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  #1  
Old 02-26-2009, 05:53 AM
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Default 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I've heard that Marvin Dalgren died last year, and his company is in some sort of legal situation. I was wondering if anyone knows a place where I can find the 2nd book of his series 4-way coordination. I am in Michigan and so far no one in this area has it. I havn't exhausted all of the stores but I am definitely losing hope. If anyone here has a copy and would like to sell it (I hope this isn't against the drummerworld rules) I am interested. Either way any information would be highly appreciated. Thank you.

Scott
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I have not seen book two - never knew it existed. Have you ever seen a copy in the past?

I do know that there is a book two to Accents on Accents.
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  #3  
Old 02-26-2009, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I have not seen the book but on the last page on book one it reads that it is continued on book two. Also, one of the music stores I go to looked it up on their catalog and is willing to order it(he hasn't that is a long story of why). So it has existed at one time.

If I can't get it do any of you have a suggestion on what book would be good to continue my polyrhythms other then practice practice and practice?
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:09 PM
bjparadiddle bjparadiddle is offline
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I don't know who started that rumor about Mr. Dahlgren. I saw him just last week at a Stanton Moore clinic. I don't know about the second book of 4-way; but he had another great book called "Drum Set Control," which is, I believe, out of print.

Marv told me he's going to vacation in Florida this month.
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  #5  
Old 02-26-2009, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I am glad he is still alive and that I was wrong. The guy where I tried to buy the book told me about the untrue death. Unfortunately it is starting to look like the book doesn't exist. I wonder if it was intended to be made? I don't know, but it is a disappointing if the book was never made. I found it to be very useful. I will check out the other book you suggested. Thanks.
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Originally Posted by RevWrona View Post
I have not seen the book but on the last page on book one it reads that it is continued on book two.
There have been books and videos that mention a part two or three, but then for some reason the product never gets written or released.
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  #7  
Old 02-27-2009, 01:52 AM
bjparadiddle bjparadiddle is offline
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I studied with both Elliott and Marv, back in the 70s. I used to get terrible headaches from practicing "4-Way." But it really opened me up. I heard that Tony Williams studied from that book as well. Elliott would have me working on a page of three different chapters from "4-Way" every week.

Ten years ago, I went to the Dakota Bar, in St. Paul to see Elvin Jones. Marv and Elliott were there also, and Elvin was thrilled to see them.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:27 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

Rev,

I have two copies of Marv's book Drum Set Control. Happy to send you one.

I heard a great story from Peter Donald regarding Tony Williams and "4-Way Coordination" - Miles' band was set to do some gigs in Boston so Tony called his old teacher Alan Dawson to see if he could get a lesson while he was back in Boston; Tony said he wanted to get the "new stuff." Well Alan was going to be on the road during the week Tony was in Boston and couldn't give Tony a lesson. Tony asked Alan who his best student was and if Alan could arrange a lesson with him. Peter was a longtime student of Alan's at that point and Alan suggested Tony meet with him.

Miles was playing a weeklong gig and Peter went to hear the band everynight. One morning that week Peter's phone rings and he hears a voice saying: "Hi, I'm Tony Williams and Alan Dawson suggested I call you for a lesson." Peter's initial reaction was that this must be someone playing a joke on him. It was no joke, Tony insisted and they did get together.

The "new stuff" was Marv's book. Peter showed Tony how Alan had presented the material to him and that was that. Well, not really. Peter said that by the end of Miles' week at the club Tony had assimilated the 4-way concepts and was already exploring it on the bandstand!

John
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Old 02-28-2009, 12:07 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Peter said that by the end of Miles' week at the club Tony had assimilated the 4-way concepts and was already exploring it on the bandstand!
You know, there ought to be a law against that.
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  #10  
Old 02-28-2009, 12:55 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

Hey guys I hope this isn't too off topic but I'm interested in this book (well the first volume anyway). If this is an unsuitable post then I apologise in advance.

I completed Advanced Techniques For The Modern Drummer roughly a year and a half ago. And feel I have got a really good grip on the concepts in that book, and I am now working my way religiously through Alan Dawson's approach to 4-way co-ordination with John Ramsay's book and Syncopation. I feel this approach is really amazing and such a clever, effective and musical way of adapting Syncopation, and I defintely want to pursue the methods in The Drummer's Complete Vocabulary. I just wondered if anyone would still recommend I look into this book, "4-Way Co-ordination" as an addition to the Alan Dawson method, or even instead? I've heard great things about it, but I'm a real fan of what I'm doing at the moment.

Thanks all!

Lloyd.
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  #11  
Old 02-28-2009, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

They're all great books. The Dahlgren book gets your hands and feet integrated to a very high degree. I don't believe any one drum book is the Holy Grail for drummers; take what you can use to play how you want to (that is, after you've learned the basics of reading and rudiments, etc.) John Riley's books are terrific, as well.

I did like Elliott Fine's approach to the book: I'd study one page in the first chapter, which is called Melodic Coordination; one page from the chapter called Harmonic Coordination; one page from the part of the book with the ride cymbal exercises. That approach to the book makes you see how it all goes together, and really gets results fast. I don't envy the work you'll have to do to master it. I certainly never did. But I can still play about half the book, which is more than most.

Pick up Miles Davis' "Four and More" record. And "Nefertitti." Then get the Coltrane records with Elvin on them. Those records'll scramble your brains for a while, as well as provide the necessary inspiration.

It's all in the music.
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  #12  
Old 02-28-2009, 01:49 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Originally Posted by bjparadiddle View Post
They're all great books. The Dahlgren book gets your hands and feet integrated to a very high degree. I don't believe any one drum book is the Holy Grail for drummers; take what you can use to play how you want to (that is, after you've learned the basics of reading and rudiments, etc.) John Riley's books are terrific, as well.

I did like Elliott Fine's approach to the book: I'd study one page in the first chapter, which is called Melodic Coordination; one page from the chapter called Harmonic Coordination; one page from the part of the book with the ride cymbal exercises. That approach to the book makes you see how it all goes together, and really gets results fast. I don't envy the work you'll have to do to master it. I certainly never did. But I can still play about half the book, which is more than most.

Pick up Miles Davis' "Four and More" record. And "Nefertitti." Then get the Coltrane records with Elvin on them. Those records'll scramble your brains for a while, as well as provide the necessary inspiration.

It's all in the music.

Thanks for that dude!

I have all of the Miles stuff with Tony, it's what inspired me to look into Alan Dawson's material in the first place. I have listened to a lot of Elvin, but to be honest, that messes me up even harder than Tony's playing. It's like...ELVIN YOU ARE A MAD MAN.

Yeah maybe I'll look into it after I give Syncopation a bit more of a hammering. Cheers!

Lloyd.
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  #13  
Old 03-01-2009, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Thanks for that dude!

I have all of the Miles stuff with Tony, it's what inspired me to look into Alan Dawson's material in the first place. I have listened to a lot of Elvin, but to be honest, that messes me up even harder than Tony's playing. It's like...ELVIN YOU ARE A MAD MAN.

Yeah maybe I'll look into it after I give Syncopation a bit more of a hammering. Cheers!

Lloyd.
Completely off topic, but I really had to jump in and say that I agree! Elvin Jones messes with my head more than anyone... It just seems like he never stops comping.... Its just like this stream of notes that only becomes more and more dense, and then when you can't imagine it getting any more intense, it just.... Does. Somehow.. Sometimes, with Coltrane, it seems like he's almost soloing behind the soloist. (If that makes sense?)

Funny story regarding this, is that the first time I heard "A Love Supreme," the third track, "Pursuance," confused me, becasue I was wondering why the bass player was playing was playing so staccato, (it was a crappy stereo, and couldn't hear the actual bass player.) and about halfway though the tune I realised that it was actually Elvin's bass drum (which is tuned high, hence my confusion,) and I just about fell off my bed. Just the speed and dexterity of his right foot is ridiculous.
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Old 03-01-2009, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

[quote=John Riley;546215]Rev,

I have two copies of Marv's book Drum Set Control. Happy to send you one.

John,

That would be fantastic, If there is a link to an e-mail address to you I'll send you my address.

Scott
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  #15  
Old 03-01-2009, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I have 3/4 4/3 combination down pretty good. I am keep the swing feel and using my hi-hat while I have been practicing switching my hand and foot back and forth doing the 8th noted and triplets. I am now I throwing in triplet fills while keeping the 8th notes as well. My timing is still a bit off but it is getting better with practice.
I am guessing that I should start doing 16th notes over triplets and get that down but any ideas what I should integrate next into my jazz playing next?

Scott
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  #16  
Old 03-01-2009, 09:44 PM
bjparadiddle bjparadiddle is offline
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

Rev:

Remember to play with records/cds. "Kind of Blue," etc. The book knowledge has to be musically incorporated. Sometimes, you need a break from the books and get into some simple grooves. Then, go back to the technical study. I've seen drummers on the stage who're obviously counting to themselves, playing some exercise, while NOT swinging. I never heard of a band leader firing a drummer for not having enough independence and rudimental savvy. Lack of musicality, swing, time and feel, (okay, and, yeah, playing too loud) are always the reasons for getting fired.
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Old 03-02-2009, 02:25 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

Yes I do agree, I have been throwing in those rudiments. I incorporate singles, doubles, paradiddles and buzz rolls. I seem to lose my timing when I try triples and I can't seem to fit a flam tap paradiddle in there. At least not yet. More practice will be prudent. Now I really figured out 3/4 4/3 time because I had it on paper does anyone know where I could get a copy of more 3/4/5 time etc... I've found people doing it on Youtube which is great watching and or hearing people do it but it doesn't help me break it down. I am a very visual learning and not so great as an audio learner.
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  #18  
Old 03-03-2009, 04:32 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I own a book that might be a viable successor to 4-Way Coordination. It's called "Virtuoso Studies For The Drum Set: Utilizing The Advanced Concept Of 4-Way Independence" by Eliot Fine.

It's old, published in 1979 by Berklee Press, but it's great. He makes a reference to 4-Way Coordination in the beginning, saying that it's a great book; he also makes use of that notation style.

This book is not for the beginner. It has complicated fugues that go from 5/4 to 6/4 to 9/4 measure to measure, and the warmup exercises include 5 over 4 polyrhythms.
It's a spiritual successor.
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Old 03-03-2009, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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I own a book that might be a viable successor to 4-Way Coordination. It's called "Virtuoso Studies For The Drum Set: Utilizing The Advanced Concept Of 4-Way Independence" by Eliot Fine.
That books sounds fantastic. I will get that book today if I can find it.
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:41 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

So far Virtuoso studies for the drum set has been difficult to find. I have tried four stores and none of them carry it. One of the stores I went to is going to try to order it. They said they don't know if they can get an order from Berklee Press but they are going to try. I will find out in a few days if this book is attainable or not.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:55 PM
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Yes I do agree, I have been throwing in those rudiments. I incorporate singles, doubles, paradiddles and buzz rolls. I seem to lose my timing when I try triples and I can't seem to fit a flam tap paradiddle in there. At least not yet. More practice will be prudent. Now I really figured out 3/4 4/3 time because I had it on paper does anyone know where I could get a copy of more 3/4/5 time etc... I've found people doing it on Youtube which is great watching and or hearing people do it but it doesn't help me break it down. I am a very visual learning and not so great as an audio learner.
It is great to practice those technical things. It is really, really great. What is missing for most of us, and I didn't realize this until my 30s, is that we study too much, too superficially. Whatever exercise you go for, to be really useful, has to be practiced so many times that it is virtually part of who you are. I am paraphrasing bjparadiddle here...

All that 5 over 4 stuff, for 99% of us, is....

Useless. First off, if you haven't studied your triplets for 1000 hours (yes, 1000), forget it. You are putting icing on mud. In jazz, triplets are many hundred times more fundamental than anything else.

Secondly, those super complicated figures will throw off most people you will play with, and then they really loose their appeal quickly...if you have to explain what you are doing, you are on very thin ice, musically.....

Now, I know it is fundamentally fun to play extra challenging patterns, and of course, this is supposed to be fun. But don't for a second think you are ready to "move on" to 5 over whatever, because in all likelihood, your time is much better spent on yet another run through of page 4 of 4 Way Coordination......

Like bj says, what bandmates, and bandleaders want to hear, is solid, unshakable time, total reliability, and listening skills

But what about soloing, you say.....first off, soloing is a very minor part of your duties, and not too much emphasis should be put on it. Secondly, your solo should relate to the song, not your Drum God fantasies...so we are back to triplets and simple, effective figures. I swear, if what you are playing even fleetingly enters your mind as a thought, if you are even conscious of exactly what you are playing, you are thinking, not playing. so quit it, and start serving the music.

Casper
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Originally Posted by Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan View Post
It is great to practice those technical things. It is really, really great. What is missing for most of us, and I didn't realize this until my 30s, is that we study too much, too superficially. Whatever exercise you go for, to be really useful, has to be practiced so many times that it is virtually part of who you are. I am paraphrasing bjparadiddle here...

All that 5 over 4 stuff, for 99% of us, is....

Useless. First off, if you haven't studied your triplets for 1000 hours (yes, 1000), forget it. You are putting icing on mud. In jazz, triplets are many hundred times more fundamental than anything else.

Secondly, those super complicated figures will throw off most people you will play with, and then they really loose their appeal quickly...if you have to explain what you are doing, you are on very thin ice, musically.....

Now, I know it is fundamentally fun to play extra challenging patterns, and of course, this is supposed to be fun. But don't for a second think you are ready to "move on" to 5 over whatever, because in all likelihood, your time is much better spent on yet another run through of page 4 of 4 Way Coordination......

Like bj says, what bandmates, and bandleaders want to hear, is solid, unshakable time, total reliability, and listening skills

But what about soloing, you say.....first off, soloing is a very minor part of your duties, and not too much emphasis should be put on it. Secondly, your solo should relate to the song, not your Drum God fantasies...so we are back to triplets and simple, effective figures. I swear, if what you are playing even fleetingly enters your mind as a thought, if you are even conscious of exactly what you are playing, you are thinking, not playing. so quit it, and start serving the music.

Casper
Bravo Casper!
You summed up a lot of very importante things.
When I was at the very begging of my drumming journey(btw. I'm still at the begging :) ), I thought that many of so-called intellectual or jaw dropping solos contain advanced polyrythms. However when I started to transcribe those, turns out that they don't. Often it was nothing more than ''simple'' triplets, 3over2 or maybe 4over3. Complex things aren't necessarily bad, but if they're an end in itself, than they might catch listeners attention in the way you didn't want.
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  #23  
Old 03-05-2009, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Originally Posted by Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan View Post
It is great to practice those technical things. It is really, really great. What is missing for most of us, and I didn't realize this until my 30s, is that we study too much, too superficially. Whatever exercise you go for, to be really useful, has to be practiced so many times that it is virtually part of who you are. I am paraphrasing bjparadiddle here...

All that 5 over 4 stuff, for 99% of us, is....

Useless. First off, if you haven't studied your triplets for 1000 hours (yes, 1000), forget it. You are putting icing on mud. In jazz, triplets are many hundred times more fundamental than anything else.

Secondly, those super complicated figures will throw off most people you will play with, and then they really loose their appeal quickly...if you have to explain what you are doing, you are on very thin ice, musically.....

Now, I know it is fundamentally fun to play extra challenging patterns, and of course, this is supposed to be fun. But don't for a second think you are ready to "move on" to 5 over whatever, because in all likelihood, your time is much better spent on yet another run through of page 4 of 4 Way Coordination......

Like bj says, what bandmates, and bandleaders want to hear, is solid, unshakable time, total reliability, and listening skills

But what about soloing, you say.....first off, soloing is a very minor part of your duties, and not too much emphasis should be put on it. Secondly, your solo should relate to the song, not your Drum God fantasies...so we are back to triplets and simple, effective figures. I swear, if what you are playing even fleetingly enters your mind as a thought, if you are even conscious of exactly what you are playing, you are thinking, not playing. so quit it, and start serving the music.

Casper
I do agree that keeping a solid beat and keeping it all tight is very important. I also agree that keeping the triplets going is very good solid way keeping the beat interesting. Except you make it sounds like I am trying to do some monstrous polyrhythmic beat and fill while playing Autumn Leaves. I would like to excel in doing polyrhythms to increase my drumming ability I think it would make me a better drummer and give me a fun interesting challenge. Of course I havn't counted how many hours of triplets I have done but rest assured I can serve the music just fine.
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:59 PM
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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I do agree that keeping a solid beat and keeping it all tight is very important. I also agree that keeping the triplets going is very good solid way keeping the beat interesting. Except you make it sounds like I am trying to do some monstrous polyrhythmic beat and fill while playing Autumn Leaves. I would like to excel in doing polyrhythms to increase my drumming ability I think it would make me a better drummer and give me a fun interesting challenge. Of course I havn't counted how many hours of triplets I have done but rest assured I can serve the music just fine.
Rev, I'm sorry if it came out like a personal criticism, it wasn't, as I really don't know you at all! I reacted to a turn in the conversation away from what 4WC represents for me: endless basics, in the best possible way. I am not trying to take away from the merit or interest of doing polyrhythms, not at all!
Casper
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Old 03-06-2009, 03:59 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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Rev, I'm sorry if it came out like a personal criticism, it wasn't, as I really don't know you at all! I reacted to a turn in the conversation away from what 4WC represents for me: endless basics, in the best possible way. I am not trying to take away from the merit or interest of doing polyrhythms, not at all!
Casper


Its all good. no harm no foul.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-2009, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

The Dahlgren/Fine book is an advanced course on independence. I believe the best basic book on playing inter/independence for swinging jazz is Ed Soph's "Musical Time for the Jazz Drummer" (I hope I got title right). The rhythms are simple in the beginning; but don't let that dissuade you. The book offers up the great cymbal rhythms used by jazz drummers like Tony Williams, Kenny Clark, Eric Gravatt, Jimmy Cobb, and Louis Hayes. When you take the later chapter rhythms uptempo, you'll sound as hip as you please. The book is all just 4/4, swinging. But the book actually TEACHES swinging. I use "Musical Time" with my students and get great results. I've even emailed Ed, asking him to write a book that extends the concept.
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Old 03-06-2009, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

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The Dahlgren/Fine book is an advanced course on independence. I believe the best basic book on playing inter/independence for swinging jazz is Ed Soph's "Musical Time for the Jazz Drummer" (I hope I got title right). The rhythms are simple in the beginning; but don't let that dissuade you. The book offers up the great cymbal rhythms used by jazz drummers like Tony Williams, Kenny Clark, Eric Gravatt, Jimmy Cobb, and Louis Hayes. When you take the later chapter rhythms uptempo, you'll sound as hip as you please. The book is all just 4/4, swinging. But the book actually TEACHES swinging. I use "Musical Time" with my students and get great results. I've even emailed Ed, asking him to write a book that extends the concept.
I will look up the complete name for this book. I can't get a copy of Virtuoso Studies for the drum set. I have exhausted my resources trying to find it. My thread of hope lays with the classifieds. I doubt that will turn up any results. Even if you got the the title in the ball park I should be able to find it due to the author.
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  #28  
Old 03-27-2009, 05:44 AM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

The book is still unavailable but now I know that Eliot Fine did not do it. As far as I can tell it was William Norine Jr.
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  #29  
Old 04-28-2009, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

I have recieved 4-Way Coordination and I have a specific question regarding the Harmonic Coordination chapter (I know this is a bit off-topic in this particular thread but I didn't feel it was necessary to start a new one).

I find how to practice the exercises very confusing (in all chapters, if I'm honest). At the start of the Two-Part Harmonic Coordination chapter, we are given a double stave. The first four quavers are labelled 'A' and the second four quavers are labelled 'C', whereas on the bottom stave, the first four quavers are labelled 'B' and the last four quavers in the bar are labelled 'D'. Like this:

...A.......C
- - - -- -- - - -

...B.......D
- - - -- -- - - -

The impression I get from this is that we are supposed to read them vertically...? Why are they labelled vertically?

I'm so confused...
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:23 AM
deltadrummer1 deltadrummer1 is offline
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Default Re: 4-way coordination by Dahlgren BOOK TWO

Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkyJazzer View Post
I have recieved 4-Way Coordination and I have a specific question regarding the Harmonic Coordination chapter (I know this is a bit off-topic in this particular thread but I didn't feel it was necessary to start a new one).

I find how to practice the exercises very confusing (in all chapters, if I'm honest). At the start of the Two-Part Harmonic Coordination chapter, we are given a double stave. The first four quavers are labelled 'A' and the second four quavers are labelled 'C', whereas on the bottom stave, the first four quavers are labelled 'B' and the last four quavers in the bar are labelled 'D'. Like this:

...A.......C
- - - -- -- - - -

...B.......D
- - - -- -- - - -

The impression I get from this is that we are supposed to read them vertically...? Why are they labelled vertically?

I'm so confused...
Read it up and down as well as side to side. Make up your own exercises.
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