DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #81  
Old 07-02-2010, 02:04 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Judging musicality

A little respect and tolerance wouldn't go astray.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
  #82  
Old 07-02-2010, 02:22 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,681
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
I really don't think he meant anything by it. We're just kinda having a food fight right now. While it does sound a lot more fun, we don't need to upgrade to rocks just yet. ;)

In a pathetic attempt to lighten the mood, I think it's cool as shit that you studied with Joe Morello. I always thought he seemed like a really cool, down to earth, dude-type dude. I got his two videos and the thing that resonated most with me was his advice to have fun with it and not take it all too seriously. I've never made a fuss about any other human, and I'd never be bothered to ask for an autograph or kiss some celebrity's ass. That said, Joe Morello is the only celebrity type person I've ever bent that rule for. I sent him an email a while back just to tell him that his playing, and eventually his videos forever changed the way I looked at the drums and wished him well. The funny thing is that up to then I didn't even know who he was. I just knew that his work on Take Five was and still is one of my two favorite drum tracks of all time (the other being Eric Kretz's work on Big Empty by Stone Temple Pilots. Yes, I know, I'm weird). By the way, I'll bet you $5 he'd get a kick out of the sex tape comment. hahahaha

Everybody has their right not to like someone. He doesn't like Joe. I've never liked him. I would gather that he feels the same way about me from his answer to my posts. We agree on something.

This argument plays its way out here in various shapes and forms. There is a political element to it, who get to have an opinion and whose is most valid. Some people need to iron that out from time to time. I've said all I really want to say about the subject before and when people have studied graduate level philosophy and aesthetics classes, I'll listen to their opinion on the subject. Sounds arrogant; but isn't that with the question is about? lol

But I will say this. Of course, we all have personal music that we like. That taste is qualified by race, gender, ethnicity, class, education, level, upbringing and a whole host of personal traits. It's this latter part of the question that is more interesting to me.
  #83  
Old 07-02-2010, 03:34 PM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,681
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPW View Post
First of all, you clearly have no idea what I was talking about if you think my 'cluster theory' is just a synonym for consensus. So no, you don't "understand it fully".


PS. if everything about music is subjective, then explain me the pentatonic scale and why is it so widely used. =P All human beings have much more in common than what we would like to have. Music is such a fundamental thing for this thinking ape that it pierces through cultures. Even gorillas communicate via drumming. They have different rhythms for different 'words' like 'hello' or 'go away'.
Interesting bit about the apes. I don't think your theory is really lost. To make it more basic, there is a level of excellence that the great chess player has achieved that allows for his or her ability to be demonstrated.

Music is a bit more subjective than that. My point about the popularity of consensus was an ironic twist to the reality of popularity as being the divining rod for even the most obscure reference. The question is popular among whom.

It's a little different with a symphony than popular music. You have to have consensus when you have 80 people playing a piece and 5,000 people coming to listen to it. And each depends on the other. If you are playing punk rock and you have three players who can charge 5 bucks. when forty people show up, and the band gets the door, you end up with 65 bucks a head. If they're happy with that, all is well.

Ultimately, as you stated, it is the value of the opinion. I've said this before, but as a teacher, I need to be given the benefit of the doubt that my opinion is worthwhile otherwise why come to me. If all opinions were equal, there would be no need to have a teacher. I could go to the teenager down the street and ask him about drumming and would get an equal answer to that of Freddie Gruber or Joe Morello. You either see that is not the case or you don't. You either value learned, experienced opinion or you don't. And if someone does not, then I wouldn't waste my time on them.

Last edited by Deltadrummer; 07-03-2010 at 04:23 AM.
  #84  
Old 07-02-2010, 04:02 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Judging musicality

I have never felt comfortable with this topic, whereas normally I enjoy a thread with a bit of lyrical waxing :)

I think the reason is that it all seems so bloody pointless. Why bother judging the musicality of a drummer? I'd rather just enjoy the music. Some music I enjoy in a "muso way" ... music that rewards a bit of digging. I enjoy some songs in the same way as a teenybopper - something in it just grabs me.

One thing I never do is rank, apart from the stray bit of hyperbolic static that I indulge in when listening to a great player - "Wow, that's the best thing I ever heard!".

There are hundreds of "the best things I've ever heard" ... at the moment it's Brian Blade, a while ago it was Chris Cutler, before that it was probably Art, before that maybe Papa Jo, or maybe Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford, Benny Greb, Will Calhoun, Art Ensemble, Damon Che, Herlin Riley, Tony Allen, Steve Jordan/Gadd, Pretty Purdie, Airto, Robert Wyatt, even good old Ringo:)

Then I think of all those groups with drummers who are not technically strong but the group puts in performances that are far greater than the sum of their parts ... Floyd, Beatles, Stones, White Stripes, Talking Heads ... maybe if one of these band had a better drummer it wouldn't be the same? Each drummer brings a different personality, different ideas, preferences, listening history, life situation, personal history ... and so on to the table. If it works, it works.

I think you could put together an objective hierarchy if you wanted to, but it so doesn't matter to me. We like what we like and in the way we like to like things. Do I hear the ghost of Rummy? ...
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
  #85  
Old 07-02-2010, 07:48 PM
jazzin''s Avatar
jazzin' jazzin' is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 745
Default Re: Judging musicality

I think many people are confusing better drummer with better album? If you took away all the music that went with said drumming, can you still say who is or is not better?

When we say Meg White is as good as Buddy or whatever, we are not thinking of her playing as a drummer. We are thinking of her in the whole context of a song, which means we are also taking into account the guitar parts, the vocals etc.

The fact is though that if you honestly believe that there is no better or worse, and opinion is fact you are misconstruing a great deal and missing a massive piece of the puzzle. If there is no better or worse, there is no right or wrong. Is opinion fact? If you think yes, then you are simply daft.

Everything in our world is based on an absolute truth and reality. There are a million and one opinions about it, but it exists. We exist. It is many peoples opinion that we don't exist.

It is hard to quantify is some small respect a musician being better or not. In another it is very, very, very easy and there does exist an absolute truth to it. Anyone that thinks the opposite is being massively hypocritical of his/her own thoughts over the years and arguing for the sake of it. Stop being ridiculous and get with it. There are better and worse musicians, you know it, we all know it. You've thought it and we've all thought it.

Although taking it to the extreme can seem silly, it is still right. It just shows up the point in greater detail. It magnifies it. If you can say or agree that an amateur drummer is not as good a musician as Brian Blade then you have answered the question. There does exist such a thing as a better and worse musician/drummer.
  #86  
Old 07-02-2010, 08:14 PM
jazzin''s Avatar
jazzin' jazzin' is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 745
Default Re: Judging musicality

Everyone answer this question with a yes or no answer: We are all drummers here of varying skill, experience, age etc etc etc.

Is Brian Blade a better drummer/musician than this kid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT-vd8cqgSA

According to whoever posted this video, Brian Blade doesn't even enter the equation and she wouldn't think he was better anyway.

Just answer it, yes or no: Is Brian Blade a better drummer than this guy in the above vid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VdtC9WhnCg

This is a Blade video above for you to compare and honestly if you still think it's only opinion who is better...well, you're beyond help.

Here is something 'simple' in terms of drumming that may help too if you just thinking I was throwing out some wild solo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e255MtrXG7g
  #87  
Old 07-02-2010, 08:47 PM
motojt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Judging musicality

@JPW, I'm not trying to shoot down your or anyone else's analogies as a whole. I'm just pointing out problems in the parts that I think are relevant. I can do the same with my own. In the red vs blue analogy, there's no human input. It's too simple as it's just a set of colors. The point of it though, is that better in that case is 100% opinion until you apply criteria like, "Which color is better to represent water?" Or, "Which is better for painting fire?"

As for the cluster theory, yes, I just needed more information. As I said, your initial posts on it didn't really elaborate. The way you explain it now, in this context it sounds more like opinions based on personal experience over time. As in, "Based on what I have know should I do this or that." Is that about right? As for your further explanation of the Go analogy, I get it now. A better drummer for a given situation goes back to what some of us have been saying all along. It's relative or contextual. Based on the criteria of this given situation you can choose a better option. So better becomes a container for just those criteria for just that time. But that doesn't mean better then will always be better right? Just like my color analogy.

About your courtroom guilty verdict and "everyone still knows it's obvious," there exists decades of examples where innocent people were found guilty.

Finally, I'm getting tired of the straw man. Either quote where I said everything in music is subjective or give up that defense. It's getting old.

@Matt, your words carry no weight if you can't address the counter arguments. Putting someone on ignore to avoid the hard questions is just sad.

@Jazzin', like I said in the "Denial" thread, no one is saying there is no better or worse. No one. None. Zero people. One person, minus one person. The exact opposite of some people. Nil. That's just some sad straw man that Matt introduced to the world in another thread. We're saying, "Define better." Who was it who said in that other thread how they hate it when people jump into a thread without reading all the previous posts? :p

@Polly, you and I have a problem, sister. I didn't see Eric Kretz on your quick list. ;)
  #88  
Old 07-02-2010, 08:57 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
"Define better."
But you see, you can also ask a go player or surgeon "define a better move". Go player will propably say "the move which most propably will get me closer to winning the whole game", surgeon will say "the move that will make it most likely for the patient to survive with the least damage to his body". With drummer it could be "the drummer that most likely will get the current job done". So with White Stripes Meg was enough to get the job done and it was an interesting and new move to make, so many people enjoyed seeing it. But Vinnie and many others would have also have done the same job and many more, so overall Vinnie is the better move to make, even in that situation.

It's the same with go. I have played with much much better opponents with insane amounts of handicap and they still win. They aren't making the same moves with me as they would with equal opponents, they are experimenting and verifying what those 'lesser moves' were all about. Study them. Same thing with Meg.
  #89  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:06 PM
motojt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Judging musicality

@JPW, good point. First let me point out that Jack White actually said, "Meg was the best drummer for The White Stripes." For their sound and style she was the best. She didn't have to ponder twenty years of jazz drumming experience or agonize for days weighing the options of polyrhythms and straight beats. She just sat down and played what came out. So when you say, "Best for the job," we are in full agreement because that's another way of saying what I've been saying all along: It depends.

Now if by the second half of that paragraph you are implying that tallying up their jobs, so to speak, would then eventually calculate the better or best drummers, well that's where we'd disagree. Is there always a best move to make in all situations of a game of Go? I know that castling isn't always the best move in Chess. ;)

Last edited by motojt; 07-02-2010 at 09:16 PM.
  #90  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:24 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
Now if by the second half of that paragraph you are implying that tallying up their jobs, so to speak, would then eventually calculate the better or best drummers, well that's where we'd disagree. Is there always a best move to make in all situations of a game of Go? I know that castling isn't always the best move in Chess. ;)
Of course there are situations, especially when there's limited time, when two or more moves are equal. In go there are always lots of one point moves anyways in the end game, but professional games rarely are played on that level, the losing player usually knows he's going to lose in those games quite early. Anyways, my point was that, sometimes those players want to test those worse moves with lesser opponents just for the heck of it. I don't know if Jack could have gotten any other drummer but assuming he could have he just made an artistic choice to do something different (than most people would have done) this time. The vision he had for the band and his music was such that getting Vinnie (assuming he could have hired him, which I doubt), would have been like using a sledge hammer or nuclear bomb to hit a small nail. =P

But that still doesn't mean it's all subjective. The less you know, in the go context or in the drumming context the more you think it's all subjective but it's just an illusion.

BTW, be carefull hiding behind those straw men. Sometimes people just interpret what you are saying differently than what you meant to say. That doesn't mean it's a vicious attack of the straw men.
  #91  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:27 PM
Swiss Matthias's Avatar
Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 3,185
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
@Jazzin', like I said in the "Denial" thread, no one is saying there is no better or worse. No one. None. Zero people. One person, minus one person. The exact opposite of some people. Nil.
Yes there are some. 202020
  #92  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:40 PM
motojt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Judging musicality

@JPW, so it sounds like what you're saying is the more situations in which a given move is the best, the better overall that move is. Isn't that a little too much like saying the more gigs a drummer has played and the more styles they know, the better they are overall? That limits it to the technical and consensus again. The consensus being the opinion of the person who chose them for each gig. I can agree with the second part, the more styles the better, but not the first.

@Matthias, who? I admit I could be wrong, but taken in context I don't think anyone is really saying that.

PS: @JPW, I think what Jack was saying was that someone like Vinnie or Buddy would be terrible for the Stripes. Not too good for the job, but not good at all. Think of it this way: Vinnie can't unlearn what he's learned. He can never free himself of all the influences of experience and other styles. He can "play down," but he will still be "tainted." Since Meg was new to playing she was pure. He likened her to a child. Playing what was in her heart, not her head. See, purity can be a good thing too. ;)

Last edited by motojt; 07-02-2010 at 09:51 PM.
  #93  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:55 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,425
Default Re: Judging musicality

This whole thread is similar to the "letter from the editor" in the newest Modern Drummer.

When Nirvanan 1st broke, there was a bit of a back lash in the musician community who disliked the bands minimal approach. When Dave Grohl was featured in Modern Drummer for the first time, the magazine was inundated with letters calling Grohl things along the lines of a "no-talent-hack that brought nothing to the table, and didn't deserve be to mentioned in the magazine."

And now, some 18 years later, nearly every interview with a younger rock drummer says Grohl was a major influence, or the reason so-and-so started playing drums. Grohl has gone on to be a successful songwriter, guitarist, singer and played drums in a variety of different situations. He still may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he's at least earned the respect of the music community at large for being more than a "flavor of the month" as he was once called.

And really, this has happened over and over again in music, in rock, jazz and even classical. When something new comes out, it's often dismissed as not musical, yet 20 to 100 years later many of these same songs/artists/styles are regarded as important piece(s) of work.
  #94  
Old 07-02-2010, 09:58 PM
drummer-ish drummer-ish is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
Default Re: Judging musicality

Woof! certainly a difficult problem in all kinds of ways

The go analogy is interested, but our problem here can differ
go (and chess and other games of that sort) are defined games (there is a mutually agreed upon evaluation of the game's endstate values).
the games themselves are solvable (the nature of the answer is directly quantifiable by well-defined rules of the game itself), but belong to a class of problem called intractable -- the problem is well defined but HUGE (usually by combinatoric explosion) so that we can't, practically speaking, map the entire solution space (interestingly, checkers was cracked not too long ago -- ie the gamespace, at least to conclusion is now mapped).
So, as we play these sorts of games, we run into what's known as a "knowledge horizon" and we have to rely on imperfect evaluation techniques (such as heuristics) to make our 'best guess'

Where we can run into problems is when there is an interpretive element -- Foil, sabre and, likewise Kendo can have these problems. While the scoring is well-defined, weather certain events that validate an increment in score have an interpretive element



tough problem, even in the courts this can be very problematic -- there are at least a couple of competing standards for qualification as expert (Frye / Daubert )

And the "wisdom of Crowds" area of decision theory - that's a whole really messy can of worms and I think will just tend to shift the difference in views up one level of abstraction as opposed to actually resolve it.
  #95  
Old 07-02-2010, 10:15 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
PS: @JPW, I think what Jack was saying was that someone like Vinnie or Buddy would be terrible for the Stripes. Not too good for the job, but not good at all. Think of it this way: Vinnie can't unlearn what he's learned. He can never free himself of all the influences of experience and other styles. He can "play down," but he will still be "tainted." Since Meg was new to playing she was pure. He likened her to a child. Playing what was in her heart, not her head. See, purity can be a good thing too. ;)
Believe what you want, but I label it as wannabe-artistic bullcrap. =P
  #96  
Old 07-02-2010, 10:17 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
@JPW, so it sounds like what you're saying is the more situations in which a given move is the best, the better overall that move is. Isn't that a little too much like saying the more gigs a drummer has played and the more styles they know, the better they are overall? That limits it to the technical and consensus again. The consensus being the opinion of the person who chose them for each gig. I can agree with the second part, the more styles the better, but not the first.
Yes, I value experience, depth of the journey and wide perspective on things. So older people tend to be better in my opinion.
  #97  
Old 07-02-2010, 10:19 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
This whole thread is similar to the "letter from the editor" in the newest Modern Drummer.

When Nirvanan 1st broke, there was a bit of a back lash in the musician community who disliked the bands minimal approach. When Dave Grohl was featured in Modern Drummer for the first time, the magazine was inundated with letters calling Grohl things along the lines of a "no-talent-hack that brought nothing to the table, and didn't deserve be to mentioned in the magazine."

And now, some 18 years later, nearly every interview with a younger rock drummer says Grohl was a major influence, or the reason so-and-so started playing drums. Grohl has gone on to be a successful songwriter, guitarist, singer and played drums in a variety of different situations. He still may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he's at least earned the respect of the music community at large for being more than a "flavor of the month" as he was once called.

And really, this has happened over and over again in music, in rock, jazz and even classical. When something new comes out, it's often dismissed as not musical, yet 20 to 100 years later many of these same songs/artists/styles are regarded as important piece(s) of work.
Liking something is still different to me than being better at something. Liking something may get you started on something but that doesn't make you any more expert on the subject.
  #98  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:16 PM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,438
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Everybody has their right not to like someone. He doesn't like Joe. I've never liked him. I would gather that he feels the same way about me from his answer to my posts.
Just to be clear, I never said that I didn't like Joe. I was talking about what an intangible POV on a Joe/Meg comparison might look like, which is why I used quotations. It was a hypothetical. I happen to like Joe very much, as it turns out, and the fact that you studied with him means very little to me. Sounds more like gratuitous name-dropping on your part. Anyone can throw down the dough to study with [enter famous drummer's name here] when they come through town. Looks good on the resume, doesn't it?

Anyway, this is what I said and how I said it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
... and the intangibles might look like, "You know, there's just something in Meg's mojo (beat placement, playing for the song, staying out of the way, etc...) that trumps Joe's obvious and formidible skills for me. Besides, even when Joe was young, he looked like he was about to fall asleep - at least Meg looks like she's trying..."
But you're absolutely right about one thing: I don't like you. Nor do I respect much of what you say.
  #99  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:25 PM
motojt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPW View Post
Yes, I value experience, depth of the journey and wide perspective on things. So older people tend to be better in my opinion.
Yet almost all of "the greats" did their best, and most respected work when they were young. A bit of a paradox don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPW View Post
Liking something is still different to me than being better at something. Liking something may get you started on something but that doesn't make you any more expert on the subject.
What song is better, Big Empty by Stone Temple Pilots or Limelight by Rush? I say Big Empty because I like the way it sounds. The technical aspect of a song has no bearing on my judgment of goodness. I am an expert on what sounds good to me because I have been me for 34 years. There is no room for debate. Big Empty is the better song.

Sounds stupid right? But there is an artistic side to playing the drums. Deny it, please, and see how many people you instantly piss off. The judgment of art is subjective, therefor a percentage of judging a drummer is subjective. What to do then? Context and consensus.

Last edited by motojt; 07-02-2010 at 11:36 PM.
  #100  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:38 PM
aydee aydee is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,413
Default Re: Judging musicality

Name:  hamster on wheel.jpg
Views: 196
Size:  67.7 KB


......................................
  #101  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:44 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
What song is better, Big Empty by Stone Temple Pilots or Limelight by Rush? I say Big Empty because I like the way it sounds. The technical aspect of a song has no bearing on my judgment of goodness. I am an expert on what sounds good to me because I have been me for 34 years. There is no room for debate. Big Empty is the better song.

Sounds stupid right? But there is an artistic side to playing the drums. Deny it, please, and see how many people you instantly piss off. The judgment of art is subjective, therefor a percentage of judging a drummer is subjective. What to do then? Context and consensus.
Art is art. Drummers are people with less or more experience. Culture doesn't emerge from a void. That's why I think Jack's thoughts about Meg's purity are just PR tactics. There's a really rare few in modern countries that aren't influenced by the culture around them. And even if we found such a person the art he/she would make would most propably be meaningless to us, just alien. We like to feel like someone has had the same experiences as we do, same thoughts or feelings. That's why alien music wouldn't have such a huge market. (Well, maybe it would have market value, but not for the same reasons obviously).

Gahh... I just typed quite a long reply for you but then I realized I was writing the same stuff for the fifth time or something. I think this has become more of an endurance race than anything else. I'd better go reset my brain with some TV show. (I actually enjoy watching 'So you think you can dance' =P)
  #102  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:45 PM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by motojt View Post
Yet almost all of "the greats" did their best, and most respected work when they were young. A bit of a paradox don't you think?
I don't agree with that at all. For example I just recently enjoyed Peter Erskine's Dream Flight album a lot!
  #103  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:53 PM
drummer-ish drummer-ish is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I have never felt comfortable with this topic, whereas normally I enjoy a thread with a bit of lyrical waxing :)
Oh yeah?!?
Well, I've never felt comfortable in a Speed-o mainly BECAUSE of the waxing
  #104  
Old 07-02-2010, 11:53 PM
motojt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPW View Post
Gahh... I just typed quite a long reply for you but then I realized I was writing the same stuff for the fifth time or something.
Totally... Aydee nailed it. We should go beat up Larry. Aw, come on, man! ;)
  #105  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:13 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,124
Default Re: Judging musicality

Beat me to the punch Abe. I'm so sorry for starting this treadmill of a thread.

There's a ton of great points made here from both "sides". All I can say now is that it's obvious that there will never be any resolution to this, because it's a loaded question. It wasn't my intention to start an impossible discussion, but that's what it ended up being. I'm enjoying it, except for the part of people not liking each other, but that happens in internet forums. But we are gaining little ground. I have come to the conclusion that it's wrong to publicly compare one musician to another. Nothing good comes of it.
  #106  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:18 AM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Beat me to the punch Abe. I'm so sorry for starting this treadmill of a thread.

There's a ton of great points made here from both "sides". All I can say now is that it's obvious that there will never be any resolution to this, because it's a loaded question. It wasn't my intention to start an impossible discussion, but that's what it ended up being. I'm enjoying it, except for the part of people not liking each other, but that happens in internet forums. But we are gaining little ground. I have come to the conclusion that it's wrong to publicly compare one musician to another. Nothing good comes of it.
Yes, the best possible thing to do is to refuse to comment on other players abilities and use that time to make yourself a better player. We have all wasted a huge amount of time on this topic and all that time we could have spent on something like rudiments on pad, watching a DVD, transcribing, listening to the actual music or better yet, playing with other people. =P

I'm not sure if we truly got any wiser or better players through this discussion =(

Though, I must say, I enjoy difficult discussions too. Otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum =P
  #107  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:23 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,124
Default Re: Judging musicality

I like difficult subjects too. And this certainly qualifies. It was my stupid hope that we could somehow...Oh nevermind! It's a black hole!
  #108  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:28 AM
motojt
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Judging musicality

So are we gonna beat up Larry or what? Btw, thanks to your "Yelled at" thread, my line for you (Larry) will forever be, "Aw, come on, man!" ;)
  #109  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:32 AM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,124
Default Re: Judging musicality

Bring it on James you big lug. Cmon man!

I wanna see you box Matt actually, you guys are like forces of nature
  #110  
Old 07-03-2010, 12:57 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: Judging musicality

Merriam-Webster:

musicality:

1 : sensitivity to, knowledge of, or talent for music
2 : the quality or state of being musical : melodiousness

So that's one definition, and I always prefer specific definitions of terms over subjective intrepretations.

Going by that definition, then, it's my opinion that all good musicians have musicality. That's what makes them musicians. There are a lot of players who have no sensitivity, knowledge or talent for music, but those are players, not musicians. I'm convinced that there is a difference. Neither one is necessarily better than the other, they're just different.

We need to remember what music is, is what I guess I'm saying.
__________________
Call me J

Last edited by con struct; 07-03-2010 at 01:37 AM.
  #111  
Old 07-03-2010, 01:21 AM
drummer-ish drummer-ish is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 93
Default Re: Judging musicality

Larry corrected/clarified the nature of his question around post #17
  #112  
Old 07-03-2010, 01:34 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Merriam-Webster:

musicility:

1 : sensitivity to, knowledge of, or talent for music
2 : the quality or state of being musical : melodiousness

So that's one definition, and I always prefer specific definitions of terms over subjective intrepretations.

Going by that definition, then, it's my opinion that all good musicians have musicality. That's what makes them musicians. There are a lot of players who have no sensitivity, knowledge or talent for music, but those are players, not musicians. I'm convinced that there is a difference. Neither one is necessarily better than the other, they're just different.

We need to remember what music is, is what I guess I'm saying.
Some would say that the idea of "a musical drummer" is an oxymoron :)
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
  #113  
Old 07-03-2010, 01:41 AM
con struct's Avatar
con struct con struct is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lumpen post-industrial district
Posts: 2,063
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Some would say that the idea of "a musical drummer" is an oxymoron :)
I'll bet you that there are actually bands that don't want a "musical drummer." I'll bet that somewhere some super-technical-death metal band is running a drummer wanted ad that says, "No wussie musical drummers!"
__________________
Call me J
  #114  
Old 07-03-2010, 02:07 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by con struct View Post
I'll bet you that there are actually bands that don't want a "musical drummer." I'll bet that somewhere some super-technical-death metal band is running a drummer wanted ad that says, "No wussie musical drummers!"
Oh, so you're tasteful, hey? Oh wow. Like, dude, I know guys who could play what you're doing with like one hand and one foot. (I think I've just invented a character for a music sitcom).

Compositional sensibility is the refuge of the untalented - a mere excuse for those too lazy to get their hands going so they can effortlessly blaze out those hemidemisemiquavers.

Disclaimer: this straw man was created for entertainment purposes only.

__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 07-03-2010 at 04:07 AM.
  #115  
Old 07-03-2010, 03:03 AM
Michael McDanial Michael McDanial is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Windy City
Posts: 288
Default Re: Judging musicality

Well, I've stated this in a previous post, but I'll say it again. I think too many people think that when it comes to people's opinions "best" always = "favorite". This is not true for me, and many other musicians I know. There are many musicians whose music I don't care for at all, yet if you asked me who I thought was the best at some particular instrument, they would be on my list. As I previously stated in another I don't really care for Jeff Beck's music. He just doesn't do anything for me. Now if you asked me who I thought were the best rock guitarists, he would be in the top five on my list. I don't care for the music of Andres Segovia, however, if you asked me to list who I thought were the best guitarists ever, I'd put him in my top three.

As far as I'm concerned, I like having a friendly debate with others about their opinions on the best this or that. Maybe I'll even end up changing my mind after hearing their side. Maybe they'll end up changing theirs after hearing my side. Maybe we'll just agree to disagree. Either way, I have found that it almost always makes for an interesting discussion.

I have never heard somebody, in a face-to-face conversation, when asked a question of "Who do you think was the best (insert musical instrument or genre)?", reply with "You can't say that! There is no best! How can you ask such a question?!"

I can totally relate to the following quote from the Ginger Baker thread by Average, because I feel the same way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Average View Post
Sometimes I log on here and wonder if I am living/playing in some alternate universe where there actually IS a difference between a 6 year old drummer after his first lesson and a seasoned player with 33 years of experience. Clearly, reality must be wrong.
Like I said, I've never had somebody fly off the handle when asked who they thought was the best at something when asked in person. However, I come on here and somebody does the same thing and they get flamed beyond belief.

Giving an opinion on here in general is enough cause for getting flamed, unless you put a disclaimer beforehand every single time, because people can't tell the difference between a fact and an opinion, something which I was taught in 2nd grade (You know, you look at the sentence and it says "Robins are birds" and you would write "fact" - then you'd get a sentence that would say "Pizza is the best food" and you would write "opinion"). Why is it that suddenly grown adults are not able to make this distinction? Either that, or you just have people who want to be jerks and are just looking for somebody to flame and stating an opinion without a disclaimer is basically open season for them, because without that disclaimer, you're automatically insinuating that your opinion is fact.

I think I'll put it in my signature that if you can't identify the difference between a fact and an opinion then that's your problem, and from now on when I have to deal with one of these jerks who has to twist people's words, or simply wants to flame you because they enjoy flaming people, or most likely, they don't like what you said, so they flame you for it, I'll just point right to my signature :)

I just don't see why so many people can't just chill out and stop getting so upset when somebody states an opinion, and just have a good, healthy debate instead.

That's my 2 cents.

Last edited by Michael McDanial; 07-03-2010 at 09:51 AM.
  #116  
Old 07-03-2010, 03:17 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Judging musicality

For me, this whole topic is impossible to make sense of, let alone resolve and seems to be mostly a good opportunity for people to air their pet theories and gripes.

That's okay too ... as they say, better out than in :)
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
  #117  
Old 07-03-2010, 04:26 AM
Deltadrummer's Avatar
Deltadrummer Deltadrummer is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 2,681
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
For me, this whole topic is impossible to make sense of, let alone resolve and seems to be mostly a good opportunity for people to air their pet theories and gripes.

That's okay too ... as they say, better out than in :)
You're one of those people that manages both sides of the fence quite well. I think most of us do. I like a well mowed lawn; but hate the sound of lawn mowers.

The beautiful thing is we don't have to choose between one side or the other. Well, just for a moment, and that choice is always reversible.

Last edited by Deltadrummer; 07-03-2010 at 04:39 AM.
  #118  
Old 07-03-2010, 10:10 AM
mattsmith's Avatar
mattsmith mattsmith is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Most Everywhere
Posts: 1,915
Default Re: Judging musicality

Whooooa, wait a minute. You know I think I've been seeing this all wrong.

2 years ago I placed third in the Rising Drum Star category of the Drum Magazine Drummies Poll. Look it up folks. There I am. Therefore 2 years ago I was the third best rising drum star in the universe. No ifs ands or buts. The consensus of humanity was me, a guy named Cody Hanson, and some guy from Mars Volta named Pridgen.

Hmmmm, I also have the distinction of being the fastest traditional grip drummer in the universe. Not only do almost half a million say so on youtube, and the official governing body for world records says so, but I also have a machine with an actual number that says I'm faster than every living thing in the universe /but only traditional grip of course/ because the overall distiction for all time drum speed in the universe belongs to this guy named Mangini. But in 2008/ the year I was BETTER than him in drum speed/ traditional grip of course/ he neither placed in the Best Drummer or Rising Star categories of the Drum Magazine Drummies Poll.

I did. HE didn't.

Therefore 2 years ago I was the greatest drummer in the universe who also happened to be fast, not Mangini, not Rabb, not Chambers, and certainly not that Joey guy///

me.

Of course I understand that a quantifiable measurement like drum speed does not account for aesthetics considerations, because as we all know there are no issues in music/drumming especially/ that can have a quantifiable measurement. However, the fact that I made such an awesome claim by combining verifiable drum speed with my fine 2008 Drum Magazine Drummies Poll showing clearly and irrefutably demonstrates a remarkable ability for innovation and creativity, which as we all know are the benchmark characteristics...

...for musicality

Man, this is great.

Now last year I didn't place at all in the Drum Magazine Drummies Poll. Ok last year I sucked. But as we know everybody sucks when they go back to school to learn. I didn't deserve it in 2009. I was a hack.

Whoooooa///Hey look!

Today the 2010 Drum Magazine Drummies Poll results come out. People tell me I got votes this year, as I wait to see if I become the greatest, best drummer in the universe. But if I don't place in 2010, I'm still Ok, because two years ago, when I was a senior in high school and knew one tenth of what I know now I was the third GREATEST rising drum star in the universe.

However, I am certainly aware that anyone here who disputes these claims is entirely correct because as we all know all opinions are the same.

Still, I can now say that I see the light of my ways. Thanks everyone. This is going to be a great day.

Hey one of you guys might want to check on those straw men, because I could swear there's an army of them marching on that house of cards.

Later.
__________________
I endorse Zildjian sticks because I like them.
  #119  
Old 07-03-2010, 11:18 AM
JPW JPW is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Finland
Posts: 818
Default Re: Judging musicality

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
However, I am certainly aware that anyone here who disputes these claims is entirely correct because as we all know all opinions are the same.

Still, I can now say that I see the light of my ways. Thanks everyone. This is going to be a great day.
Haha, good point, why didn't you bring this up earlier? =P Clearly I have to also change my opinion on Pridgen, I always thought Theodore was the more musical one of the Volta's drummers.
  #120  
Old 07-03-2010, 02:37 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Judging musicality

I don't mind if people talk about drummer A being better/ more musical etc than drummer B. If that works for you, go for it.
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com