DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #121  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:13 AM
shemp's Avatar
shemp shemp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 872
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Folks...hasn't this gone on long enough?

What nobody here knows is that the incident was over long ago as Andy and I corresponded right after the original thread was removed.

I did ask him to *please* not stop anything based on my singular opinion. In effect that says that my opinion is worthless as compared to the whole of the community. If that is not a fair response to my original statement, I'm not sure what is. And I do feel my opinion is not worth changing one's behavior over nor did I ask for anyone to change their behavior. Finally, on that point, it does continue to remain my opinion...intent notwithstanding, the result is still the same and that is what I took issue with.

It's not for anyone here to tell me what I should and should not take issue with...especially when it comes to stating one's point of view. If you don't like it, I accept that.

I don't mind being vilified here and I understand where it is coming from...I also have no doubts that Andy is an awesome fella and that his product is awesome. I can see myself purchasing some of his product...there is absolutely nothing personal here from my end.

The end is still the beginning in terms of my personal view on the matter. If you don't like it, so be it. Please ask Andy to continue forward. I'm not going to ask anyone to change their behavior.
  #122  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:15 AM
IDDrummer's Avatar
IDDrummer IDDrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Mid-Atlantic
Posts: 5,199
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Either that or keep things as they are and make it clearly understood that anything anyone says about their drumming products is OK.
The more I think about it, the more I think all we really need is for Bernhard to say it's fine for participating members to hawk their wares. All this dancing around seems ridiculous.
  #123  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:17 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,388
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

He has his opinion and I have mine. Ban Shemp and let's go back to 48 hrs ago. Simple as that.
  #124  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:21 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,360
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Is talking about one's products technically not allowed under the current system?
You don't reckon Bernhard or Grunter or Jon or Arky or Dog or Nutha wouldn't have put their foot down, set us all straight and placed a blanket ban long ago if there wasn't scope to do so?

Leave the place as it is. There's a reason I signed on here and the ability to get a perspective from those on the "inside" is a big part of that. Why should one or two dissenting voices change the whole set up? Why should they dictate to Bernhard how he should run his own bloody forum? Bugger that.

Bernhard and the mods are quite capable of dealing with unwarranted shilling. Anyone who has a problem with the way they operate can take it up with them......or go be king of the hill on their own forum, where their own rules apply and are enforced as they see fit.
  #125  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:23 AM
porter's Avatar
porter porter is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,447
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
He has his opinion and I have mine. Ban Shemp and let's go back to 48 hrs ago. Simple as that.
Oh yeah, that makes sense, because he broke so many forum rules and absolutely deserves to be banned. /s

While I don't understand why Shemp chose to express his opinion about that particular post, and not some other, more obviously marketing thread, he did not break forum rules by doing so and of course it was Andy's decision to stop posting about Guru.
__________________
Check out my Youtube channel!
  #126  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:32 AM
Midnite Zephyr's Avatar
Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Surf City, USA
Posts: 6,155
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Should I weigh in on this? Nah... Enough has been said already.

I just ask this one question. What the heck else is Andy supposed to talk about? His Spaun set and his Amedia cymbals?

Amedia vs. Istanbul...so what do you think, Andy? Who wins?

Ummm. How about Brady vs. C&C? What say you, Andy? Who wins that one?

When you post something in the Your Playing section, who is there for you more often than any other member? Yep, it's Andy. Rock on, Andy.
Have you seen his post count? The guy feels very comfortable here, and likes to contribute. I applaud that aspect of his personality.
__________________
Drumming for fun.
  #127  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:36 AM
drummerjims's Avatar
drummerjims drummerjims is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: US
Posts: 266
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Folks...hasn't this gone on long enough?

What nobody here knows is that the incident was over long ago as Andy and I corresponded right after the original thread was removed.

I did ask him to *please* not stop anything based on my singular opinion. In effect that says that my opinion is worthless as compared to the whole of the community. If that is not a fair response to my original statement, I'm not sure what is. And I do feel my opinion is not worth changing one's behavior over nor did I ask for anyone to change their behavior. Finally, on that point, it does continue to remain my opinion...intent notwithstanding, the result is still the same and that is what I took issue with.

It's not for anyone here to tell me what I should and should not take issue with...especially when it comes to stating one's point of view. If you don't like it, I accept that.

I don't mind being vilified here and I understand where it is coming from...I also have no doubts that Andy is an awesome fella and that his product is awesome. I can see myself purchasing some of his product...there is absolutely nothing personal here from my end.

The end is still the beginning in terms of my personal view on the matter. If you don't like it, so be it. Please ask Andy to continue forward. I'm not going to ask anyone to change their behavior.
Even though I don't agree with what I have read you said. I think this statement is great and everyone should forgive and forget. This is a forum which means this is a place for opinions. Feelings get hurt yada yada yada but sometimes we have to overlook things because it is such a huge community with several opinions.
  #128  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:40 AM
sethlowden's Avatar
sethlowden sethlowden is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Hoosierland
Posts: 229
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

I saw that thread unfold. I can see Shemp's point of view, but don't agree with it. I used to spend a lot of time on several woodworking forums where it is common practice for toolmakers, magazine writers and editors, book publishers, etc., to post freely on the message boards. As matter of fact, people actually encourage it, because they like that kind of information. If you don't like what they are posting, don't read it, and don't buy their stuff. Easy enough to gloss over the Guru posts if you aren't interested.
  #129  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:41 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,443
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

So I guess from now on all posts will read some thing like:

Hey I was the [store name withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] looking at two drum sets.

I narrowed it down between a 5pc [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] drum set or this cool [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising].

I settled on a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] kit with a set of [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] cymbals.

i wasn't much into the stock heads, so I changed them out [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] heads.

Which was cool, because my band [band withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] had a gig at [club withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising]. The sound man put a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mic on my bass drum and two [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mics overhead. I was amazed how good it sounded!

My friend took an awesome video of the whole thing, but I'll be sure to not post it anywhere so as not to make anyone think I am advertising myself.
  #130  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:51 AM
Razbo Razbo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Halifax NS
Posts: 99
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Hyde View Post
the issue i have with a sub forum for manufacturers is we wont get the cool pics from Andy or some of the other manufacturers we like when they post them. it will mostly be ignored after a while because of the piles of spam it will generate. i dont go to the classified section unless im in the market for something so i wont go to a manufacturers sub-forum because im not buying any new drums. it was nice seeing stuff posted where it was, my gear/playing sections or whatever. i search "New Posts" and look at who the latest is from and decide to go in from there. if i see in a sub forum those crazy unreadable names or iphone spam i wont go in and in turn, miss out on my favorite stuff.
This is kind of my feeling about a sub forum as well. This is just me, but on any boards, I usually hit (lurk) the General and the Gear sections. Rarely do I look in classified, and probably would not look more often in a marketing sub forum. The way this board has worked in the General sub forum has been ok by me. Especially when taken in context with EvansSpecialist and the like... I would never see this information otherwise.

I happened to catch the thread unfolding. As an also newb to the board, I do see where Shemp was coming from a bit. I mean, my neck hairs stand up when I think I'm being marketed to. :) I did see the GURU posts and occasionally felt it was a bit of a product promotion. Not real overt, but "hey, BTW, I make drums" was apparent. Even so, it wasn't spammy and it was nothing that stuck in my mind, and, hey, they were real cool drums and the brand per se was usually only related to the content of the post. If that even makes sense to anyone but me.

Going back to my first point, in a sub forum, I'd probably still not know about them. Gentle introduction in the General forum has not only introduced that brand, but also construction techniques I knew little or nothing about.

A marketing sub forum could be a good idea for really putting out products, and give a freedom to really let loose how wondrous are these new innovations of sticks, cymbals, drums or whatever. I think the General sub forum should be just that: "general" and have a bit of leeway. I've only been here a few months, but I have not found anything to be offensive in the General forum. Even the bits of drama can be entertaining.

As a newb on any board, I often sense the 'old boys club' (just a turn of phrase, ladies), so I do give some kudos as well to Shemp and standing by what he felt was right in the face of pretty much unanimous opposition. I liked Anon's words that independance was won by terrorists. heheh.

So, bottom line for me, I think a sub forum would be great, and anyone would then be able to give all out reviews and commentary. General should have some leeway, lest some great contributions be lost. And us newbs need to not rustle up the old school needlessly once having given our opinion. :)
  #131  
Old 12-06-2013, 03:55 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Another thing. The forum is built from a standard template. You can't add or subtract that easily and it depends on what components, if any, are left over from the initial installation.
__________________
Soundcloud
  #132  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:05 AM
Midnite Zephyr's Avatar
Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Surf City, USA
Posts: 6,155
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Another thing. The forum is built from a standard template. You can't add or subtract that easily and it depends on what components, if any, are left over from the initial installation.
True. The best you can do is a Sticky Thread.

Whether it should be done or not is another issue of which I have no opinion. Sorry, Larry.
__________________
Drumming for fun.
  #133  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:08 AM
PQleyR's Avatar
PQleyR PQleyR is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Godalming, UK
Posts: 2,372
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Arriving late to the discussion, as I am, I'll keep my contribution fairly brief.

The main issue this all raises for me is something I've been wondering for a while now. What is the 'General Discussion' forum actually for? It's obviously not for discussions of technique, we have a subforum for that. Nor is it for discussions of drums, cymbals, hardware, pedals...there's a subforum for that too. It's certainly not for posting your own playing, that's 'Your Playing'...it can't be for showing off your drums, that's 'Your Gear', nor is it for talking about specific drummers...that's 'Drummers'...etc.

So my question is really this: what's left when you take away all these things? Is there anything?

Of course, General Discussion is probably the most-visited part of the forum, so if you want people to see your post (and you wouldn't, I assume, be posting it otherwise), that's the place to put it...but how do we all really know what we're supposed to put on there? If we added a 'Marketing' or 'Products' subforum, this question would become even more challenging to answer.
__________________
Dream Cymbals
Los Cabos Drumsticks
  #134  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:10 AM
TTNW's Avatar
TTNW TTNW is offline
Pioneer Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Posts: 2,010
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Some one posts a thread to an entire community....

"Come check out my website and give me comments"

Does that expose a product to a community? Yes

Is it saying "Come look at this great new product"? No

For someone new here to go to that website they get exposed to a new product

Egregious or not, that is the definition of thinly veiled marketing...it's simple logic.

Whether I'm here a day or 10 years does not make any difference...My opinion is just as valid and sentient as anyone elses...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Thank you for your opinion....using an emotional outburst to try and offend me and telling me to go away will not alter my thinking or my behavior.

I stand by what I said...it is marketing; like it or not...and it should not continue..in my opinion
Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
The difference, Shemp, is that Andy built his reputation on here long before he was involved in Guru drums. If it was a new poster aggressively marketing, it would be different. Neither was the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I think what I did was express an opinion about something...if you don't like my opinion or the result of my comment, then you find that I am less than a good person...

If you apply some logic to that, it might put you in a rather dim light. think about it
Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
That is not a cogent point or application...it does not matter what the genesis is...this is not a popularity contest...its a logical discussion that says that someone was marketing their product through use of a community

The answer is a resounding yes....the rest is gratuitous information...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
The music business contains two words "music" and "business".

Both get discussed here quite frequently. And while I think money has a bad habit of ruining art, none the less, business is part of making music.

So we discuss the business aspect of music frequently here. The good, the bad, things we observe, and things we are involved in.

Inevitably someone questions why. But business 1/2 the conversation when discussing the music business. If we can't discuss it freely without someone taking offense, then 1/2 our conversations are gone.

If you don't like a topic, don't read it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
No offense, but I don't think this really solves anything. The thing about Andy's posts is, they were not marketing. He was usually excited about some event or gig he played/wanted to share, and part of the excitement was the drums he built.

It seems to me like this sub forum idea would be a burden to him because he might wonder if he has to post something there if he mentions for example, what guru snare he was using on a video, or just wants to informally discuss his website as he's building it.

I don't think he's the type to come around and post up a bunch of brochure material in some kind of advertising sub-forum that most sane people would steer clear of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
Then allow me to use mine for the first time in 4 odd years......

What a fucking circus!! I'm genuinely bloody staggered this is even an issue.

The reason the "no advertising" rule was created is as plain as the nose on your face. It was designed to stop the hit and run spammer......surely this is obvious to even the most feeble minded? Quite a bit of leeway is offered here. The ones who break the spirit of that are easily identifiable.....hint, they're not the ones who actively contribute to the wider forum as well. The fact that Bernhard allows regular contributing members to let us know their wares are available is a sure fire sign that it breaks no DW rules, no?

Andy isn't the only one able to offer a unique perspective from inside the business....and thank christ for it. Sometimes that inside knowledge can be far more beneficial.......whether it be one of the various drum makers, cymbalsmiths, retail store owners, company employees, teachers or professional endorsers that frequent this place.......that knowledge often goes above and beyond the limited scop offered by some kid in his bedroom with fifteen minutes experience.

And people wanna shut that down? FFS!

Don't like it? Fine.....start your own forum and create your own rules. But until then. let the site owner and mods determine who crosses boundaries and who doesn't
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
The classified section, is for somebody specifically selling gear. I think there is a need for another section so people can discuss anything related to their business venture. That way any thread in that section can be avoided if desired. Even if a person hits the new posts button, the sub-forum is still listed and can be avoided. Everyone wins. Either that or keep things as they are and make it clearly understood that anything anyone says about their drumming products is OK.

It's kind of like that now, but not really, that's why we're here now. It's a gray area, that is sort of under a rule, but that rule is not rigorously enforced. I would like some official clarification. Is talking about one's products technically not allowed under the current system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Folks...hasn't this gone on long enough?

What nobody here knows is that the incident was over long ago as Andy and I corresponded right after the original thread was removed.

I did ask him to *please* not stop anything based on my singular opinion. In effect that says that my opinion is worthless as compared to the whole of the community. If that is not a fair response to my original statement, I'm not sure what is. And I do feel my opinion is not worth changing one's behavior over nor did I ask for anyone to change their behavior. Finally, on that point, it does continue to remain my opinion...intent notwithstanding, the result is still the same and that is what I took issue with.

It's not for anyone here to tell me what I should and should not take issue with...especially when it comes to stating one's point of view. If you don't like it, I accept that.

I don't mind being vilified here and I understand where it is coming from...I also have no doubts that Andy is an awesome fella and that his product is awesome. I can see myself purchasing some of his product...there is absolutely nothing personal here from my end.

The end is still the beginning in terms of my personal view on the matter. If you don't like it, so be it. Please ask Andy to continue forward. I'm not going to ask anyone to change their behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
You don't reckon Bernhard or Grunter or Jon or Arky or Dog or Nutha wouldn't have put their foot down, set us all straight and placed a blanket ban long ago if there wasn't scope to do so?

Leave the place as it is. There's a reason I signed on here and the ability to get a perspective from those on the "inside" is a big part of that. Why should one or two dissenting voices change the whole set up? Why should they dictate to Bernhard how he should run his own bloody forum? Bugger that.

Bernhard and the mods are quite capable of dealing with unwarranted shilling. Anyone who has a problem with the way they operate can take it up with them......or go be king of the hill on their own forum, where their own rules apply and are enforced as they see fit.
These posts are a good summary of the whole issue. Maybe Bernhard will weigh in on this but otherwise I applaud everyone for being so "unlike" every other forum I've ever visited except for Cymbalholic.com

Larry's idea for a sub forum sounds good at first glance but I think in addition to the mods we self regulate quite well. I don't think we need to create a sub forum. It will just end up being a cess pool of spam that really great guys (like Andy, Bill Bachman, EvansSpecialist, Bill PP, and many others) with obvious ethics would have to swim in.

Personally, I don't want to have to filter all of that to get the great info that these guys pass along.

I hope rational minds prevail. I still love this forum.
__________________
Philippe - Eat, Sleep and Drum.. .. it makes for a good weekend.
  #135  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:24 AM
BabyBob's Avatar
BabyBob BabyBob is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Malaysia.... KL
Posts: 860
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Good idea Larry, you got my vote. I don't see any cons of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
So I guess from now on all posts will read some thing like:

Hey I was the [store name withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] looking at two drum sets.

I narrowed it down between a 5pc [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] drum set or this cool [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising].

I settled on a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] kit with a set of [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] cymbals.

i wasn't much into the stock heads, so I changed them out [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] heads.

Which was cool, because my band [band withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] had a gig at [club withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising]. The sound man put a [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mic on my bass drum and two [brand withheld so as not to make anyone think this is advertising] mics overhead. I was amazed how good it sounded!

My friend took an awesome video of the whole thing, but I'll be sure to not post it anywhere so as not to make anyone think I am advertising myself.
If this happens...I'm lost for words.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameo View Post
As chick as Chick Corea (or Chick Webb) for a chick like BabyBob.
  #136  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:32 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,443
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Another thing. The forum is built from a standard template. You can't add or subtract that easily and it depends on what components, if any, are left over from the initial installation.
Not true.

I admin another site that uses this same software. It's just a few clicks of a button.
  #137  
Old 12-06-2013, 04:54 AM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 22,363
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

The boss has spoken and I will share his thoughts. Thank you for keeping it fairly civil, and now it is time to move on. We will all have differing opinions on many subjects but for now here is the boss's thought:

a new Forum section: NO. In the past we had some good ideas to make a section for this and that - just to find out at the end, it starts to be confusing - keep it simple is my opinion the way to go... Bernhard.
__________________
Johnny. Pictured left to right, Bermuda, Weird Al, Grunt.
  #138  
Old 12-06-2013, 05:30 AM
wildbill's Avatar
wildbill wildbill is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Midwest - USA
Posts: 6,982
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Hope it's not too late to say I changed my mind about the desirability of a new section (not that it matters - ha ha - Bernhard has spoken and I agree with him).

I like the forum the way it is - occasional irrational outbursts and all.

I do think that new members should try and get a feel for the place and its members before stirring up hornet's nests though.
  #139  
Old 12-06-2013, 05:38 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,242
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

TBH the only reason I suggested a new sub forum was as a courtesy to the members here who don't want to be advertised to....so they can avoid it. IMO, we have enough sub forums that cover everything nicely already, provided we are permitted to speak about any products we may be selling..

Which I am still unclear about if we are allowed to or not.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
  #140  
Old 12-06-2013, 05:59 AM
shemp's Avatar
shemp shemp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 872
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
TBH the only reason I suggested a new sub forum was as a courtesy to the members here who don't want to be advertised to....so they can avoid it. IMO, we have enough sub forums that cover everything nicely already, provided we are permitted to speak about any products we may be selling..

Which I am still unclear about if we are allowed to or not.
Ostensibly, on any forum, members that are business owners should not be posting in a way that promotes their product....it is built in free marketing. No matter how it is presented or what guise it may be under it is still marketing. That's what businesses have websites for and a marketing budget.

A business owner can just as well expound on their products and innovations and events on their own site...and the motivated individuals that want to learn about it can go there....that is why companies have their OWN forums....for that express purpose.

My opinion is that people should not be selling or marketing on forums like this no matter how it is presented. Again, an opinion....

Last edited by shemp; 12-06-2013 at 06:12 AM.
  #141  
Old 12-06-2013, 06:04 AM
Aeolian's Avatar
Aeolian Aeolian is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Cruz CA
Posts: 2,013
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Got about halfway though this thread and got tired of a self-righteous troll defending himself with self-righteousness. I have no time for people who need to be right even if it means being right all by their lonesome. Internet forums are not "public" places like town squares. They are private communities, funded by various individuals, for interchange around a common interest.

Larry,

IMHO having a "commercial" discussion area would tend to invite the drive-bys. I suspect it would get flooded quickly with advertising dreck that nobody would bother to read or even go into that section. And just use up Bernhard's server space to no good avail. And all the marketing posters would just whine like our friend here that it is a "public" forum, and they have a "right" to post their ads since that is the designated area.

What about opening up the rules a bit in the gear section? So that someone truly seeking feedback about a design or innovation can discuss it with users. Leave it up to the mods if it is something of interest to the community. Use patent law as a benchmark. Is it actually unique or innovative? Is the intent of the thread to solicit feedback, or engender discussion of the relative merits? Or is it just advertising existing or warmed over existing product.
  #142  
Old 12-06-2013, 06:08 AM
shemp's Avatar
shemp shemp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 872
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
Got about halfway though this thread and got tired of a self-righteous troll defending himself with self-righteousness. I have no time for people who need to be right even if it means being right all by their lonesome. Internet forums are not "public" places like town squares. They are private communities, funded by various individuals, for interchange around a common interest.

Larry,

IMHO having a "commercial" discussion area would tend to invite the drive-bys. I suspect it would get flooded quickly with advertising dreck that nobody would bother to read or even go into that section. And just use up Bernhard's server space to no good avail. And all the marketing posters would just whine like our friend here that it is a "public" forum, and they have a "right" to post their ads since that is the designated area.

What about opening up the rules a bit in the gear section? So that someone truly seeking feedback about a design or innovation can discuss it with users. Leave it up to the mods if it is something of interest to the community. Use patent law as a benchmark. Is it actually unique or innovative? Is the intent of the thread to solicit feedback, or engender discussion of the relative merits? Or is it just advertising existing or warmed over existing product.
I'm not a troll....I expressed a valid point....and I'm not denigrating others in the process.
  #143  
Old 12-06-2013, 06:33 AM
TWerner TWerner is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NC
Posts: 269
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

I'll trust Anon's opinion more than all of you posters who didn't even see the thread. Shemp may have been mistaken about Andy's intent, and he may have expressed it in a rude way, but he wasn't being a troll. He was trying to be the opposite of a troll.

Andy's strong reaction to Shemp's opinion should indicate to everyone that this was something he was already feeling concern about. He clearly doesn't like that his enthusiasm in talking about Guru's products in such depth and frequency can come across as intentional marketing to some of us. There's nothing wrong with Andy talking up a product he loves, but it is marketing. It's actually fantastic marketing.

Respect Andy's choice. He doesn't want good marketing to be seen as any source of his motivation for his posting here. It doesn't mean he can't talk about Guru, it just means that if you want to know what is going on at Guru, you're now going to have to ask him for an update.
  #144  
Old 12-06-2013, 06:40 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Not true.

I admin another site that uses this same software. It's just a few clicks of a button.
That's not what I've heard from mods in the past, Ian.
__________________
Soundcloud
  #145  
Old 12-06-2013, 06:55 AM
jodgey4's Avatar
jodgey4 jodgey4 is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: TX
Posts: 899
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I'm not a troll....I expressed a valid point....and I'm not denigrating others in the process.
True, you are not. Your opinions are just that, opinions, and we respect that. You are entitled to say that marketing in any form should be not allowed on this forum - which is happening... your reasoning I would love to hear.

Never did anybody involved break any rules, nor were they accused of it. Therefore, the rules - I'll place a Guru set on it for every member - will NOT change. It would be misguided, unnecessary, and inappropriate. I trust the mods and everyone to recognize this.

Andy, if you don't chime in, I'm going to start a new thread every week asking you how you are, and how Guru is :). I admire your humility and self-consciousness, but there has to be another solution. Let's all try to work this out.
__________________
Support local drum stores!
  #146  
Old 12-06-2013, 07:22 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
The simple fact is that a mfg of drums is/was using this community to, maybe not push, but *market* their product....there can be no denying this and if we took the posts to an arbitrator it would be the sure conclusion....of course there is no need to do that....and this is not that serious of an issue.
He isn't a manufacturer of drums…he's a friend. To some of us he is, anyway.
__________________
Call me J
  #147  
Old 12-06-2013, 07:29 AM
shemp's Avatar
shemp shemp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 872
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by jodgey4 View Post
True, you are not. Your opinions are just that, opinions, and we respect that. You are entitled to say that marketing in any form should be not allowed on this forum - which is happening... your reasoning I would love to hear.

Never did anybody involved break any rules, nor were they accused of it. Therefore, the rules - I'll place a Guru set on it for every member - will NOT change. It would be misguided, unnecessary, and inappropriate. I trust the mods and everyone to recognize this.

Andy, if you don't chime in, I'm going to start a new thread every week asking you how you are, and how Guru is :). I admire your humility and self-consciousness, but there has to be another solution. Let's all try to work this out.
Thank you for acknowledging that im not a troll....I appreciate that.

If you or I engage in a discussion about drum company X....and we are talking how we love it or asking a question, that may be awareness for company X, but I don't own company X (and assuming you don't either) and there is nothing to gain or lose for us by innocently discussing the virtues, or lack thereof of Company X....and thus no conflict of interest and no self promotion. And it is unbiased opinions of company X relative to how the performance of the company is affected. Thus there is no marketing of a self interest....if you or I owned company X, then intended or not, there is now going to be a built in bias and there is also built-in self promotion and potential gain to be had. Doesn't matter if it is transparent or veiled it is a conflict relative to unbiased opinion and promotion. That kind of activity, IMO, does not belong in a non-company forum.

That is my reasoning. I'm not labeling it a crime or an infraction of this sites specific code of conduct, but to me, it is a breach of conduct for a company, any company, to endear itself to a community and expose its product while doing so. They can do that on their own site and forum.

Some folks don't want to come here and see "look at me"...."btw, my product does this and is this, etc." Its annoying to some and reeks of shameless self promotion. And I'm not singleing out any individual or quoting any individual....it could apply to any company.

Those that are annoyed should feel free to speak up....and so I did.
  #148  
Old 12-06-2013, 07:29 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
The simple fact is that a mfg of drums is/was using this community to, maybe not push, but *market* their product....there can be no denying this and if we took the posts to an arbitrator it would be the sure conclusion....of course there is no need to do that....and this is not that serious of an issue.
He isn't a manufacturer of drums…he's a friend. To some of us he is, anyway. Why be so pedantic? What's in that for you?
__________________
Call me J
  #149  
Old 12-06-2013, 07:50 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,360
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
That kind of activity, IMO, does not belong in a non-company forum.
In your world maybe. In mine, I encourage the Andy's and the Motley's and the Uniongoon's and the Wac'd Drums and the Evans Spec's and the Shane from Just Drums and the MBettis' and the Cymbalise's and the Bill Bachman's and the Jeff Johnson's, the Pat Petrillo's and the Derek Roddy's to keep participating.....even if that means they may venture into a realm keeping us updated on things of a more commercial nature from time to time.

It's access to these types of people that make this place so inviting. That raises it a level above many of the alternative forums out there that seem to be little more than continual one upmanship between 15 year old kids with "opinions" but very little fact. That's exactly why I chose this place to participate in to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Those that are annoyed should feel free to speak up....and so I did.
As is your right. And it's ours who are annoyed at your eagerness to keep rocking the boat on this issue, to speak right back.
  #150  
Old 12-06-2013, 07:59 AM
shemp's Avatar
shemp shemp is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 872
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
In your world maybe. In mine, I encourage the Andy's and the Motley's and the Uniongoon's and the Wac'd Drums and the Evans Spec's and the Shane from Just Drums and the MBettis' and the Cymbalise's and the Bill Bachman's and the Jeff Johnson's, the Pat Petrillo's and the Derek Roddy's to keep participating.....even if that means they may venture into a realm keeping us updated on things of a more commercial nature from time to time.

It's access to these types of people that make this place so inviting. That raises it a level above many of the alternative forums out there that seem to be little more than continual one upmanship between 15 year old kids with "opinions" but very little fact. That's exactly why I chose this place to participate in to begin with.



As is your right. And it's ours who are annoyed at your eagerness to keep rocking the boat on this issue, to speak right back.
I accept your opinion and yes, if you are annoyed by my position or vocalizing of it, you should also say it....right on.
  #151  
Old 12-06-2013, 08:02 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I accept your opinion and yes, if you are annoyed by my position or vocalizing of it, you should also say it....right on.
Your position is that of a policeman who insists that the fun has to stop because some arcane little rule is being violated. Now why would you want to be like that?

Why would anyone want to be like that?
__________________
Call me J
  #152  
Old 12-06-2013, 08:10 AM
MPortnoy MPortnoy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 139
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Like someone said before, I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars in a kit just because someone asked me to take a look at his website and even if I did, what do you care?? What are you, the Drum Marketing Police???

All the big companies get free advertising when anyone asks if this or that kit is better than the other, so who cares??
  #153  
Old 12-06-2013, 08:21 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

The more I think about this the more cross I get.

Think of a violin player's discussion forum, and a guy coming along and insisting that Stradivarius not be allowed to talk about the art and science of violin-making and the instruments that he's building because it's "marketing."
__________________
Call me J
  #154  
Old 12-06-2013, 08:31 AM
Magenta's Avatar
Magenta Magenta is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Gwlad Cymru
Posts: 3,208
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

The only opinions which carry any real weight here are Bernhard's and those of the mods. If you had a concern, Shemp, you should have raised it with one of them, not directly with Andy, and they would have explained to you, privately, how things stood. The way things are done here works, whether you like it or not.

It wasn't broken, but you came along and fixed it, and in the process you will have caused Andy anguish, which you had no business to do, and now he's the victim of his own hyper-honourability and integrity.
__________________
Thinly veiled angel

Ladies & gentlemen, I've suffered for my art. Now it's your turn (Neil Innes)
  #155  
Old 12-06-2013, 10:04 AM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 6,227
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
It wasn't broken, but you came along and fixed it, and in the process you will have caused Andy anguish, which you had no business to do, and now he's the victim of his own hyper-honourability and integrity.
Perfectly said ...
__________________
I'm Swissman
  #156  
Old 12-06-2013, 10:20 AM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,836
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Ok, after catching up on this thread this morning, I'm overwhelmed by the responses supporting my activities here. Quite humbling & slightly embarrassing TBH. This is not a fuss I asked for or courted. I've taken a decision based on a lot of considerations, but those are personal to me. The one thing I absolutely don't want, is for my decision to skew or otherwise influence how people interface with this forum. Most specifically, how others involved in the industry do so.

I happen to believe that most here with inside industry interest have a great deal to offer. They're part of the balance that makes this forum different to others. So long as their input is as non partisan as it's reasonable to be, I don't see an issue. Let's take Bermuda as a prime example. We all know of his relationship with Ludwig, & he provides insights into activities & new stuff happening from time to time, but also notice how he's quick to point out failings too. That readiness to take a non partisan stance when it's clearly not in his personal interest to do so, engenders respect for his opinion as having value. If other drum (or whatever industry related wares) companies want to chime in here, I view that as being for the greater good. It's pretty obvious when their interest is in one direction only, & thus easy to ignore if you're so inclined. The flip side is that it opens up a direct connection to decision makers that many members may find useful, or at least, interesting. Frankly speaking, be grateful that busy industry insiders actually spare the time to interface with a forum in a meaningful way.

Then there's the subject of disclosure. Ask yourselves this. How many members of various forums actually have some commercial interest but don't declare it? Such members would be free to engage in constant subtle marketing activities without their motives ever being questioned. If you're seeking out "smart" marketing on forums, that's damn smart IMO. Let's also examine the cost vs. benefit of truly mounting an intentional program of marketing on a forum under the guise of general participation. There's no way that's ever going to pay off. When I think of the time I put into background assistance on here (the stuff you guys never see, generally via PM's with individuals), & the hard won technical features I actually let go freely when there's absolutely no benefit to me whatsoever, it's close to a one way street alright, but not in the direction you would first believe. Heck, I've even passed on proprietary R&D to members for them to freely pass on to the other drum company that's building their kit!

I'm glad, in some ways that this subject was raised. It's encouraged me to examine what I'm really doing here. My posts here have only ever been on the basis of being happy & enthusiastic about what I'm doing. The simple pleasure of sharing good news, & seeing others perceive value in it. No different to any other member sharing good news & experiences. From now on, I'm happy to pass on general advice if it's sought, but from Andy the simple rock drummer, not Andy the drum company owner. Nor will there be any further insight into new technologies/processes/thinking, or back stories. With the exception of a few close contacts & existing customers, anyone who's interested in what I'm up to can find out through the normal channels, just like every other company out there.

As I've taken this decision, I forego the right to post up pictures & other stuff that can be perceived as having an intentional marketing element. It's a shame really, but in light of a growing body of opinion I'm sensing, it's the only rational choice, & one that will benefit me for a change. This leaves me free to post as the drummer I am without having to think about perceptions outside of my credibility as a player, & frees up time for me to do things that actually benefit me & my company. To repeat, this is a personal decision, & should in no way affect others in my position who are contemplating contributions to the forum.

I want to close by thanking all those who have contributed to the richness of what we've created. Input from members here has been very useful, & I hope those who've contributed feel that value & our appreciation.

Andy.
  #157  
Old 12-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Beam Me Up Scotty's Avatar
Beam Me Up Scotty Beam Me Up Scotty is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 973
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Thank you for acknowledging that im not a troll....I appreciate that.

If you or I engage in a discussion about drum company X....and we are talking how we love it or asking a question, that may be awareness for company X, but I don't own company X (and assuming you don't either) and there is nothing to gain or lose for us by innocently discussing the virtues, or lack thereof of Company X....and thus no conflict of interest and no self promotion. And it is unbiased opinions of company X relative to how the performance of the company is affected. Thus there is no marketing of a self interest....if you or I owned company X, then intended or not, there is now going to be a built in bias and there is also built-in self promotion and potential gain to be had. Doesn't matter if it is transparent or veiled it is a conflict relative to unbiased opinion and promotion. That kind of activity, IMO, does not belong in a non-company forum.

That is my reasoning. I'm not labeling it a crime or an infraction of this sites specific code of conduct, but to me, it is a breach of conduct for a company, any company, to endear itself to a community and expose its product while doing so. They can do that on their own site and forum.

Some folks don't want to come here and see "look at me"...."btw, my product does this and is this, etc." Its annoying to some and reeks of shameless self promotion. And I'm not singleing out any individual or quoting any individual....it could apply to any company.

Those that are annoyed should feel free to speak up....and so I did.
Okay, first off, I'm gonna say that I actually read every post in this thread.

Wow.

Secondly, Shemp, I'd like to clarify, this "thinly veiled marketing" bothers you? Don't get me wrong, your opinion is a valid one, and although it seems to have ruffled some feathers, well, it happens.

What happened with Andy and Guru is irrelevant; that was Andy's decision, and judging by his posts, he's okay with that. Cool.

But what I don't get is why this bothers you so much? I mean, we have so many different people "marketing" (and I use the term loosely) and showing off their wares all the time. I myself relish such posts, as it usually gives us some insight into the creation of said product; why was Process A was used, what makes it better than Process B, and what does that mean for us drummers?
I'm just going to run with Guru as the example here, and say that Andy's posts - while yes, they do show off his product, and yes, he does indeed benefit from it - are part of a two-way street. Andy posts and asks a question, takes the feedback he gets, and in turn improves a product. Meanwhile, we as drummers are treated to some interesting and often useful information which ultimately increases our knowledge about our instruments. This in turn can help us hone our own tastes, and thus make better-informed decisions.

Another benefit I see to this, is us forumites learning about new products/innovations/tricks/what-have-you that we would otherwise never hear about. Still using Guru as the example, I for one had never heard of Guru before joining this forum. Now, I can say that I understand a great deal more about sonic properties, and how hardware/hoops/heads/everything affects drums and their sound. Did I have to see some egregious pictures of stunning drums? Yes. Did I have to listen to some shameless videos with fantastic drum sounds? Yes.

And you know what? It was awesome. Because it helped propel my interests a hell of a lot more.

So sure, talking about Tama, or Gretsch or Pearl doesn't matter much because no one has vested interests those companies. Andy stands to benefit from us seeing his wares, but at the same time, again, so do we.

I mean who knows, say someone comes here, asking for our opinions on product X. We give our feedback, view egregious pictures of stunning drums, and voila! A few years later, this product is now industry standard, and we're all on the forums talking about it again - yet no one stands to make a profit.

So basically what I'm doing is saying that I for one have found these posts incredibly useful and informative. As far as I'm concerned, if the posts aren't deleted or locked due to rules violations, chances are good that nothing is wrong.


EDIT: Took me a while to type this, and it seems Andy beat me to it; he said what I wanted to, albeit more effectively. Cheers!
__________________
"God is dead." - Nietzsche, 1882

"Nietzsche is dead." - God, 1900
  #158  
Old 12-06-2013, 10:50 AM
Magenta's Avatar
Magenta Magenta is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Gwlad Cymru
Posts: 3,208
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
but in light of a growing body of opinion I'm sensing, it's the only rational choice
You certainly aren't reading what I've been reading.

Talk some sense into him, somebody!
__________________
Thinly veiled angel

Ladies & gentlemen, I've suffered for my art. Now it's your turn (Neil Innes)
  #159  
Old 12-06-2013, 11:23 AM
MrInsanePolack's Avatar
MrInsanePolack MrInsanePolack is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Arkansas, USA
Posts: 2,625
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
You certainly aren't reading what I've been reading.

Talk some sense into him, somebody!
At this point, I am not even sure if one of those bad ass caeks you make would change his mind.

I feel as if my favorite tv show has just been cancelled, or like I just got fired. For a short time it was like I was let in on a little secret that only a select few were privy to, and now knowledge of said secret has become incriminating. I am seriously disappointed.
__________________
Grease or The Bird, which is it? Someone please tell me, what is the d@mn word?
  #160  
Old 12-06-2013, 12:39 PM
MaryO's Avatar
MaryO MaryO is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Cincinnati
Posts: 1,894
Default Re: An attempt at a policy change here

Thank you Andy, for your post and explanation. I'm sure most of us, while somewhat disappointed, respect your decisions. Your are a man of class and honor and I look forward to your continued posts and input on this forum even without the Guru drum angle. I will definitely bookmark the Guru drum website page and keep up with developments there.


Happy Drumming to all!

MaryO
__________________
I am deluded enough to think I can bring something to the table - Huey Lewis.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 03:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com