Lack of emphasis on hats in jazz

I can't believe no one has brought him up yet, so I guess I will:

LEON PARKER.

This man was playing on NOTHING BUT A RIDE CYMBAL with KENNY BARRON!!! Just Piano, Bass, CYMBAL!

He calls it a "crutch" and said it didn't offer any reall musical qualities to the music - so he stopped playing it. You can disagree, but you cannot disagree with the fact that that guy can play more "swinging" jazz with just a ride than we all can with a whole drumkit. I saw him in NYC with nothing but that cymbal, and I was blown away.


And Greg - just to be a dink - Joe Chambers said "We are drummers. We are not cymbalists." ; )
 
The Colonel said:
I can't believe no one has brought him up yet, so I guess I will:

LEON PARKER.

This man was playing on NOTHING BUT A RIDE CYMBAL with KENNY BARRON!!! Just Piano, Bass, CYMBAL!

He calls it a "crutch" and said it didn't offer any reall musical qualities to the music - so he stopped playing it. You can disagree, but you cannot disagree with the fact that that guy can play more "swinging" jazz with just a ride than we all can with a whole drumkit. I saw him in NYC with nothing but that cymbal, and I was blown away.
)
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Dig this guy Colonel. Wow, very interesting approach and he rips it up. Who the hell needs a hi-hat? I'm going to have to rethink this...that would save 2 cymbals and another piece of HW to lug around...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uu4asv7xTc
 
Alternatively, check out any Basie record with Sonny Payne, there's always a tune where he plays the ride pattern on the hats and the backbeats on the hihat stand itself--you don't even hear the snare until the choruses. A unique and useful sound.
 
The Colonel said:
I can't believe no one has brought him up yet, so I guess I will:

LEON PARKER.

This man was playing on NOTHING BUT A RIDE CYMBAL with KENNY BARRON!!! Just Piano, Bass, CYMBAL!

He calls it a "crutch" and said it didn't offer any reall musical qualities to the music - so he stopped playing it. You can disagree, but you cannot disagree with the fact that that guy can play more "swinging" jazz with just a ride than we all can with a whole drumkit. I saw him in NYC with nothing but that cymbal, and I was blown away.


And Greg - just to be a dink - Joe Chambers said "We are drummers. We are not cymbalists." ; )
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Colonel- some of us are! And besides., most 'drummers' couldn't spell 'cymbalist'=).

I loved Parker's idea but it was always a bit gimmicky to me and trust me, no drummer I know is as lazy as I am when it comes to carting my gear around.

The fact is, the FACT is that modern Jazz (from Bebop on) comes from the cymbal and the swing is in the upbeats. The more you hammer out 2 and 4, the more you'll sound like you're playing in the 1930's. Elvin initially made us use the hi hat in a musical, non static role first, actually. A properly played ride cymbal implies the 2 and 4 without having to actually play it.

G
 
murphinelli said:
that's because they're taught the way blade123 is taught. once they get the hi-hat going on 2&4...it becomes automatic and you just forget about it. this is the traditional way people are taught...i was taught the same way 20yrs ago. my teacher never went beyond the 2 & 4. probably because he wasn't a jazz drummer. anyways, things have evolved and teachers need to evolve too. but, if they don't play jazz...they'll probably just stick with the 2 & 4...even today. boo. i'm sure it's not easy to find a decent teacher that really knows jazz.
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I'll speak as a educator AND a professional jazz player on the subject. It certainly is a good starting point for teaching young players the fundamentals of syncopation and how it relates to music particularly jazz swing based music. Don't know about the rest of you but if you've ever heard someone playing who didn't know better playing the high hat with great confidence on 1+3 and NOT knowing why it sounds so wrong in swing based jazz music then first teaching someone to put it on 2+4 off the top at the beginning sure helps set them in the direction musically speaking for getting the right "feel" happening. It's a step by step process before you later understanding how to apply more challenging phrasing concepts and coloring regarding the high hat foot and swing based patterns as one example. Good teachers will show you the further developments but you better be off to a good start first before you run the full race.
 
jazzgregg said:
Funny Ken, but they closed the spelling error thread.

G
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They've yet to close the big head thread.

PS You got into with Stan last week. Let me say right now that I am not going to be your punching bag this week.
 
Steamer said:
I'll speak as a educator AND a professional jazz player on the subject. It certainly is a good starting point for teaching young players the fundamentals of syncopation and how it relates to music particularly jazz swing based music. Don't know about the rest of you but if you've ever heard someone playing who didn't know better playing the high hat with great confidence on 1+3 and NOT knowing why it sounds so wrong in swing based jazz music then first teaching someone to put it on 2+4 off the top at the beginning sure helps set them in the direction musically speaking for getting the right "feel" happening. It's a step by step process before you later understanding how to apply more challenging phrasing concepts and coloring regarding the high hat foot and swing based patterns as one example. Good teachers will show you the further developments but you better be off to a good start first before you run the full race.
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Agree. Fundamentals first.
 
Deltadrummer said:
They've yet to close the big head thread.

PS You got into with Stan last week. Let me say right now that I am not going to be your punching bag this week.
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It's terribly unfortunate that you and others have this automatically defensive view of disagreements, arguments and me. Can there not be fundamental disagreements without using terms like that and resorting to such obviously antagonistic language?

What's worse is that I thought you were making a rather clever pun with the Rimbaud/symbolist/cymbalist thing, which is why I referenced the spelling error thread in which cymbal/symbol is apparently a common spelling error. Guess that wasn't as obvious as it seemed.

G
 
blade123 said:
When I first started learning jazz, I was told that the most important thing in jazz is hats on 2 and 4. Ride cymbal doesn't matter, snare doesn't matter, bass doesn't matter, all that matters is that you have those hats on 2+4. If you play only one thing, it should be hats on 2+4. I look at newer players and it seems like hats aren't emphasized at all. Ride is emphasized, but I was always taught that the ride pattern is cool and important, but it IS just a frill and shouldn't be played if it sacrifices the quality of the hats.

Now I'm getting better and more advanced, so I am starting to displace it more, but I'm glad I learned that. Nothing sounds better than a nice solid "chick" on two and four. Nothing sounds worse than a washy unsure hihat splash around two and four.
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While it is important in jazz to have the hi hat on the two and four, it is important to also realize that it is not always best to play it like that. 90-something percent of the time you will want the hats on two and four, but remember, almost nothing in this world is 100%. (except for ppl voting for sadaam, i remember learning in school in like 7th grade that he got 100% of the votes at one point in time, and if ppl didnt vote for him they were excecuted.)
 
Just playing with a praise band recently, I've used the hats almost the same amount of time I use the ride. Why? The venue is all brick...and a lot of time the songs were soft. I put a moon gel on the ride and got away with a lot of work on the ride using 1 moon gel. I used the hats at the beginning of the songs and on softer parts. On the ride I used the hats on a steady 2 and 4 "chick". Doing the rhythms on the hats, I used both tight closures and looser closers to get a different sound and it worked quite well. Also looser closures sometimes I accented the down beat and relaxed on the "&". Good effect.

Regarding clicking the hats on 2 and 4 continuously, especially in jazz, I was taught to do that because that provides a reference guide for other musicians...a solid "chick". But to agree with others in this thread, the characteristics of the song should dictate what to do.... For example, on a soft ballad, I may come in with only using the hats on 2 and 4 or on 1 only for an effect and play several measures that way.

Also the song dynamics as are important...I've heard soooo many musicians complain about drummers who only play 1 dynamic...LOUD. These cats drown out the other musicians in the group and really screw up a song.

Anyways, my 2 cents.
 
Now this, in the middle of a discussion about playing the hats in jazz, is completey uncalled for and ridiculous:
Deltadrummer said:
PS You got into with Stan last week. Let me say right now that I am not going to be your punching bag this week.
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Didn't have anything to contribute, nothing at all, except "Wasn't that Rimbaud?" Hah hah. Knows nothing at all about playing jazz on the drums. Just wanted to kick up some dust. Why?
 
jazzgregg said:
It's terribly unfortunate that you and others have this automatically defensive view of disagreements, arguments and me. Can there not be fundamental disagreements without using terms like that and resorting to such obviously antagonistic language?

What's worse is that I thought you were making a rather clever pun with the Rimbaud/symbolist/cymbalist thing, which is why I referenced the spelling error thread in which cymbal/symbol is apparently a common spelling error. Guess that wasn't as obvious as it seemed.

G
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Uh, Gregg, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of jazz. But if you and Stan get a bad reputation by making a public spectacle of your disagreements, don't be surprised when someone takes something you say out of context. :)
 
rogue_drummer said:
Regarding clicking the hats on 2 and 4 continuously, especially in jazz, I was taught to do that because that provides a reference guide for other musicians...a solid "chick". But to agree with others in this thread, the characteristics of the song should dictate what to do.... For example, on a soft ballad, I may come in with only using the hats on 2 and 4 or on 1 only for an effect and play several measures that way.

Anyways, my 2 cents.
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Good players dont need two and four dictated to them. If you are playing with someone who cant find two and four no one is gonna sound very good because that person is gonna drag everyone down,
 
Deltadrummer said:
Uh, Gregg, I have the utmost respect for your knowledge of jazz. But if you and Stan get a bad reputation by making a public spectacle of your disagreements, don't be surprised when someone takes something you say out of context. :)
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Sir, it is you who is making a spectacle of yourself. It's obvious to everyone that you know nothing of playing jazz and yet you linger at these discussions for some reason known only to yourself.
Nothing you have said here has anything, anything, to do with the topic at issue. Nothing you have said here is even remotely drumming-related.
 
When I first started to attempt jazz beats I found it necessary to click on two and four just as many have said. The natural tendency was to click on 1 and 3 or on 1 2 3 4. I soon realized how wrong that was. As I studied and progressed I found myself playing the hats on different beats than 2 and 4 to enhance what I was playing. I do like the sound of traditional two and four click playing, however. I especially like the 2 and 4 click durning a solo.
 
hi-hats are overrated and useless. i'm going to stop using mine. also i'm going to get rid of my crash cymbal. another useless piece of trash. all you need is a BD, snare, and decent ride (that doubles as a crash) and a throne if you must sit whilst you play. minimalism is the key. forget about 2 & 4 also. a silly concept that should be thrown out. that concept is just holding back progress. my $0.01 :)
 
Deathmetalconga said:
Word. Hats are crucial. Many drummers are lazy and aren't interested in the left foot unless it's involved in double pedals (many, many threads on double pedals, relatively few on left foot).
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Couldnt agree more, some people really neglect how the left foot can let you keep time while also allowing for musicality (samba) - people just want the left foot for speed playing now - and thats not what its about, especially in jazz - its to keep time

I was also stressed the importance of the 2 and 4 on the hi-hat chick for a crisp sound - and if I cant hear it I miss it - it has to out do your ride
 
murphinelli said:
hi-hats are overrated and useless. i'm going to stop using mine. also i'm going to get rid of my crash cymbal. another useless piece of trash. all you need is a BD, snare, and decent ride (that doubles as a crash) and a throne if you must sit whilst you play. minimalism is the key. forget about 2 & 4 also. a silly concept that should be thrown out. that concept is just holding back progress. my $0.01 :)
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Exactly. My teacher once told me I should do a gig without the hi-hats altogether. He told a story about how he showed up to the gig without his hi-hat clutch and was forced to do the gig without his hats. He had his bass drum, snare and ride. He said it really forced him to focus on the ride and he realized that that's where the swing truly came from.
 
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