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  #81  
Old 05-05-2006, 05:24 PM
Guinness
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Do you think Vaseline would do the same trick as the wax? I have often heard of people rubbing vaseline on the inside of the shells.
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  #82  
Old 05-05-2006, 05:29 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Just to speak up for you Guinness. I've used Vaseline and it appears to seal my shells nicely.
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  #83  
Old 05-05-2006, 06:37 PM
Bonzo Bonzo is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

ccdrums21, any thoughts on the relationship between snare and toms? You mention that you don't encounter alot of snare buzz by tuning your toms this way, but doesn't the snare have to be tuned a certain way also?
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  #84  
Old 05-05-2006, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Quote:
Do you think Vaseline would do the same trick as the wax? I have often heard of people rubbing vaseline on the inside of the shells.
using vaseline this way is another matter entirely. this will aid the projection of the drum since projection is affected by the friction on the inside surface of an instrument - why digireedoos are traditionally dunked in water just before playing them. many drum companies varnish the inside of the shells for this reason. unvarnished and non-vaselined shells will be warmer but have less projection.

the wax is only for the sharp bearing edge where it contacts the heads as an aid for tuning. i think under the pressure of tuning and also because of the porosity at a microscopic level of the wood, vaseline will not function well for the tuning purpose...it will literally be crushed into the wood or out of the way and offer no lubrication. wax has a far higher viscosity.

j
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  #85  
Old 05-05-2006, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Bonzo,
I'll tell you how I tune my snare and why I think it doesn't rattle much. Usually, snare buzz is caused by sympathetic vibrations from a drum that is closely tensioned to the pitch of the snare drum. With my snare, I'm not as scientific with the tuning. I like the snare to "pop" in a nice high register, kind of like the snare in the song "the finer things" by Stevie Winwood.... a good zeppelin snare, you know what I mean. So, I tune the bottom head real tight, almost as tight as it will go. Then, I tune the top head as tight as it will go and then start to detune it, keeping the pitches at each lug point as close as I can, until the sound opens up and I have a nice high pitched "pop" with good snare response from the tighter bottom head. Because the snare heads are pretty tight, especially the bottom, they're tuned way higher than any of the toms close by. The snare has it's own voice, the toms have theirs and there isn't any weird overtones happening to cause a buzz. That's what I've been doing for years and it works and sounds great. Give it a try if you'd like.
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  #86  
Old 05-06-2006, 06:11 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

I think a guy from C and C custom drums suggested using Vasoline on the shells on the drumshed forum, bearing and inside, and some people were skeptical. Somebody tried it on an old snare that was a dog to tune, he said it tuned way better with the vasoline. I intend to try it. I'll post results. Thanks for the tuning techniques, too! You sound very educated.
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  #87  
Old 05-10-2006, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

if i tuned my tom lets say a C and i tuned the bottom head tighter up three notes like what you said so i think that's E.... when i hit the tom would it sound more of a C or more of an E?
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  #88  
Old 05-10-2006, 05:15 PM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

It will probably sound like more of a C, but it will be difficult to determine the exact pitch when you strike it because of the two different pitches each head is tuned to. That's perfectly normal, and in fact, desired by most drummers. They don't want their drum to actually produce a distinct "note", just a good full sound with good, but not too much resonance. The tuning to notes principal helps you mostly to eliminate unwanted overtones and tune your drums in intervals so they sound good together. The top head is primarily responsible for the pitch, the bottom head for resonance and overall feel of the drum.
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  #89  
Old 05-10-2006, 07:31 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

I find that a little tube of chapstick works great on my bearing edges. It's a lot less greasy that straight vaseline but a lot softer than candle wax.
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  #90  
Old 05-11-2006, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Hey thnx. You guys have got some of the coolest tricks. Hell ya
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  #91  
Old 05-11-2006, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21
It will probably sound like more of a C, but it will be difficult to determine the exact pitch when you strike it because of the two different pitches each head is tuned to. That's perfectly normal, and in fact, desired by most drummers. They don't want their drum to actually produce a distinct "note", just a good full sound with good, but not too much resonance. The tuning to notes principal helps you mostly to eliminate unwanted overtones and tune your drums in intervals so they sound good together. The top head is primarily responsible for the pitch, the bottom head for resonance and overall feel of the drum.
exactly what i needed thanks a LOT!

i was thinking of tuning drums to the notes of the open strings of a guitar because from guitar experience, open string notes sound "dead" as in they sound "blank" in any song of any key..

would it sound ok if i tuned for example like this [batter head]:

bass E
snare G
floor tom C
Low tom A
high tom [no reso head] D

i was thinking of tuning drums in such a way that you could play somewhat melodically to any song of any key such that the notes of the drums wont fight the notes of the other instruments, in this case tuning to "dead" notes"
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  #92  
Old 05-11-2006, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

cdrums21, about tuning the drum with itself, how is that done. I mean, I've read about it, but I didn't really understand what they mean't by tuning the drum with itself?
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  #93  
Old 05-11-2006, 01:21 PM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Syaoran05,
I'm not so sure that I understand the concept of a "dead" note. I know what you mean when you say they sound "blank" in songs, but with drums, a note is a note, you just have to make sure that the notes are in relation to each other, as in thirds, fourths, etc. Also making sure the top and bottom heads are in a relationship to each other as well. Tuning kick and snare to notes is OK, but the toms are the ones that will "sing out" when you play them in a roll or together, so it's a little more important to get them happening. The way you say you would tune the toms, D, A and C, the relationship is a fourth between the high and low toms, then a difference of 9 notes between the low tom and floor tom. That's a big difference between the low tom and the floor tom and may not sound right or give you some weird overtones, you'll just have to see if it works. When tuning to notes it's more important to find a note that the drums sound good at. You don't want to tune a drum to a particular note if that note isn't in the drums optimum range. Start with the highest tom or floor tom and then try to tune the other drums in relation to it. For instance if you have a 10" to that sound good at a B, and you have a 12" tom as the next tom, it will probably sound good a third or fourth lower than the 10"tom. If the next drum is a 16" floor tom, you may want to go with a bigger interval, say a fifth, since there is a bigger difference in size between the two toms. See what I mean? Hope that answered your question.
Royman27,
A drum that is in tune with itself means that you should make sure that when tuning a drum head, at a point about 2" in from each lug point on the head, if you tap it there, the pitch should be the same at each lug point. That's getting the drum head in tune with itself. To get all the drums in tune with themselves, you need to find an interval that will allow each drum to speak well without causing unwanted frequencies. That is tuning in thirds, fourths, etc. like a chord so to speak. All the notes that are produced sound good together. That helps to reduce unwanted overtones, gives the head a longer life and helps it to seat properly on the bearing edge. I love these questions...keep 'em coming!!

Last edited by cdrums21; 05-11-2006 at 05:53 PM.
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  #94  
Old 05-11-2006, 02:05 PM
syaoran05 syaoran05 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21
Syaoran05,
I'm not so sure that I understand the concept of a "dead" note. I know what you mean when you say they sound "blank" in songs, but with drums, a note is a note, you just have to make sure that the notes are in relation to each other, as in thirds, fourths, etc. Also making sure the top and bottom heads are in a relationship to each other as well. Tuning kick and snare to notes is OK, but the toms are the ones that will "sing out" when you play them in a roll or together, so it's a little more important to get them happening. The way you say you would tune the toms, D, A and C, the relationship is a fourth between the high and low toms, then a difference of 9 notes between the low tom and floor tom. That's a big difference between the low tom and the floor tom and may not sound right or give you some weird overtones, you'll just have to see if it works. When tuning to notes it's more important to find a note that the drums sound good at. You don't want to tune a drum to a particular note if that note isn't in the drums optimum range. Start with the highest tom or floor tom and then try to tune the other drums in relation to it. For instance if you have a 10" to that sound good at a B, and you have a 12" tom as the next tom, it will probably sound good a third or fourth lower than the 10"tom. If the next drum is a 16" floor tom, you may want to go with a bigger interval, say a fifth, since there is a bigger difference in size between the two toms. See what I mean? Hope that answered your question.
Royman27,
A drum that is in tune with itself means that you should make sure that when tuning a drum head, at a point about 2" in from each lug point on the head, if you tap it there, the pitch should be the same at each lug point. That's getting the drum head in tune with itself. That helps to reduce unwanted overtones, gives the head a longer life and helps it to seat properly on the bearing edge. I love these questions...keep 'em coming!!

i think you got the concept of the "dead" note i was talking about, coz its about sounding "blank" on a song. anyway, thanks a lot about the answers, really helpful and i cant wait to apply what ive learned to my soon to exist el cheapo kit. i guess drums are a lot more different than guitar and bass, no? :P
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  #95  
Old 05-11-2006, 02:15 PM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Yeah, drums are a different animal, and there's more to them than just pounding away, if your serious about sound quality. Just so you're prepared, it may be tougher to tune and get a good, pleasing sound on an "el cheapo" kit. I don't want you to get frustrated, it's just like any other instrument. The better the quality, the better the sound.
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  #96  
Old 05-11-2006, 02:59 PM
syaoran05 syaoran05 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21
Yeah, drums are a different animal, and there's more to them than just pounding away, if your serious about sound quality. Just so you're prepared, it may be tougher to tune and get a good, pleasing sound on an "el cheapo" kit. I don't want you to get frustrated, it's just like any other instrument. The better the quality, the better the sound.
its ok dude, i know my el cheapo instruments,and ive learned to live with it :P the "best" kit i saw my whole life [personally] was a pearl forum, dude, so go figure how much el cheapo kits are the "norm" here. then again i consider myself the king of compensation so pretty much anything that's not trash is still an instrument to me :P

btw, i just went to the tuning bible site http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/id5.html and it says there and i quote “Batter for feel, resonant for pitch”...

but you say its the other way around [batter for pitch, reso for overall sound...

so which is more correct?
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  #97  
Old 05-11-2006, 03:10 PM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Hmmmm.....from my experience, the batter hear gives you the pitch and will determine feel as well. Too tight and it will sound like a tabletop, too loose and it will sound mushy. The resonant head will determine how long the drum sustains and adds to the overall feel, in that if you have a drum that has both heads tuned really low, the drum feels sloppy. But, if you tune the bottom head up to give a firmer sound reflection surface on the bottom, the drum "feels" better, more like it should. That's what I meant about overall feel from the resonant head. You can change the pitch with the resonant head, but primarily, the top determines pitch. I don't want to contradict the "bible", but I think most would agree on that one. Try it for yourself and see what you think. Maybe I'll start a new thread on that subject.....
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  #98  
Old 05-11-2006, 04:26 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Hmm.. that minor 3rd apart thing sounds interesting... I'm going to try it..
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  #99  
Old 05-11-2006, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

very interesting indeed...will take this into practice some time!!
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  #100  
Old 05-11-2006, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdrums21
Hmmmm.....from my experience, the batter hear gives you the pitch and will determine feel as well. Too tight and it will sound like a tabletop, too loose and it will sound mushy. The resonant head will determine how long the drum sustains and adds to the overall feel, in that if you have a drum that has both heads tuned really low, the drum feels sloppy. But, if you tune the bottom head up to give a firmer sound reflection surface on the bottom, the drum "feels" better, more like it should. That's what I meant about overall feel from the resonant head. You can change the pitch with the resonant head, but primarily, the top determines pitch. I don't want to contradict the "bible", but I think most would agree on that one. Try it for yourself and see what you think. Maybe I'll start a new thread on that subject.....
dude youre so cool man... you reply fast and you really explain a lot and really well and detailed. i salute you.

one question, ive never put any head on a drum and tuned it... approximately how many "full turns" does it take from the point of the "lowest clean pitch" to the desired tension [not note, eg. "too low is sloppy and too high like a tabletop"] of the heads?
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  #101  
Old 05-11-2006, 05:36 PM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Thanks bro, just doing unto others as I would have them do unto me....As far as the "full turn" thing goes. It doesn't take too many full turns to come to the desired pitch. Depending on your preference, most toms sound good at a low mid to midrange tuning. It's a little different for every drum, but I would put the heads on the drum, tighten the lugs with your fingers if you can until there as tight as you can get them with your fingers. if you can't finger tighten them, just turn with a key until the lug starts to grab the head. Then crank it up 1/2 turn (if your looking at the drumkey on the lug from the top, 1/2 turn would be the when one end of the key goes from the 12 o'clock position to the 6 o'clock position). Keep doing that, checking each lug point on the head and tap with your finger as it gets tighter to even up the pitches. Get it real tight and let it sit for a few hours or overnight. Then, start going around the drum and loosen the lugs the same 1/2 turn until the sound opens up and you like the tone and feel, making sure the lugs points on the head are even. If I had to guess, I would say that once you got the lugs to start to grab the head, and sometimes you have to go around the head a time or two to adjust lugs that loosen as some get tighter, the approximate number of "full turns" you would end up with would be anywhere from 1 1/2 (that's 3 half turns) to 2 1/2, depending on the quality of drum, the size of the drum (floor toms are tuned a bit lower normally), and the kind of sound you're looking for. Try it and let me know how it works.
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  #102  
Old 05-11-2006, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

yes.
hey CD have you ever had a look at that free website: the tuning bible?

j

ps: (personal message for clockwork orange - if you hate drummerworld so much why do you keep coming here...one of your members is reporting all your pathetic hate threads on you forum to me. i know that you are copying text from DW - including this very informative thread by a member who wasn't even here when you were banned (so why you hate a stranger is beyond me) - and then ripping them apart. very very sad.)
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  #103  
Old 05-11-2006, 08:23 PM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

NJ,
Yes, I've seen the drum tuning bible and countless other articles, interviews, blurbs, emails and phone calls with famous drummers and friends, you name it on drum tuning. It is one of my passions as you can tell :o), and I try to gather up all the info that I have learned, apply it and pass it on if it's appropriate, if I'm asked or if I have a forum to share the information. That's why I posted the thread about the top head or resonant head being responsible for pitch. The tuning bible says some things that I'm not so sure I agree with. If you haven't read the thread, please do so and comment on what you think.

By the way, am I missing something with the clockwork orange dude? Is he dissin' us? What a shame if he is, this a really good source for sound and useful information. Oh well, I guess you can't please everybody....
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  #104  
Old 05-11-2006, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

true, like i said somewhere else: musicians are people...and some people are jerks.

j
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  #105  
Old 05-11-2006, 11:03 PM
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Default Thanks!

First off, thanks cdrums21 for taking the time to provide all of this useful information......

I don't think this has been mentioned and it may eliminate some frustration, it did for me. For whatever reason - hoops, heads?? - at times the tension rod directly opposite the area you want to tweak will have more of an effect than the rod directly where you need to make a change so if you are turning a paticular rod and not seeing much, if any, change in the tone unless you turn the rod more times than the "norm" try tapping while turning the rod directly opposite to see if that works. If this is happening you will save yourself a lot of time, not to mention frustration, by knowing what's going on..............

Also, there is usually a "Magic rod" that can effect the total overall sound of the head so by finding it you can bring everything in with a little tweaking on just that one rod when you get close. The trick is finding it..............

I can't tell you how much time I spent chasing my tail until I realized that these two factors may be involved.
Now, if I'm having trouble, I check to see if they are............

Jack
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  #106  
Old 05-12-2006, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Thank you Jack, and yes my friend...you are right on the money with your comment. I couldn't agree more. Everything you said is fact. It all comes with experience and years of tuning. Obviously you have been at this awhile like me. Great post!!!
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  #107  
Old 05-12-2006, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Ummm, sorry to post this again. So how do you tune your drum with itself? I've only read that you tap the shell with no head on, and tune the head specifically to that tone, but I'm not really sure what it means still?
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  #108  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:43 AM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Sounds like a great idea man! I just ordered some new Remo Coated Ambassador Pinstripes for my kit. I have 12'', 13'' and 16''. I have tuning pitches on my metronome, but that sound gets annoying after about 20 seconds of leaving it on, so I think I am going to purchase a pitch pipe as well! :-) Thanks for the pointers.
Rock on,
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  #109  
Old 05-12-2006, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Royman27,
See my post on this thread about 10 posts or so back. It explains your question about getting the drum in tune with itself in detail.
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  #110  
Old 05-12-2006, 04:33 PM
syaoran05 syaoran05 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royman27
Ummm, sorry to post this again. So how do you tune your drum with itself? I've only read that you tap the shell with no head on, and tune the head specifically to that tone, but I'm not really sure what it means still?
cdrums21 i think he's talking about tuning the heads to the fundamental tone of the shell.. you mentioned tuning the head to itself [like what you said even out the sound on each lug]..

if you read the tuning bible it says there that you may hit the head and the initial attack will sound the note of the heads but the overall sound will be influenced by the fundamental note of the drum itself. meaning.. if lets say you tune your batter a C and your reso a G, and the note of the drum is A, the sound when it is hit will sound like a C with G overtones, then after a few moments, the overtones will sound more of an A already. tuning the drums to itself means tuning the heads the same note as the shell.

i think... tuning the drums to itself is more of a listening task than a tuning task. i think you do it like this..

tap the shell in a position such that it will resonate well so you could hear a nice sweet sound. try to figure out what the fundamental note is. knowing the fundamental note of the shell is really hard especially that knocking on wood and listening to its note isnt that easy. congratulations if you figured it out.

then simply tune both your heads to the note of the shell. so let's say your shell is a B, tune both your heads B, and the result will be a drum that just sings B as long as it vibrates.
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  #111  
Old 05-12-2006, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

If that is the case and he wants to know how to tune the drum to the shells' fundamental note, then I guess my tuning the head to itself advice doesn't really answer his question. Tuning the heads to the fundamental note of the shell is the DW concept of timbre matching the drums within a kit. You are right when you say it's difficult to hear. To get the clearest note, you pretty much have to strip the shell of all heads and hardware and strike the shell with the butt of the palm of your hand or a rubber mallet so as not to damage the shell. If you're lucky enough to hear the note, you can tune to that note, but sometimes it's decieving. I tried that with a 16" floor tom that I had, stripped 'er down naked and struck it with a rubber mallet. The note I heard was pretty clear and it seemed to be just above an A. When I tuned both heads on the drum to that note, the pitch was way to high and din't sound like a floor tom at all, boingy and ringy. Tuning the bottom head in different ways didn't help either. I ended up tuning it the way I currently tune and it sounded monstrous with great resonance and tone, but not too much...go figure.
I know of some DW guys who didn't dig the tuning of the drum to the note stamped inside the shell, I wonder if many other DW owners experienced that scenario.....maybe we'll get some replies.
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  #112  
Old 05-12-2006, 05:26 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

If the tom was about an A why didnt you try to tune the heads to C# and E?
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  #113  
Old 05-12-2006, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

I actually did kind of do that when I got the drum to sound good and they were very close to those two notes, I think it was approximately a C on top and an E on the bottom, but at the time I didn't realize the relationship those notes had to an A. I kind of stumbled on to it. But it makes sense why it sounded good.
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  #114  
Old 05-12-2006, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Well, since all you guys have been asking questions.
i figure i should too.
Ive been haveing trouble tuning my 10x8 tom. right.
and, i cant have my reso head too
loose. or else it has a nasty ass overtone. its like, derrrrrrrrew. haha.
idk.
any advice?
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Old 05-13-2006, 12:33 AM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

Is your drum a maple shell? Birch? That may make a difference in what the relative tension between the two heads will be. What I would do is to tune the top head up tighter than you would play it and let it sit for a while, making sure that when you tap at each lug point on the head, they're the same pitch. Then, after a few hours, start to detune the head going around the drum until it starts to open up, making sure the pitch at each lug is the same. When it starts to sound good, try to find out what note it is when you tap the head in front of the lugs. I would guess that it will probably be close to a B. If that's the case, and your bottom head is looser as you say, you probably will get weird overtones and snare buzz. If the top head is a B, first try tuning the bottom head to a B as well. If it still has too much sustain and causing problems, tune the bottom head up a little higher to a D, That's a minor third. That should take care of the overtones and buzz. If the drum doesn't sound and feel right at that pitch, find where the top head does sound and feel good, try to hear the note at each lug and tune the bottom head up 3 notes higher. You can do it by ear too, but tuning to notes is a bit more precise. Try it and post your results if you'd be so kind.
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  #116  
Old 05-13-2006, 12:42 AM
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DoubleBassUrFace DoubleBassUrFace is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

oh, just to say.
its a pdp kit, f-series.
birch shells.
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  #117  
Old 05-13-2006, 12:57 AM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

OK, cool. Then you may have better luck with the heads being tuned to the same pitch. Sometimes with birch shells, they need som extra tone and resonance to sound their best. Try it and see. You can always tweak up the bottom head to fine tune the sound. I'm assuming you have single ply resonant heads on the bottom and decent heads on top, right?
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Old 05-13-2006, 12:59 AM
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DoubleBassUrFace DoubleBassUrFace is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

stock reso head.
and evans genera g2 coated batter
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Old 05-13-2006, 02:17 AM
cdrums21 cdrums21 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

That should work, give it a try on your 10" tom and see what you come up with. If it happens that you get it sounding really good and like it, and you want your other toms to sound sililar and decend in specific intervals, let me know.
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  #120  
Old 05-13-2006, 08:04 AM
syaoran05 syaoran05 is offline
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Default Re: Cool tom tuning techniques!!

hey nutha i think this thread should be a sticky :D
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