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  #1  
Old 09-27-2015, 08:56 PM
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Default Extensive Review of Resotune II

here we go again! I tested and wrote an extensive review of the Resotune II.

http://compactdrums.com/extensive-re...f-resotune-ii/

Comments welcome!
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  #2  
Old 09-27-2015, 10:36 PM
dboomer dboomer is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

Im in 100% agreement with your findings. I've been using the Resotune for a couple of years now. NOTHING ELSE works this well (or in this manner). For all those "use your ears" guys, sorry, this kicks your ass. No ones ears are anywhere close to the precision you can get time after time. With your ears (or a Tunebot et all) you still have to hit the drum exactly in the same place with the exact same force. That's simply not possible. The Resotune generates a tone that creates a standing wave on the head so that tone is identical in a given diameter to whatever the consistency of the head is.

If you get a chance to try one in person you'll see in seconds as you perform the "clear lug" function that the drum immediately begins to "sing" as you twist the tension rod into the correct spot on the meter.

Yes, it's a bit more pricy than some other things. But you get what you pay for and if you would simply like to once and for all fix your tuning problems then this is it.
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:26 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

I remember when RESOTUNE first came out, I was at the crossroads of 'this is 'it' gotta have it' ready to buy, but never did. I talked to the inventor on the phone back then, and he said he was working on an affordable model, it was $300+ when I enquired.

So what's the difference between the older $300+ model and this new cheaper one? And can you hit on some more positives and negs about using the unit(s) in the real world.

In the drummer Joe YouTube vid what's going on exactly. Did the bottom head already get tuned?

Is the drum on a stand, could the alternate head be muted/against the floor when 'clearing'?

What is the procedure for tuning the bottom head to a different note to effect decay?

Last edited by Les Ismore; 10-02-2015 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:10 AM
0sparky0 0sparky0 is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

Somewhat ironically, I recently threw away an original Resotune, which I bought new and just couldn't figure out how to use. I was totally sold on the idea when I got it, as I am now. Maybe I'm too old to get it. I DO get the TuneBot, and if the Resotune II was as easy to use, I'd probably try it again.

The original one was really just too hard to use for a layman. Even the directions were confusing.

Is this new one genuinely simple to use?
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  #5  
Old 10-02-2015, 05:48 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
I remember when RESOTUNE first came out, I was at the crossroads of 'this is 'it' gotta have it' ready to buy, but never did. I talked to the inventor on the phone back then, and he said he was working on an affordable model, it was $300+ when I enquired.

So what's the difference between the older $300+ model and this new cheaper one? And can you hit on some more positives and negs about using the unit(s) in the real world.

In the drummer Joe YouTube vid what's going on exactly. Did the bottom head already get tuned?

Is the drum on a stand, could the alternate head be muted/against the floor when 'clearing'?

What is the procedure for tuning the bottom head to a different note to effect decay?
When clearing the lugs it doesn't really matter if the other head is muted. It matters the most when tuning the fundamental pitch of the drum.

Decide which notes you are targeting, then tune the heads one at a time to those notes. easy-peasy.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:50 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by 0sparky0 View Post
Somewhat ironically, I recently threw away an original Resotune, which I bought new and just couldn't figure out how to use. I was totally sold on the idea when I got it, as I am now. Maybe I'm too old to get it. I DO get the TuneBot, and if the Resotune II was as easy to use, I'd probably try it again.

The original one was really just too hard to use for a layman. Even the directions were confusing.

Is this new one genuinely simple to use?
It is simple to use, once you "get" it. I took my time playing with it, reading the instrux and playing with it some more to get real familiar with it.
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  #7  
Old 10-02-2015, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

Meh. Call me once you can use it in a noisy club with music on the house system.

Call me a curmudgeon if you like, but I have no space in my budget (of either money or patience) for gadgets of limited use to me.
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  #8  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:00 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
I remember when RESOTUNE first came out, I was at the crossroads of 'this is 'it' gotta have it' ready to buy, but never did. I talked to the inventor on the phone back then, and he said he was working on an affordable model, it was $300+ when I enquired.
Yes that would be me.... When I introduced RESOTUNE (over ten years ago) it was closer to $350...
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So what's the difference between the older $300+ model and this new cheaper one? And can you hit on some more positives and negs about using the unit(s) in the real world.
Since the RESOTUNE II is the second generation product, I included improvements based on customer feedback, "and" used more modern technology, to increase the processor power (16b @ 7MHz) and lower current draw from a class D audio amp to improve battery life. the RESOTUNE is smaller and lighter that the old RESOTUNE. (I tried to make it even smaller but it doesn't work right without the two speakers.) If i could do this with a sniffer I'd be selling an IPHONE app. It is against my religion to sell a hardware product that could be done with software and a smartphone. :-)

I changed the general organization and displays. The first generation mainly looked at the lug note (you had to press multiple buttons to get at the fundamental note.) In response to customer feedback The new version reads and displays both the fundamental and lug notes. Then you can fine tune one or the other by pressing the right "tune" button.
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In the drummer Joe YouTube vid what's going on exactly. Did the bottom head already get tuned?
I suspect so... I think you are talking about a video by Joe Bertram. I wanted to get Eric to do a video for me (like pretty much everybody else), but he got tangled up in a lawsuit and can't look at tuners these days.
Quote:
Is the drum on a stand, could the alternate head be muted/against the floor when 'clearing'?
You could "clear" with the resonant head damped (the lug resonance is local to each head) but not sure why you would want to. I prefer to tune a drum as you would play it...so nothing artificially damped.
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What is the procedure for tuning the bottom head to a different note to effect decay?
You just tune the bottom head to a different lug note. In case this isn't obvious you turn the drum upside down so RESOTUNE can read and measure that head.

The basic invention, my (patented) strategy to clear lugs, is pretty much the same as the first generation, but the new version is faster at performing scans to read the drum tuning, and hopefully easier to use (I tried).

John Roberts
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  #9  
Old 10-04-2015, 12:17 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
Meh. Call me once you can use it in a noisy club with music on the house system.

Call me a curmudgeon if you like, but I have no space in my budget (of either money or patience) for gadgets of limited use to me.
It probably works about the same as tuning by ear, or a note sniffer, in that environment.

I recall being at PASIC with my first generation RESOTUNE (in the quiet section) and my demo drum was vibrating and generating a level reading on the RESOTUNE just from the ambient noise. (I gave away ear plugs at that show.)

I do not suggest trying to use RESOTUNE in such an environment, but it would probably work. You might need to repeat a measurement if you bass player hits the wrong notes at the wrong time. :-( I was able to demo RESOTUNE at PASIC. If you've been there you know how noisy that can be, even in the quiet section.

A drum dial will work in that environment but it will only get you so close. I sold drum dials on my website for use rough tuning, like when changing heads, and Steve Fischer (of Drum Dial) is an old customer (first and second generation). Here's a picture of his tympani with a RESOTUNE sitting on it Ckeck here for Steve's personal comments about RESOTUNE http://circularscience.com/reviews-and-users

I understand the difficulty in spending money for something you can't hit. If you can get good tone by ear, more power to you. Many can't or else i wouldn't do this.

Life is too short for poorly tuned drums.

John Roberts
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  #10  
Old 10-04-2015, 01:33 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by 0sparky0 View Post
Somewhat ironically, I recently threw away an original Resotune, which I bought new and just couldn't figure out how to use. I was totally sold on the idea when I got it, as I am now. Maybe I'm too old to get it. I DO get the TuneBot, and if the Resotune II was as easy to use, I'd probably try it again.

The original one was really just too hard to use for a layman. Even the directions were confusing.

Is this new one genuinely simple to use?
The Tune bot is a note sniffer. Strike the drum head near a lug and it reads the pitch. In theory if you hit the exact same spots each time, with the same force, by each lug and make them all read exactly the same you will have a clear drumhead. RESOTUNE has an additional step after tuning the lugs to pitch where we set up a standing wave in the drumhead at the lug resonance then measure the phase or delay response between the sent and returning waveform. This allows a higher level of precision for lug matching (sorry other guys it's patented).
======
I invested a lot of time and effort making the second generation easier to use than the first. One complication in the first generation is that I was learning about drum physics on the job so to speak (no textbooks describe how to do this. I bought the only percussion physics book-ROSSI.).

The original mechanical design came first and I did not have enough of the right buttons in the right places, so some operations that I later determined were useful required two or three button presses to get there (mea culpa). I could have thrown away the first production run but then it would be even more expensive to sell these. So I added the extra functions with more complicated software. :-(

For the current version I tried to make the user interface intuitive and seamless. Press any button from any mode and it should do something useful and logical. Want to jump to another mode just press the other button.

#1 sit it on top of the drum and press "Find Both". It will scan the entire note range and read the lowest fundamental (drum note) and next higher resonance (lug note). After that it will jump into tune mode and fine tune the lug note. To tune to a different lug note just start twisting lugs and it will follow you on the display. If you want to target a drum note just press tune drum and it will fine tune that. Of course for lug note you will need to move resotune around to read by each lug. Tune drum can read from one spot, but you still need to adjust all the lugs a similar amount. After tuning to a target drum (fundamental note) you need to jump back to tune lug mode and make them all the same (no matter what note they are).

#2 when finished targeting your note voicing, or just capturing the current lug note, press "Clear Lug" button to jump to clear mode. Now the clear mode display will indicate the clear status of the lug that RESOTUNE is pointed at. The first will be the reference, then move around to each lug and clear them one at a time.

The RESOTUNE II is already a few tears old, but the review is new (Thank you Magnus).

John Roberts
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  #11  
Old 10-04-2015, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

And how do I tune a drum or all of my drums if I want them to be higher in tone. Say a more jazz tuning? And in the latest edition of Drum Magazine which I got today, Richard Danielson, who is on the cover said, "...I don't want to get too romantic about it, but music is not about perfection. " I can buy a lot of heads or other drum related goods for the price of that machine and still tune by ear well enough that in a crowded venue playing with a band that no one is going to tell the difference. And this thread goes so well with this thread, "http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127781, about homogenized music in todays world, that drums don't need to be perfect.
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:17 AM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
And how do I tune a drum or all of my drums if I want them to be higher in tone. Say a more jazz tuning?
I would assume that you would simply tune them to a harmonic of the fundamental, so that you still take advantage of the shell's musical properties.

@john_r

How wide is the range of a shell's fundamental? Is it really just a 1-note wide narrow peak, or is it shaped like a bell curve that you can ballpark (3 notes wide for example)?

I only ask because many of us are far more interested in a musical increment between toms (maj 4th or 5th) than we are about a particularly optimized tone. Can we have our cake and eat it to?
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

I'm sure drums have more than a 1 note range to still sound good. My 12 inch Renown tom is low now but I have had it much higher without trouble. It may not pass the electrical engineer oscilloscope test but we are talking drums here. The other problem I see is that I have to take my drums off of the rack or stand to make them level for this to work properly. And what about snares. Mine are all pretty much cranked on the batter and I'm sure that is not the fundamental pitch for the shell.

Last edited by GruntersDad; 10-04-2015 at 02:31 AM.
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2015, 03:15 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
And how do I tune a drum or all of my drums if I want them to be higher in tone. Say a more jazz tuning?
For higher pitch turn the lugs clockwise.
Quote:
And in the latest edition of Drum Magazine which I got today, Richard Danielson, who is on the cover said, "...I don't want to get too romantic about it, but music is not about perfection. " I can buy a lot of heads or other drum related goods for the price of that machine and still tune by ear well enough that in a crowded venue playing with a band that no one is going to tell the difference. And this thread goes so well with this thread, "http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127781, about homogenized music in todays world, that drums don't need to be perfect.
Indeed they are percussion instruments so more about thud than ring.

But better is always better...

In my experience a well tuned (cleared) drum is more fun to play, but YMMV.

JR
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:23 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I would assume that you would simply tune them to a harmonic of the fundamental, so that you still take advantage of the shell's musical properties.
Drums do not exhibit simple harmonics, Since the overtone is not just multiple transits over the same path as the fundamental, overtones have non integer multiples. For more than you want to know see... http://circularscience.com/about-drums
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@john_r

How wide is the range of a shell's fundamental? Is it really just a 1-note wide narrow peak, or is it shaped like a bell curve that you can ballpark (3 notes wide for example)?
I am not sure I understand the question. The range of a drums fundamental depend on the mass and tension of "both" heads. So the same shell can be happy over a range of fundamental tunings with different heads and tension.
Quote:

I only ask because many of us are far more interested in a musical increment between toms (maj 4th or 5th) than we are about a particularly optimized tone. Can we have our cake and eat it to?
You can adjust the delta or difference between notes independent of the actual notes (just the difference between them) . When playing a run across the toms you want a musical spread of notes, whether the audience recognizes actual notes played is questionable.. (do they recognize guitar notes... only when very wrong. ) If striking dead center for runs you want to focus on tuning the fundamental notes, it striking off-center the lug note will dominate (most strike dead center for such runs).

JR
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by john_roberts View Post
For higher pitch turn the lugs clockwise.


Indeed they are percussion instruments so more about thud than ring.

But better is always better...

In my experience a well tuned (cleared) drum is more fun to play, but YMMV.

JR
I understand turning the lug screws will raise the pitch but how do I know if all are in tune with each other using this machine.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I understand turning the lug screws will raise the pitch but how do I know if all are in tune with each other using this machine.
Resotune needs to be moved around the drumhead and pointed at each lug one at a time. After they all agree that they are tuned to the same lug note, then you shift into clear mode and fine clear the lugs to agree with each other.

Clear mode is different than tune lug, it operates at the already determined lug note and fine tweaks the phase shift between individual lugs. Far more precise that just adjusting pitch.

JR
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:03 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I understand turning the lug screws will raise the pitch but how do I know if all are in tune with each other using this machine.
I believe (but I may be laboring under false understanding) it's finding the low fundamental of the head for where the head is tensioned at the time, so If it's tuned high and you do a "find both" it will find the fundamental of the drum at that higher tension and also the lug note for that tension. Change the tension to a lower tone and the tuner will find the corresponding fundamental for you to fine tune the lug notes to clear the head.
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Old 10-04-2015, 04:43 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Originally Posted by Wally Young View Post
I believe (but I may be laboring under false understanding) it's finding the low fundamental of the head for where the head is tensioned at the time, so If it's tuned high and you do a "find both" it will find the fundamental of the drum at that higher tension and also the lug note for that tension. Change the tension to a lower tone and the tuner will find the corresponding fundamental for you to fine tune the lug notes to clear the head.
Yes, after "find both" when it transitions to "tune lug" it will follow the actual lug resonance. It will follow the tuning down as you adjust the lugs. After a significant interval it will jump into tune drum for one sweep just to confirm the current fundamental note then return to sweeping around the lug note for fine tuning.

Clearing the head is done with the lug overtone. The fundamental note does not make a standing wave (more like a piston moving in/out) so does not support RESOTUNE's clear mode which measures phase shift or time delay in the standing wave relative to the original source.

JR
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:08 AM
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how do I know if all are in tune with each other using this machine.
That's pretty much a judgement call you have to make for yourself. Are you tuning to 3rds, 4ths, fifths, here comes the bride? Once you decide which you are tuning to the machine will tell you the note intervals but you have to pick the first note.

I usually tune one tom (by ear) until it sounds about right. I might even pick a tom note from a recording and tune to that (roughly). Then I use the Resotune to dial it in. The lug clearing feature will just allow that drum to sing out. You will instantly hear that you are there as the clear lug LEDs turn green. So once you have one drum where you want it the machine will read you the fundamental pitch. If you are tuning to say 4ths then you go to the next drum and perform "find note" to a 4th higher than your reference drum and so on.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:18 PM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by john_roberts View Post
Here's a picture of his tympani with a RESOTUNE sitting on it
That's about the only place I could ever imagine using your device: In a quiet room to tune tympani after replacing heads (or moving the drums a lot). In every other application I can imagine it's just impractical.

Let me be clear: Your device is amazing. It's an utterly brilliant piece of technology. It, however, like the other drum-tuning devices, is just not worth it.

First, a person who can't tune his instrument has no business playing it. Period. Using your ears to tune your instrument is not a talent, it's a learned skill. Go back to the woodshed and don't come out until you can do it right.

Second, it'd be one thing if your device was like a guitarist's clip-on tuner or plug-in tuner pedal. Those devices save a lot of time over a pitch pipe and tuning by ear, especially in the type of noisy environment in which musicians work. None of the drum-tuning devices do that, and yours by your own admission is even more susceptible to ambient noise.

Third, widgets are without exception time-consuming to use. A drummer trained to tune can, with nothing more than a drum key, tune a tom-tom in the time it takes to properly set up your device.

Fourth, the devices have a longer list of requirements to work properly - and therefore maneuver space for the makers to claim operator error when they don't work - than is ever available to a working musician.

So nope. Not for me, not for drumset.

All that said, if I was an orchestral percussionist I'd punch people in the face to get to the front of the line to buy one, because tympani are a complete PITA to bring into tune before performance (using lugs, not pedals). And being able to tune orchestral drums to pure tones is a wonderful addition to the percussionist's arsenal.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2015, 07:52 PM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by STXBob View Post
That's about the only place I could ever imagine using your device: In a quiet room to tune tympani after replacing heads (or moving the drums a lot). In every other application I can imagine it's just impractical.
:-)
Quote:
Let me be clear: Your device is amazing. It's an utterly brilliant piece of technology. It, however, like the other drum-tuning devices, is just not worth it.
:-)
Quote:
First, a person who can't tune his instrument has no business playing it. Period. Using your ears to tune your instrument is not a talent, it's a learned skill. Go back to the woodshed and don't come out until you can do it right.
There would be a lot less drummers that way too. :-)

On my website I host a link to advice about how to "tap tune" written by an old friend of mine who designed and made his own brand of drums. http://circularscience.com/wp-conten...ning_Volpp.pdf

If you have poor short term pitch memory one of those voice memo devices might capture and play back the pitch from the first lug to make it easier to match the same pitch at the other lugs while tap tuning.

Clearing a drum by ear is not about hearing pitch per se but recognizing the open sound of a well cleared drum, after you get the lugs into rough pitch agreement, then you listen for the drum to open up... If this was easy there wouldn't be a drum tuning industry, but AFAIK I make the only tuner that reads and displays clear quality.
Quote:
Second, it'd be one thing if your device was like a guitarist's clip-on tuner or plug-in tuner pedal. Those devices save a lot of time over a pitch pipe and tuning by ear, especially in the type of noisy environment in which musicians work. None of the drum-tuning devices do that, and yours by your own admission is even more susceptible to ambient noise.
As I describe at length, guitars make single notes at a time so are relatively easy to capture pitch. Tuning drums are not as much about hitting specific pitches as head/lug clearing (IMO).
Quote:
Third, widgets are without exception time-consuming to use. A drummer trained to tune can, with nothing more than a drum key, tune a tom-tom in the time it takes to properly set up your device.
I do not argue otherwise, but many drummers never attain the clear quality that my invention does, despite years of trying. (My customers tell me so.)
Quote:
Fourth, the devices have a longer list of requirements to work properly - and therefore maneuver space for the makers to claim operator error when they don't work - than is ever available to a working musician.
??? While I am critical of the competition I stand behind my product and know that it works.
Quote:
So nope. Not for me, not for drumset.
You are not my target demographic, and I do not expect to convert you.
Quote:
All that said, if I was an orchestral percussionist I'd punch people in the face to get to the front of the line to buy one, because tympani are a complete PITA to bring into tune before performance (using lugs, not pedals). And being able to tune orchestral drums to pure tones is a wonderful addition to the percussionist's arsenal.
I actually do not market my tuner to tympanists. I did make a special version of the first generation RESOTUNE for Steve to use with his Tympani. He is using a stock RESOTUNE II now. I need to get him to write up his approach for other tympanists. I like to quote Steve in my user area because he makes and sells drum tuners, while using and endorsing mine.

In fact tympanists often need to tweak individual lugs in the middle of a performance (thats why they have big handles on the lugs) so my device making it's own sounds would be unwelcome in the middle of an orchestra performance (they've told me so). I recall seeing a commercial tympani note sniffer that clips to the tympani rim edge years before tune bot came to market.

Sorry, I do not want to sound argumentative but naturally I am defensive. With the exception of mechanical tuners like Drum Dial (head tension) or the less accurate lug torque techniques, any approach that listens to the drum will be impacted by ambient noise occurring in the same drum tuning note range. I am not convinced that tap tuning by ear or note sniffers will be less affected than my approach of driving the drumhead with speakers and a steady sine wave. I can imagine a loud bass player in the same frequency range causing momentary perturbations in my device readouts, but anyone in the same room will hear the ambient event occur and disregard any transitory errors. Just like I expect a tap tuner to do in that environment.

That said I do not warrant my device for use in very noisy environments but as I mentioned before I was able to demonstrate RESOTUNE on the floor of PASSIC and that was not exactly quiet.

John Roberts

PS: I very much agree that people should learn how to tune their drums and provide (free) advice on my website for how to get as close as they can without cybernetic assistance. Some people and some problem drums need all the help they can get.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:30 PM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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First, a person who can't tune his instrument has no business playing it. Period. Using your ears to tune your instrument is not a talent, it's a learned skill. Go back to the woodshed and don't come out until you can do it right.
Yeah—but, do you remember when you were learning and trying to tune your drums and losing your mind like most everybody else who first learned to tune?

I remember sometimes spending hours on the set trying to get it perfect. Maybe it's easier now that I'm older because I can't hear the very high frequencies that I could when I was younger. The comb filtering and reflective interferences are not as influential now. It also took years to learn to trust my own ears.

Perfect is now inconsequential to me, but it's a hard thing to learn and I think a good tuner does wonders for a bad room.

I remember going into the studio while on the road and I needed to quickly get the drums from wavering while in a dead iso booth. It was a challenge tuning the waver out of the bottom head by hitting the top, and would have gone much faster with one of these contraptions. I'm sure it wouldn't have worked with a TuneBot jobbie.
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Old 10-05-2015, 02:47 AM
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There would be a lot less drummers that way too. :-)

Clearing a drum by ear is not about hearing pitch per se but recognizing the open sound of a well cleared drum, after you get the lugs into rough pitch agreement, then you listen for the drum to open up...
Recognizing a cleared drum, or pitches, or whatever, is something one learns. If one can learn to play beats, or fills, or any other part of playing, one can learn to tune. Any other answer is an excuse. It's a cop-out.

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I do not argue otherwise, but many drummers never attain the clear quality that my invention does, despite years of trying. (My customers tell me so.)
Okay, fair enough. It's still a cop-out, because they gave up. It's hard. I'm real with that. But it's a necessary part of being a musician. If they didn't think that, they wouldn't buy your product.

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You are not my target demographic, and I do not expect to convert you.
Cool. And please know I don't mean to crap in your sandbox. I appreciate you're bringing a product into a very competitive niche market, and I wish you every success. At the same time, it irks me that that niche market exists at all.

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I actually do not market my tuner to tympanists.
Maybe you should consider that. That's even more niche - if that's at all possible! - but it's a very good tool for that purpose.

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In fact tympanists often need to tweak individual lugs in the middle of a performance (thats why they have big handles on the lugs) so my device making it's own sounds would be unwelcome in the middle of an orchestra performance (they've told me so). I recall seeing a commercial tympani note sniffer that clips to the tympani rim edge years before tune bot came to market.
That's new to me. I can only remember one instance where I had to tweak a lug after bringing the drum into tune after a head swap, and that's because I failed to tune it properly in the first place.

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Sorry, I do not want to sound argumentative but naturally I am defensive.
I don't blame you. I'm being more than a little argumentative myself. Call it devil's advocacy. ;-)

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With the exception of mechanical tuners like Drum Dial (head tension) or the less accurate lug torque techniques, any approach that listens to the drum will be impacted by ambient noise occurring in the same drum tuning note range.
While not wishing to be offensive, in a word, "Duh." Ears can be trained to filter out the noise and still do the job, or at least recognize what a properly-tuned drum should sound like with noise happening.

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I am not convinced that tap tuning by ear or note sniffers will be less affected than my approach of driving the drumhead with speakers and a steady sine wave.
Fair enough. I'm probably not going to be able to convince you, despite testifying that I can tap tune in noisy environments, and do it on a regular basis. My colleagues and peers could do it, and I taught my students to do it (when I took students).

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PS: I very much agree that people should learn how to tune their drums and provide (free) advice on my website for how to get as close as they can without cybernetic assistance. Some people and some problem drums need all the help they can get.
Awesome! That's a very cool thing.

For the record, I have precisely zero problem with devices like yours. I don't think they're necessary, and I sure as HELL hate seeing people all starry-eyed about them. I hear a lot of bumf about devices that make me wonder, with all due sarcasm, "Gee, I wonder how drummers got anywhere near good tuning for the past 150 years? I guess they just sucked." [rolls eyes]

I'm not just tradition for tradition's sake, either. I like gadgets. But just as my mom has cabinets full of kitchen gadgets like mushroom slicers and salad choppers and all I have is a really sharp knife and the skill to use it, I think gadgets are neat but no substitute for skill and experience.

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Yeah—but, do you remember when you were learning and trying to tune your drums and losing your mind like most everybody else who first learned to tune?
Yes. That's why I overcame it and learned to tune. What's your point?
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:05 AM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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I'm not just tradition for tradition's sake, either. I like gadgets. But just as my mom has cabinets full of kitchen gadgets like mushroom slicers and salad choppers and all I have is a really sharp knife and the skill to use it, I think gadgets are neat but no substitute for skill and experience.


Yes. That's why I overcame it and learned to tune. What's your point?
Just that it's probably the better of all the tuners out there and even a person who can tune a drum quickly might be able to take advantage of it.

If I have a birch drum with clear Ambassadors on top and bottom, I would probably use that thing to save time.

It's like an electric can opener. I don't need one, but my hands are less perturbed by it than a twisty style opener.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:26 AM
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the best there is. Hands down. Learn to make them work.
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Old 10-05-2015, 05:08 AM
mike d mike d is offline
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It seems like a cool tool, but I think it has one small flaw. You don't always get the best sound with every lug at the same pitch. Sometimes I need an "out of tune" lug or two, to get the sound I want. I think it was Buddy Rich, who fired one of his drum techs because he "removed the wrinkle" in his bass drum head. Just sayin'...
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:28 AM
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the best there is. Hands down. Learn to make them work.
JND (just noticeable difference) for human pitch resolution in the range typical for drum fundamental pitch (roughly 100-200Hz) is considered by most studies to be 3%. So with critical listening and great tuning skill tuning by ear you would have a 3% margin of error (assuming you could hit in exactly the same place with exactly the same force each time you struck the drum).

To John Roberts - what is the pitch resolution of your device?

To mike d ... Yes, if you don't want your drum actually in tune with itself you have a point.
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  #29  
Old 10-05-2015, 06:38 PM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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JND (just noticeable difference) for human pitch resolution in the range typical for drum fundamental pitch (roughly 100-200Hz) is considered by most studies to be 3%. So with critical listening and great tuning skill tuning by ear you would have a 3% margin of error (assuming you could hit in exactly the same place with exactly the same force each time you struck the drum).

To John Roberts - what is the pitch resolution of your device?
http://circularscience.com/technical-specifications

25 cents or 4 steps between full notes.

Not to sound like a broken record but tuning to pitch is not the secret sauce to make a drum open up and sound great... it's getting the lugs all the same. Hitting notes while drum tuning is about voicing and musically useful ratios, like for playing runs across the toms.

Some people have good short term pitch memory, useful for tap tuning, some don't. If I was making a smart phone tuning aid, I'd probably have it play notes like a smart tuning fork, then the tap tuner could listen for beat notes between the source and drumhead, as you get close. IIRC Eric's phone app did something like that (I think), before he was shut down.

JR
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To mike d ... Yes, if you don't want your drum actually in tune with itself you have a point.
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  #30  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:09 PM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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It seems like a cool tool, but I think it has one small flaw. You don't always get the best sound with every lug at the same pitch. Sometimes I need an "out of tune" lug or two, to get the sound I want. I think it was Buddy Rich, who fired one of his drum techs because he "removed the wrinkle" in his bass drum head. Just sayin'...
"Best" sound is subjective. RESOTUNE supports detuning lugs up to 25 cents apart. This is in effect de-clearing the drum.

The final "clear" function occurs at a single note pitch so by definition tweaking lugs for the same pitch. Intentionally detuning lugs apart will generate a more complex diffuse set of multiple close overtone resonances, the exact opposite of clearing, which simplifies and expresses less, but purer overtones.

Of course voicing a kit is subjective and the customer is always right, so do what floats your boat. Detuning top and bottom head lugs apart is widely practiced to reduce sustain. Detuning lugs on the same head will clearly step on the lug resonance and reduce sustain, but at a significant cost (IMO) to perceived drum tone.

========

One thing that I have experienced in the lab and customers have confirmed, is that some problem drums deliver the best clear tone, when lugs are tensioned differently. While modern drum heads are pretty consistent, drum edges and shells can vary either because of abuse, environment, or maybe just poor initial manufacturing tolerances. RESOTUNE literally measures the clear quality of the entire system working together as it does when played, so ignores or factors in, sundry mechanical errors.

Something like that may be why Buddy Rich, got angry. He had the drum sounding good, wrinkle and all, and the drum tech blew it trying to make it "look" like it would sound good (not the same thing as actually sounding good).

John Roberts

PS: I like to joke that I make the microscope, and it's up to drummers to cure disease (bad sounding drums). I am a little disappointed that more people haven't dived in to explore the technical aspects of drum kit voicing more rigorously. I had a few customers with the first generation RESOTUNE doing so.
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  #31  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:26 PM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
the best there is. Hands down. Learn to make them work.
The ear is the final judge.....

Over the years I've encountered a few customers with great ears who were very picky. They reported always having to finish tuning (clearing?) by ear after the other tuners out there claimed they were done.

I'd be curious to see how I do in a shoot out between guys who tune by ear and my box, but like I've said before you are not my target market. So it would irritate you and be a waste of my time.


John Roberts
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  #32  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

John, can you run me through (in detail please) how the device ascertains the fundamental pitch of the shell (or more accurately, the entire instrument complete with all it's components). If your device can do this irrespective of head tension, you absolutely have my attention. My interest is in using the device in a drum R&D plus manufacturing environment.

Thanks, Andy.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:37 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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I am not sure I understand the question. The range of a drums fundamental depend on the mass and tension of "both" heads. So the same shell can be happy over a range of fundamental tunings with different heads and tension.
Sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to the shell's fundamental tone 'without' heads. Looking at your product, I had just assumed it would detect shell's sweet spot and an operator could create noted tunings based off of this value. (Looks like Keep It Simple has pretty much the same question).

One last thought... Have you considered moving the logic and UI off of the device? All the device needs to be is a speaker, microphone, and SOC. All the rest (logic/UI) can easily be done via a smartphone.... Come to think of it... my smart phone has a speaker, microphone, and extremely powerful processor....
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  #34  
Old 10-06-2015, 02:54 AM
mike d mike d is offline
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Originally Posted by john_roberts View Post
"Best" sound is subjective. RESOTUNE supports detuning lugs up to 25 cents apart. This is in effect de-clearing the drum.

The final "clear" function occurs at a single note pitch so by definition tweaking lugs for the same pitch. Intentionally detuning lugs apart will generate a more complex diffuse set of multiple close overtone resonances, the exact opposite of clearing, which simplifies and expresses less, but purer overtones.

Of course voicing a kit is subjective and the customer is always right, so do what floats your boat. Detuning top and bottom head lugs apart is widely practiced to reduce sustain. Detuning lugs on the same head will clearly step on the lug resonance and reduce sustain, but at a significant cost (IMO) to perceived drum tone.

========

One thing that I have experienced in the lab and customers have confirmed, is that some problem drums deliver the best clear tone, when lugs are tensioned differently. While modern drum heads are pretty consistent, drum edges and shells can vary either because of abuse, environment, or maybe just poor initial manufacturing tolerances. RESOTUNE literally measures the clear quality of the entire system working together as it does when played, so ignores or factors in, sundry mechanical errors.

Something like that may be why Buddy Rich, got angry. He had the drum sounding good, wrinkle and all, and the drum tech blew it trying to make it "look" like it would sound good (not the same thing as actually sounding good).

John Roberts

PS: I like to joke that I make the microscope, and it's up to drummers to cure disease (bad sounding drums). I am a little disappointed that more people haven't dived in to explore the technical aspects of drum kit voicing more rigorously. I had a few customers with the first generation RESOTUNE doing so.
That makes sense John, and you could be (and probably are) 100% right. I've never delved that deeply into it, I have always gone by ear. Looks like I might have to pick up a RESOTUNE! ;)
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Old 10-06-2015, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

Wow, this turned into a really interesting thread.

One thing to remember, There are more than one ways of doing things for a reason, we are all individuals with preferences, opinions and habits.

I wish I had the ear that I could tune a drum kit to sound it's best to me without technical aids. Or rather, I wish I had the ear and skills to do so within a reasonable timeframe.

However, as much as I think I'm both experienced and pretty good at getting drums to sound good, I also know my own limitations. Devices like the Resotune II allow me to not only get my drums sounding better than ever, FASTER than by traditional methods, They also allow me to to go through a range of multiple voicings in a single day without compromise.
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  #36  
Old 10-06-2015, 07:22 PM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
John, can you run me through (in detail please) how the device ascertains the fundamental pitch of the shell (or more accurately, the entire instrument complete with all it's components). If your device can do this irrespective of head tension, you absolutely have my attention. My interest is in using the device in a drum R&D plus manufacturing environment.

Thanks, Andy.
The RESOTUNE doesn't measure the pitch of free standing shell resonance. It measures the resonances of the entire drum as a system with head(s) mounted, as they would be when played.

I don't want to debate the significance of shell resonances to drum voicing while I have had personal discussions about that in years past with a friend of mine who manufactured and sold drums.

Of course everything matters, the shell mass, the shell diameter and depth, which captures a mass of air between the two heads. Besides the air path between the two heads there is a mechanical path coupling between the two heads via the shell, so there are multiple moving parts in the combined system resonances. I have never seen a comprehensive treatment of the full physics involved in a text, but from talking to drum makers they use physics just don't share their secrets. In my judgement head mass and tension will dominate the combined resonant pitch, while the shell/rim design will influence interaction between the two heads that can change where sweet spots end up. So I don't expect all same size drums with similar heads to express exactly the same sweet spot. I don't expect them to be identical but they should rhyme. :-)

Some dismiss the shell's free resonance due to all the hardware attached to it (the extra mass alone should change the natural frequency), and the fact that it is put under stress (tension) by the drum mounting hardware could make a difference too.

DW has marketed "Timbre-match (r)" based on a free shell resonance, and my customers have reported success targeting those notes. I try to never argue with success, and wish more drum makers would publish target notes, or preferred note ranges for their drums.

If serious about measuring the shell resonance of your drums I would set them up with full hardware (perhaps lacking the heads), and mounted as they would be in use. To be more accurate you need to simulate the mass of the heads too but that is not a stopper. If you tap the shell with heads mounted head mass and tension might alter results (I hear the heads resonating separately after I tap the shell of a nearby drum).

Set up a mic, and tap the shell while looking at the return using a spectrum analyzer (and your ears). You should be able to discern if there is a strong primary resonance or not. I do not want to turn this into a rigorous discussion about drum design but my friend's approach was to use a massive rims system, with thinner than typical shells, with no hardware touching the shells. The thinner shells delivered lower free resonances (? related to mass and rigidity), and the drums were louder than typical, while my suspicion is the loudness he got was due to the rigid rims system, keeping the energy in the heads and not dissipating it into the shell.

I would suggest the same thing I tell my customers. be prepared to invest some time with trial and error. Set up the drums and start experimenting with different voicing, use you ears to dial into the sweet spot/range). As a drum manufacturer you probably need to experiment with a few different popular head combinations. If you can steer your customers and dealers to easier ways to find the sweet spot, that should be a win-win-win.

You can publish tuning targets to agree with the different popular tuning systems (notes for me, Hz for sniffers, and tension for Drum dial). I wouldn't even bother with publishing lug torque.

I hope this helps.

John Roberts
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  #37  
Old 10-06-2015, 09:21 PM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
Sorry if I was unclear. I was referring to the shell's fundamental tone 'without' heads. Looking at your product, I had just assumed it would detect shell's sweet spot and an operator could create noted tunings based off of this value. (Looks like Keep It Simple has pretty much the same question).
Directly measuring a drum's "sweet spot" is not something I know how to do without a very labor intensive, tune-clear-then try as you step up and down within a suspected note range.

To assist any users who are interested in making such intensive measurements, I multiplex my note display to provide level information in the opposite color from the note during the first sweep in tune lug or tune drum. So for the first sweep in tune drum that displays the note in red, it shows level in green and vice versa in tune lug.

I will presume that when the drum is in it's sweet spot/range, it is most resonant and returns the strongest signal wrt to the fixed level signal I send it.
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One last thought... Have you considered moving the logic and UI off of the device? All the device needs to be is a speaker, microphone, and SOC. All the rest (logic/UI) can easily be done via a smartphone.... Come to think of it... my smart phone has a speaker, microphone, and extremely powerful processor....
Yes, I have, but the cost savings for moving the microprocessor "brain" into a smart device is minimal, and perhaps will not even save as much as the added cost (and complexity) of adding communication between slave and control. In fact I would probably still use a processor on the slave unit to translate the received commands into real world signals. Note also there would have to be bi-directional communication if the smart device is supposed to interpret the data coming back.

I have spent ten years trying to make it smaller, lighter, cheaper, and easier to use. Before releasing RESOTUNE II I invested time trying to make it work with smaller speakers (it didn't) and even just one speaker (it works but does not isolate single lug measurements to converge as solidly as it does with two speakers). With only one speaker you have to chase clear around the drum head, sort of like how tap tuners have to chase tuning now, using symmetrical cross lug patterns and the like. With two speakers I can isolate each lug one at a time to simplify measurements and adjustment.

If I could do all this with a smart phone. I'd be crazy to invest in a larger more expensive hardware solution. I have thousands of lines of software code in my device, programming a phone is not the stopper, it's the physics of how drums work.

That said you can probably make a respectable note sniffer with a smart phone, but I would expect the need to still fine clear by ear after getting close with a sniffer. I used to provide a link to Eric's application before he was put out of business. For only a few dollars why not have one of those aps handy too.

John Roberts

PS: one possible advantage of a smart phone interface would be using the richer display capability available on modern devices. I'd like to show the several different resonances at the same time, with level. But the overwhelming feedback I get from drummers (even in this very thread) is that I am already too expensive so I don't need to add any more cost.
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Old 10-06-2015, 09:41 PM
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The RESOTUNE doesn't measure the pitch of free standing shell resonance. It measures the resonances of the entire drum as a system with head(s) mounted, as they would be when played.
Thank you John. in this sentence, you've partially answered my question, except the bit about "independent / irrespective of the head tension".

Is your friend Steven Volpp?

As for your suggestions re: R&D, we've done that, in spades, to the nth degree. I would venture that there's few who delve into the interrelationship of constructional elements as deeply as we do, yet a device that can give a broad assignation of maximum whole instrument excitement would be of great value to us. Unlike DW, we work in solid shell forms, & as such, the variation according to nature's offering is much wider. We use old school "tap, listen, touch & feel" techniques at the board stage, as well as spectral analysis at the R&D stage, but there's nothing like a technological based quick verification, hence my question to you.
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:09 AM
john_roberts john_roberts is offline
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Thank you John. in this sentence, you've partially answered my question, except the bit about "independent / irrespective of the head tension".
Since I point my mic at the drum head and read the sound coming back from head vibration, I can not ignore head tension.
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Is your friend Steven Volpp?
Yes, Steve and I worked together at Peavey when they licensed his drum design. We worked in completely different product areas at Peavey but we are still friends today decades later.
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As for your suggestions re: R&D, we've done that, in spades, to the nth degree. I would venture that there's few who delve into the interrelationship of constructional elements as deeply as we do, yet a device that can give a broad assignation of maximum whole instrument excitement would be of great value to us. Unlike DW, we work in solid shell forms, & as such, the variation according to nature's offering is much wider. We use old school "tap, listen, touch & feel" techniques at the board stage, as well as spectral analysis at the R&D stage, but there's nothing like a technological based quick verification, hence my question to you.
My technology is all about optimizing the lug adjustments for good clear quality independent of drum hardware and edge imperfections. Not sure it would be of much use for analyzing shells.

Just speaking off the top of my head, if you stuff the inside of a drum with sound absorbing batting (like they use inside loudspeakers) to kill the acoustic path between the two heads. Then any sound coming off the bottom head when you excite the top is dominantly coupling through the shell. This may reveal what frequency region the shell is most active in. The final result is more complicated as the phase response of this parallel path can cause constructive or destructive interference with the acoustic path.

I'm sure there are a number of different ways to make good sounding drums. Keep up the good battle.

John Roberts
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Old 10-09-2015, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Extensive Review of Resotune II

I got to experience a RESOTUNE II this last week, hands on tuned a couple kits. What I believe is not immediately understood about the RESOTUNE is that its a computerized tone generator, its actually much more than that, but if you can imagine a device that generates tones and reads the feedback it gets when these tones are applied to a drum, a drum with heads of course (as that's how you play your acoustic drums), you might more easily understand how this devise does what it does. Its not you the tuner tapping the head generating the tones, its the units microprocessor executing perfection each and every time, so the results are of a level of consistency not humanly obtainable with just a drum key and your ears.


"RESOTUNE literally measures the clear quality of the entire system working together as it does when played, so ignores or factors in, sundry mechanical errors."

Is what John says and that 'is' what RESOTUNE does, it analyzes the drum as complete drum, and it does so with tones it generates and analyzes the info in a microprocessor. The results are displayed by LED's and the whole effect and end sonic result is quite amazing I must say.


Do I need a devise to tune my drums? No, I can tune drums really well actually, but what I realized after using RESOTUNE is that it accomplishes exactly what Im trying to do in a short amount of time. What RESOTUNE also made me realize is, I could spend 8 hrs, 8 days, or even 8 weeks tuning a drum kit and I would't be able to tune as accurately as RESOTUNE, the human ear is just too subjective and influenced by too many outside variables all the time (your perception of sound/accuracy of tones can change if you drink a glass of water). So yeah, I'll never be a good as RESOTUNE at tuning drums, again, it does what Im trying to do and it can do it a lot quicker.


The above didn't really come as a surprise, I assumed I'd hear something I haven't heard out of a drum kit before, the purest note form and cleanest fundamental I've ever heard. Could I have gotten this with just my ears and a drum key? Gotten close, but not nailed it like RESOTUNE. The difference between close and nailing it? Let's just say the sound is noticeable, noticeably better, as in you've never heard it 'this good' before.


Let's get back to "...so ignores, or factors in, sundry mechanical errors." which is a big part of the beauty of RESOTUNE IMO. It doesn't care what heads you have on, what combination of heads, if there's nylon washers, a few different tension rods, it sonically analyzes the drum 'as it is' and provides you with a solution to 'clear' the lug notes. You do this by turning a drum key and RESOTUNE guides you both sonically (you can hear the target note audibly when its achieved), and with LED confirmation like a guitar tuner display.



The whole RESOTUNE tuning process is actually pretty easy once you understand what's going on, the most time consuming part of the process is repositioning the unit over each lug to tune them to 'clear', but the more you do this the easier it becomes. I found myself going around twice which is totally understandable. Those 'sundry mechanical errors' that exist in every drum are computed and recomputed by RESOTUNE with each turn of the drum key, and you reach a state of lug-clear with the unit accurately confirming the results, something ones ears simply can't do to the same degree. Those 'results' are in the realm of- "Holy crap this drum sounds in tune like I've never heard before!" and "Im excited to play now!" along with "That wasn't hard, it was fun." Do it once an you're addicted, addicted because the resulting sound is so good.



$175 for a drum tuning devise? There's simply nothing out there that can get your drums this in-tune, the scope of which you can't comprehend until you actually hear the results, or so it was with me and I've been doing this since the 60's.


Do you need your drums in tune to notes? Your drums are tuned to notes, the fact of the matter is they're not tuned to notes as accurately as RESOTUNE can help you get them. Its like once you take a shower, you want to be clean. You control your drum sound destiny with RESOTUNE, no more walks in the dark when tuning, its like night and day, you can see where you're going, and you can now get there quick. After my experience with it, I can't imagine not having a RESOTUNE, it allows you to produce that sound you've always wanted to hear.



Quote:
Recognizing a cleared drum, or pitches, or whatever, is something one learns. If one can learn to play beats, or fills, or any other part of playing, one can learn to tune. Any other answer is an excuse. It's a cop-out.
I could see myself saying that... almost anyway. You 'can' learn and I did, but I can attest I'll never be a able to zero it in like RESOTUNE, its just not humanly possible to be that accurate, and if you did ever become 'lucky' on one head of one drum, you'll never be able to do it as fast as you can with the help of RESOTUNE. The results speak for themselves, until you hear those results you simply can't comprehend a drum (kit- yes even the BD) this 'in tune' is my conclusion.



I agree there needs to be better, more detailed vids on the RESOTUNE and its how too's. The fact we have John Roberts the inventor posting on this thread is fantastic! The RESOTUNE for all intensive purposes in the drumming community is simply genius. Im a convert.
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