed well.
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  #97  
Old 04-21-2019, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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Another unpopular drumming opinion.

Many think that drummers of the early 1960s and 70s were great. They listen to the albums understanding not that most of the drum sounds they hear are from the "Wrecking Crew" session musicians. Hal Blaine being the most influential percussionist of the wrecking crew. Most of the popular music recorded during the 1960s and 70s was Hal Blaine work...

The Motown sound was probably where the most variation exists between drum tracks. As those were recordings did not use session musicians in all cases.
Maybe the west coast stuff. All the british bands used their own drummers for the most part.
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  #98  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by TJH View Post
Another unpopular drumming opinion.

Many think that drummers of the early 1960s and 70s were great. They listen to the albums understanding not that most of the drum sounds they hear are from the "Wrecking Crew" session musicians. Hal Blaine being the most influential percussionist of the wrecking crew. Most of the popular music recorded during the 1960s and 70s was Hal Blaine work...

The Motown sound was probably where the most variation exists between drum tracks. As those were recordings did not use session musicians in all cases.
Yes, your example fits only pop music in the USA. Even in USA pop music there were other great drummers - Sandy Nelson, Dino Danelli, to name a few. Are you saying many other genres in the 60's 70's were not played by a long list of great drummers?

The Motown guys WERE all session musicians. They were on a constant session, Mon - Fri, for everything and everybody Barry Gordy hired. They all played live music on the side.
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  #99  
Old 04-21-2019, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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Originally Posted by TJH View Post
My unpopular opinion is related to drum shell materials

Many perplex over drum shell materials as though there is some vast difference, when in engineering understanding the difference is nil related to wood.

This is a marketing induced problem which most drummers fail to understand. Wood drum shells have very little to do with drum sound. Drum shells are structural in nature, providing an air chamber, tensioning structure and edge for the drum heads. Its the vibration of the drum heads which provide sound. Don't believe that? Try beating on your drum shells without any heads attached and see what type of drum sound is produced....

Drum shell hype makes for good marketing but thats about where the story ends. A good drum shell (no mater the material) will provide an acceptable drum sound. This has been proven time and again by many people.

I would state as an engineer that wood is probably the least desirable material from which drums should be made, simply because wood reacts to both temperature and moisture, causing the wood to expand and contract accordingly. Metal is far less affected by temperature and almost never affected by moisture in relation to changing material size. Plastics will move based upon temperature (like wood) but are unaffected by moisture. The problem with plastics is they need be fairly thick in order to be structural, unless they are infused with fiber.

Therefore all this talk about the types of wood used in drum manufacturing is simply hype. Any wood which provides solid structure is capable of being drum wood. The air pressure within that drum will never ... penetrate the drum shell lamination, glue and finish... ever

The important issues related to wooden drum shells are the processes with which the drum shells are constructed. The tooling and equipment used to laminate the shells together. the finished roundness of the drum shell (concentricity), the process of making sure the shell ends are square with the shell, the process of cutting the bearing edges and keeping their flatness consistent, the process for finishing the bearing edges and the interior and interior of the drum shell to avoid the effects of moisture. These are all things which affect the sound of wooden drum shells, regardless of the material used.

Think about it, when was the last time someone stated during a concert ... those are great sounding maple drums or basswood drums or metal drums? Never....that is when. Because generally an audience will never know the material a drum is constructed of. They will only hear the sound the drum produces. Its all about the shell manufacturing process and how that shell construction provides a structure for the drums heads to react to with the atmosphere, which is how drum sound is produced.

For these reasons, its very important when changing drum heads not to treat your drum shells with disregard. Take care not to damage the bearing edges when changing heads, and always clean the tensioning components before reassembly, no matter if your drum shells are made of basswood (Luan), poplar, birch, rock maple or some mixture thereof.

Believing their is variation in wooden drum sound because of the wood used is simply hype. Any variation one might hear between wooden drums is the attention paid during drum shell manufacturing process, not the shell material itself. Engineering wise, the material (as long as its structurally sound) will make no difference in the final sound of a drum given that identical manufacturing processes are employed, and identical heads are used. Yes there will be variation in drum sound based upon drum lengths or thickness but that is true no mater the material used. Drum sound is the direct relationship of drum head vibration reacting to the atmosphere within and external to the drum. That is the basic engineering of drums.
Since this is an opinion thread, I decided I wouldn't debate anything. But if I was going to debate, it would be on this post. Not that I don't agree with it, I do. I just think it's missing a certain spiritual non logical element from the equation, because I can absolutely hear and point out the difference between a handful of certain species, not all, of wood.

Still, this is a really intelligent post that I have a lot of respect for. Thanks for taking the time to write that all out.
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  #100  
Old 04-22-2019, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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Originally Posted by TJH View Post
My unpopular opinion is related to drum shell materials

Many perplex over drum shell materials as though there is some vast difference, when in engineering understanding the difference is nil related to wood.

This is a marketing induced problem which most drummers fail to understand. Wood drum shells have very little to do with drum sound. Drum shells are structural in nature, providing an air chamber, tensioning structure and edge for the drum heads. Its the vibration of the drum heads which provide sound. Don't believe that? Try beating on your drum shells without any heads attached and see what type of drum sound is produced....
I realise that this thread is about unpopular drumming opinions, but I can't let this one go.

Of course the drum vibrates and contributes to the tone. I'll grant you that wood species is only one element involved, and is not the be all and end all. Bearing edges (which would be irrelevant if it's only the heads making tone), hardware mass, head choice, room sound, tuning and if the drums are mic'd then mic choice, amplifier tone, EQ settings and speaker choice also make a huge difference.

If wood species make no difference, then material choice would make no difference, and that is simply not the case. Aluminium snares don't send the same as wood snares, although both are cylinders that support the heads.

On the other hand, kudos to you for making me do something that I have found amusing in this thread:

Drummer A: This is my unpopular opinion.
Drummer B: What? I do not agree with your unpopular opinion!
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  #101  
Old 04-22-2019, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

I must agree with JustJames below.

It should be obvious that the shell contributes to the sound and tone, and any proper suspension mounts proves that.
The fact that there is a difference in sound and sustain when the shell is restricted shows it plays a role in the sound.

The first time I figured this out for myself was when I lifted my floor Tom by its rim and struck it. The shell was visibly oscillating with an amplitude of at least a good 3 millimeters. There was a tremendous amount of low frequencies that are just not present in the head/head/air-column system.

Yes the shell contributes to sound, and different shell properties (stiffness, mass) will alter the way the shell can vibrate, and emit sound waves.

Hence floor Tom suspension feet and rims style mounts?
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  #102  
Old 04-22-2019, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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Believing their is variation in wooden drum sound because of the wood used is simply hype.
In very many examples, yes, but not in all examples. It depends on the context of the overall design. Yes, the heads produce the sound, but that sound is influenced by all the materials of instrument construction. An easy analogy is speaker cabinets. The speaker cone (the drum head) produces the sound, but that sound is influenced not only by the form of the speaker cabinet (the drum shell), but also it's material of construction.

You are correct in the bulk of your post though, & even in the most revealing construction context where the design allows the wood species characteristics to feature, in such drums, wood species is still a minor contributing element.
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  #103  
Old 04-22-2019, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

I was talking to a couple today who are contemplating a $25,000 cello for their son.

So my unpopular opinion is that professional drumsets are one of the cheapest instruments around.
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  #104  
Old 04-22-2019, 04:38 PM
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Believing their is variation in wooden drum sound because of the wood used is simply hype.
I was going to put up this video as a good example of direct comparison of wood types. I can hear the differences, and to me they are not so subtle. BUT, you've got me thinking about this, because what they don't mention in the video is that the shell construction is not exactly the same between these different drums. The maple has reinforcement hoops, the birch does not, the cherry is 8 plies instead of 6, the oak has a different ply thickness than the others. So to make a true direct comparison, we'd need to have drums with identical shell construction, with only the wood type varying. I'm not aware of any videos that show that, or indeed of any drum companies that make identical drums with ONLY the material being different.
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  #105  
Old 04-22-2019, 04:54 PM
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I'm not aware of any drum companies that make identical drums with ONLY the material being different.
I do :)
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  #106  
Old 04-22-2019, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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I was talking to a couple today who are contemplating a $25,000 cello for their son.

So my unpopular opinion is that professional drumsets are one of the cheapest instruments around.
Define "professional" for me but I think it means something that can be used to persue a profession aka job. Technically you can use a 1000 dollar cello professionally as you can use a 10000 dollar one. So this doesn't really make sense. Also since DW makes some crazy expensive kits that go above 15000 dollars.
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  #107  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:00 PM
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Have you ever played a $1,000 'Cello? Mass-produced 'Cellos are fine but good ones are handmade and take considerable time to make. There's no factory churning out professional 'Cellos.

You need to spend considerably more than that.

A student bassoon is another example. One that is a decent start (but no more) costs upwards of £1,500 minimum.

Drums are one of the cheapest instruments going. Along with electric guitars.
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  #108  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:07 PM
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Have you ever played a $1,000 'Cello? Mass-produced 'Cellos are fine but good ones are handmade and take considerable time to make. There's no factory churning out professional 'Cellos.

You need to spend considerably more than that.

A student bassoon is another example. One that is a decent start (but no more) costs upwards of £1,500 minimum.

Drums are one of the cheapest instruments going. Along with electric guitars.
Well you can’t really call a Squier or Epiphone a “good” guitar, the real good ones are Fender and Gibson. Same with drums, PDP isn’t really “good”, the good one is DW. You can’t really measure how good an instrument is for a beginner or pro. You can be a professional with a 1000 dollar cello just like there are pros using Pearl Exports.
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  #109  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:54 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

And how many professional Cellists do you know? I work with one. And I work with two professional violinists, too. That's aside from the several professional Clarinetists I know, the Euphonium player, the Flautist... need I go on?

Sorry mate. You're talking out of your arse.
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  #110  
Old 04-22-2019, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

The short answer on drum construction is—listen to Andy. He’s literally the only person here who has actually built wooden drum sets as an actual business. And he designed and built the shells, plus designing really groundbreaking lugs. He knows more than all of us put together about how drum construction and material affects sound.
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  #111  
Old 04-22-2019, 11:49 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Based on another thread, my very unpopular opinion is

Teaching music is not the same career as playing drums.

But that's just me.
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  #112  
Old 04-23-2019, 12:13 AM
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Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is online now
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Pretty much everything I think about teaching is wildly unpopular.

Here's the kicker; though:

I actually get results.
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So, kick drum...or...bass drum? I'll tell you what. If it's 18" or less, it's a FOOT TOM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:54 AM
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paradiddle pete paradiddle pete is offline
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Drummers are more intelligent than other people! Drums are Instruments. Hmmm! 1959 Les Paul considered the Holy Grail of Electric Guitars would today fetch Megabucks while a 1959 Ludwig COB snare drum lucky to fetch maybe $1500 . figure that out.. by the way as far as i understand it the Les Paul sold badly because the Stratocaster was kicking it's ass and so the introduction of the SG. double cut away.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
The short answer on drum construction is—listen to Andy. He’s literally the only person here who has actually built wooden drum sets as an actual business. And he designed and built the shells, plus designing really groundbreaking lugs. He knows more than all of us put together about how drum construction and material affects sound.
Thank you for your kind words, but there's actually a lot of drum construction knowledge on here, just not necessarily posting regularly.

What I have discovered over the years, is that people (quite rightly) form opinions based on their own experience points of reference. In the case of drum construction types, those points of reference can be quite narrow, & formulation of opinion naturally focussed accordingly.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:24 PM
Florida Drum Dude Florida Drum Dude is offline
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Ringo is a musical, tasteful drummer with a great sense of time and meter.
14 x 24 is the perfect size for a kick drum.
Ludwig is the sound of rock and roll.
dw turret lugs are cool.
A black magic sounds just like a black beauty for hundreds less.
9 x 13 is the best sounding rack tom size.
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Old 04-24-2019, 06:37 PM
mesazoo mesazoo is offline
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

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Originally Posted by Red Menace View Post
I'll take that a step further Earl Palmer may be one of the greatest, as in most influential, drummers of all time and it is a crime how overlooked he is.

Boutique drums are vanity toys for collectors with too much money

There is no shortcut for playing softer, it takes work and proper technique, rods or brushes are not going do it.
Word is Earl was used to replace Purdies drum parts on the Beatles albums.
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Old 04-25-2019, 03:00 AM
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  #117  
Old 04-25-2019, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

* Many drummers have insufficient knowledge of what contributes to their instrument sound, or how to tune / prepare them appropriately for the playing situation.

* Compared to most instruments, drums represent excellent value for money.

* E kits are useful for practice where noise is a consideration, but not much else.

* Only the really gullible would consider applying plastic "ports" to tom heads.

* Die cast hoops are usually not very rigid.

* Deeper drums does not automatically = more low end.

* Just because it's patented, doesn't mean it's good, or even new.

* The most expensive component on your drums is usually the badge.

* Just because the wood species is "exotic", doesn't make it a good tone wood.

* Orchestral chimes are cool.

* You've started playing a few nice gigs, does not = entitled to free drums.

* If the (experienced) sound engineer thinks your drum sound sucks, it probably does.

* Excluding uber level acts, most "successful" bands, sadly, are effectively Tshirt marketing companies that happen to make music.

* Recording studios will rarely fix your playing weaknesses, they'll expose them.
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Old 04-25-2019, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy View Post

* Orchestral chimes are cool.
This is the thread for unpopular opinions

True facts have no place here.
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  #119  
Old 04-25-2019, 02:39 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

Not sure I read every post so maybe someone mentioned this....

There are NO absolutes in music-especially in size type or cost of gear.

Seems many nowadays *insist* THIS is the best or the "right" or worse, "THE ONLY" way to do it.

If we were honest we would have to admit that there is a time and a place where such and such worked (orchestral chimes for instance lol), not only worked, but worked fantastically.

Small toms, big toms, small cymbals, big cymbals, small bass drums, even drums with chicken pox...

Try and say that in *some* places and you will get hammered for how *wrong* you are...lol.
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Old 04-25-2019, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: State your unpopular drumming opinions

In my opinion Carl Palmer was a great drummer!
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