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  #121  
Old 07-03-2010, 03:46 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

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Originally Posted by Michael McDanial View Post
Yes, I understand that some people treat their opinions as fact, but I don't like to judge the many on the actions of a few. Just because some people act that way doesn't mean that everybody who voices an opinion should be treated as though they're acting that way.

Can't we enjoy the music AND have friendly discussions/debates? I don't see why it isn't possible to do both. I've done it countless times with friends, fellow musicians, or even people that I met at a party that have an interest in music. I enjoy discussions and debates on music. I've learned a lot from listening to other people's viewpoints on various topics. I feel like we would live in a pretty boring world if everybody just agreed on everything. I also feel like I would have missed out on learning a lot of things if everybody just kept their opinions to themselves. Music debates have really helped me broaden my horizons in music, and I feel like I would have missed out on a lot had I not had these discussions. :)

I think it has fundamentally to do with the ability and necessity to discuss a subject. Well, if we take Monk's view, "talking about music is like dancing about architecture" But in order to discuss any subject, you need to socialize it. There needs to be a as James says a consensus. That consensus comes from respecting other people's viewpoints.

I don't think that works when you say well . Meg is not as good as Art. I think it works when you have an understanding of why people enjoy Meg and why people enjoy Art. Then you can share insights and ideas, which is really the thing that matters as a learning experience.

Some people don't seem to have those skills of socialization. In other words, they say, "if I think this, it doesn't matter what any one else thinks, or says. My view is always right for me." If that is ones attitude, then one is a closed box. That person cannot enter into the consensus of why Buddy or Tony or Elvin or Bonham or Ringo are so respected as drummers because that understanding comes from listening to others.
  #122  
Old 07-03-2010, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
I think it has fundamentally to do with the ability and necessity to discuss a subject. Well, if we take Monk's view, "talking about music is like dancing about architecture" But in order to discuss any subject, you need to socialize it. There needs to be a as James says a consensus. That consensus comes from respecting other people's viewpoints.

I don't think that works when you say well . Meg is not as good as Art. I think it works when you have an understanding of why people enjoy Meg and why people enjoy Art. Then you can share insights and ideas, which is really the thing that matters as a learning experience.
Well said, Ken. Some people give me the impression that they think I'm clueless and/or perverse for always defending Meg against the regular brickbats she receives here. They just see this attractive woman with an awkward-looking playing style, who plays more simply than any other well-known drummer and then they dismiss her as a beginner who got lucky.

Maybe so, but it tickles me pink to see such an unlikely drummer succeed. When I watch her play, her seeming lack of control gives me the feeling that she could mess up at any moment, yet - almost miraculously - she keeps it happening. It's almost like watching a trapeze artist :) also find it fascinating how effective such simplicity can be. According to my pre-Meg drumming world it shouldn't be possible - music needs more creative input from the drummer! That's what I used to think but, as is the way with formulas, they don't apply across the board.

So I wonder why it works. The glib answer is "Jack" ... but as you suggest, glibness doesn't promote learning. Firstly, I find there is clarity to the WS music - the simplicity / space makes it sound tidy and clean. Secondly, even if nothing of interest is going on drum-wise she has a great rock sound - and sonics matter a LOT. Thirdly, yes, Jack is talented so her simplicity draws attention away from herself and to Jack. Yet the extra energy and oomph of the drums makes the music more compelling than if Jack performed solo.

There's no way I could play like Meg and stay sane, but that's a few good things to tuck away for future reference.

Why do I like Art? First, he exudes great energy. Like Meg, he often plays simply (as compared to peers) and that gives the music a clean sound which provides the soloists with a clear, reliable and swinging base. Yet the soloist is not left high and dry - Art's still responding to the dynamics and adding other subtle nuances while giving the general impression that he's playing an ostinato.

Also, like Meg, he has a great sound - snare and cymbals are very tasty. He plays with taste and style, putting the right sounds in the right spots. Great choices. Then there are the roaring crush rolls - beautiful, crisp and dynamic. And of course, when he decides to go nuts he's exciting.

No need to compare the two drummers at all. As you say, it's far more interesting and enlightening to keep our ears, eyes and minds open.
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  #123  
Old 07-03-2010, 05:18 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

"talking about music is like dancing about architecture"

I always find that quite a bit odd (I see it attributed to just about everyone, I'm confused as to the source) and I think has something to say about it's interpretation.

Usually, I see it used to highlight a futility of talking about music. Funny thing is, the analogy - dancing and architecture seem extremely compatible to me -- they both largely deal with how humans relate to spaces.
  #124  
Old 07-03-2010, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

While it may be about guitarists rather than drummers, much of this documentary is relevant to this thread. Based on folks' posts in this and other threads I can already predict some reactions. For anyone who hasn't seen it, I highly recommend it. I've seen it at least seven times and it gets a lot of smiles and wows out of me every time. Buy it, rent it, Netflix it, whatever you gotta do, just watch it.

It Might Get Loud
  #125  
Old 07-03-2010, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

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Originally Posted by drummer-ish View Post
"talking about music is like dancing about architecture"

I always find that quite a bit odd (I see it attributed to just about everyone, I'm confused as to the source) and I think has something to say about it's interpretation.

Usually, I see it used to highlight a futility of talking about music. Funny thing is, the analogy - dancing and architecture seem extremely compatible to me -- they both largely deal with how humans relate to spaces.
I feel the same way. Dancing and architecture both have to do with form. I am sure someone has written a book "The Architecture of Dance."

I was using the quote as you suggest, and that is, we can say that talking about music is futile. Than let's close down the forum. Let's close down all the conservatories while you're at it. Never write a book about it. Never discuss is it in polite circles, along with sex, politics and religion, keep it discreet.

When you are discussing music, you are socializing the phenomenon. You are discussing the discussion about music and making it interactive through words. Any discussion about any subject is solely a discussion about the discussion of the phenomenon. In that sense, it is constituted in words. But we as human beings are creatures of language.

This is the oldest of philosophical dilemmas. Plato suggested that mathematics was a purer matter of discussion because it was not as figurative as language. Kant suggested that we never arrive at what constitutes the thing-ness in itself. The words always get in the way. Sounds like a cliched line from a love song.

I think we can all appreciate that music, like sex, its best left to the experience. But we spend so much time talking about both.
  #126  
Old 07-03-2010, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

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Originally Posted by JPW View Post
Haha, good point, why didn't you bring this up earlier? =P
Well, the whole thing about consensus as a judgement seemed nuts to me. And although Larry merely wanted to discuss it, the guy who jacked it up originally, said either this or a variation of this over two threads and was very sure of himself all the times he said it.
Originally Posted by motojt
What to do then? Context and consensus.


I just wanted him to know how by employing his own logic he was trying to intellectually downsize one the one of the greatest rising drum stars of the universe in a discussion about musicality based greatness.

It seemed only fair.

Of course that was 2008. I still haven't found out yet if consensus has made me amazingly great this year.

And Larry don't worry about people not liking each other. That existed before this thread and will always be the case on Internet discussions where you throw a bunch of strangers of various background and temperaments into cyber space for an esoterical discussion.

Besides a lot of the same people would get along just fine in a face to face discussion or simply ignore each other entirely. Personally when people start out a conversation with phrases like Oh Really? and Now you're getting it I am not so inclined to see his/her subsequent points favorably because I start to feel that maybe it's a last word browbeat issue and not a discussion issue, from a guy who's a little too used to having his way. It's also longstanding Internet decorum to not let that stand for too long because after a while your silence simply enables that behavior. If a person starts out a conversation with you as an equal and not like he's talking to the chicken in that Hangover movie, then we're always capable of putting something together.
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  #127  
Old 07-03-2010, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

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Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
I just wanted him to know how by employing his own logic he was trying to intellectually downsize one the one of the greatest rising drum stars of the universe in a discussion about musicality based greatness.
No he wasn't, he was trying to teach a stubborn old man the difference between fact and opinion. Apparently you're just too insecure to get out of your own little world or pick up a dictionary. Feel free to go back to playing He Said, She Said whilst hiding behind your ignore list. :p

Last edited by motojt; 07-03-2010 at 11:43 PM.
  #128  
Old 07-04-2010, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

Forum break observation folks..... P.S. all forums by the way...nothing personal other than my personal choice.

Does anyboby have the actual time to go out and play and listen to music anymore?...do they period? Just asking. Shut the damn computer off and get out into the real world and enjoy whatever music you dig both as a player or listener. If you are a player compose a tune, play with new people, make some music, study something new and challenging etc...et...etc....

What a HUGE waste of energy all this disharmony is I just looked over...just saying.

Playing music with other folks or going out and hearing some nice music is MUCH more satisfying and soothing on the soul in my view over relentless endless internet debates and personal insults sitting in front of a computer. That time could be MUCH more constructive and POSITIVE if put to use in real life situations.

Keep the role of the judge for the courtroom too by the way.

Just saying...carry on.....
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  #129  
Old 07-04-2010, 01:07 AM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

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Originally Posted by Steamer View Post
Does anyboby have the actual time to go out and play and listen to music anymore?...do they period? Just asking. Shut the damn computer off and get out into the real world and enjoy whatever music you dig both as a player or listener. If you are a player compose a tune, play with new people, make some music, study something new and challenging etc...et...etc....

What a HUGE waste of energy all this disharmony is I just looked over...just saying.

Playing music with other folks or going out and hearing some nice music is MUCH more satisfying and soothing on the soul in my view over relentless endless internet debates and personal insults sitting in front of a computer. That time could be MUCH more constructive and POSITIVE if put to use in real life situations.
Man I have to agree with Stan here. All this theoretical philosophizing leads to a pile-up of misunderstandings, it seems to me. For the life of me I don't know what the topic at issue is here, but I do see that none of it is about you or me playing music.

There was one really creepy post made a few posts back that practically stunned me with its sneering cynicism and self-aggrandizement. This, I thought to myself, is crossing the line into toxicity.

Stan is right. Keep the role of the judge for the courtroom. Or for the guy who hires you to play the drums!
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  #130  
Old 07-04-2010, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: Judging musicality

Yes I'm almost ashamed of starting this thread. Therefore I'm locking it. Sorry for the misguided thought process.
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