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  #1  
Old 03-22-2016, 04:49 AM
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Default Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Basically, I have been playing 8's (1&2&3&4&) on the hi hat and ride and doing basic fills for a long time.

And my goal is to become sufficient enough to be able to reply to future ads (on craigslist or whatnot) for a drummer, that can play, alternative rock, indie rock or pop punk music.

So, my question is, what other groove should I try and become proficient at?

I ask because, my drum instructor thinks it's necessary (for me) to learn a rock shuffle beat, like the one on ZZ Tops "La Grange". Which, isn't coming to easy to me. And, I'm thinking, isn't there some other groove to focus on?

By the way, I'm also doing daily hand exercises on the practice pad, which includes: single strokes, double strokes, paradiddles and triplets, as well as playing along to recorded music, with a click.
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Old 03-22-2016, 04:57 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

There's a ton of things you could work on. But shuffles are as good a place to start as any. At this stage in your development, why ignore the instruction of the guy you're paying good money to to teach you in the first place?

Shuffles are so common in rock music that you'd be crazy not to try and develop them. Of course they're tough at the moment. They're new and unfamiliar to you. But I don't see that as a reason to by-pass them in favour of something else. Shuffles are a staple. Listen to the guy you're trusting to take your cash off you. I'm sure he has a methodical plan for your continued development. Follow his advice and he'll have you coming along in leaps and bounds.
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Old 03-22-2016, 06:20 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Learning to shuffle, and more specifically how to swing notes, is an incredibly important part of music in a general sense and pretty critical to developing drummers. Even rudiments can/should occasionally be practiced swung.

The shuffle on La Grange is a pretty straight 4-on-the-floor with swung 16'ths in unison on the arms, and is probably the go-to introductory shuffle that teachers show their students.

Just wait till you get to introductory latino rhythms!

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Old 03-22-2016, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Start with Chapter 3.

http://colindrums.weebly.com/drum-guide.html
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:09 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Old 03-23-2016, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

If you can't shuffle that's probably what you should do.

Progession in the book I use is something like:

All quarter notes.
Same beats with 8th note hihat
8th note bass drum with 8th note hats
8th note bass with quarter note hats
All previous with steady 16th note hats
Simple 16th note bass drum with 16th note hats
Same 16th note bass drum with 8th note hats
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Shuffles are indeed awesome, but there's a step left out between 8ths and shuffles, and that's triplets.

Triplets are very swingy, playing three notes per quarter.

I find the easiest way to count them is 1-and-a, 2-and-a, 3-and-a, 4-and-a.

Once your triplets are groovy, turn them into a basic shuffle by leaving out the 'and's and play 1..a-2...a-3...a-4...a-1 etc.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:46 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

I have a headache reading all this.

Pop, Punk. Alternative & Indie music is best played by ear. If you can't do that to a certain extent then you are going wrong somewhere.
Listen to the genre's & play along to the songs. These should be easy to pick up very quickly
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:01 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

I just wanted to chime in and thank everyone for their replies.

Oh, and I will keep trying to swing it, with shuffles and triplets. Even though, it's difficult, after trying to keep everything steady, with 1&2&3&4&.

Nonetheless, I'm sure the beat will, start to groove (I mean swing) soon. :)

I also think, learning 16th notes on the hats is a good idea too. Heck, I guess, I can try and learn and become confident at both.
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

I have been playing in original alt rock bands most of my adult life and I will tell you one thing, its all about time. Nobody cares if your fills aren't great (trust me, mine aren't), nobody cares if you can play complex right foot patterns, nobody even cares how fast your hands are. What they care about is if you can play in time. Can you hold a steady beat through a song, can you come out of a fill back on the 1, can you keep a steady tempo on the hi-hats. That is what other musicians are looking for. And to be perfectly honest, if your a nice guy, some of that stuff wont even matter. I have managed to play in bands my whole life, despite my mediocrity, because I can keep a tempo and I'm not a jerk. If you can do those two things, go find a band, the rest will take care of itself.
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Old 03-23-2016, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Originally Posted by eclipseownzu View Post
I have been playing in original alt rock bands most of my adult life and I will tell you one thing, its all about time. Nobody cares if your fills aren't great (trust me, mine aren't), nobody cares if you can play complex right foot patterns, nobody even cares how fast your hands are. What they care about is if you can play in time. Can you hold a steady beat through a song, can you come out of a fill back on the 1, can you keep a steady tempo on the hi-hats. That is what other musicians are looking for. And to be perfectly honest, if your a nice guy, some of that stuff wont even matter. I have managed to play in bands my whole life, despite my mediocrity, because I can keep a tempo and I'm not a jerk. If you can do those two things, go find a band, the rest will take care of itself.
This is truer than I'd like to admit. But I have to concur, the time is more important than everything else rolled together. I am still learning this lesson myself and am nowhere near done learning this lesson. Time is the single most important thing a drummer needs to get right. By a gigantic margin. That's just the way it is. Good time with minimal fills trumps bad time with cool fills everyday of the week in my world.

If the time doesn't feel right, great fills won't make up for that particular shortcoming.
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2016, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

yup - "It's about the economy, stupid!" ... or in this case ... "It's about how your drumming makes the audience feel"
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Old 03-23-2016, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Originally Posted by eclipseownzu View Post
I have been playing in original alt rock bands most of my adult life and I will tell you one thing, its all about time...
This is very true.

I'm in two bands, both of which have the same lead guitarist. In my "main" band, I'm the drummer. In the second, I'm rhythm guitarist.

The second band has a very good drummer. Intricate but tasty stuff. For an upcoming gig, he's not available, so we've been rehearsing with a stand-in. The stand-in is nowhere near as good as the regular drummer, but lead guitar dude has quietly mentioned to me that he prefers playing with the stand in because the stand in makes it easier to follow what's going on.
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Old 03-24-2016, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Originally Posted by Frosticles View Post
I have a headache reading all this.

Pop, Punk. Alternative & Indie music is best played by ear. If you can't do that to a certain extent then you are going wrong somewhere.
Listen to the genre's & play along to the songs. These should be easy to pick up very quickly
I think you're half right. Yeah, there's a place for picking things up by ear. But, if only I had a pound for every student I've had who's tried to "play by ear" and can't come close to playing what's actually on the records they've been imitating because they A) don't really understand what they're hearing and B) don't have the technical proficiency to play it even when they do. (Oh wait, I sort of do have a pound...) Usually they come up with some facsimile of the part that follows the path of least technical resistance and reflects an incomplete knowledge of how common grooves are constructed. Sometimes what they come up with is really cool and even innovative. But it's not the part, and it's not the sort of thing they'll be expected to be able to do as they move along in their careers. Other times, they just fudge their way through and the result is a sloppy, imprecise and generally lacking groove that's no good to anyone.

This problem is only made worse by the fact that modern records have all kinds of effects and compression on the drums/cymbals so actually deciphering what was played can be a real chore for an inexperienced ear.

Why not attack the problem from both angles? Belts and braces, so to speak. A little help goes a long way. I spend lots of time with my students just listening to things and helping them learn how to hear.

Last edited by Boomka; 03-24-2016 at 12:53 AM.
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  #15  
Old 03-24-2016, 04:11 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

If you like learning about the history of popular music, and drums, check out this book by Zoro and Daniel Glass. This book covers all sorts of shuffle topics and gives examples as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Commandments-E...3ADaniel+Glass
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  #16  
Old 03-24-2016, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Shuffles are important if you're playing lots of Southern rock (tho I love them-can't find much use for them in my bands). I don't know the term but Petty songs incorporate a lot of 2/4? and always up-tempo I think, which is different from standard rock-"Runnin' Down a Dream" vs Aerosmith "Sweet Emotion." Maybe work on that-more on the punk/polka side of beats.
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  #17  
Old 03-24-2016, 05:57 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Originally Posted by mrfingers View Post
Shuffles are important if you're playing lots of Southern rock (tho I love them-can't find much use for them in my bands). I don't know the term but Petty songs incorporate a lot of 2/4? and always up-tempo I think, which is different from standard rock-"Runnin' Down a Dream" vs Aerosmith "Sweet Emotion." Maybe work on that-more on the punk/polka side of beats.
I may be misunderstanding you, but I play Runnin' Down A Dream as 4/4, with quarters on the hats for verses, and eigths for the chorus.
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Old 03-24-2016, 10:03 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

JustJ,
musical notation's not my strong point, so I bow to anyone that knows it. I happen to count that groove as 1-2-1-2...
I meant that the feel for that groove is just so much more different than the typical rock groove.
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2016, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Not sure how advanced you are OP, but La Grange is a pretty tough song because of the speed. I'm guessing your teacher wants you to learn a 4 on the floor pattern with a swing play on the hi hats.

La Grange is technically not played with swung eighths on the hi hat. It's quarter notes on the hi hat and 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a on the snare and bass. It's pretty tough because you are accenting 2 & 4 while doing this so it turns into almost playing doubles with your left hand and accenting that 2nd beat (no idea if this is making sense how I'm explaining it but play it out with your left hand doing the swing and play an accent on 2 and 4 and hopefully you'll get what I'm saying).

Not associated with them but onlinedrummer (youtube/website) does a great tutorial on how to play this particular song.
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:55 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
I think you're half right. Yeah, there's a place for picking things up by ear. But, if only I had a pound for every student I've had who's tried to "play by ear" and can't come close to playing what's actually on the records they've been imitating because they A) don't really understand what they're hearing and B) don't have the technical proficiency to play it even when they do. (Oh wait, I sort of do have a pound...) Usually they come up with some facsimile of the part that follows the path of least technical resistance and reflects an incomplete knowledge of how common grooves are constructed. Sometimes what they come up with is really cool and even innovative. But it's not the part, and it's not the sort of thing they'll be expected to be able to do as they move along in their careers. Other times, they just fudge their way through and the result is a sloppy, imprecise and generally lacking groove that's no good to anyone.

This problem is only made worse by the fact that modern records have all kinds of effects and compression on the drums/cymbals so actually deciphering what was played can be a real chore for an inexperienced ear.

Why not attack the problem from both angles? Belts and braces, so to speak. A little help goes a long way. I spend lots of time with my students just listening to things and helping them learn how to hear.
Very true. It's not as if learning the technical aspects of music and drumming kill your ear. That old silly myth that the more technique you know, the less creative you get still seems to hold sway with some. Tired myth that seems to tie in with this. The more technique you know, the better your ear will hear things and the better your ear, the more you learn/pick up resulting in a much better player.

Technique is simply a means to be able to unleash your natural creativity and full potential. If you have no mechanical limitations, then your musical potential is so, so much greater than it would be otherwise. This will also result in your 'ear' suddenly being much better than the next guys. It all comes as a result of learning about the music you're listening to and knowing all facets, technical and theoretical etc.
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Old 03-25-2016, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Originally Posted by jazzin' View Post
Very true. It's not as if learning the technical aspects of music and drumming kill your ear. That old silly myth that the more technique you know, the less creative you get still seems to hold sway with some. Tired myth that seems to tie in with this. The more technique you know, the better your ear will hear things and the better your ear, the more you learn/pick up resulting in a much better player.

Technique is simply a means to be able to unleash your natural creativity and full potential. If you have no mechanical limitations, then your musical potential is so, so much greater than it would be otherwise. This will also result in your 'ear' suddenly being much better than the next guys. It all comes as a result of learning about the music you're listening to and knowing all facets, technical and theoretical etc.
Agreed. And listening is technique that can be learned and developed the same way as your hands.
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

As the one that started this thread, I thought I'd let everyone know, what I have decided to do and not do.

So after considering everyone's posts, I have decided to stop taking lessons with my instructor after a little over a months time (four lessons). I will keep doing the hand exercises and such, but as for getting frustrated trying to play a shuffle beat (a1, a2, a3, a4), which doesn't even interest me. I think I'll put that on the back burner for now.

I will use the same focus, to learn stuff from like, Colin McCowan's Chapter 3, which was actually post #4 of this thread. I'm going in that direction, as playing 16th notes on the hi hat seem more beneficial for the music that I'm seeking to be involved with.

I'm also going to start playing in a band situation sooner, rather than later. So with that said, I'd like to thank everyone that chimed in. Thanks.
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Old 03-31-2016, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by threemoreweeks View Post
As the one that started this thread, I thought I'd let everyone know, what I have decided to do and not do.

So after considering everyone's posts, I have decided to stop taking lessons with my instructor after a little over a months time (four lessons). I will keep doing the hand exercises and such, but as for getting frustrated trying to play a shuffle beat (a1, a2, a3, a4), which doesn't even interest me. I think I'll put that on the back burner for now.

I will use the same focus, to learn stuff from like, Colin McCowan's Chapter 3, which was actually post #4 of this thread. I'm going in that direction, as playing 16th notes on the hi hat seem more beneficial for the music that I'm seeking to be involved with.

I'm also going to start playing in a band situation sooner, rather than later. So with that said, I'd like to thank everyone that chimed in. Thanks.
Hmmm....so your goal is to be able to play in a band, but you feel like you can do without a teacher who has -- presumably - some experience not only playing in bands, but preparing people to play in bands. Moreover, after a few months of studying, not only are you ready to teach yourself, but you are ready to just give up the difficult task of learning to play shuffles because you're "just not interested" and you're not sure it'll be useful for the kind of music you want to pursue (because that isn't likely to change at any point in the future.) Having no musical career to speak of, you are prepared to decide what will be useful to a musical career and what will not and are absolutely sure that the groove that launched pop music and backbeats as we know them will be of absolutely no relevance to you.

SIGH...

What happens on the day when the singer in your pop punk alternative band comes in and says, "Hey, I got this new one with sort of a triplet-y shuffle sort of feel. Chunk-ga-Chunk-ga-Chunk-ga-Chunk-ga..."?

BTW, you say you want to play pop punk. Go check out your Green Day catalogue and tell me how many of their hit tunes are shuffles.

Last edited by Boomka; 03-31-2016 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

quarters
8ths
triplets
shuffles
16th
16th note shuffles

All essential basics of learning music and drumming regardless of your interests. It's like saying you want to learn to read and write, even become a poet or novelist, but deciding that half the letters in the alphabet don't apply to you.
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
What happens on the day when the singer in your pop punk alternative band comes in and says, "Hey, I got this new one with sort of a triplet-y shuffle sort of feel. Chunk-ga-Chunk-ga-Chunk-ga-Chunk-ga..."?

BTW, you say you want to play pop punk. Go check out your Green Day catalogue and tell me how many of their hit tunes are shuffles.
Can I play? I'm not familiar with Green Day's entire catalog, but enough to know their first major hit was triplet based, and two metric fooktons after that.

So okay fair enough, there's the music you're interested in pursuing, but as the drummer in any band, you're at the mercy of whoever is writing the songs, so if they suddenly show up one day with a shuffle, you'll be screwed. You might even get sacked.

From oldies and classic rock right up to the pop punk alt hipster shtick, plus hip hop, triplet grooves are simply a basic rock staple (not to mention the bedrock of virtually all blues and jazz, from which rock is derived), so take the time to include in your skill set - or eventually get caught with your pants down.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticles View Post
I have a headache reading all this.

Pop, Punk. Alternative & Indie music is best played by ear. If you can't do that to a certain extent then you are going wrong somewhere.
Listen to the genre's & play along to the songs. These should be easy to pick up very quickly
Half the songs in those genres are played with a shuffle. It is an essential tool. Plus there are lots of shuffles to master, some quite difficult, so the OP may as well get started early.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

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Can I play? I'm not familiar with Green Day's entire catalog, but enough to know their first major hit was triplet based, and two metric fooktons after that.
Holiday and Minority are both shuffle based.
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:03 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by threemoreweeks View Post
As the one that started this thread, I thought I'd let everyone know, what I have decided to do and not do.

So after considering everyone's posts, I have decided to stop taking lessons with my instructor after a little over a months time (four lessons). I will keep doing the hand exercises and such, but as for getting frustrated trying to play a shuffle beat (a1, a2, a3, a4), which doesn't even interest me. I think I'll put that on the back burner for now.

I will use the same focus, to learn stuff from like, Colin McCowan's Chapter 3, which was actually post #4 of this thread. I'm going in that direction, as playing 16th notes on the hi hat seem more beneficial for the music that I'm seeking to be involved with.

I'm also going to start playing in a band situation sooner, rather than later. So with that said, I'd like to thank everyone that chimed in. Thanks.
Bizarre approach. Here's hoping you don't decide to take a disliking to 16th note partials as well as triplets.......you'll fast run out of things to play.

Best of luck with it though. I'll be keen to hear how only playing straight time works out for you in the real world.
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Old 04-01-2016, 07:38 AM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

I once had a guitar student who had played for a couple of years, but didn't really know anything more than an open D and Em.

He didn't really want to learn anything more as he thought he knew enough and had developed his own style.
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Old 04-01-2016, 01:00 PM
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by threemoreweeks View Post
As the one that started this thread, I thought I'd let everyone know, what I have decided to do and not do.

So after considering everyone's posts, I have decided to stop taking lessons with my instructor after a little over a months time (four lessons). I will keep doing the hand exercises and such, but as for getting frustrated trying to play a shuffle beat (a1, a2, a3, a4), which doesn't even interest me. I think I'll put that on the back burner for now.

I will use the same focus, to learn stuff from like, Colin McCowan's Chapter 3, which was actually post #4 of this thread. I'm going in that direction, as playing 16th notes on the hi hat seem more beneficial for the music that I'm seeking to be involved with.

I'm also going to start playing in a band situation sooner, rather than later. So with that said, I'd like to thank everyone that chimed in. Thanks.
OK. The important thing is that you keep learning new things to play. If you decide not to take your teacher's direction, you have to set your own direction. But keep working at it if you want to get better. You only get out what you put in.

Getting into a band early is definitely good, as it will give you some direction and context (and probably some new beats to learn). Maybe you're not feeling the need to learn a shuffle yet - that's OK, but at some time you'll probably decide you're ready for it.

In the meantime, don't shy away from learning something just because it seems difficult. We all find new things challenging to some extent - taking the time to work through a new beat/style until it becomes natural is a normal part of the development process. The more times you learn something new, the easier the learning process becomes.

In the meantime, don't lose your teacher's phone number - you may want to go back to him. And as you will have noticed, there's no shortage of advice here if you're looking for it!
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  #31  
Old 04-01-2016, 05:04 PM
4815162342 4815162342 is offline
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Default Re: Alternative Rock: After 8's what next?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomka View Post
Holiday and Minority are both shuffle based.
And Hitchin' A Ride.
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