Drummers on a different level than other musicians

Larry

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
At a rehearsal the other day, we were running through the Neville Brothers "Congo Square". (I'm not sure if they actually wrote this or not, but that's besides the point) I chose to base my part around a Bo Diddley beat, 3 against 2. So I played the rhythm mostly on the HH with an offbeat "backbeat" during the vocal part. During the non vocal parts, I maintained the same general rhythm, but orchestrated it using the drums more instead of mainly the HH. This is when the guitarist and bass player gave me the "look" as in WTF are you doing? So we stopped and I explained to them that the rhythm didn't change, I just orchestrated it differently. I was basically laughed at, they thought it was amusing that I used a term that sounded a little like I knew what I was talking about. I really don't think they had previously heard that term used before by a drummer. I can't help getting the feeling that most other musicians (who don't play the drums) think of us as 2nd class citizens, musically speaking. Sometimes this really galls me (being laughed at while I'm trying to seriously discuss something musical) and I wonder if I should basically act offended so then maybe they will realize that they are putting me down and not allowing me to be "on their level". I've never done that in the past (act offended) because it halts progress, but if I continue to not say anything, then they won't know that they are being offensive to me. Like when someone makes a drummers joke I used to just laugh it off but lately I feel the need to protest the stereotype, in hopes of changing attitudes. I would like to elevate the generally held perception of the drummer as a person who rides the coat tails of the other musicians. Has anyone else felt this "pecking order" mentality?
 
I don't have much interest in playing music with others, but I do on occasion. My last experience involved something similar. The song was by Omasa, or something like that, and I didn't really care for it. The drummer used a slow, quarter note driving beat. I tried the same drumming pattern in 8th notes at the same BPM. The guitar player went nuts, and he couldn't comprehend that what I was doing doesn't have to change what he's doing. He wouldn't even try. Yet, he changed songs to suit himself all the time. I think what grounds us in a song is different from other musicians.

What is odd about this though is when you look at written music for the drums, everything is pretty much resolved around bars, or certain number of bars. For other instruments, their music is often less structured around bar phrasing. A composer can have various instruments weaving in and out of the music at god knows where on the count and in what bars. This probably isn't so true with the various popular musics, but it seems to suggest that non drummers shouldn't be so sensitive to the various nuances of rhythm. We should be!

But then again, as a drummer what should I know? lol
 
donv said:
I don't have much interest in playing music with others, but I do on occasion.
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This is more interesting to me than my question.
Don if you don't mind me asking, if you don't have much interest in playing with others, how is your "music playing time" spent? This just surprises me so much because the whole reason I spend the time I do learning the drumset is so I can play with others. The drumset, more than any other instrument, really depends on the other instruments to be effective (my opinion).
 
Hi Larryace
I have run into this over and over....Over my past 45 years of playing( long durations with say only 5 or 6 working bands)..I have found that I had to prove myself to others. Like they at very surprise that I understand cord progressions and song structure!!!!
Also, the fact I understand rhythm structure (divisions..permations etc) better than most of them...they come around.
They typically realize what I offer and are quite blow away.......Then we can start really developing music.
All of this takes time..soft approach.......others do not understand our instrument.
Some of the best bass players I've worked with are good drummers.
Denis
 
Larry,

Things happen, and priorities change. That's about all it really amounts to. I use to play with others alot and I may desire to do that again someday, but for now it's strictly a relationship between me and the drums.

I don't think it's so unusual. I spent a little time with a guy Friday afternoon who just got home without his legs just above his knees and he wants to play drums. That doesn't say anything about my situation because it's much different. Needless to say, what motivates us isn't the same for all.

As for needing others to be effective. Maybe if you consider yourself a musician, and I don't. I'm a drummer. If I did want to play with others now, I'd look for other drummers or a drum line. That's what I enjoyed.
 
larryace said:
At a rehearsal the other day, we were running through the Neville Brothers "Congo Square". (I'm not sure if they actually wrote this or not, but that's besides the point) I chose to base my part around a Bo Diddley beat, 3 against 2. So I played the rhythm mostly on the HH with an offbeat "backbeat" during the vocal part. During the non vocal parts, I maintained the same general rhythm, but orchestrated it using the drums more instead of mainly the HH. This is when the guitarist and bass player gave me the "look" as in WTF are you doing? So we stopped and I explained to them that the rhythm didn't change, I just orchestrated it differently. I was basically laughed at, they thought it was amusing that I used a term that sounded a little like I knew what I was talking about. I really don't think they had previously heard that term used before by a drummer. I can't help getting the feeling that most other musicians (who don't play the drums) think of us as 2nd class citizens, musically speaking. Sometimes this really galls me (being laughed at while I'm trying to seriously discuss something musical) and I wonder if I should basically act offended so then maybe they will realize that they are putting me down and not allowing me to be "on their level". I've never done that in the past (act offended) because it halts progress, but if I continue to not say anything, then they won't know that they are being offensive to me. Like when someone makes a drummers joke I used to just laugh it off but lately I feel the need to protest the stereotype, in hopes of changing attitudes. I would like to elevate the generally held perception of the drummer as a person who rides the coat tails of the other musicians. Has anyone else felt this "pecking order" mentality?
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Get used to it man, you or I are NOT gonna change that which has been for so long. Unfortunate fact.

Don't expect a guitar player to know where your coming from. No offense to guitarists, but all too many of them are CLUELESS to the concept of drumming and time in general. Guitar players are most interested in what THEY are playing and how YOU will fit in around that without getting in THEIR way. All too many guitarists think TIME is a magazine, and it puzzles them greatly when they end up ahead or behind an entire measure of a song during their solo as it never occurred to them the song was STILL going on!! L0L!!!

Just stand your ground and have REAL ammo when they question or doubt you, you can't be clueless to what YOU are talking about and expect THEM to understand. Know your terminology, time signatures, counts and all the stuff that will PROVE your point.

Even if you're RIGHT having no way to prove or explain it will make your point impossible to defend.
 
donv said:
Larry,

Things happen, and priorities change. That's about all it really amounts to. I use to play with others alot and I may desire to do that again someday, but for now it's strictly a relationship between me and the drums.

I don't think it's so unusual. I spent a little time with a guy Friday afternoon who just got home without his legs just above his knees and he wants to play drums. That doesn't say anything about my situation because it's much different. Needless to say, what motivates us isn't the same for all.

As for needing others to be effective. Maybe if you consider yourself a musician, and I don't. I'm a drummer. If I did want to play with others now, I'd look for other drummers or a drum line. That's what I enjoyed.
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I dont wanna hijack this thread, but it now makes complete sense to me why you worte the responses you did in the feel vs. technique thread.

In response to the OP, it happens. You just have to deal with it. The best thing you can do is learn as much about music in general and try and be as well rounded a "musician" as you can be.
 
I go through this kind of thing a lot! If I don't hit my snare on two and four my band mates are lost! They don't count while they are playing and they never know where one is! If I vary my ride, or change the basic beat in any way, They say that I changed the speed! I play with musical idiots! There is one guitar player that I play with who is a Berklee schooled musician. He always knows where we are in the song, no matter what I or the others do. Syncopation doesn't affect him! It helps him play better! Get used to it! There are a lot of clueless people out there! I speak to my band members about the importance of counting all the time! I purposely throw rhythm curve balls sometimes, Just so that I can watch people who don't know how to count stumble!
 
I think times have changed... we, as drummers, were considered as just "the timekeepers", but, nowadays that has changed, we contribute more to the feel of the music than ever before.

I understand exactly what you mean, and I've been there myself sometimes in the past...

Today I don't have that feeling anymore you know, I do what the song needs and, if I get that "look", just as you did, I explain myself to the band. Usually, in my band, that's enough for them to understand, but if not, we will discuss until we reach something we will all fell good about it.

My suggestion: try to let your bandmates know that you are not just the time keeper, you're more than that, you want to add your touch to the music. But remember, do it in a funny and friendly way, if they don't get it well... you might wanna spend time with musicians that have a better chemistry with you ;)
 
I am fortunate in that, in both my bands, I am considered the best musician in the band(s).
They know, and have heard, my own songs (I have my own home studio, and write and record original music, playing and singing all the parts). So they recognize that I know what I am talking about if I want to re-arrange a song or change up my part, or suggest changes or corrections to guitar parts, etc.

Again, I'm in a fortunate situation, but if your players are somewhat intelligent, they will quickly give you the respect, as a fellow MUSICIAN, once they see that you have more to offer than just keeping a steady beat.
 
larryace said:
At a rehearsal the other day, we were running through the Neville Brothers "Congo Square". (I'm not sure if they actually wrote this or not, but that's besides the point) I chose to base my part around a Bo Diddley beat, 3 against 2. So I played the rhythm mostly on the HH with an offbeat "backbeat" during the vocal part. During the non vocal parts, I maintained the same general rhythm, but orchestrated it using the drums more instead of mainly the HH. This is when the guitarist and bass player gave me the "look" as in WTF are you doing? So we stopped and I explained to them that the rhythm didn't change, I just orchestrated it differently. I was basically laughed at, they thought it was amusing that I used a term that sounded a little like I knew what I was talking about. I really don't think they had previously heard that term used before by a drummer. I can't help getting the feeling that most other musicians (who don't play the drums) think of us as 2nd class citizens, musically speaking. Sometimes this really galls me (being laughed at while I'm trying to seriously discuss something musical) and I wonder if I should basically act offended so then maybe they will realize that they are putting me down and not allowing me to be "on their level". I've never done that in the past (act offended) because it halts progress, but if I continue to not say anything, then they won't know that they are being offensive to me. Like when someone makes a drummers joke I used to just laugh it off but lately I feel the need to protest the stereotype, in hopes of changing attitudes. I would like to elevate the generally held perception of the drummer as a person who rides the coat tails of the other musicians. Has anyone else felt this "pecking order" mentality?
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There are many threads about drummer inferiority attitudes. You are playing with morons who need to insult you to feel better about themselves.
 
I hold a minor degree in music, which sounds like a lot but it really isn't that impressive. Fortunately most people don't know that it's only a 20EC (european credit) programme. So when people doubt me I remind them of my degree. Generally in the bands I play in I am the only one with a degree like that, so people will generally acknowledge me as an experienced drummer you might want to listen to when he speaks. Of course, I am trying not to come across as arrogant.

In a good band, people will know and appreciate a good drummer when they hear one. Once again I do not mean to brag, but the people in my current band (which consists of good musicians but still has to grow as a whole) consider me a good drummer both as a player and as a bandmate. Once you have earned their trust, cooperation will go very smoothly. This goes both ways: trust you bandmates if (and only if) you can. It will come back to you.

But I hear you on guitarists not knowing a thing about time and rhythm. Most of them don't make it past 2 or 3 when counting. Though I have come across some rare beasts when playing in bands; some had absolutely great time.
 
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at the end of the day if the people you are playing with are loosing the groove it doesn't matter if it's your fault our theirs. you have to find a way to make the groove work as a group. It doesn't matter who's fault it is or if your RIGHT or WRONG. It doesn't really matter if your right and the people your playing with can't follow it.

sometimes you just have to give up the fight and give in for the sake of the song. sometimes people in your band are dependent and are leaning on you. I know I lean on bandmates sometimes too. I would like to drop the snare out on a soft verse before a shout chorus but if the singer gets lost with out it then i'll keep put it back in.

If the people you agreed to play in group together can't make it work and you can't bend to what they want then you just have to abandon the song or leave the group.
 
I play guitar and piano in addition to drums, and I think that the drums are the most challenging thing that I have ever done. Drummers can be mindless idiots, but if you look at the cream of the crop drummers (Bruford, Neil Peart, Danny Carey, Carter Beauford, Antonio Sanchez, etc.), you will see that drummers can be amazing musicians. Dave Matthews is quoted as saying that Carter Beauford is "the most amazing musician I've ever met". Dave obviously has met a lot of musicians and he says this of Carter. People in various "projects" that I have been involved with have made jokes, and laughed when I would take a chord sheet, etc. They are also surprised when I know the musical terminology and such. I suggest that all drummers learn to play a melodic instrument in addition to drums to get a feel for the other side of things.
 
andSometimesY said:
I suggest that all drummers learn to play a melodic instrument in addition to drums to get a feel for the other side of things.
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You are absolutely right that it would be a great addition to playing the drums...
...but what bothers me is that people who play a melodic instrument often don't bother to learn rhythmics even on a rudimentary level.
I intend to learn some rudimentary guitar one day. I can do a few tricks but not enough to consider myself a guitarist.

The band leader of one of my previous bands once stated that all musicians should start out on drums or something percussive to get their timing straight. He started out on drums, then moved on to bass, guitar, piano and most of all vocals and is now a very good songwriter and singer / performer.
 
I second (or third) that. Everyone should learn to play the drums. It completely transforms the way you look at music.
 
Yea, on that song, Congo Square, I consider that a drumming song, meaning since the lyrics are about the drummers in Congo Square New Orleans, it is OK to embellish the drum part a little. So in the spirit of that, I felt it was OK to cut it loose a little, (not during the vocal thought) I don't have any songs where I'm free to do that, so I took a little artistic license. Bottom line is I am not cutting loose on that song. They don't like it, even though the rhythm didn't change. Oh well. And it's not like theses guys are morons or anything, everything is cool, just not 100%. I support them when in a drunken state the guitarist decides to play La Grange for 15 minutes (that's a hard beat to maintain for that long, for me anyway). I always support them all the time, and it just sucks that when I want to cut loose, which aint often, that I am pulled back. Good advise here, thanks everyone, but I am up against that 50 foot wall that is the seperation between the guitarists and the drummer. It's all good, I'll probably just keep on doing what I'm doing and not make anything out of it.
 
larryace said:
...but I am up against that 50 foot wall that is the separation between the guitarists and the drummer.
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You mean the 50 kilowatt wall of guitar amps that will "only sound good when you crank it up to 11"?
 
No they aren't the type to kill you with volume. They do want their drummers nice and neat and not messy, neatly contained, respectful, and easy to use. I notice that when I do get a little of the spotlight, a solo perhaps, that they always somehow take some of it back in some way, maybe a comment on the mic, maybe playing something stupid while I'm soloing...They just can't take any spotlight being taken from them. I think it's kind of sad. They are unable to support the guy that supports them all night.
 
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