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  #1  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:26 AM
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Default Problem with Drum Student

So, on the opposite side of the "teacher issue" discussion going on, I have a student problem.

In all my years teaching privet lessons (17 to be exact) I've never once come across this scenario.

I have a 10 year old girl who's father is forcing her to play. They have a family band, and all of her older siblings fill out the roster. Older sister on Bass, Older Brother Guitar and Vocals, and even Mom's in on it with backup vox, songwriter, and percussion toys.

This girl HATES the drums. Like HATES it. She doesn't practice, unless Dad forces her. She hims and haws and everything. I get at least 4 big dramatic sighs per lessons. Dead blank stares when I ask her to perform something, or she cops and attitude.
And the thing is, she's actually good! Like picks up on playing real fast. If she just spent a little more time working at it she would be fantastic!

Dad is delusional, and while I've tried to get him to understand, he just wants his family band.

I don't want to give up on this girl. I want to crack this egg and find a way to get her to find a little enjoyment in her instrument.

SO my question is to you, fellow drum instructors. Are there any methods you've found success with cracking a particular tough student?
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  #2  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:31 AM
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Default She doesn't want to learn?

Be done with her!

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  #3  
Old 05-03-2018, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Well no one likes to be coerced into something they don't want to do. Seems her Dad has chosen a poor strategy to encourage music in a child. Her problem is with her Dad, not you, because he is "forcing" her to take up this instrument. I'd do a heart to heart that you are not the enemy and she needs to either talk to her Dad and address her issues to find another instrument or acquiesce to his wishes and learn the drums and put the onus on her siblings to perform well with their instruments. The Dad sounds like Michael Jacksons father. Does she have any musical interests? All you can do is encourage any child to take up art, music, sports, etc. forcing them to take up any will more likely make them grow to hate them.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:30 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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Originally Posted by Living Dead Drummer View Post
..I have a 10 year old girl who's father is forcing her to play. They have a family band, and all of her older siblings fill out the roster. Older sister on Bass, Older Brother Guitar and Vocals, and even Mom's in on it with backup vox, songwriter, and percussion toys.

This girl HATES the drums. Like HATES it. She doesn't practice, unless Dad forces her. She hims and haws and everything. I get at least 4 big dramatic sighs per lessons. Dead blank stares when I ask her to perform something, or she cops and attitude.
And the thing is, she's actually good! Like picks up on playing real fast. If she just spent a little more time working at it she would be fantastic!

Dad is delusional, and while I've tried to get him to understand, he just wants his family band.

I don't want to give up on this girl. I want to crack this egg and find a way to get her to find a little enjoyment in her instrument.

SO my question is to you, fellow drum instructors. Are there any methods you've found success with cracking a particular tough student?..

My advice would be the following..

When a girl that age is forced by her father to learn drums and she hates the complete thing, means that most likely she also will not like anything that the drumteacher says regarding learning drums..At this moment seems like you and the girl are having completely nothing in common during that lesson and you are maybe even kinda the 'embodiment' (if thats correct english, i used a translator..lol..) of her problem..

My advice would be to skip the drummingpart a little during the lessons and try to find out what you have in common with this girl..And try to get her mindset in a way that she is not completely hating everything anymore when she has to come to your place and sees those drums..

Then, once you earned a little the trust of this child, maybe start a little about drums (and her talent) again..

Most important at this moment seems that her 'hate-mindset' goes away..
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  #5  
Old 05-03-2018, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

This is really a parent issue imo. It's one thing if the child doesn't like school work and her parents force her to study (Basic math, reading skills etc are needed to function in life). Music should be fun and not a chore, especially for kids (although it takes hard work to become good).

I say stick with her as long as you can (unless she starts disrespecting your time). Something may eventually click, especially if she sees herself making progress and getting really good. Maybe take some phone videos now ...and then some more later and she can see how she is actually progressing. You never know it may light a fire.

Good luck. I have the upmost respect for music teachers. No way that I would have the patience to do such. Teaching is a gift

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  #6  
Old 05-03-2018, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

It takes a lot of patience and creativity. Just keep experimenting. Even if you never actually bond, she's going to remember this and be influenced by it. She'll probably end up being great at something, with a lunatic parent like that. Just not at what the dad wants. The first thing I thought was to do a lesson or two where you just listen to music. See if you can find something she likes-- or just as importantly, that her dad hates.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Living Dead, I hope you don't mind if I rephrase your topic title and question based on info you provided: "Problem with parent of drum student, what should I do say to him?"
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  #8  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Pushy parent syndrome.

Nothing new here it usually happens in sports. I've seen it a hell of a lot in football and to an extent cricket. Outcome is the same for the lot, the kid just rebels and they burn out young which is understandable if you've never been listened to.

This guy should let his daughter find her own way. Someone should tell this guy the Osmonds and the Jacksons have already been done. From the sound of this band it sounds like my idea of hell, a novelty act gone wrong. Let him find out the hard way. How you've kept a straight face with this guy so far I'll never know!

My best advice would get the hell out of there, not wise to wave your balls at this hornets nest :)
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Old 05-03-2018, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

I saw the same thing in colleage. It was the daughter of the principal clarinetist of the San Antonio Symphony. She had the most natural hands of any player Iíve ever seen, just pure talent. However, she had REAL conflicts with her dad, and he had basically forced her to major in music. In fact, Iím pretty sure she had chosen percussion in school band in an effort to piss him off. She left after a semester. Too bad. I wished I had her natural talent.
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  #10  
Old 05-03-2018, 12:37 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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Originally Posted by DaleClark View Post
This is really a parent issue imo. It's one thing if the child doesn't like school work and her parents force her to study (Basic math, reading skills etc are needed to function in life). Music should be fun and not a chore, especially for kids.
How true.

Let's get one thing straight: a ten year old girl is a child.

There are some things a child just has to learn, but beyond that it's not good to impose something upon them they neither desire nor require. A child is still an individual with their own personal needs and feelings. There has to be balance between that and the need to educate them about the basics in life.

It's not good either to tell others how to deal with their children. However, in this situation you have become involved because the father asked for that.
I suggest that you completely leave aside your own objectives and focus solely on the child's needs. Don't carry on with the lessons because you feel something good might come out of it. What does this child feel? If there's really little point carrying on, then you will have to confront the father with this reality. Not an easy task, I'll admit. However, you would be fully justified in telling him. Nobody can force you to carry on the lessons if you sense that it's futile, or even detrimental.

Here's an eye-opening example for you: divorce when children are involved.

When a judge makes a decision regarding the children in this case (custody for example) they take into account only the needs of the child(ren). What each parent wants for themselves is not relevant (my understanding is that this is the common approach in most western countries).

Children cannot fend for themselves as adults can. Sometimes they need adults to stand up for them (unfortunately). You have to decide whether in this situation you have to stand up for this 10-year-old and tell her father that the lessons are a burden on his daughter. The more pushy the father is, the more difficult that discussion will be. But also the more justified.

Only you can really judge this situation. It requires empathy and subtleness.
I hope that the situation is not so unbearable that it will end like this. But as an adult, both you and especially the father have to realise that the child's needs come first here.
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  #11  
Old 05-03-2018, 12:48 PM
Maverick10 Maverick10 is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Living Dead Drummer,

Many, many, (many), haha years ago I taught lessons at a music store. I was the given mostly beginners or children. I found myself teaching the basics, which for me is never an issue cause it's good to go back on work on those myself. but some of the students weren't there cause they wanted to be. Maybe it was 30mins of babysitting so the parents could have a break, or it was a school band requirement. The think I found most helpful was not trying to teach them what I loved about playing drums and music, but finding out what they love about drums and music. While your student may be under duress in being forced to play drums, she's still into music and it sounds like on some level she's into drums. She may just be rebelling cause it's a force situation from her dad.

My advice, (for what it's worth) is to connect with her personally and musically. Not sure what your lesson plan is with her, but have her bring in songs she likes, ask her about those songs. What do you like about it? what don't you like about it? Do the lyrics speak to you? Does it make you want to Dance? If so what makes you want to dance?

Maybe show her some youtube clips of female drummers. Show her different aspects of percussion, like Blue Man Group, Drum Corps, percussion ensemble.

As a dad I never force my daughter to do anything. If she wants to try something then we do it until she's not interested in it anymore, and when that happens I start asking her questions along the lines of the examples I gave you. This helps see if she really doesn't like the activity or if she thinks she's not good at it and that's why she wants to quit.

Trying to make the lessons focused on what her dad wants her to play vs what she wants to play could be the breakthrough you're looking for to getting her more involved.

It's unfortunate that her father has to be that way.
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  #12  
Old 05-03-2018, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

I worked my way through college teaching and coaching swin teams at summer pools and the local YMCA. After college it was more full time. I had young kids like this that were pushed by parents to compete. They were not interested, wasted their time, and my time, and were disrupted. I talked to the parents, and let them know that the attitude changed or they were gone. Parents insisted but I put my foot down. Say good bye.
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  #13  
Old 05-03-2018, 01:54 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

I'd just like to reiterate how delicate a subject it is to speak to a mother or father regarding their parenting and issues the child(ren) might have because of it. There's a general tendency to refrain from doing it because of the widely held notion that a parent always knows what's best for their child. Unfortunately, this is not true. Sometimes a parent even gets things horribly wrong. This can happen when a parent's ego and own ambitions prevent them from understanding what's in their cild's best interest and what's not.

I know this falls outside the remit of what would usually be expected of a music teacher but it's important to understand the problematics at hand.
Your posts suggest that you're an engaging and sincere person, Nicholas. I think you'll be able to handle this.

I think the best approach requires a much bigger dose of diplomacy and pyschology than just "putting your foot down". If you terminate the lessons in the wrong way it will likely upset and frustrate the father which in turn could cause the young girl to feel guilty. I highly recommend proceeding in a way that will allow the father to finally see clear and place his daughters best interest above his own. He has to be able to show his daughter understanding, for her sake as well as for his own. This is the only possible positive outcome.

I back the other posts that suggest trying to first engage differently with the student. If that doesn't provide some kind of hope or success, then you'll have to confront the father.
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:04 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

https://youtu.be/0xDAjGv5Cwc ..show her this or something similar ,it could be inspiring for her.
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Back when I was teaching music lessons (drums, guitar, mountain dulcimer, and hammered dulcimer), on the first day of class I'd talk with the parents and the students in the same room, and I'd tell them as soon as the student did not find taking lessons and playing an instrument fun, I'd have to let them go. I know there will be areas of frustration and work, and every lesson will not go that great, but I would never teach a student who hated playing because the best thing that MY parents did is to NOT force me to play music and they somewhat understanding whenever I wanted to quit piano lessons.

If I was in your shoes, invite the dad in, and tell him that apparently the daughter isn't happy doing this, and you feel guilty by making her do it. But that's just me.
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:10 PM
Push pull stroke Push pull stroke is offline
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Maybe show the father and the daughter this thread
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  #17  
Old 05-03-2018, 02:31 PM
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By "putting my foot down" I only meant that I stood firm on my decision. I was very diplomatic since these parents were also paying for the lessons or coaching. I was coaching at one time, 118 swimmers between the age of 6 and 18 in a two hour period. Trying to keep an eye on all of those swimmers while one or two did their best to misbehave or just be in the way was a task. I had swimmers that swam for me on summer leagues as well as the YMCA winter leagues. I wasn't a task master, but a swimming coach and refused to be a baby sitter. I have a teaching degree and enough experience to know who want to be there and who doesn't. Being honest with the parents and having them be honest with me normally took care of any issues. i really wasn't a tyrant. I would invite the father to come and observe his daughter in action and maybe get an understanding of where you stand.
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Old 05-03-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by GruntersDad View Post
By "putting my foot down" I only meant that I stood firm on my decision. I was very diplomatic since these parents were also paying for the lessons or coaching. I was coaching atn one time, 118 swimmers between the age of 6 and 18 in a two hour period. Trying to keep an eye on all of those swimmers while one or two did their best to misbehave or just be in the way was a task. I had swimmers that swam for me on summer leagues as well as the YMCA winter leagues. I wasn't a task master, but a swimming coach and refused to be a baby sitter. I have a teaching degree and enough experience to know who want to be there and who doesn't. Being honest with the parents and having them be honest with me normally took care of any issues. i really wasn't a tyrant. I would invite the father to come and observe his daughter in action and maybe get an understanding of where you stand.
Good point. Honesty wins the day.

I didn't doubt that you went about things in the right way GD when dealing with parents and their children.
I imagine the pool environment with it's issue of health and safety would have required you to be doubly vigilant and reactive. In this situation I would even understand if an instructor/teacher had to occasionally put safety firmly above "protecting" people's feelings.
I think I took greater issue with the statement "say goodbye" which I found overly assertive. I would ameliorate this slightly by saying "know when and how to say goodbye".

I suppose this safety issue doesn't apply here. On the other hand, it's the arts. Let's face it, when people push their children to get involved in an artistic field, it might be because of an unfulfilled ambition on their own part. I think it's wise to be sensitive to this possibility and tread lighty whilst still getting the message across that the child might not share the same desire. Hard message to hear for a parent, but it's better to learn to accept the truth.

Someone mentioned the word "happy". That really should be the natural state of a child and first priority for a parent. Shows my own shortcummings that I didn't think myself to refer to the child's happiness.
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Old 05-03-2018, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

I'm with Mike Stands on that one,
10 is young ; and music is a game.
I give courses to children and teenagers, sometimes adults, not drumming but English and French as a Private teacher.
The approach with a kid has to be really different.

Teaching music should be easier - Music is fun - Language courses maybe not ;-)
My guess, if the kid has good amenities/abilities already, would be to drive courses in a funnier way. When I teach English to kids (sometimes 6/7 year old), I play with them ; I can be academic but only when needed. And with desperate teenagers who doesn't want to take course (it often happens), I speak a lot with them, to focus and find, how could I say - a door to their intersest, and understand them.
Nothing is worse than the one who doesn't want to learn - I know that very well.
But really dont give up on her ; of course her parents may be wrong in their goal, but, if you feel any talent in her, good abilities, persevere.

Last edited by Tamaefx; 05-03-2018 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Ya know after reading the riot act to the father I realize I may have been harsh. I started remembering all the things my parents made me do, at great resistance, piano, tap dancing, football, studying, all kind of jobs (working in construction, on farm, at a meat market, etc) that my Dad got for me so I would appreciate how everyone makes a living. Now to be honest I hated it when they made me do these things (and I tried just being terrible so they'd let me quit which they'd never let me do-I'd have to at least try and perform before I could earn stopping) some I have no interest to ever do again and I don't play piano nor tap dance, but dang grateful they did push me and I'm better for the experience. Hindsight is always 20/20-I'd like to play piano and tap dance LOL.
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  #21  
Old 05-03-2018, 06:03 PM
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If the kid doesn't want to play drums, why force them?

It's not like being forced to learn your multiplication tables.
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  #22  
Old 05-03-2018, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

I've come across this more than a few times in my years teaching

it can be exhausting and infuriating

my theory is... as long as they are paying I will try to figure out a way to get her engaged ... I take it as a challenge and a way to improve my people and teaching skills ... when they stop I feel that I have failed so I do everything I can to make them love music and feel like they can create unique things when they have passion for something

when I've had the most success is when I just spend time getting to know the student ... we may spend an entire lesson or two just bonding on things they are interested in ... maybe its music, video games, a TV show, dancing, flowers, ice cream, whatever ... once I find something I milk it

we as teachers often have to drop the academic stuff and become playmates and friends at times ...

sounds like dad is obviously taking the fun out of life ... so I would take it upon myself to inject the fun back into it

games work wonders ... kids love a good competition ... they are competitive by nature ... I always use things like memory games where it is like the game Simon ... I play something ... they repeat it ... starting crazy simple and I add something on each time ...
I keep score on a dry erase board and they love that ... they want to WIN !!!

find a song she likes ... and don't even pick up the sticks for a lesson ... just dance to the song ... talk about the song and what is going on in it....
talk about things like how you picture the drummer recording it dressed as a clown or in his underwear or whatever and have her air drum to it pretending to be the drummer ... kids have awesome senses of humor like that

do you play another instrument ?.... piano ?.. guitar ?

if you do ... that is a great help ...

I play guitar with all my students ... we play cover songs together ... we write songs together ... they love to write lyrics ....

it has to be fun ... she has to feel like she is contributing and not just being told what to do

I'm interested to hear how this plays out for it is very close to home for me

I'll probably experience something like it today actually ... :)

Last edited by WhoIsTony?; 05-03-2018 at 06:16 PM.
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Old 05-03-2018, 07:25 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
I've come across this more than a few times in my years teaching

it can be exhausting and infuriating

my theory is... as long as they are paying I will try to figure out a way to get her engaged ... I take it as a challenge and a way to improve my people and teaching skills ... when they stop I feel that I have failed so I do everything I can to make them love music and feel like they can create unique things when they have passion for something

when I've had the most success is when I just spend time getting to know the student ... we may spend an entire lesson or two just bonding on things they are interested in ... maybe its music, video games, a TV show, dancing, flowers, ice cream, whatever ... once I find something I milk it

we as teachers often have to drop the academic stuff and become playmates and friends at times ...

sounds like dad is obviously taking the fun out of life ... so I would take it upon myself to inject the fun back into it

games work wonders ... kids love a good competition ... they are competitive by nature ... I always use things like memory games where it is like the game Simon ... I play something ... they repeat it ... starting crazy simple and I add something on each time ...
I keep score on a dry erase board and they love that ... they want to WIN !!!

find a song she likes ... and don't even pick up the sticks for a lesson ... just dance to the song ... talk about the song and what is going on in it....
talk about things like how you picture the drummer recording it dressed as a clown or in his underwear or whatever and have her air drum to it pretending to be the drummer ... kids have awesome senses of humor like that

do you play another instrument ?.... piano ?.. guitar ?

if you do ... that is a great help ...

I play guitar with all my students ... we play cover songs together ... we write songs together ... they love to write lyrics ....

it has to be fun ... she has to feel like she is contributing and not just being told what to do

I'm interested to hear how this plays out for it is very close to home for me

I'll probably experience something like it today actually ... :)
Quoted for absolute sheer brilliance.

I was going to say something along the same lines, but this is just teaching gold right there.
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Old 05-03-2018, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
I've come across this more than a few times in my years teaching

it can be exhausting and infuriating

my theory is... as long as they are paying I will try to figure out a way to get her engaged ... I take it as a challenge and a way to improve my people and teaching skills ... when they stop I feel that I have failed so I do everything I can to make them love music and feel like they can create unique things when they have passion for something

when I've had the most success is when I just spend time getting to know the student ... we may spend an entire lesson or two just bonding on things they are interested in ... maybe its music, video games, a TV show, dancing, flowers, ice cream, whatever ... once I find something I milk it

we as teachers often have to drop the academic stuff and become playmates and friends at times ...

sounds like dad is obviously taking the fun out of life ... so I would take it upon myself to inject the fun back into it

games work wonders ... kids love a good competition ... they are competitive by nature ... I always use things like memory games where it is like the game Simon ... I play something ... they repeat it ... starting crazy simple and I add something on each time ...
I keep score on a dry erase board and they love that ... they want to WIN !!!

find a song she likes ... and don't even pick up the sticks for a lesson ... just dance to the song ... talk about the song and what is going on in it....
talk about things like how you picture the drummer recording it dressed as a clown or in his underwear or whatever and have her air drum to it pretending to be the drummer ... kids have awesome senses of humor like that

do you play another instrument ?.... piano ?.. guitar ?

if you do ... that is a great help ...

I play guitar with all my students ... we play cover songs together ... we write songs together ... they love to write lyrics ....

it has to be fun ... she has to feel like she is contributing and not just being told what to do

I'm interested to hear how this plays out for it is very close to home for me

I'll probably experience something like it today actually ... :)

This was essentially going to be my reply. And no, I'm not kidding!!
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  #25  
Old 05-03-2018, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

So THAT'S what happened to Mr. Partridge...

I've seen this before. Throw her a tambourine.
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  #26  
Old 05-03-2018, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
..we may spend an entire lesson or two just bonding on things they are interested in ... maybe its music, video games, a TV show, dancing, flowers, ice cream, whatever ... once I find something I milk it..

..sounds like dad is obviously taking the fun out of life ... so I would take it upon myself to inject the fun back into it..

games work wonders ... kids love a good competition ... they are competitive by nature ... I always use things like memory games where it is like the game Simon ... I play something ... they repeat it ... starting crazy simple and I add something on each time ...
I keep score on a dry erase board and they love that ... they want to WIN !!!

find a song she likes ... and don't even pick up the sticks for a lesson ... just dance to the song ... talk about the song and what is going on in it....
talk about things like how you picture the drummer recording it dressed as a clown or in his underwear or whatever and have her air drum to it pretending to be the drummer ... kids have awesome senses of humor like that..

I have a lot of respect for the drummer that you are and when having 50 students a week means that also as a teacher you have something going on, but with things like this you lose me a little in this thread..

The things i highlighted almost sound to me like we are dealing here with an autistic child with huge family issues that needs some music-therapy to get closer to her feelings and pleasure in life again..Which could be the case ofcourse, but thats not what i understood from the starting post of this thread..

In my opinion is anyway kinda difficult to give a decent advice in this case when not knowing the girl, her behaviour, the fathers behaviour, etc..Basically we are all just making assumptions with that..
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  #27  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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I have a lot of respect for the drummer that you are and when having 50 students a week means that also as a teacher you have something going on, but with things like this you lose me a little in this thread..

The things i highlighted almost sound to me like we are dealing here with an autistic child with huge family issues that needs some music-therapy to get closer to her feelings and pleasure in life again..Which could be the case ofcourse, but thats not what i understood from the starting post of this thread..

In my opinion is anyway kinda difficult to give a decent advice in this case when not knowing the girl, her behaviour, the fathers behaviour, etc..Basically we are all just making assumptions with that..
you obviously don't deal with children on a regular basis or have the slightest understanding of what it takes to amuse , inspire and motivate a child into exploring a creative process that they might not yet be comfortable with

99 out of 100 teachers give up on kids like this ... that won't be me ... I understand what it takes to gain a kids trust ... to make them laugh ... to find what inspires them ... to find the creativity in them.

my 14 years of successful teaching experience with a waiting list longer than I'll ever be able to accommodate and kids who I handed their first pair of sticks getting full scholarships into some of the best music schools in the world who went on to successful careers in the music business doesn't qualify me to hope YOU approve of things in my post ... it qualifies me to educate aspiring musicians and get the best out of them even when they don't believe themselves that they can do it

have a wonderful day
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
I have a lot of respect for the drummer that you are and when having 50 students a week means that also as a teacher you have something going on, but with things like this you lose me a little in this thread..

The things i highlighted almost sound to me like we are dealing here with an autistic child with huge family issues that needs some music-therapy to get closer to her feelings and pleasure in life again..Which could be the case ofcourse, but thats not what i understood from the starting post of this thread..

In my opinion is anyway kinda difficult to give a decent advice in this case when not knowing the girl, her behaviour, the fathers behaviour, etc..Basically we are all just making assumptions with that..
LOL.

You're pulling non-sense from thin air. Why are you assuming it's anything more than the OP made it out to be? We're talking about teaching drums, not diagnosing or dealing with autism or family issues. quite simply not the teacher's problems. The teachers problem is to try and engage the student, which Tony gave amazing suggestions for.

On a few occasions, I've taught very young children, even in a group setting, and I usually fall back on something else Tony taught me a long time ago... You can break down rhythms and syllables or nursery rhyme type things, demonstrate playing over them and all of a sudden the kid can play the damned thing!
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:15 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
..you obviously don't deal with children on a regular basis or have the slightest understanding of what it takes to amuse , inspire and motivate a child into exploring a creative process that they might not yet be comfortable with

99 out of 100 teachers give up on kids like this ... that won't be me ... I understand what it takes to gain a kids trust ... to make them laugh ... to find what inspires them ... to find the creativity in them.

my 14 years of successful teaching experience with a waiting list longer than I'll ever be able to accommodate and kids who I handed their first pair of sticks getting full scholarships into some of the best music schools in the world who went on to successful careers in the music business doesn't qualify me to hope YOU approve of things in my post ... it qualifies me to educate aspiring musicians and get the best out of them even when they don't believe themselves that they can do it

have a wonderful day..

With all respect, but we are here on a public forum where you post things and people from all over the world read them..And in the part of the world where i live, the things i highlighted in my previous post sound almost like going to therapy instead of a drumlesson, at least to me..There was no disrespect at all meant with that and if those things work for you then thats a fact..And besides that, my first post in this thread allready showed that i agree with 75% from what you say, just not with everything..But you are right, my opinion should be completely unimportant to you, but then i think i am still allowed to give that opinion..

I studied 6 years to become a highschool teacher btw and also worked as one..

And, without sarcasm, i wish you also a nice day..
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Ok, 22 year Science teacher here. Tony has all the right techniques to try to bring out the best in a defiant student.

Carry on.
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  #31  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:27 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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With all respect, but we are here on a public forum where you post things and people from all over the world read them..And in the part of the world where i live, the things i highlighted in my previous post sound almost like going to therapy instead of a drumlesson, at least to me..There was no disrespect at all meant with that and if those things work for you then thats a fact..And besides that, my first post in this thread allready showed that i agree with 75% from what you say, just not with everything..But you are right, my opinion should be completely unimportant to you, but then i think i am still allowed to give that opinion..

I studied 6 years to become a highschool teacher btw and also worked as one..

And, without sarcasm, i wish you also a nice day..
drum lessons are very often like a therapy session

if any teacher is in a one on one situation with a difficult student and does not try to crack into their psyche to try to understand what the roadblock is and how they can tear it down ... how to inspire them... in my opinion they are a horrible teacher and should probably go get a job in construction or something where they don't have to deal with the complexities of children

you have to gain trust ... it is an emotional family type relationship to me ... I take my students seriously and they know me personally ... and I know their families

I am not trying to teach them to play drums ... I am trying to give them a craft that they can be proud of ... something that can build confidence ...

you want to learn how to play a paradiddle and then apply it to the set and be sent on your way ?... then don't come to me

we deal with real life over here ... and that doesn't always involve drum sticks
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  #32  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:30 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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..LOL.

You're pulling non-sense from thin air. Why are you assuming it's anything more than the OP made it out to be? We're talking about teaching drums, not diagnosing or dealing with autism or family issues. quite simply not the teacher's problems!..

I chose my words very carefully and i never wrote that i assumed anything..I wrote that in my opinion is difficult to give a decent advice in this situation, because those advices are only based on assumptions..Simply because none of us ever met the girl, her parents or anyone involved (allthough some of the members here maybe know Living Dead Drummer personally, that could be..)..

I only wrote that some lines 'almost sound to me like'............

Nothing more, nothing less..
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  #33  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:47 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Yeah. It's not really possible to know from a general second hand perspective.

I can't say I've never had an issue, but being clear and honest with both student and parent is the way.
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Old 05-04-2018, 01:35 AM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

I haven't taught children-other than 8 years as Mr. Mom with my own three daughters. But I have taught undergrads biological sciences and medical students histology and directed surgeon fellows in research-just bigger kids with a lot of the same problems. Lots of great opinions on how to educate-it should be fun and it isn't all in the book because part is from your own experiences, part letting them know you know what you are talking about (so they will bother to listen) and part that you really care and are on their side (develop trust)-wanting their success, that it's about being a life-long learner, making sure they are prepared to be competitive (so I set high standards) and open them to various opportunities. But it's the same you get all kind of strange social issues and meddling parents (students have to give parents written permission before I can speak to them legally but that never stops them). I tell them I want the best for their child too-I think of them as my own I'm invested-so I'm going to give them the best education (I can) to prepare them for competitive STEM fields. Some parents would lament their child was the first in their family to attend college and what their big plans were-nursing, med school, dental school, etc. So I ask them do you want me to just pass them or do you want them to succeed? I would tell them of my rural upbringing and poor education, as well as being a terrible student, however a little encouragement and great mentors pushed me to do things I never thought possible- and I've helped many students to achieve their goals. I have so many mentors that encouraged and "taught" me about my field of study, but also about life-how to deal with people, be a better public speaker, how to juggle life and academia and still be husband and parent, how to deal with student issues-academic and social. The strangest was a recent online course that a student suddenly admitted cheating, then posted porno, then threatened myself and other students. It was bizarre-like watching the Titanic. I still have students who contact me on occasion to let me know of their good fortune and success-and thank me for pushing them (much as I have and still thank all my mentors) and thank me for their education. Man that is the best feeling in the world.
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  #35  
Old 05-04-2018, 12:48 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

The ops original post was discussing a child who seems to be not into drums (at the moment) with an overbearing parent.

Now we have diagnosed Autism, an ego contest (I have taught longer than you have taught, etc) and I'm sure the child will be diagnosed as a future career criminal if this keeps up.

The op was just asking for simple input and starting a discussion.
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  #36  
Old 05-04-2018, 01:44 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
drum lessons are very often like a therapy session

if any teacher is in a one on one situation with a difficult student and does not try to crack into their psyche to try to understand what the roadblock is and how they can tear it down ... how to inspire them... in my opinion they are a horrible teacher and should probably go get a job in construction or something where they don't have to deal with the complexities of children

you have to gain trust ... it is an emotional family type relationship to me ... I take my students seriously and they know me personally ... and I know their families

I am not trying to teach them to play drums ... I am trying to give them a craft that they can be proud of ... something that can build confidence ...

you want to learn how to play a paradiddle and then apply it to the set and be sent on your way ?... then don't come to me

we deal with real life over here ... and that doesn't always involve drum sticks

Tony, I do think that your passion and dedication came across in your usual "forthright" manner in one of your previous replies.

However, you speak true and your grander vision of teaching is a real eye opener. Notably when you mention the complexities of children.

Most people can do something well. Many will even have a good understanding of the thing(s) they do well. But to have the capacity to transmit that knowledge in a meaningful well, only a few people really have that vision and ability. At least I can say that I have never thought of myself as someone who could teach. Too many people choose that path without the clarity of vision that you display. That's no slight on teachers, just a recognition that it's a very challenging profession.

Your commitment is fully evident in the way you describe your approach. I think LDD, and anyone else for that matter, would be well advised to think about it. Even from a parenting perspective. The way you invest yourself personally into your teaching role is really admirable. I know I wouldn't have the energy to do it on the scale that teaching requires.

I would want my child to be taught by people with such strong conviction and dedication. It just shows the importance of good education, something that should be available to all. Alas.
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Old 05-04-2018, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Not sure if there's anything to add here, but try to remember that the worst thing you can do is make the girl not like music. Her dad may well make her hate playing the drums, and she may not be into rudiments, beats, and fills, but, if all else fails, show her some cool music! Start with what she's into, whether it's from Disney shows, Glee, video games, or whatever. Then introduce her to funk, reggae, blues, The Meters, Michael Jackson, Sinatra, and jam along to all of this music on the drums. She may hate lessons, but she won't hate the exposure. In short, show her how much fun music is.

It might be good to learn basic beats and styles along with songs that SHE LIKES (not what her Dad's band is playing). Then you can trade songs, i.e. one she likes, then one you like, etc.

If at all possible, get her to smile while playing. Sometimes you can use reverse psychology ("Okay, absolutely NO SMILING!"), or be silly yourself ("Okay let's play this beat again, but while smiling like huge dorks!").

Best of luck. Props to you for seeking advice!
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  #38  
Old 05-04-2018, 06:50 PM
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If I hated doing something I'd have no problemo frowning the entire time.
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  #39  
Old 05-04-2018, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

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If I hated doing something I'd have no problemo frowning the entire time.
children don't genuinely "hate" anything ... and no kid I have ever met hates hitting drums ...

hate is a taught emotion ... it is not one natural to our psyche

what they will dislike is the way it is introduced to them or forced upon them

if the right person finds their inspiration ... shows them the joy in music and creating ... the seed of love and confidence can be planted

this is not swimming lessons ... this is not school ... this is expression, artistic creation, this is learning how to say things you feel that cannot be put into words

they need to be shown that

anyone can call themselves a "teacher" ... but not everyone can bring those things out of a child
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  #40  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:06 PM
Macarina Macarina is online now
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Default Re: Problem with Drum Student

Hmmmmm.... Tiger Dad. Not sure how well that works.

anyway... two thoughts.

Approach the girl with reverse psychology.

or

Get real with the Dad and just tell him your not going to waste your time, his or hers.
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