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  #1  
Old 11-21-2011, 08:26 PM
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Default Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

"Rock" music is what made me start drumming, I used to love Led Zep, Deep Purple, Rainbow, Cream, The Who... so many to list.

For the first 10 years I only played in rock bands and I enjoyed it immensly, as I gained maturity and musicianship I started to play in different styles, jazz-rock, fusion, funk, smooth jazz, pop and so on, I even had a few bands who played improvised music.

I played with many different bands and met and befriends many musicians who over the years, have influenced my approach to music with their own influences.

The other day, I had a jam session with friends, and for old time sake, we "jammed" over a few classic rock tunes for an hour or so, to everybody's delight.

The thing is, while playing the songs I couldn't help myself thinking "this is not grooving", but don't get me wrong, it was not what I was playing, it was how I was playing it, to me it felt like something was missing. At the end, we talked about the good band from the past and how much we enjoyed that jam session, but no one said anything regarding the feel of my playing, they seemed to have enjoyed it.

Does this kind of feeling happen to you guys? If so, what did you do about it? Or am I being too critical about mysefl?
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Old 11-21-2011, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

I'm not a rock n roll fan and never was but I do know that as you get older your gonna have different music come into your life. Thats a great thing to happen if you think about it because your growth as a musician can move on. As to rock I believe its a youthfull expression and as you grow up and mature it becomes less influential in your life. You remember good times and associate songs with events but now its time to find new songs for an adult life.
I grew playing Muddy Waters Freddy King Louis Jordan these people are the fathers of rock n roll and I enjoyed Elvis Lil Richard Chuck Berry Fats Domino and the other early rockers. I started to find Jimi Hendrix when he came out and thought the Beatles were a good "country" band when they came out hahahaha!!! I still like them all but its different because I'm different. The Rolling Stones for me were a really bad impression of the Muddy Waters Band, Led Zep was a REALLY bad impression of the Howlin Wolf Band because I grew up with those blues bands that these famous rock bands dug too and took some of their songs and got famous using them. They added volumn and a bigger beat stressing the 2/4 and kids thought they were great just like the kids thought Louis Jordan was in the 30s and 40s. I just think that the musicianship was alot better from the older players than the 60s rockers. Back then songs were in #flat keys and way more minor chords were used, there was tenor horn solos and piano or B3 organ solos instead of guitar solos. A band with two guitars still bothers me hahahaha!!! Everything you mentioned sounded right................................except for the "smooth jazz" thing!!! HA!
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Old 11-21-2011, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
Does this kind of feeling happen to you guys? If so, what did you do about it? Or am I being too critical about mysefl?
I think it can happen and has happened to me.

Like yourself, played rock for years when starting out (though was raised on jazz music) and all I could really play was rock.

I have to be the worst rock drummer there is at this point and would not dare to even try playing with other players to make it feel right.

I've listened and played jazz now for far too long to make the transition back. I do still enjoy listening to it, just can't play or execute it for my life.
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Old 11-21-2011, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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I do know that as you get older your gonna have different music come into your life. Thats a great thing to happen if you think about it because your growth as a musician can move on. As to rock I believe its a youthfull expression and as you grow up and mature it becomes less influential in your life.Doc
I guess you right Doc, I probably lost the feel for rock song :( ...I honestly believed that playing so much rock in the past, that it would be anchered in my brain and runnig through my veins...


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Everything you mentioned sounded right................................except for the "smooth jazz" thing!!! HA!Doc
What's wrong with smooth jazz Doc? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMcV2MO4bmk

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I think it can happen and has happened to me.

Like yourself, played rock for years when starting out (though was raised on jazz music) and all I could really play was rock.

I have to be the worst rock drummer there is at this point and would not dare to even try playing with other players to make it feel right.

I've listened and played jazz now for far too long to make the transition back. I do still enjoy listening to it, just can't play or execute it for my life.
Perhaps is what happen to me, but for me it's a shame, I really believe that I was playing a better rock groove 20 years ago than just a few days ago.

I've always worked hard to be a better musician, I tried as much as possible to play in bands that had better musicians than myself, it was inspiring, challenging and gave me motivation.

Now, how the pro drummers do that? Guys like Simon Phillips, Gregg Bissonette, Vinnie Colaiuta, Matt Chamberlain are "navigating" in various styles with such ease and authenticity, which, of course, includes magnificient rock grooves.

For example, Simon Phillips late work includes a heavy rock album by Michael Schenker and a jazz trio album by Hiromi, these albums are a world appart from each others, but the music is very authentic in both album.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:01 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

You had an impromtu jam with guys you haven't played with in ten years. Why expect it to be textbook perfect? You're all gonna be a bit rusty......not necessarily in your own individual skillsets, but as a group......playing together. It takes time to learn to play with one another again after being apart for so long. Bet the next jam session would be better again.

Not saying that rock doesn't do it for you anymore....maybe it doesn't. But I wouldn't be so hasty to write off a lifetimes experiences because a single jam session with players who have become "unfamilar" due to the passage of time, didn't quite hold up to your memories or expectations.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:10 PM
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"Smooth Jazz" shouldn't have the word Jazz in it, instead it should be called pop crap like it is. It has a warm fuzzy feel and most of the playing is smooooooooth, but as far as I can hear theres no Jazz there. If your rock department needs a boost I'll suggest a loud stereo and playing along with Mitch Mitchell. Not on Foxey Lady junk more along the lines of Axis Bold as Love or some of the live stuff like Hendrix in the West. Playing aliong with Mitch isn't really a rock experience but he mixes jazz with rock better than anyone I can think of and he will make you think & perform. Best drummer in Rock as far I see. Doc
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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You had an impromtu jam with guys you haven't played with in ten years. Why expect it to be textbook perfect? You're all gonna be a bit rusty......not necessarily in your own individual skillsets, but as a group......playing together. It takes time to learn to play with one another again after being apart for so long. Bet the next jam session would be better again.

Not saying that rock doesn't do it for you anymore....maybe it doesn't. But I wouldn't be so hasty to write off a lifetimes experiences because a single jam session with players who have become "unfamilar" due to the passage of time, didn't quite hold up to your memories or expectations.
I know what you're saying Rich Man, I've thought of that myself, but after reflexion, I thought it was unfair, a drummer should be able to play a certain number of "repertoire" of music after 30 years playing. Maybe it wasn't that bad, it only felt not quite right to me, it didn't seemed to affect the others.

As for the Jam, haha, they came from another country, just a few days holyday, so the next jam might be in another 10 years.

And the chances of starting a rock band at my age, doesn't seems quite right! haha...
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:42 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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"Smooth Jazz" shouldn't have the word Jazz in it, instead it should be called pop crap like it is. It has a warm fuzzy feel and most of the playing is smooooooooth, but as far as I can hear theres no Jazz there.
It depends, Doc. In smooth jazz different act have varying amounts of "smooth" and "jazz" in Lee Ritenour and Spyro Gyra had a fair bit of both whereas our old pal Kenny's albums don't have any improv and little harmonic sophistication, ie. it's not jazzed up.


MAD, I started out 100% rock but these days I doubt I'd be much chop if I was to jam with rockers. But if I was at it for a while at least some of it would come back (including getting used to using 5As again). It takes time for people who don't have sticks in their hands 24/7 like Vinnie to immediately adjust to very different genres.
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Old 11-21-2011, 11:44 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Led Zep was a REALLY bad impression of the Howlin Wolf Band...
Ouch! Lol...

FYI, I've recently become obsessed with Bonzo's drumming and vibe/sound in "Fool in the Rain". But haha I admit I also dismissed Bonham in favor of the professor Neil Peart and Rush whilst I was but a lad. He played too slow and Peart was waaay faster, hence Neil was superior :) Wow was I offbase on that one...

Listen to some classic rock masterpieces and you'll get the mojo back I'm certain.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:26 AM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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It depends, Doc. In smooth jazz different act have varying amounts of "smooth" and "jazz" in Lee Ritenour and Spyro Gyra had a fair bit of both whereas our old pal Kenny's albums don't have any improv and little harmonic sophistication, ie. it's not jazzed up.
You're sooo right! i'ts all about recipes, a bit of funk, a touch of jazz, a cloud of soul and all mixed up for a smooth flavour...

I love Joel Rosenblatt's works on Spyro Gyra's albums, great stuff...

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...including getting used to using 5As again....
You right again! Different gear, I used oak sticks back then, along with a 24" kick, 13",14" and 18" toms, 14"x8" snares, that does makes a big difference with what I'm playing now...
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:51 AM
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larryZ; Its all just opinions no matter, when Wolf and Willie took Zep to court for stealing his songs and not paying the gratius Zep paid off big and were guilty of recording his tunes and not giving due credit. That was the fat manager of theirs who made alot of poor decision for those boys, the thief. Wolf was not a man to mess with and he proved that every chance he had.
polly & Mad; Spiro plays in South West Florida often we have a ton of social clubs and 5 star rest, and theres plenty of Tennis clubs and Golf club that have events that usually include live music. I lked what they did years ago buts its very "relaxed" now and missing fire in the playing. Their all very good players no doubt but I think the gigs their doing are effecting them and they mold their songs to that element. Now they could be just being very sly and taking the money and run but I didn't get that impression. We used to have the keyboard player that was with them (forgot his name) at the time (around 1996) come and sit in with my Blues band when I worked the Downtown Jazz & Blues Club at the Renisaunce sp) and he enjoyed the freedom of the Blues. I think that scene atleast in their recording sessions has become "pop like" to the point of timing tunes and allowing so much per cd. Its just abit to contrived for me, thats why I say Jazz doesn't belong in there. Maybe we need to go back to the old spelling for jazz, let the pop crap be Easy Listening Jazz and real jass be Jass. I'm not saying some of the music isn't good it lacks the essence of jazz theres no hint of greatness and theres so little original music there so much is covers. The people that listen to it don't know their covers because they didn't listen to any music except for in the elevator, get it!! HA! Doc
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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polly & Mad; Spiro plays in South West Florida often we have a ton of social clubs and 5 star rest, and theres plenty of Tennis clubs and Golf club that have events that usually include live music. I lked what they did years ago buts its very "relaxed" now and missing fire in the playing.
I wasn't a big fan but I thought Opus d'Opus was a killer track ... although it's pure fusion, not smooth :)
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:04 AM
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That was the fat manager of theirs who made alot of poor decision for those boys, the thief.
Made a shite load of good ones though too.

- Secured biggest advance ever paid to an unsigned band at the time.
- Secured far more artistic control for the artist as opposed to the record company.
- Redefined the way ticket profits were distributed, with far more money back in the artists pockets.

I'd say a hell of a lot more bands than just Led Zeppelin are indebted to his services. There's little doubt he was a game changer. So many more acts would still be crying poor to this day if it hadn't been for him smashing the mold and redefining the boundaries.

I'm gonna suggest his good, far outweighs his bad.
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Old 11-22-2011, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Different gear, I used oak sticks back then, along with a 24" kick, 13",14" and 18" toms, 14"x8" snares, that does makes a big difference with what I'm playing now...
Well, there's a gear element for sure. Big things require big input, & because they're less articulate, a more simple input too, but that's not the crux of the matter.

Because your skill & timbre palate have expanded to include many genres (read = a very good thing), a degree of fascination & value has drifted from your rock roots. Sure, you can execute the mechanics well enough, but that extra bit of pleasure is missing from key areas. It's not a playing thing, that's the easy bit, it's a performance thing, & joy translates to feel translates to performance translates to vibe, then goes full circle back to your enjoyment.

I think you'll find that your playing in that jam was just fine. Just the spark missing, & that's in some part down to your sub-concious devaluation of the material. Anyhow, in that context, groove is a band thing. A drummer performing right in the pocket isn't grooving unless the whole band is in on the vibe.

You're fine. You've just "outgrown" the genre as a player, & therefore the fascination & youthful joy of discovery is absent. That said, this was a one time jam from a cold start. If you played that same material in a gig environment, & with a few under the belt, you'd be right back in that happy space.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:14 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

I'm having issues transitioning from rock/pop beats to country/swing beats, particularly on songs like Crossroads and Come Together. The band leader wants me to graduate from typical driving rock beats to something with a swing to it. The problem is that my interpretation of what he wants is not really what he wants, so it has become very frustrating. He has trouble communicating what he hears in his head, and I struggle to make it sound like what he wants.
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Old 11-22-2011, 05:55 PM
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Your being asked to use a country/swing feel for Creams version of "Crossroads"? Also to use a simular feel in "Come to Together" by the Beatles? Your director sounds like a weird fellow why rewrite someones elses music when theres so many songs out there that feature those elements already. Am I mistaken here? Why not just write a song? Doc
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Old 11-22-2011, 06:21 PM
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I'm having issues transitioning from rock/pop beats to country/swing beats, particularly on songs like Crossroads and Come Together. The band leader wants me to graduate from typical driving rock beats to something with a swing to it. The problem is that my interpretation of what he wants is not really what he wants, so it has become very frustrating. He has trouble communicating what he hears in his head, and I struggle to make it sound like what he wants.
How does feel the pulse of the other players in the band when you rehearse these songs, especially the bass and guitar, do YOU feel the swing in it? If the rest of the band play more or less a copycat of the orinigal versions, what's you leader's asking you won't work, it has to be a "whole" band feel.

Sometimes, a swing feel can be somewhere between a half time shuffle and a straight 16th notes feel, it does swing, but not as much as a shuffle and more than straight 16th notes, if you know what I mean, have you tried that? It might be what your leader want (something with a swing to it).
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

I thought we were talking about rock drumming (hence my post below). What is this swing feel of which you speak? ;)
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Old 11-22-2011, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

Of course you may not be used to the style that was once your "first language" anymore.

But I don't believe you lost it.

What if your sense of groove and time developed, as well as your listening skills?
What if you haven't played rock better years ago, but it just sounded better in your
ears back then?
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:10 PM
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Of course you may not be used to the style that was once your "first language" anymore.

But I don't believe you lost it.

What if your sense of groove and time developed, as well as your listening skills?
What if you haven't played rock better years ago, but it just sounded better in your
ears back then?
Very succinctly put, & in so much more so than my post of the same theme. That mountain air's giving you clarity of thought :)
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

Go "Cubano Africano" its much more fun then rock N country and if you don't no what your doing just hit on the offs and smile!!! Wheres the original OP? Retired? Doc
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Old 11-22-2011, 08:27 PM
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Go "Cubano Africano" its much more fun then rock N country and if you don't no what your doing just hit on the offs and smile!!! Wheres the original OP? Retired? Doc
Sorry guys...

My daughter needed some help... then we had diner... I'll answer the posts in a few minutes
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:18 PM
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Well, there's a gear element for sure. Big things require big input, & because they're less articulate, a more simple input too, but that's not the crux of the matter.
Yes, agree with that Andy, and as you said, it's more than just the drums.

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Because your skill & timbre palate have expanded to include many genres (read = a very good thing), a degree of fascination & value has drifted from your rock roots. Sure, you can execute the mechanics well enough, but that extra bit of pleasure is missing from key areas. It's not a playing thing, that's the easy bit, it's a performance thing, & joy translates to feel translates to performance translates to vibe, then goes full circle back to your enjoyment.
Yes, back then, when doing covers, I had sometimes technical problems with certain patterns, like ghost notes on shuffles for example, I can play these now, no problems as far as "mechanics" are concerned. It is indeed the vibes of what you play that gives you a positive (or negative) feel about your playing, when it's positive it translates to enjoyement, no matter what styles of music being played.

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A drummer performing right in the pocket isn't grooving unless the whole band is in on the vibe.
You're right, is the "band" thats grooving, one off individuals playing very well amongst poor players doesn't make the music sound better, no matter the instruments.


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You're fine. You've just "outgrown" the genre as a player, & therefore the fascination & youthful joy of discovery is absent. That said, this was a one time jam from a cold start. If you played that same material in a gig environment, & with a few under the belt, you'd be right back in that happy space.
Well the discovery factor is long gone as far as rock classics are concerned, but for me the fascination is still there, I'm as much, if not moore, an audiophile freak as well as a drummer, and rock music's still a big part of what I listen, though, I agree that most of my drumming these days is not related to rock, there is of course, a degree of "rock" feel within my playing as I can't denied my influences.

Perhaps you're right, If I was setting my mind, and work the "rock" chops, it would come back, but the thing that annoyed me the other day, is that I thought and believed it was still there.

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I thought we were talking about rock drumming (hence my post below). What is this swing feel of which you speak? ;)
I know is bit of subject, I was just trying to help Inneedofgrace for the "swing feel" required by his band leader, he should start a thread with this question, he would get greater response from members.

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Of course you may not be used to the style that was once your "first language" anymore.

But I don't believe you lost it.

What if your sense of groove and time developed, as well as your listening skills?
What if you haven't played rock better years ago, but it just sounded better in your
ears back then?
Well my listening skills are way much better than 20 years ago that's for sure, and I hope that I developed a good sense of groove and time, I certainly worked hard to try to achieve it.

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Very succinctly put, & in so much more so than my post of the same theme. That mountain air's giving you clarity of thought :)
Yes, Andy, it's much clearer in my mind, and most of these posts were a moutain of fresh air as you so rightly put it.

Thank you DrummerFriends, it means a lot to me...

Cheers
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:48 PM
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Very succinctly put, & in so much more so than my post of the same theme. That mountain air's giving you clarity of thought :)
LOL!! Your post wasn't that bad either! In fact, it sounds much more elaborate than
my few simple words from my simple alpine mind!
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:50 PM
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Well my listening skills are way much better than 20 years ago that's for sure, and I hope that I developed a good sense of groove and time, I certainly worked hard to try to achieve it.
So you have the potential to actually outplay the 20-years-ago-you
instead of playing worse rock than back then! :)
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:57 PM
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Ouch! Lol...

FYI, I've recently become obsessed with Bonzo's drumming and vibe/sound in "Fool in the Rain". But haha I admit I also dismissed Bonham in favor of the professor Neil Peart and Rush whilst I was but a lad. He played too slow and Peart was waaay faster, hence Neil was superior :) Wow was I offbase on that one...
Actually you were right on base. :) If all you hear is a speed difference, then you might want to go back and have another listen. One of the things the Led Zeppelin Experience reaffirmed for me was that Bonham wasn't doing anything too special.
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Old 11-22-2011, 09:58 PM
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I sure hope I never get too mature and old and stop liking Rock Music.
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
Actually you were right on base. :)
Of course I had no intention of dissing Peart, who is still incredible. My comment was just that my opinion on Bonham, when I was younger, was uneducated.

Calm down, Sticks! :)
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  #29  
Old 11-22-2011, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
So you have the potential to actually outplay the 20-years-ago-you
instead of playing worse rock than back then! :)
That's the theory at least, I realised that the vibes of what you play instantly gives a feel of your playing, good or bad, when it's bad you'll try to put it behind, but when it's good you want to remember for as long as possible... and reproduce it the next day and the next....

20 - 25 years ago, my "rock" drumming certainly gave me loads of "good feelings" while playing, so they stick to the brain for a long time, having not play in a rock band for all these years, my only comparaison was to go back to these "goods feelings" to evaluate my own playing the other day, but without the shadow of a doubt I am a better drummer today than back then.

BTW, Where you're from in Switzerland?
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Old 11-22-2011, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Originally Posted by sticks4drums View Post
I sure hope I never get too mature and old and stop liking Rock Music.
Paul Simon from "Simon & Gartfunkel" said once, "the music you liked when you were 16 or 17 years old will sticks for the rest of your life"...

So Sticks? What did you listen when you were 16.

I was listening to the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath... I still like these bands today!
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
ghost notes on shuffles for example, I can play these now
Damn your superior playing!!!! ;) ;) I've now lost all sympathy for your predicament. If I hadn't taken 20 years out of the game, I'd be biting at yer ass right now!

note: usual delusion caveats apply
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Old 11-22-2011, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

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Damn your superior playing!!!! ;) ;) I've now lost all sympathy for your predicament. If I hadn't taken 20 years out of the game, I'd be biting at yer ass right now!

note: usual delusion caveats apply
Don't be too hard on yourself Andy, I know you can kick butts, I saw you playing "Sunshine Of Your Love".... :-))
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Old 11-23-2011, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Have I lost the feel for rock groove?

It COULD be...

That you've grown and you hear more and instead of just listening to yourself, you're hearing everything as a whole. And the truth of the matter is, most jams suck.

The best rock bands are really, really rehearsed, even if they don't sound like it.
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