No Rhythm

Okay, I am playing in this band. In the past I've had a lot of timing issues but I have worked really hard and am now decent(On bass now, not great). Well, we got a guitar player with no since of time. How do you work with a guy like this? Now, I don't feel like I can criticize cause I've my own struggles,though the singer said I was the tightest person in the band (I've had issues so long I'm having a tough time accepting that I might actually be becoming proficient), but HOW do you play with those with sea sick rhythms?

Now, we may replace him in the future, but immediately that is not an option, how do you make do?
 
Get a metronome through a speaker at practice. Have the drummer playing to one. Have your drummer play Phil Rudd type licks until he can get the timing down.

Be upfront with him and tell him his time is a problem and that he needs to work with a metronome. Tell him he needs to be serious about his time because it's getting in the way.
 
Yeah, what was suggested below. Also, learning to read music helps a lot, at least learn how the rhythms are written out. That way he can approach music from a more logical perspective, understandable to anyone, with or without musical ability.
I am also surprised YOU can't help him; you don't remember how you figured rhythm out yourself anymore?


Fox.
 
Thanks for the advice.

Fox: Yeah, it has been a struggle but I don't feel confident enough to teach at this point. I took a lot of criticism in the past about my issues, which I felt helpless about for the longest time. I don't want to be the guy doing what people did to me. I'm just curious if I should just make the best of it.
 
Algorithm said:
Have your drummer play Phil Rudd type licks until he can get the timing down.

Rule of thumb: The worse the timing of other musicians, the simpler the drummer needs to play. The minute the drummer does anything even a bit cool, those with bad timing will get confused.

Players like the guitarist have not learned to value the groove. They learned everything else - the fingerings, the chords, the inversions, the scales, the licks, the sounds - without the discipline of doing it all in time.

It's a false shortcut to sound like a "good musician" more quickly but it falls down once they play with musicians who understand groove. If they face reality, they will come to realise that they really can't play about half of what they thought they could play.

The guitarist needs to simplify heaps and stop kidding himself that he can play things that he really can't play ... if ya can't play a lick in time, then ya can't play it!
 
Good advice here.

Good timing takes a lot of practice. I've been playing bass for 32 years. I recorded a lick last night and noticed I sped up one triplet at the same point in the lick everytime.

Grrr. That's how it is. You've got to get to the point where you can relax and play within yourself.

As for guitarist, make sure 1) it's him and not you (i.e. metronome suggestion) and 2) if he's not willing to accept and learn then 3) find another.

Davo
Davo
 
I don't want to be the guy doing what people did to me. I'm just curious if I should just make the best of it.

I couldn't be more grateful of the people who've told me I sucked; they couldn't had been more right. Even today, there's nothing I appreciate more than people bashing me (as long as they are knowledgeable) AND giving proper reasons, it's the best way to learn.
So that's why I try to emphasize how badly people are playing certain thing when I hear it and notice an error, it really is what I'd like to hear. Of course, if they are doing something particularly cool, compliments are also useful, because they might not know that particular thing is nice to the audience either. But really, I think most seasoned musicians appreciate all kind of educated criticism. So in other words, be harsh, it's very likely he'll get it eventually and end up thanking you.
In fact, I'm surprised YOU aren't thankful for what they "did to you".

Fox.
 
Players like the guitarist have not learned to value the groove. They learned everything else - the fingerings, the chords, the inversions, the scales, the licks, the sounds - without the discipline of doing it all in time.

Well said! I call this the "bedroom musician" syndrome, where the person with bad rhythm and/or timing suffers because he/she hasn't played with other musicians enough. By ourselves, we can stop and start over if we make a mistake, or learn only what we understand already, and ignore (often subconsciously) the finer points. It's only in the context of an ensemble that the groove becomes non-negotiable.

The good news, of course, is that rhythm is both teachable and learnable! You need to tell your guitarist this fact, because if he does not believe he CAN learn, he won't. And it's unfortunate that his struggle is with rhythm, because we've all heard players (both good and not-so-good) say that you just have to "feel" it, or that it "comes from within".

Realistically, he'll need private lessons, where his ONLY goal is to develop his understanding and execution of rhythm. Seeing the note values and placement on paper, and counting them aloud, accompanied by a metronome, is typically a huge help, if you can find a teacher who'll do that! Three months of that with a good teacher will turn him around, I'll bet.
 
Record your rehearsals/gigs and make him listen back with you guys as a band. HE has to realize he is out of time. HE has to realize he's coming off like an ameteur. The sooner the better. Make him listen to himself like right now. If he doesn't hear anything off, he will take too long to bring around. Respectfully can him for someone more accomplished.

He has a necessary job to fulfill, a part to do. If he can't do it, you'll get someone who can.
 
Realistically, he'll need private lessons, where his ONLY goal is to develop his understanding and execution of rhythm. Seeing the note values and placement on paper, and counting them aloud, accompanied by a metronome, is typically a huge help, if you can find a teacher who'll do that! Three months of that with a good teacher will turn him around, I'll bet.

This and what larryace said are both very considerable. You've received tons of input from this thread, it should be enough to make a decision.


Fox.
 
we've all heard players (both good and not-so-good) say that you just have to "feel" it, or that it "comes from within".

How true. Our keyboardist has complained about me pandering to a machine when I pull out the metronome at practice to get my head around the bpm before counting in. It doesn't help that he and others in the band like to slip in a quick practice of the note sequences before we start playing and, because they are trying to do it quickly, they play a sped-up version. It really messes with my sensing of the song's tempo to hear it played at the wrong tempo beforehand.

Needless to say, the timing of my band leaves something to be desired ...
 
Record your rehearsals/gigs and make him listen back with you guys as a band. HE has to realize he is out of time. HE has to realize he's coming off like an ameteur. The sooner the better. Make him listen to himself like right now. If he doesn't hear anything off, he will take too long to bring around. Respectfully can him for someone more accomplished.

He has a necessary job to fulfill, a part to do. If he can't do it, you'll get someone who can.

I was in a band where the guitarist was doing the same thing. Only when we started recording some songs for fun did he realise how out of time he was. Speaking from a drummer's perspective, you just have to keep making sure you're in time and hopefully he can follow.
 
Rule of thumb: The worse the timing of other musicians, the simpler the drummer needs to play. The minute the drummer does anything even a bit cool, those with bad timing will get confused.

Polly put it very succinctly, as she always does.

This is very true.

The guys I play with have okay timing, but when the two guitarists play by themselves, especially our singer/guitarist, the timing is all over the place and they will occasionally cut some sections short.
For example, one of our songs has a fairly typical 8th note build up on the snare and floor tom going into the chorus. It comes out to a nice 2 measure build when I play it with them but when our singer/guitarist plays it, it's almost always cut short in the second measure; and always in a different place.

I've tried to get him to count it out but he doesn't understand counting. Weird...
He says he 'just plays by feel'. That doesn't work if you 'feel' like going to the chorus at a different spot all the time. That is why I believe anyone playing music should at least have a basic knowledge of it.
 
The guys I play with have okay timing, but when the two guitarists play by themselves, especially our singer/guitarist, the timing is all over the place and they will occasionally cut some sections short.

Yep, we're the tour guides for lazy musos :)

I've been gradually winding down some of my "cue fills", making them less explicit. In some songs, earlier on if I didn't go DA-DA-DA-DA before a transition someone would miss it, but now most times I can get away with much more subtle cues that sound nicer in the song.

Sometimes it takes a while to get things through ...
 
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