What's your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Bill, I think I've seen you in some videos acually using trad grip, at least briefly. What about the feel trad grip provides (to you)? Isn't feel an important element in playing an instrument? Trad grip feels awkward at first but after a while starts to feel really good.

Yes, I play traditional too. I'm not a totally maxed out pro with it, but I play it well enough to fake people out & teach it! (I've had tons of trad grip students over the years.) I haven't really practiced it since 1991 so I can't play trad as well as matched.

I have fun playing trad on a tilted drum and for no good reason always play brushes with traditional grip. Actually, here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlcvBV5zLw

I don't dissuede anybody from playing trad, but I find that the ergonomics all point to matched as advantageous unless you're on a tilted drum. Trad can put you in a certain mood to play a certain way and can become a hype, so if you dig it, have at it! (And no I don't want this to turn into another trad -vs- matched discussion.)
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

.... Kind of like double pedals - lots of work and relatively little application....


I've spent a lot of years developing each hand's and foot's respective roles. Got a double pedal not too long ago, and it just didn't sit right with me, even though I tried to give it a fair chance.
Guess I'm just old fashioned when it comes to drumming.

Left foot's for hi-hat, right foot's for bass. Same with hands - they each have a specific function that's been developed over the years. I don't consider them unequal because they play different roles. They're complimentary.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

-> teres minor
[*teacher mode off*]

@ rdb
I've had Bill Bachman's Remote Speedy Hat for just a couple weeks now but after a few days I've so much gotten used to it - I'm taking it 100% granted now to position the hihat cymbal wherever I want, with the respective pedal being placed wherever I find comfy for me. I think whoever experiments with a remote/'flexible' hihat system might feel a strong urge to never use 'standard' hihats again.

The other typical point with open handed is... If you start learning this early enough you won't have to struggle with relearning motions like many drummers do.


I think I'd probably like one of those. I use electronic pads sometimes where you can assign any sound to any pad, and I always have the hats on the lower right pad. Most of the stock kits are assigned this way too.

I still play the hat pads with my right hand, but it's no longer crossed over my left. In most cases though, it still feels more like a bit of a novelty, because it's not that much easier than how I normally play.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Just posted some pictures of my 12:00 hat setup here; http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1035257&postcount=1 . It really has made a world of difference to me. Thanks again, Bill!

Nice, it looks very much playable.

Advice - get rid of double pedals and get another bass and good single pedals, and that change in your setup will push you further, much. More fluidness, it makes a world when both beaters hits in a middle on a drum.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Just posted some pictures of my 12:00 hat setup here; http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1035257&postcount=1 . It really has made a world of difference to me. Thanks again, Bill!

If you get another bass and single pedals, tuning of basses is very important, so you could get balanced feeling in legs and pedals. I think this is one of greatest videos of bassdrum tuning, it really helped me to get something stable for that work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga8Q12mKYxI&list=FLYeEJxebaPh2pVIb1KCQLQw&index=1&feature=plpp_video
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

My opinion on open-handed drumming? IT'S CHEATING!!!!

Just kidding! Whatever it takes for one to produce music comfortably and without getting any physical issues is great. Drumming has more to it than playing positions.

/Oskar
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Yes, I play traditional too. I'm not a totally maxed out pro with it, but I play it well enough to fake people out & teach it! (I've had tons of trad grip students over the years.) I haven't really practiced it since 1991 so I can't play trad as well as matched.

I have fun playing trad on a tilted drum and for no good reason always play brushes with traditional grip. Actually, here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlcvBV5zLw

I don't dissuede anybody from playing trad, but I find that the ergonomics all point to matched as advantageous unless you're on a tilted drum. Trad can put you in a certain mood to play a certain way and can become a hype, so if you dig it, have at it! (And no I don't want this to turn into another trad -vs- matched discussion.)

track sounds great Bill

nice work
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

If you think about ergonomic keyboards and were to draw a straight line from your forearms while using one, the lines would cross not far in front of you.

So I guess what I'm saying is, to me it seems most logical to play regular or with the centered high hat and no particular lead hand.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Well IMHO whatever works for a drummer to be able to play in a musical way is fine. I can share my own experience as I've been playing open-handed for about 4 years now.

I ended up leading with my left hand because I had almost no time to practice and I really wanted to develop my weak hand, so I started playing the easy sections of songs that were mostly rock with no ghost notes involved.

Most of the things that I read on the thread are definitely true, I had to learn what I already knew when crossing my arms, I could have spent that time learning something else, but I don't regret it at all. I feel it's more natural for me to play this way having played "normal" for about 7 years.

I still need to develop a lot more, grooves that involve ghost notes on the snare+open/close hi-hat in inconstant beats, but my goal is lead with left just as good as I do with the right.

So in my case I started to play like this to develop my left hand but discovered it eventually felt more comfortable for me. My ride is still on the right though, and I don't see that playing crossed handed is wrong, it's good that both hands are not in perfect symmetry too.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

My ride is still on the right though, and I don't see that playing crossed handed is wrong, it's good that both hands are not in perfect symmetry too.

My ideology is to set cymbals so, that I could reach them with both hands. So I could play them with both hands, cross-overed if necessary.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Well IMHO whatever works for a drummer to be able to play in a musical way is fine. I can share my own experience as I've been playing open-handed for about 4 years now.

I ended up leading with my left hand because I had almost no time to practice and I really wanted to develop my weak hand, so I started playing the easy sections of songs that were mostly rock with no ghost notes involved.

Most of the things that I read on the thread are definitely true, I had to learn what I already knew when crossing my arms, I could have spent that time learning something else, but I don't regret it at all. I feel it's more natural for me to play this way having played "normal" for about 7 years.

I still need to develop a lot more, grooves that involve ghost notes on the snare+open/close hi-hat in inconstant beats, but my goal is lead with left just as good as I do with the right.

So in my case I started to play like this to develop my left hand but discovered it eventually felt more comfortable for me. My ride is still on the right though, and I don't see that playing crossed handed is wrong, it's good that both hands are not in perfect symmetry too.

Have you ever thought about putting your ride on your left and playing ride and hats with the same hand? There are huge advantages to playing the ride and hats with the same hand.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

Have you ever thought about putting your ride on your left and playing ride and hats with the same hand? There are huge advantages to playing the ride and hats with the same hand.

I actually did, but I'm right handed and want to keep leading with it too. I think if I were naturally lefty then I´ll definitely move the ride, but I want to keep some balance on the kit (meaning it will somewhat cramp my left side with a HH, ride and crash).
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

This is an interesting topic. We all like to debate whether open-handed drumming is a good idea, a bad idea, helpful, harmful, more convenient, less convenient, a fad, the way of the future, etc. etc. etc. In fact, I've taken part in numerous such discussions on this forum myself. But here's the thing - regardless of the conclusions we draw in these discussions, the fact is that open-handed drumming has greatly spread over the past few years, and it certainly doesn't seem to be slowing down!

When I started playing many years ago, nobody talked about open-handed drumming. Yes, Billy, Lenny, and Simon played that way. Yes, Jim Chapin and Gary Chester both recommended it in their landmark books. But it was not something that you normally saw when you watched a concert. It was not something that drummers debated on a regular basis. Personally, I don't even remember us using the term "open-handed drumming."

All of this has changed now. If I watch random drumming videos on YouTube, I always stumble upon a few drummers who play open-handed. A few years ago, I played in a bar band competition. At the event, I played open-handed (I can play both ways), and the drummer in the band right after me played open-handed as well. I recently went and saw a show with 3 bands. Out of the 3 drummers, 2 of them played open-handed. Every few weeks, somebody on this forum brings up "open-handed drumming." Modern Drummer magazine has been running articles about "open-handed drumming." And so on, and so on, and so on...

The point is that "open-handed drumming" is here in a big way now. It's almost not even worth debating about it anymore. It is here, and it is only growing. This seems obvious to me. In my opinion, the thing to do at this point is simply accept that it is here, accept that it works, and embrace it as part of the drumming world. Doing anything else will likely just make us look foolish in the long run. It's like the old quote "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." hahaha! It doesn't mean that we all need to play this way, but it's kinda silly at this point to pretend that it doesn't work or that it's only something for a tiny handful of drumming geniuses like Simon Phillips.

I guess I'm seriously dating myself here when I say this, but I remember when the same basic scenario occurred with matched grip and with double bass. There was a period when matched grip was viewed suspiciously by many people. Yes, a lot of great ROCK drummers played that way, but it was somewhat blasphemous to suggest that a drummer could play ultra-technical nuances with matched grip. Well, maybe Billy Cobham could do that, but he was obviously "an exception." And what happened? Little by little, while certain segments of the drum population scoffed and warned us that it couldn't be done, others in the drum world simply moved forward with it, and matched grip has become a dominant part of drumming...regardless of the technical level of the music. Max Roach switched to matched grip later in life. Jack DeJohnette has recently done the same. Bill Stewart, Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and countless others are now establishing a new norm for jazz with matched grip.

Double bass was largely considered a "gimmick" by many "serious" drummers just 20 years ago. I remember it being called "cheating." I remember many drummers almost looking down on a person who had a double pedal on their kit. Well, I guess we all know what happened there! The double pedal and double bass playing in general has not only become accepted, but it has reached a level of popularity that nobody could have predicted. As a teacher, at this point, I honestly feel that I need to stay up on double bass or find a different career! Living in New York, I've had the good fortune of seeing Steve Gadd play numerous times recently. And guess what...Steve is now using a double pedal. Yep, he likes to do fills and big finishes with it. Oh, and by the way, he is also playing almost exclusively matched grip now. So...things change, and drumming techniques evolve. The greats are rarely the ones who fight this. What would be the point? By fighting it, we only limit ourselves and then often end up eating our words 15 years later. I propose that we acknowledge the growing popularity of open-handed drumming, acknowledge that it does open up some nice possibilities, acknowledge that it probably isn't going away at this point, and embrace and practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary.
 
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Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

This is an interesting topic. We all like to debate whether open-handed drumming is a good idea, a bad idea, helpful, harmful, more convenient, less convenient, a fad, the way of the future, etc. etc. etc. In fact, I've taken part in numerous such discussions on this forum myself. But here's the thing - regardless of the conclusions we draw in these discussions, the fact is that open-handed drumming has greatly spread over the past few years, and it certainly doesn't seem to be slowing down!

When I started playing many years ago, nobody talked about open-handed drumming. Yes, Billy, Lenny, and Simon played that way. Yes, Jim Chapin and Gary Chester both recommended it in their landmark books. But it was not something that you normally saw when you watched a concert. It was not something that drummers debated on a regular basis. Personally, I don't even remember us using the term "open-handed drumming."

All of this has changed now. If I watch random drumming videos on YouTube, I always stumble upon a few drummers who play open-handed. A few years ago, I played in a bar band competition. At the event, I played open-handed (I can play both ways), and the drummer in the band right after me played open-handed as well. I recently went and saw a show with 3 bands. Out of the 3 drummers, 2 of them played open-handed. Every few weeks, somebody on this forum brings up "open-handed drumming." Modern Drummer magazine has been running articles about "open-handed drumming." And so on, and so on, and so on...

The point is that "open-handed drumming" is here in a big way now. It's almost not even worth debating about it anymore. It is here, and it is only growing. This seems obvious to me. In my opinion, the thing to do at this point is simply accept that it is here, accept that it works, and embrace it as part of the drumming world. Doing anything else will likely just make us look foolish in the long run. It's like the old quote "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." hahaha! It doesn't mean that we all need to play this way, but it's kinda silly at this point to pretend that it doesn't work or that it's only something for a tiny handful of drumming geniuses like Simon Phillips.

I guess I'm seriously dating myself here when I say this, but I remember when the same basic scenario occurred with matched grip and with double bass. There was a period when matched grip was viewed suspiciously by many people. Yes, a lot of great ROCK drummers played that way, but it was somewhat blasphemous to suggest that a drummer could play ultra-technical nuances with matched grip. Well, maybe Billy Cobham could do that, but he was obviously "an exception." And what happened? Little by little, while certain segments of the drum population scoffed and warned us that it couldn't be done, others in the drum world simply moved forward with it, and matched grip has become a dominant part of drumming...regardless of the technical level of the music. Max Roach switched to matched grip later in life. Jack DeJohnette has recently done the same. Bill Stewart, Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and countless others are now establishing a new norm for jazz with matched grip.

Double bass was largely considered a "gimmick" by many "serious" drummers just 20 ago. I remember it being called "cheating." I remember many drummers almost looking down on a person who had a double pedal on their kit. Well, I guess we all know what happened there! The double pedal and double bass playing in general has not only become accepted, but it has reached a level of popularity that nobody could have predicted. As a teacher, at this point, I honestly feel that I need to stay up on double bass or find a different career! Living in New York, I've had the good fortune of seeing Steve Gadd play numerous times recently. And guess what...Steve is now using a double pedal. Yep, he likes to do fills and big finishes with it. Oh, and by the way, he is also playing almost exclusively matched grip now. So...things change, and drumming techniques evolve. The greats are rarely the ones who fight this. What would be the point? By fighting it, we only limit ourselves and then often end up eating our words 15 years later. I propose that we acknowledge the growing popularity of open-handed drumming, acknowledge that it does open up some nice possibilities, acknowledge that it probably isn't going away at this point, and embrace and practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary.

awesome post......very well thought out

even though in my every day playing I am a single kick, 80% traditional grip player who does not play open hand on a regular basis......I fully appreciate everything said here

and as you mentioned.....as a teacher I need to be on top of and we well versed in everything that is going on
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

I propose that we acknowledge the growing popularity of open-handed drumming, acknowledge that it does open up some nice possibilities, acknowledge that it probably isn't going away at this point, and embrace and practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary.

Brilliant post Matt ...as always, evolution is linked with innovation and/or breaking the boundaries of what's been done before us and will be done and developed after us, your post is a good reminder of these transitions, and that last paragraph sums it all up very nicely indeed... it's called open-minded.
 
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?

This is an interesting topic. We all like to debate whether open-handed drumming is a good idea, a bad idea, helpful, harmful, more convenient, less convenient, a fad, the way of the future, etc. etc. etc. In fact, I've taken part in numerous such discussions on this forum myself. But here's the thing - regardless of the conclusions we draw in these discussions, the fact is that open-handed drumming has greatly spread over the past few years, and it certainly doesn't seem to be slowing down!

When I started playing many years ago, nobody talked about open-handed drumming. Yes, Billy, Lenny, and Simon played that way. Yes, Jim Chapin and Gary Chester both recommended it in their landmark books. But it was not something that you normally saw when you watched a concert. It was not something that drummers debated on a regular basis. Personally, I don't even remember us using the term "open-handed drumming."

All of this has changed now. If I watch random drumming videos on YouTube, I always stumble upon a few drummers who play open-handed. A few years ago, I played in a bar band competition. At the event, I played open-handed (I can play both ways), and the drummer in the band right after me played open-handed as well. I recently went and saw a show with 3 bands. Out of the 3 drummers, 2 of them played open-handed. Every few weeks, somebody on this forum brings up "open-handed drumming." Modern Drummer magazine has been running articles about "open-handed drumming." And so on, and so on, and so on...

The point is that "open-handed drumming" is here in a big way now. It's almost not even worth debating about it anymore. It is here, and it is only growing. This seems obvious to me. In my opinion, the thing to do at this point is simply accept that it is here, accept that it works, and embrace it as part of the drumming world. Doing anything else will likely just make us look foolish in the long run. It's like the old quote "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." hahaha! It doesn't mean that we all need to play this way, but it's kinda silly at this point to pretend that it doesn't work or that it's only something for a tiny handful of drumming geniuses like Simon Phillips.

I guess I'm seriously dating myself here when I say this, but I remember when the same basic scenario occurred with matched grip and with double bass. There was a period when matched grip was viewed suspiciously by many people. Yes, a lot of great ROCK drummers played that way, but it was somewhat blasphemous to suggest that a drummer could play ultra-technical nuances with matched grip. Well, maybe Billy Cobham could do that, but he was obviously "an exception." And what happened? Little by little, while certain segments of the drum population scoffed and warned us that it couldn't be done, others in the drum world simply moved forward with it, and matched grip has become a dominant part of drumming...regardless of the technical level of the music. Max Roach switched to matched grip later in life. Jack DeJohnette has recently done the same. Bill Stewart, Ari Hoenig, Eric Harland, and countless others are now establishing a new norm for jazz with matched grip.

Double bass was largely considered a "gimmick" by many "serious" drummers just 20 ago. I remember it being called "cheating." I remember many drummers almost looking down on a person who had a double pedal on their kit. Well, I guess we all know what happened there! The double pedal and double bass playing in general has not only become accepted, but it has reached a level of popularity that nobody could have predicted. As a teacher, at this point, I honestly feel that I need to stay up on double bass or find a different career! Living in New York, I've had the good fortune of seeing Steve Gadd play numerous times recently. And guess what...Steve is now using a double pedal. Yep, he likes to do fills and big finishes with it. Oh, and by the way, he is also playing almost exclusively matched grip now. So...things change, and drumming techniques evolve. The greats are rarely the ones who fight this. What would be the point? By fighting it, we only limit ourselves and then often end up eating our words 15 years later. I propose that we acknowledge the growing popularity of open-handed drumming, acknowledge that it does open up some nice possibilities, acknowledge that it probably isn't going away at this point, and embrace and practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary.

Funny I was reading half of what you wrote and I was thinking about what you eventually said some lines below about double-bass. This pretty much happens on a lot of other fields, like it or not open-handed drumming is here to stay, great post!
 
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