DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 08-05-2012, 04:32 AM
lindsayannemusic lindsayannemusic is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 200
Default Wanted on these Drum Recordings?

I really really appreciate any insight, feedback, and advice.



Thanks so much.

Last edited by lindsayannemusic; 08-18-2012 at 06:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-05-2012, 04:59 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 13,870
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Hi Lindsay,

I'm not going to be as harsh as you'd like (maybe you don't), but I think your playing is coming along fine. I operate under the impression that we can all improve, so it doesn't stop even after you finish any schooling you're planning on anyway.

Re: the afro-cuban stuff - it would be interesting to hear what you do without any accompaniment - because often times on a gig, you'll be the only percussion player in the band, unless every latin gig you do they intend on having an entire section. And if you ask me, not every band leader wants to dole out money for too many players on a bandstand ;)
Before I got to college I went through some simple latin rhythms and learned them inside and out and wouldn't you know I still use that stuff today because I've found myself the only percussionist on the gig. I'd like to hear you playing these grooves unaccompanied to hear your time, and how it feels. You can be nailing the notes, but if it doesn't feel good, nobody is going to care. I know I won't. Time and feel are tantamount to being an in-demand person people want to pay. And in the end, that's the deal right? We all want to make a living playing drums.

I know you're talking about going to college, so I'm assuming your piano chops are in order as well? You have to pass piano proficiency too (or at least I did, and one year I spent my time just playing piano) and you will be taking theory, harmony and ear training. I started studying piano in high school because I knew if I waited until college I wouldn't be able to keep up with the algebra involved. They may suggest you learn to play all percussion instruments as well - because it's rare that you just get drumset calls (if you get any calls at all). Just look at Harvey Mason, Joe Porcaro, Larry Bunker, and John Guerin - those guys do ALL of the studio work in L.A., and they ALL play everything. If you're talking about that kind of career, then that's who you need to emulate. And they can all sight-read everything on the spot. It's scary.

I'm not sure what a performance degree in jazz and contemporary music actually means. If you're not learning how to do all things percussionist, and then competing with all the other percussionists out there trying to make a living doing what they love too, then are you sure the degree is the right one? If you just want to be a good drumset player and get gigs and hopefully land a big gig (I work with people who've done just that), I would say the degree is unnecessary. Save your money and go take lessons with a pro (come out to L.A. and call Joe Porcaro for some lessons, or Ed Shaugnessy) - that sounds like money better spent. If the fall back for having your chosen degree is to become a teacher, than definitely go to school. Remember, when Tony Williams wanted to learn about composition? He didn't attend college, he hired the Composition professor from San Francisco State for lessons. If you narrow down what you want exactly from music, that will point you in the direction for the proper path to take. What do you think? Can you re-phrase what you want?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-05-2012, 05:34 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,109
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Great, you know a bunch of stuff, and have some chops together-- it looks like you're in a good position for beginning your college education. You're basically exactly where you should be, so I don't really have any criticism to offer. Probably your playing in the videos sounds like you haven't done a lot of playing with people, or gone very deep with your listening, so I would be looking to do a lot more of those things in the next few years-- that's where your biggest opportunities for growth are.

My only other advice is to not go tens of thousands of dollars into debt getting your education. Look for a state school with a solid percussion program, and consider the jazz program to be a bonus-- in my neck of the woods that would be schools like San Jose State, U. of Oregon, or U. of Washington.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-05-2012, 06:45 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Lindsay, I'm not qualified to comment - you're very skilled. In terms of a promo video I think better quality sound recording and more textured lighting would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Before I got to college I went through some simple latin rhythms and learned them inside and out and wouldn't you know I still use that stuff today because I've found myself the only percussionist on the gig.
Which beats in particular did you find most useful, Bo?
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-05-2012, 07:36 AM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 13,870
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post



Which beats in particular did you find most useful, Bo?
Not to derail the thread, but the Cha-Cha, Bossa Nova, and the Samba. The Mambo proved to be more disjointed for the dancers and all the stuff in 6/8 you'll never use on a wedding gig ;)

But they're all important and it's good to know them by name in case you're playing in a latin dance class so you can give them what they want. But really, any variation of the three I mentioned will do.

I should put up a "beats you absolutely need to know for a gig" video, that'd be funny. They're like rudiments you should know ;)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-05-2012, 07:39 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Thanks Bo, I'll continue by PM.
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-05-2012, 10:47 AM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 6,227
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I'm not sure what a performance degree in jazz and contemporary music actually means. If you're not learning how to do all things percussionist, and then competing with all the other percussionists out there trying to make a living doing what they love too, then are you sure the degree is the right one? If you just want to be a good drumset player and get gigs and hopefully land a big gig (I work with people who've done just that), I would say the degree is unnecessary. Save your money and go take lessons with a pro (come out to L.A. and call Joe Porcaro for some lessons, or Ed Shaugnessy) - that sounds like money better spent. If the fall back for having your chosen degree is to become a teacher, than definitely go to school. Remember, when Tony Williams wanted to learn about composition? He didn't attend college, he hired the Composition professor from San Francisco State for lessons. If you narrow down what you want exactly from music, that will point you in the direction for the proper path to take. What do you think? Can you re-phrase what you want?
I can't speak for Lindsay of course, but Bo this view on taking lessons upon specifics that you want to learn rather than attending some course with a degree would be my approach if I could starts all over again, this IMO is brilliant advice and would help anybody to reach exactly what they want to do as a drummer and as a musician.
__________________
I'm Swissman
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-05-2012, 12:38 PM
Talismanis Talismanis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 180
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Don't get too caught up in doing stick tricks for the sake of doing stick tricks. I know there are many different opinions on this, but unless you can get them REAAALLY GOOD it's always better to focus on playing than the tricks (yours are good, and even more time I'm sure you can get amazing at them, but what I saw in the video did just seem like spinning for the sake of spinning to me). I can't do them myself haha. That's my one "harsh" criticism.

Otherwise, yeah, you're on the right track it seems. Nothing is really wrong with your playing; you sound like an passionate, experienced student who is on the path to being really really good if you ask me. You're not there yet, but you will be if you keep it up, if you know what I mean - not that you're not good now of course.

Keep it up! :)

I don't know how old you are or how long you've been playing but I'm guessing you're about 17/18, been playing for maybe 9 years or so? I might be completely wrong about that, but you sound like you're in the same boat as me atm. If I can give you any advice it'd be to work on your basics all the time, and if you want to study jazz then by all means go and get the degree, but the main thing would be to study jazz yourself, in your own spare time, because you find it fun and interesting as a genuine hobby. I can tell from all your posts on this forum that you're passionate and genuinely enjoy playing - and it sounds cliché but that really is all that matters as long as you still work hard and progress every now and then. Enjoy the journey, but work hard every now and then. For maybe a year or two I was having loads of fun on drums but I was playing.. the same stuff. I had so much fun, but I wasn't learning. Careful not to fall into that trap!

Keep playing, you're good! :)
__________________
Joining the Army as a musician. Yay!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-05-2012, 06:32 PM
davidr's Avatar
davidr davidr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cambridge, UK
Posts: 187
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I should put up a "beats you absolutely need to know for a gig" video, that'd be funny. They're like rudiments you should know ;)
I would actually find that very useful (especially the basic latin beats that I should know). Maybe not so much a video as a post or blog entry. I'm sure others would also appreciate it...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-05-2012, 06:32 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 4,109
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
I'm not sure what a performance degree in jazz and contemporary music actually means. If you're not learning how to do all things percussionist, and then competing with all the other percussionists out there trying to make a living doing what they love too, then are you sure the degree is the right one? If you just want to be a good drumset player and get gigs and hopefully land a big gig (I work with people who've done just that), I would say the degree is unnecessary. Save your money and go take lessons with a pro (come out to L.A. and call Joe Porcaro for some lessons, or Ed Shaugnessy) - that sounds like money better spent. If the fall back for having your chosen degree is to become a teacher, than definitely go to school.
The old thing of doing all of your learning in the field is kind of dead now-- there barely is a field-- very nearly all of the best players I know between the ages of ~21-50 went to school.

The degree is really the least of it. It's more about meeting, making friends with, and being around other serious students, and about learning a base of knowledge shared by all of the other good players, as well as getting a variety of rehearsal and performance experience. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it is, and you don't get any of it by taking private lessons alone.

Quote:
Remember, when Tony Williams wanted to learn about composition? He didn't attend college, he hired the Composition professor from San Francisco State for lessons.
That's a slightly different case. Tony was already a world-class, world-famous musician when he did that. Lindsay appears to be a classic unformed freshman-level drummer-- I think she would benefit a lot from going through a program.
__________________
Visit Cruise Ship Drummer! - a drumming blog
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-05-2012, 06:44 PM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 13,870
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
I can't speak for Lindsay of course, but Bo this view on taking lessons upon specifics that you want to learn rather than attending some course with a degree would be my approach if I could starts all over again, this IMO is brilliant advice and would help anybody to reach exactly what they want to do as a drummer and as a musician.
Thanks, it was just a realization I had whilst attending college, and it sorta gets me in trouble with people who live life by the academic mantra. I think college is great, especially for things that are directly related to how you'd earn a living, like being a lawyer, or a doctor, or a teacher, but musician-ing? If you are going to teach music, which to me is a separate discipline from being a performing musician, that's just teaching anyway. When I looked at the money being spent on music degrees as opposed to the amount of money you make back after you have that degree, it just pissed me off.

At least as a lawyer, or a doctor, or whatever, there's at least some chance of doing what you went to school for (and believe me, they're not having an easy time of right now either. I heard at the beginning of this summer that the law schools graduated thousands of lawyers, but there were no jobs for them to go into). But if you have a bachelor's degree in sociology, or music performance, or clinical psychology....well, sociology and psychology is a doctoring degree, but you must go well beyond the bachelor's to qualify (think Ph.D) you're still outta luck on that job front.

Just think if you took that $50,000.00 per year ($200,000.00 total) you were going to spend on going to school as a musician and instead spent it on lessons with pros, and hanging out trying to network with real players - you'd probably be much better off playing-wise (and would have spent alot less). But instead I see alot of people go to music school, come out so racked-up with debt, that their only choice is to stay a little longer and get a teaching credential so they can hopefully get a teaching job to pay off the debt. All the while, this just perpetuates the cycle of getting kids to buy into going to college for music performance, ending up being teachers, influencing other kids to continue into music school, and they in turn become teachers, etcs.,...

How angry would you be if you went to McDonalds, bought a Big Mac meal, and then threw it away? That's how I feel about the prices for higher education. If I pay for it, I want it to do something for me. It needs to make me money, or keep me from starving. If it doesn't guarantee I'll at least live at poverty level (which I won't accept now) I'll not pursue it. It doesn't make smart sense.

Like I said, my view isn't popular, so understand I'm not trying to piss anybody off about it, that's just how it is because that's what I've seen happen over and over. Yes, there are those that really excel and get what they want, but be reasonable and look at the odds of it happening to you. Are you really the next Evelyn Glennie? Or the next Anthony Cirone? Or Chris Lamb?

I, of course, am none of those people. However, I'm not bitter about it because I didn't complete music school to have the piece of paper saying that I should be. I discovered what I really want to do, which was just to play and be entertaining (not just musically), and I went out and hung out with like-minded people to see how well I would do, and I think I'm doing OK. But I'm not $200,000 in debt for it, either.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-05-2012, 07:14 PM
Otto Otto is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,585
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Love the request!!

If you keep that attitude you will surpass anyone harboring defensive tendancies!

Thats a skill set that will take you far...and I have yet to listen to the materials presented!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-05-2012, 07:50 PM
bigd bigd is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 522
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

I'm sorry but I don't think asking on a discussion board such as this will help you at all.

Have you gone to the schools you'd like to apply to and taken a lesson with the professor there? If not, I'd do that and ask if they think you will be competative for a spot in the program.

What does your private teacher say about your skill level? Does the teacher have a record of producing students that are competative for such programs?

My son is a senior this coming fall also and we have already started the process of taking lessons with the professors at the schools he wants to attend.

As for a college education, I agree with Todd Bishop. College helps you come into contact with people who will help in the future. The musical directors of so many different organizations come from an education background. Bo I'm sure the director of musicians at Disney making that fine salary is from an institute of higher learning not just a musician off the street. I know that Disney Florida hires percussionists from the local university down there.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-05-2012, 08:03 PM
Otto Otto is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,585
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Its hard to give critical thought ...I always fear driving someone away from playing....have seen it happen far to frequently.

Here goes...

I am commenting from a perspective of "this was intended as a performance...not an exercise/screwing around with some thoughts".

Think about each phrase of what you are playing and what you are trying to accomplish...getting the overall musical quality to change?...move the piece to a different tempo?..express a theme to be used again?..

A good micro example is to to watch your ghost note section on the "song playalong"(1:10 to 1:16). How were you improving the overall song with the ghost note pattern you were using?

Chop development is great...but always look for how the passage relates to the rest of what you are playing.

I had a hard time finding the subpulse of the playing especially in the open sections...but this tends to be my take on jazz oriented players...it always feels noodly to me...so take that with a grain of salt geared to your selection of style. I would have liked to hear more establishment of time...and articulation of bass drum...maybe some more authoratative strokes to go with the light work.(attention to dynamics within and between phrases). See what you can do to compose something that is interesting but uses minimal actual strokes...a great exercise if you find yourself always trying to reach into the 'busy' end for something interesting.

Spending some daily dedicated time cleaning up the doubles and singles would be well spent...and consider running a metronome at all times while recording...and listen back and work on corrections...

Lastly, think about the sound you are creating with each stroke...is it the tambre you want to create at that moment? Notice how each stoke sounds different based on angle of the stick, how hard your throw the stick, how much pressure you apply when the stick hits the head/cymbal...etc...

Should you not get into a program of your choosing, get specific suggestions from the staff that did the interviewing and follow up on their ideas...even if you have to take a year or 2 of private lessons to get to the point of being able to be admitted, follow through!

You should be proud of your playing!...hope you keep us informed!

Last edited by Otto; 08-05-2012 at 08:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-05-2012, 10:13 PM
Bo Eder's Avatar
Bo Eder Bo Eder is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Southern California
Posts: 13,870
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Bo I'm sure the director of musicians at Disney making that fine salary is from an institute of higher learning not just a musician off the street. I know that Disney Florida hires percussionists from the local university down there.
Yeah, me too. I made a fine salary as a Disney musician too (and doing a bit better in my new incarnation - handling two positions with two unions - with the company). I don't question the importance of the networking that goes on in higher education. My concern is basically with the odds. Look at a local-to-Disneyland school like USC: count the number of percussionists studying there fighting for 'network time', then what about the other big schools in the area like UCLA, CSU Northridge, and CSU Long Beach, and the myriad other schools nearby - and all these people are fighting for how many spots at Disneyland? There are no full-time spots open at Disneyland. Its a big deal when one of them decides to retire - the Disneyland band itself is like The Tonight Show Orchestra when it was under Johnny Carson - the phrase "It's a good gig if you can get it" comes to mind.

My apologies to Lindsay - I appear to be going off the deep end and sound very much like I'm down on music education. I'm really not. People can do whatever they want to do. I just have a problem with college institutions selling you a degree and not really helping you get a gig when you're done. If I paid $200,000 for my college education, like the doctor or lawyer, I'd expect to be doing exactly what I went to school for. A former Disneyland Band director (who is a clinician and guest conductor now) joked with me once on this what-if scenario: What if all the music performance graduates filed a class-action lawsuit to get their money back because none of them are working in their chosen degree-field? We had a laugh about it and it sounds totally jaded but its true, and that was the scary thing.

My hope is just to have young people go into higher music education with eyes more opened. Consider what you really want, and have a plan in place to make it pay for itself. Successful business do that. I can't be the only one whose parents said, "If you love to do something, find a way to make a living off of it". "Networking", seems like such a cliched term. And too many people think it's just gonna happen by being in the right place. Why don't we just call it "gambling"?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-06-2012, 02:33 PM
bigd bigd is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 522
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Bo,
I totally agree with you about the performance degree. I think kids should seriously consider an ed degree and leave their options open. You can perform with an ed degree but you can't teach with a performance degree.

And again, Lindsay has started a post, linked her videos and not responded to anything said by anyone.

Bid D
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-06-2012, 04:06 PM
Mad About Drums's Avatar
Mad About Drums Mad About Drums is offline
Pollyanna's Agent
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Shropshire, UK
Posts: 6,227
Default Re: HARSH Constructive Criticism wanted on these Drum Recordings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Like I said, my view isn't popular, so understand I'm not trying to piss anybody off about it, that's just how it is because that's what I've seen happen over and over. Yes, there are those that really excel and get what they want, but be reasonable and look at the odds of it happening to you. Are you really the next Evelyn Glennie? Or the next Anthony Cirone? Or Chris Lamb?
Your view is a reality check, yes some very talented musicians can grab everything with deconcerting ease, and some make it professionally as a result, but for the most part, many of these musicians will not make as a profession, and it will remain a hobby, that's a lot of time and money spent. There's absolutely no guarantee whatsover that having whatever degrees in music makes them become professional musicians, if it was, everybody would do it, unfortunately it's not the case, I have some drummer friends who spent years studying, attending the conservatory of music, gone to the State at Bekerlee or Los Angeles, they took lessons with the greats, some of them don't even play the drums anymore, sad but true, and I can tell you, some were monsters, it's a real tough world out there, and it takes much more than degrees in music to make it in the music or teaching business.

But I'm not putting down any musical institutions, it's a great feature to learn anything and everything about music, but it's not a ticket to be or become a professional musician.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
And again, Lindsay has started a post, linked her videos and not responded to anything said by anyone.
I agree... kind of annoying by now, I hope she deal with this better in real life/music, otherwise people will loose interest in her very quickly, which is a shame, she's certainely got something and generally post interesting threads.
__________________
I'm Swissman
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com