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  #1  
Old 07-08-2011, 05:19 PM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Dynamic for overhead

Normally I like to use a condenser for overhead drum miking. The one band I'm in...it's his PA and for some reason he doesn't like to use phantom power. So my question..
What's a good dynamic mic that can capture the glassiness of my bronze?
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

I have used the trusty SM 57 for this and so has Zambizzi. We were both impressed with the very good performance of the 57 as an overhead.
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Hmmm, good question, I've only ever seen condenser mics as OH. You might as well just search dynamic mics by their specs, whichever has the most extended range should capture the cymbal harmonics best.

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Old 07-08-2011, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

If you have the budget, a Sennheisser MD441 would do you well. They are expensive, mind.
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:34 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

What's the issue with phantom powered mics in the PA?
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  #6  
Old 07-08-2011, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
What's the issue with phantom powered mics in the PA?
Unless you're running ribbons, they really isn't one. The mixer could be very, very old and not be capable of phantom power.
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Old 07-08-2011, 05:42 PM
jon e rotten jon e rotten is offline
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

I've used two 57's on boom stands before and thought it worked pretty well.
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Old 07-08-2011, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Last night Derrek Roddy used a single 58 for an overhead.

It worked rather well for that particular room.
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  #9  
Old 07-08-2011, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

As said, SM57's or 58s will do in this situation. And really, in my experience, it's not so much that the OH has to be a condenser, what you're plugging it into has to be able to make it sound good. So if you take a somewhat crappy dynamic mic and plug it into an even crappier board, guess what comes out? On the other hand, I've used Shure SM57s and plugged them into (at minimum) a Yamaha O1v digital console and with some careful EQ-ing, made it sound great. It's not so much the tools as it is the operator.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:06 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Yup, SM57s and 58s work surprisingly well. Very punchy drum sound, actually.
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Old 07-08-2011, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

I found the SM57 to be quite punchy as an overhead and give quite a sweet-sounding essence to the drums. Compared to a condensor though it doesn't capture the warmth-ness and subtlety of the kit.
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  #12  
Old 07-09-2011, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
What's the issue with phantom powered mics in the PA?
That's a good question. I have a 50-watt 10-inch keyboard amp that has a mic plug but no phantom power - it can only use dynamic mics. Other than that, it is pretty rare to come across a mic plug that doesn't have phantom power. Every mixer I have ever seen has it. I don't know what the hangup is with the sound guy.

Maybe the OP should ask what the deal is.
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  #13  
Old 07-09-2011, 02:50 AM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Sennheiser 421s are pretty good as OHs. They even have a built-in high pass filter. Pricey, though, and their mic clips are so bad, I have yet to see one that doesn't need tape to stay in place.
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  #14  
Old 07-09-2011, 06:04 AM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

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Sennheiser 421s are pretty good as OHs. They even have a built-in high pass filter. Pricey, though, and their mic clips are so bad, I have yet to see one that doesn't need tape to stay in place.
I have five that don't need tape, yet. Yes both the MD421 and MD 441 have plastic mounting clips that have much to be desired.

There are many different kinds of after market 48 volt adapters that can be placed between a phantom powered microphone and a mixing console that is shy of that feature. I have quit a few single and dual channel units made by Stewart and Symetrix that I carry with me just in case the console I'm using doesn't have this feature or it's not working properly.

I always say that most any microphone can be used for just about any purpose, some are just a bit more specialized for certain situations. If I had record something on a desert island and I was only able to choose just one microphone to capture many different sources of sound, it would be a Shure SM57. They're very rugged, fairly inexpensive, don't need phantom power, nice tight cardioid polar pattern and good frequency response, 40 to 15,000 cycles.

BTW, I too would choose a Sennheiser MD441 as a dynamic microphone for an overhead because of it's sheer transparency. For a dynamic microphone it has a frequency response of about 30 to 20,000 cycles. It is a bit more weighty than some of the more frequently seen condenser mics. I sometimes use one on my snare's resonant head.

Dennis
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  #15  
Old 07-09-2011, 07:27 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
What's the issue with phantom powered mics in the PA?
This one outfit I'm in, a trio, The Don Evans Band, has the best musicians I personally know. I am so completely thrilled they want me to play with them. The leader is a musician who has worked with some heavy names in the industry, including Eric Burdon, Steven Stills, Dave Mason, he was even credited on Billy Joel's "Cold Spring Harbor" album and also toured w/ Billy. He's engineered recordings for Toad the Wet Sprocket and many others. So he's a heavy hitter and definitely acts the part, but he can back it up, so it's all good.

We had an outdoor show last week and I asked if he wouldn't mind if I miced the drums. He expressed negativity about my condenser mic after it popped in the speakers, (his doing) and said, "that's why I don't like phantom power". I realize the pop could have been avoided, and he knows to mute the speakers, but forgot because he never uses condensers live.

Anyway this guy is the type of guy that talks in hints. He is also clearly in charge of EVERYTHING. There's a major sense of pecking order with him, but he can do whatever he wants because in my book he's such an advanced player and can do no wrong with me. So the hint was, no condensers. You don't have to tell me twice.

I may go for the Sennheiser, but in the meantime, since a 57 is popular w/ guys in the know here, I'll use my Audix I5. (the capsule is not fragile like a 57, one stick hit on a 57 capsule and it's gone) The I5 and the 57 are pretty comparable soundwise. I don't mic my drums that much with him so it's not a big deal.

I knew the 57's and 58's would work, but IMO they don't capture the glassiness of the cymbals like a condenser does. I don't have control of the PA, and won't even request anything whatsoever so EQing the 57 is out of the question. He is a sound engineer and asking for anything PA wise is not a good idea with him. He's very territorial there, and that's OK w/ me as long as he keeps asking me to do gigs w/ him.

I'll A/B the Sennheisers against the 57's at GC sometime soon.
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  #16  
Old 07-09-2011, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

The frequency plot for the Sennheisser's reads like a condenser. It has two modes, the 'bright' mode being that mode. I still don't quite understand the issue with phantom power or using condensers live, but if that's what he says that's fine. Good luck with everything, Larry!
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  #17  
Old 07-09-2011, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

I don't understand his problem w/ condensers either, but am I gonna debate the point? Not on your life.

It's amazing...I am the happiest I've ever been in my whole life and I'm pretty sure that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I am playing with people I've always dreamed about playing with.
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  #18  
Old 07-09-2011, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Hey Larry, what if you just got your own nice condenser, and get an additional phantom power box for it (I got a cheap Nady one for $20). You set the mic up, and just give the audio guy an xlr cable to his board? Done.
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Old 07-09-2011, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I don't understand his problem w/ condensers either, but am I gonna debate the point? Not on your life.

It's amazing...I am the happiest I've ever been in my whole life and I'm pretty sure that a lot of it has to do with the fact that I am playing with people I've always dreamed about playing with.
No point debating it, agreed. I would only be debating it if you were a professional sound engineer with a lot of balls - I know how stubborn people can be with these kinds of things. If it sounds good to him, it's best just to keep very quiet and get on with it. I'm glad you've found a gig you enjoy though! It's not easy to get these kinds of gigs. Good times, Larry!
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Old 07-09-2011, 08:49 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
Hey Larry, what if you just got your own nice condenser, and get an additional phantom power box for it (I got a cheap Nady one for $20). You set the mic up, and just give the audio guy an xlr cable to his board? Done.
I didn't know about this. How can I plug it in, without having the mains pop? (Get it plugged in before power up, but what if the PA is turned on before I get it plugged in?) I don't want to have to ask to mute the speakers if I don't have to, I don't want to ask anything from him.
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  #21  
Old 07-09-2011, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I didn't know about this. How can I plug it in, without having the mains pop? (Get it plugged in before power up, but what if the PA is turned on before I get it plugged in?) I don't want to have to ask to mute the speakers if I don't have to, I don't want to ask anything from him.
Hmm. Yeah, I suppose that would be tough. Nevermind.
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  #22  
Old 07-09-2011, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

I'll just get the Sennheiser and put it on bright mode, everybody's happy. I knew I could get an informed answer here.
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  #23  
Old 07-09-2011, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I didn't know about this. How can I plug it in, without having the mains pop? (Get it plugged in before power up, but what if the PA is turned on before I get it plugged in?) I don't want to have to ask to mute the speakers if I don't have to, I don't want to ask anything from him.
This isn't going to prevent the pop issue. What could work is buying your own external pre (which is just a plain good investment all the way around), let the pre provide the phantom power and run a line-in connection from there to the board. You now control the power sequence and you also control the quality of your own sound by not relying on the quality of whatever board preamps you might encounter. Admittedly, this will not be the cheapest option.

But you don't have to mute the damned speakers either. Just mute the channel you are plugging into. All this fuss and compromise over the press of a single button that you could handle yourself. Band drama... don't miss that one bit.
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  #24  
Old 07-09-2011, 11:13 PM
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Band drama... don't miss that one bit.
That's why I'm always the leader and writing the checks!
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  #25  
Old 07-10-2011, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

It's not band drama at all really. Just working around a territorial person. Believe me he is worth it. I have no problems with him.
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Dynamic for overhead

i totally agree with brundlefly about getting an external pre. especially if you are ever recording. great investment.
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