DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 04-19-2015, 08:03 AM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default On teaching

I hate admitting that I'm getting older. Worse, I hate feeling like things have passed me by, or I let them pass me by.

This weekend I got to teach some audio basics at a blues guitarist weekend retreat - kind of like a band camp situation - where all the participants were holed-up in a Holiday Inn, and through out the day they attended classes, private lessons, or had jam time with themselves or instructors. I was one of those 'lecture-seminars' covering basic live audio and recording.

My part went great, I'm not here to talk about what I did. But in between sessions, I got to meet with some of the participants while I was on a break and we talked a lot about how people learn.

Since they knew I was a working drummer, naturally, we got talking about education and what each of us did. But what surprised me was when I related to how I learned some 30 years ago, to how kids are taught today, it was like night and day.

My situation was nothing as violent as the movie Whiplash (which I have yet to see, other than the trailers), but it was close. Since I was at a blues guitar retreat, I told them the story of how on my first day in college with the jazz band, we pulled up a blues chart, and we didn't even get through the first 12 bars before the director stops us and proceeds to rip into me about how bad my timing is, and how I couldn't lay down a solid shuffle, etc.,....

A lot of the guys I spoke with this weekend didn't like the story at all. Some even related stories of how they were kids playing some other instrument and quit because the teacher just wasn't the positive motivating kind.

I argued my point that this happened to me in college, where I was paying to be there. I was not some 12-year-old in beginning 5th grade band. In the college situation, I think my instructors figure that you got this far, and you're willing to go through hell to get where you're going. And my instructors, back in the mid to late 80s, were the people who played in big bands with leaders like Stan Kenton, or Maynard Ferguson, or even Buddy Rich. That era of musician: working hard, playing out a lot, and getting jaded in the process, is where I came up in, I guess.

I get that teachers should be motivational and nurturing to their students (this would be the pendulum swinging completely the other way), but by how much?

Some people say the movie Whiplash is completely fake and wrong - some I've heard say they wouldn't let their kid to suffer through that kind of environment because now it's mentally damaging. But in my day, my instructors totally played head games with me to get me to work on stuff. Nobody ever threw stuff at me or trashed the drumset, but they certainly applied some mental anguish at some point to push me farther than I thought I would go.

And in college, I paid a lot of money for that. And in a way, it has shaped me into the guy I am now. I'm not complaining about not ever having played with Sting or anything, but I still work on stuff around doing the jobs I've gotten.

I'm not saying that I think the teacher-student relationship should be adversarial, but how much could it be? Obviously, you're not as good as you want to be, so you go to school to get better. The teacher points out you have problems, and forces you to either take the bull by the horns so you get better, or you quit working on it. Perhaps my take on this is that you can't really be 'friends' with your parents because ultimately, they're preparing you to be on your own?

This whole experience really had me biting my tongue and kept me from barking back to some of these students about just "manning-up" (or "womaning-up) and take care of business. I realized a lot has changed in the last 20 or so years, and there's plenty of positive examples of players who didn't get beat-up by their instructors and went on to bigger and better things.

What are you willing to do to get better at your chosen craft? What are you willing to listen to to make yourself get better? Or do you just resign yourself to not getting any better and stop listening? What did you pay for?

Just wondering out loud. Or am I crazy?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-19-2015, 08:15 AM
Hollywood Jim's Avatar
Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: On teaching

I'm on your side with this.
There is no need to belittle someone in public, or swear at them.
But a teacher needs to push when pushing is what is called for.

I can just see these musicians falling to pieces when things get tough, if they have been coddled too much by teachers.


.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-19-2015, 08:44 AM
KamaK KamaK is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,780
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
What are you willing to do to get better at your chosen craft? What are you willing to listen to to make yourself get better? Or do you just resign yourself to not getting any better and stop listening? What did you pay for?

Just wondering out loud. Or am I crazy?
Different people are driven by different things. Mean teachers exist by virtue of those that are willing to pay for them to teach. If they weren't a demand for them, they'd all seek other jobs.

Crazy question. Do you play because you enjoy it, or are you compelled to play in the same way that 'a resident' is compelled to repeatedly wash his hands, lock the windows, and flip the light switch 9 times?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:01 AM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Its just poor lazy teaching. You dont beat everyone with the same stick. learning an instrument, especialy when you are paying for the process, is not a one size fits all method.

People who are paying obviously want to learn, most are like a sponge, they just soak it up. A good teacher motivates and inspires students and makes the method fit the student, with a great tutor students cant wait to be back in the classroom/studio because the process is fun and exciting.

Of course there will be sticking points and stressfull times, but Its the primary job of the teacher to ease the different personality types through these difficult periods. If it was surviival of the fittest, I could teach that, pick up the sylabus notes for the day and shout at everyone, yea.....great teaching method.

Students learn more, and faster, If they respect and admire the tutor, both as a teacher and as a musician. Fear should never be a part of teaching.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-19-2015, 12:39 PM
BachBeat's Avatar
BachBeat BachBeat is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 180
Default Re: On teaching

The best teachers in life always get to know their students. They never treat them like 'students'...they are treated like an individual; there's no 'all students are the same...one size fits all' approach to teaching. Developmentally...there are similarities between all teenagers (for example), but you simply cannot apply the same method to scores of individuals and hope for excellent results. There is a balance point to find between 'this is how people are' and 'this is how you are', and a good teacher will invest the time and care to find that balance.

I've been teaching now for nearly 20 years behind the drums, and have taught in elementary schools right up to college in various disciplines, and the greatest teachers I've ever met or worked with genuinely care about their students. Sometimes that requires tough love...but there's a world of difference between 'tough love' and just 'tough'.
__________________
Yamaha, Istanbul Agop, Vic Firth, Remo.

https://www.drumsbykarl.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-19-2015, 01:06 PM
picodon's Avatar
picodon picodon is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: France
Posts: 669
Default Re: On teaching

Positive motivating is good for beginners. If you're looking for excellence, nothing works better than the occasional kick in the butt. Occasional, not permanent :)
I have two kids. One badly lacks self confidence and continuously asks for positive motivation. But it's only when I kick her butt (not literally) that things are taken to the next level.

My former drum teacher was 23, that's 20 yrs younger than I am. He's a very ambitious and demanding guy, but very conscious about his age and mine. One week I had not made any progress, due to business trips and things to do at home I had not touched the kit the whole week. He gave me the radioactive look and said softly, looking for the right words: "you know, this stuff takes a lot of effort. You really need to put in the effort, or we're not going anywhere and it won't be any fun for you or me. Next week I hope you can do better." There was no swearing or throwing cymbals or anything but I swear that worked on me, the X-ray look even more than the words I guess. The week after that I knew how to play my stuff.

Nurturing and motivating should not be necessary with a self-motivated ambitious student. And if the student is not self-motivated and ambitious, why choose a career in music?

PS I tried to watch Whiplash but gave up after 10 mins.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-19-2015, 02:19 PM
bigd bigd is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 522
Default Re: On teaching

Bo,

I understand what you're saying. People want education in general to be "fun and exciting" I see that every day as a public school elementary teacher.

I also have a son in a major music conservatory here on the east coast. Famous school and percussion department. The professors there are all very supportive from the percussion department to the large ensemble conductors. They are also intense. Pressure is there for sure but never have I heard that they cross the line into mean ever.

As for my own son, I have an agreement with his studio teacher that he is to have his foot implanted firmly up the boys behind. He assures me ever time we see him at concerts that it is. The pressure is intense but the kids in the school are amazing.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-19-2015, 03:14 PM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: On teaching

Maybe I should've pointed out that I'm talking about "tough love" teaching. Probably tougher than what they do today?

It would be interesting to see ages with the responses, like I know Hollywood Jim is older than me, so he can relate. Like I said, it's probably generational. But when KamaK asks if I play because I enjoy it - I could similarly ask if everyone does their regular job because they enjoy it. Probably not 100% of the time - that's why they call it a job. I love playing but when you're working there's always stuff you don't want to do. If I enjoyed my playing that means I wouldn't be compromising for the person who hired me. Meaning I'd never get hired.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-19-2015, 04:01 PM
Hollywood Jim's Avatar
Hollywood Jim Hollywood Jim is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
Maybe I should've pointed out that I'm talking about "tough love" teaching. Probably tougher than what they do today?

It would be interesting to see ages with the responses, like I know Hollywood Jim is older than me, so he can relate. Like I said, it's probably generational. But when KamaK asks if I play because I enjoy it - I could similarly ask if everyone does their regular job because they enjoy it. Probably not 100% of the time - that's why they call it a job. I love playing but when you're working there's always stuff you don't want to do. If I enjoyed my playing that means I wouldn't be compromising for the person who hired me. Meaning I'd never get hired.
I just thought of a good example of why a teacher should teach you how to play along with learning how to push yourself over the difficult parts.
Remember when Bo was let go from his mouse drumming job. What did he do? Did he lay down and quit? I know he felt like doing that.
No, he picked himself up and made stuff happen for himself.


.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-19-2015, 04:15 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 22,338
Default Re: On teaching

At 66 my teaching days are over. I have a teaching degree and can tell you that maybe in 1950 in Parochial school this kind of thing may have worked, but people are much smarter these days and will find a less abusive teacher and accomplish the same things. A classroom teacher would never get away with this kind of thing so why would someone pay for a private instructor to act this way. My degree is in teaching Phys. Ed. from K-12. I have heard all of the jokes about , "them than can do, them that can't teach.", and it is bunk. People, like me, spend a lot of money going to school to learn how to teach a particular subject and in my case had to learn some sports and games and then demonstrate how to teach them. Anyone that puts up with abuse from any teacher, especially a private one, because they have a reputation for turning out good students is foolish. I used to coach 118 swimmers five nights a week, aged 6-18 and got great results by just being a teacher and friend. It also helped that they knew that I still swam competitively, and were just as interested in how I did at meets as I was of them.
__________________
Johnny. Pictured left to right, Bermuda, Weird Al, Grunt.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-19-2015, 04:46 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Bo,

I understand what you're saying. People want education in general to be "fun and exciting" I see that every day as a public school elementary teacher.

I also have a son in a major music conservatory here on the east coast. Famous school and percussion department. The professors there are all very supportive from the percussion department to the large ensemble conductors. They are also intense. Pressure is there for sure but never have I heard that they cross the line into mean ever.

As for my own son, I have an agreement with his studio teacher that he is to have his foot implanted firmly up the boys behind. He assures me ever time we see him at concerts that it is. The pressure is intense but the kids in the school are amazing.
None of my bisiness, but, is the boy doing this cos he wants to, or cos you want him to? From the above remark it would sound like the latter. Do you think the teacher being continualy on his case is a good thing? I always thought we did this cos we like and enjoy it. The only pressure put on me, drumming wise, ever, was and is the pressure I put on myself.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-19-2015, 05:04 PM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
At 66 my teaching days are over. I have a teaching degree and can tell you that maybe in 1950 in Parochial school this kind of thing may have worked, but people are much smarter these days and will find a less abusive teacher and accomplish the same things. A classroom teacher would never get away with this kind of thing so why would someone pay for a private instructor to act this way. My degree is in teaching Phys. Ed. from K-12. I have heard all of the jokes about , "them than can do, them that can't teach.", and it is bunk. People, like me, spend a lot of money going to school to learn how to teach a particular subject and in my case had to learn some sports and games and then demonstrate how to teach them. Anyone that puts up with abuse from any teacher, especially a private one, because they have a reputation for turning out good students is foolish. I used to coach 118 swimmers five nights a week, aged 6-18 and got great results by just being a teacher and friend. It also helped that they knew that I still swam competitively, and were just as interested in how I did at meets as I was of them.
Good point, and I want to say that I'm not for one way or another, I'm just wondering out loud. Obviously, this whole thing can go south and we can start jumping on each other about how the education system should be or what's wrong with it, and that's not my intent. And maybe I'm not being clear, but I'm not talking about abuse in the traditional sense, so maybe my definition of "tough love" is different from others? I would never advocate people being abused.

But, once you've passed through high school and gone into college, how much of it are you willing to take? If it's all fun and games, do you accomplish anything? Do you want it bad enough? I'm amazed when I see some of the young people come in for auditions (both as being a musician and being a sound technician) here in our industry - what they know is incredible and sometimes I feel guilty that I never pushed myself that far on my own to be that prepped (or over-prepped?) for a position. Of course, it only amazes me sometimes because being on the job, I'm certainly not blind to the human nature for slacking, and have done a bit of that myself. And it makes me wonder if they got that way because their instructors were always nice, or if their instructors suggested they do alot more homework to push themselves over the top?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-19-2015, 05:11 PM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
None of my bisiness, but, is the boy doing this cos he wants to, or cos you want him to? From the above remark it would sound like the latter. Do you think the teacher being continualy on his case is a good thing? I always thought we did this cos we like and enjoy it. The only pressure put on me, drumming wise, ever, was and is the pressure I put on myself.
This situation sounds like the boy is in college, doesn't it? If the parent talks to his instructors, I would assume the child and the parent understand why he's there and that the child made the decision to be there. So it's ok for the instructor to be kicking him in the ass (if that's what's actually happening). I suppose I'm saying that once a legal adult, you're allowed to make your own decisions, right?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-19-2015, 05:51 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is online now
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,137
Default Re: On teaching

My take on it is people are getting softer. Manliness is at an all time low. The media supports the image of the castrated/pw/uneffective male and it's reflected in the population. Everybody wants easy and fast and hard work is getting pushed out the door. I just believe these are all symptoms of the softening of society.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-19-2015, 05:52 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
This situation sounds like the boy is in college, doesn't it? If the parent talks to his instructors, I would assume the child and the parent understand why he's there and that the child made the decision to be there. So it's ok for the instructor to be kicking him in the ass (if that's what's actually happening). I suppose I'm saying that once a legal adult, you're allowed to make your own decisions, right?



I have no problem with that statement at all. It just sounded to me like the drumming may not be the childs thing but the parents. If the child made the decision to be there the tutor would not have to be kicking him in the ass, surely?

I have long experience of coaching junior athletics and if a parent told me to give there child a continual hard time I would refuse, point blank. Music, and indeed athletics, is a pastime or hobby that for some become a lifetimes passion.....but its there own passion. Supportive parents are a blessing, pushy parents are a pain.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2015, 06:04 PM
WhoIsTony?
This message has been deleted by WhoIsTony?.
  #16  
Old 04-19-2015, 06:31 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 22,338
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
Good point, and I want to say that I'm not for one way or another, I'm just wondering out loud. Obviously, this whole thing can go south and we can start jumping on each other about how the education system should be or what's wrong with it, and that's not my intent. And maybe I'm not being clear, but I'm not talking about abuse in the traditional sense, so maybe my definition of "tough love" is different from others? I would never advocate people being abused.

But, once you've passed through high school and gone into college, how much of it are you willing to take? If it's all fun and games, do you accomplish anything? Do you want it bad enough? I'm amazed when I see some of the young people come in for auditions (both as being a musician and being a sound technician) here in our industry - what they know is incredible and sometimes I feel guilty that I never pushed myself that far on my own to be that prepped (or over-prepped?) for a position. Of course, it only amazes me sometimes because being on the job, I'm certainly not blind to the human nature for slacking, and have done a bit of that myself. And it makes me wonder if they got that way because their instructors were always nice, or if their instructors suggested they do alot more homework to push themselves over the top?
I am to trying to defend the educational system at all. I am defending people. Going from high school to college is not the point. That's saying high school is over and now it's time to be a man or an adult. Not so. People in college are still people and they will learn and expand when they are ready. The time frame is different for everyone. A student that is paying for college or for private lessons in anything should not need that much motivation. A good teacher will draw that out of them with out being, loud, abusive, threatening, whatever. I took seven girls on my swim team to the Nationals. Not because of what I did but because they had a goal and I was just there to guide. They knew that if they wanted to do well they were going to have to work for it. I was there to guide.

Larry, is the manliness in women also at an all time low? It has to do with maturity, and that again is different with everyone. Mature people can motivate themselves. I think or at least hope that we have evolved to some degree where the whip or switch is no longer a tool for motivation. I agree that giving everyone a ribbon for being there is not the right thing to do. That they should be earned, but it's not the people participating that are making the rules, it's the generation ahead of them. If your son or daughter can't play dodge ball it's not heir fault but their parents fault. In most cases these things come down to money.
The school system is not going to get sued because someone got hurt
playing a game.
There are no accidents anymore. Someone is always at fault. Not my feeling, but those in charge.
__________________
Johnny. Pictured left to right, Bermuda, Weird Al, Grunt.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 04-19-2015, 06:41 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is online now
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,137
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post

Larry, is the manliness in women also at an all time low?
Doesn't apply, I'm just talking about men, in an overall blanket statement. Not everyone, I am referring to the male population as a whole, compared to say my father's generation. Mine was close to the first generation to have it really easy. My Dad, when he was a boy, lived in a dirt floor shack with little heat in the winter. The easier people have it, the softer they get. Just for fairness and clarity, I include myself in the softee generation. I can clearly see the differences in mine and later generations compared to prior generations. IMO, men as a whole are less manly, that's the only way I can describe it.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 04-19-2015, 06:53 PM
GruntersDad's Avatar
GruntersDad GruntersDad is offline
Administrator - Mayor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gulf Coast Seminole, Florida
Posts: 22,338
Default Re: On teaching

Understood.........................
__________________
Johnny. Pictured left to right, Bermuda, Weird Al, Grunt.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 04-19-2015, 07:01 PM
Jeff Almeyda's Avatar
Jeff Almeyda Jeff Almeyda is offline
Senior Consultant
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,774
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
My take on it is people are getting softer. Manliness is at an all time low. The media supports the image of the castrated/pw/uneffective male and it's reflected in the population. Everybody wants easy and fast and hard work is getting pushed out the door. I just believe these are all symptoms of the softening of society.
George Carlin did an incredible rant on the pussification of America. One of the best routines anyone has ever done.
__________________
Either you have a purpose behind your expression... or you don't.
JoJo Mayer
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 04-19-2015, 07:02 PM
bigd bigd is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 522
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
[/b]


I have no problem with that statement at all. It just sounded to me like the drumming may not be the childs thing but the parents. If the child made the decision to be there the tutor would not have to be kicking him in the ass, surely?

I have long experience of coaching junior athletics and if a parent told me to give there child a continual hard time I would refuse, point blank. Music, and indeed athletics, is a pastime or hobby that for some become a lifetimes passion.....but its there own passion. Supportive parents are a blessing, pushy parents are a pain.
Mikel,

Bo is correct the boy is in college. He plays because that's what is in him. It's in every breath he takes. It's more then a love of playing. It's who he is. He is 1,000,000 times more intense about it then most people will ever be including myself. At 19, he and his school colleagues play at a level most of us couldn't dream of. He is chasing greatness.

Sorry if it comes off as being pushy sporting parents that's not even close to what this is. It's very hard to understand for people not familiar with conservatory situations.

As for the agreement we have, it is in jest as this child eats, sleeps and breathes the percussion world.

BigD
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 04-19-2015, 07:11 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is online now
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,137
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post
George Carlin did an incredible rant on the pussification of America. One of the best routines anyone has ever done.
Oh I have to check that out. George was the man.
__________________
Levis/Hanes/Timberlands/Custom made socks
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 04-19-2015, 07:44 PM
Magenta's Avatar
Magenta Magenta is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Gwlad Cymru
Posts: 3,208
Default Re: On teaching

Ok, here's my two penn'orth:

Western society has long viewed children/young people as a manifestation of the Devil, and treated them as such (see Michael Morpurgo, "The Invention of Childhood"). It was the norm, and nobody turned a hair or batted an eyelid. This was a phenomenon of its time.

More recently, considerably more enlightened views have obtained. Children/young people are acknowledged as individuals. They are listened to, and what they have to say is regarded as valid - and thank goodness for it. This is why historic child-abusers are now being brought to account. If these victims had known that they would have been believed decades ago, many children would have been saved.

As for "hard" vs. "soft", the hardness should come from the individual: "I'm not good enough, I have to do better." The softness should come from the teacher: "You are good enough to do better." And it's the teacher's job to motivate the student to be hard on him/herself.
__________________
Thinly veiled angel

Ladies & gentlemen, I've suffered for my art. Now it's your turn (Neil Innes)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 04-19-2015, 08:30 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigd View Post
Mikel,

Bo is correct the boy is in college. He plays because that's what is in him. It's in every breath he takes. It's more then a love of playing. It's who he is. He is 1,000,000 times more intense about it then most people will ever be including myself. At 19, he and his school colleagues play at a level most of us couldn't dream of. He is chasing greatness.

Sorry if it comes off as being pushy sporting parents that's not even close to what this is. It's very hard to understand for people not familiar with conservatory situations.

As for the agreement we have, it is in jest as this child eats, sleeps and breathes the percussion world.

BigD
If he is 19 then he is an adult, not a child, that puts a completely different slant on the whole thing. I was not taking a pop, just being a big mouth, as usual.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 04-19-2015, 08:44 PM
KamaK KamaK is online now
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: East Coast
Posts: 5,780
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
If he is 19 then he is an adult, not a child, that puts a completely different slant on the whole thing. I was not taking a pop, just being a big mouth, as usual.
I think it's novel that we still use a measure of time to determine the maturity of another person. Silly humans.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 04-19-2015, 08:49 PM
Magenta's Avatar
Magenta Magenta is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Gwlad Cymru
Posts: 3,208
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I think it's novel that we still use a measure of time to determine the maturity of another person. Silly humans.
I was going to say that, only less succinctly, and I'd replace "novel" with "astonishing".
__________________
Thinly veiled angel

Ladies & gentlemen, I've suffered for my art. Now it's your turn (Neil Innes)
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:11 PM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I think it's novel that we still use a measure of time to determine the maturity of another person. Silly humans.
But that's how it is. On the one hand, if it's your kid, and he's just not growing up yet, you forgive that and hope they get along like they're supposed to. But if I'm the adult watching stupid kids do what stupid kids do, then I'm frustrated that the rest of us have to deal with somebody being "only a lad". We often say things like "when is that guy going to grow up?"

And for many, 18 is that magic number (24 now for that kid to be buying his own health insurance too - so they get a break there). At 18, if you commit crime, you are now tried as a adult. Yes, its crazy to assume that at a certain age you're emotionally and mentally ready to be an adult, but those are the breaks. And I know, I have people here at work in their later 30s that I just wouldn't trust to make an important decision because they haven't been cooking in the oven long enough, but fortunately I don't have to be responsible for them.

At a certain point I didn't want to continue to be a burden on my parents, and I started pulling my own weight. It got even better when I finally realized I can make happen whatever I want to make happen. A lot of people don't get that either, those are the ones you see standing around waiting for something to happen to them.

I'm sorry, maybe this is one of those topics I shouldn't have brought up, like politics. This is so determined by what we personally want to believe in. I get Grunters points about being the guide, yet I wonder how good I would've gotten had no one "kicked me in the arse" for being musically stupid on some things. I mean, I'm always grateful for the things that people have asked me to do, and I know just being able to do that is a lot of time spent in the practice rooms getting my act together, but I wonder if I would've gotten to that level without getting kicked around about it. Or, had I been guided by a friend instead, maybe I would've had an even better career?

I don't play Monday-morning quarterback very well, so I won't ;)
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:18 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
I think it's novel that we still use a measure of time to determine the maturity of another person. Silly humans.
I was talking legaly not emotionaly. I am 63 and still dont considder myself a "grown up". In Britain you can vote at 18, I wont even begin to describe what might happen if voting was "maturity" tested.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 04-19-2015, 09:30 PM
geezer's Avatar
geezer geezer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: San Francisco (Irish ex-pat)
Posts: 421
Default Re: On teaching

I work in education and one thing I'm a firm believer in is, as an instructor, making an effort to learn something brand new myself on a regular basis - it allows me to empathize with my students and connect with that feeling of inability to grasp a concept, or clumsiness with the mechanics of something. It's easy to become frustrated with students when something seems so clear to you because you've been doing it for so long, but for the novice they can't get their head around it. I'm pretty bolshy and wouldn't respond well myself to someone berating me in the name of "teaching". Someone else already mentioned drive coming from within and I agree - I think teachers can inspire students but ultimately the drive has to come from themselves. From the age of 11 onwards I played drums and guitar a minimum of 3 hours a day, every day, because I wanted to, not because of parental pressure or being pushed by a teacher.

I do think Anthony has a point though, as regards a generation of kids/young adults who are being raised to be helpless. I see a common thread in many of my students who are in their early '20's (I'm in my forties by the way) where they lack problem solving skills and just expect all the answers to be handed to them on a plate.
__________________
2015 Gretsch Brooklyn/Bosphorus
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 04-20-2015, 05:29 AM
Anon La Ply's Avatar
Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
Renegade
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Cyberspace
Posts: 5,512
Default Re: On teaching

The older generation always thinks the last generation were pussies. That's probably been happening since tribal times. The gentrification of teaching is symptomatic of broader society.

It was once thought that "the stick" approach was the most efficacious but studies consistently demonstrated that rewards get better results than negative feedback. That's generally. Some individuals, however, need a prod to get going and do best with "tough love". Others prefer to self motivate and find rudeness more of an immature distraction than a motivator.

A perceptive and flexible teacher will adapt to suit a student's best mode of learning for the particular material.
__________________
Soundcloud
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 04-20-2015, 06:07 AM
julius julius is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 89
Default Re: On teaching

If someone is teaching me drums I expect them to be completely blunt and honest about my drum playing.

I don't expect them to attack my character or make judgments about what kind of person I am based on my playing. If I'm not working as hard as I should at a lesson, then by all means say so. But don't assume I am lazy and don't want to do the lesson...maybe other things in my life have priorities. That is a really fine distinction which some teachers are unable to make.

If, of course, you equate criticism of your playing with criticism of yourself, well, I am not sure how you learn. I'm not on your planet.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 04-20-2015, 09:51 AM
John Lamb's Avatar
John Lamb John Lamb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 482
Default Re: On teaching

Olympic level coaches give 3x more praise than criticism.

I loved Whiplash (but had to work to ignore the inaccuracies). I've run into teachers who did this to their students - some still do and don't get fired. If a student doesn't complain, nothing happens.

Music is about connection, not about working hard. Yes, you have to drive yourself to be the absolute best, but what is the point of it, for your student? The point is to make good music, you can't do that when you have someone yelling at you. If they need to work on their physical technique or their knowledge or musical technique, then there are ways of getting them to do it, if they want. Punishment is a terrible motivator that will kind of work, but NEVER outperform honest, intrinsic motivation from someone who *wants* to hear honest feedback to improve. A teachers job is to uncover that motivation and provide feedback and direction.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 04-20-2015, 03:57 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by julius View Post
If someone is teaching me drums I expect them to be completely blunt and honest about my drum playing.

I don't expect them to attack my character or make judgments about what kind of person I am based on my playing. If I'm not working as hard as I should at a lesson, then by all means say so. But don't assume I am lazy and don't want to do the lesson...maybe other things in my life have priorities. That is a really fine distinction which some teachers are unable to make.

If, of course, you equate criticism of your playing with criticism of yourself, well, I am not sure how you learn. I'm not on your planet.
If you are paying someone to teach you then there is a huge difference between them being honest and being abusive.

If the instructor feels you are not making progress there are realy only two answers.

A: For whatever reason you have not done the work. Lazieness, lack of time etc etc.

B: You find the lesons less than interesting or motivating, so you dont want to put in the time. Discuss this with the teacher, or find a teacher that motivates and makes it interesting so you do want to work at it.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 04-21-2015, 02:40 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,964
Default Re: On teaching

What I like most about Whiplash is it has generated conversations like this about drums and teaching. Even if you hate the movie, I think this stuff is interesting to talk about.

I just have trouble believing there is a single correct approach to teaching. I'd like to see some studies that try to correlate results with different styles of teaching. I'm sure they exist, I just haven't bothered to look for them.

Without knowing the answer, I would speculate that different styles work with different students. Some might respond to a soft approach while others might need a harder kick in the ass.

The argument Fletcher makes in the movie that greats won't become great without being beaten into achieving it seems like it might apply to some, but not all. I think some people are so self-motivated to become great that such an approach isn't necessary at all, they just need a road map on how to get there, without the boot camp part.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-21-2015, 04:07 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
What I like most about Whiplash is it has generated conversations like this about drums and teaching. Even if you hate the movie, I think this stuff is interesting to talk about.

I just have trouble believing there is a single correct approach to teaching. I'd like to see some studies that try to correlate results with different styles of teaching. I'm sure they exist, I just haven't bothered to look for them.

Without knowing the answer, I would speculate that different styles work with different students. Some might respond to a soft approach while others might need a harder kick in the ass.

The argument Fletcher makes in the movie that greats won't become great without being beaten into achieving it seems like it might apply to some, but not all. I think some people are so self-motivated to become great that such an approach isn't necessary at all, they just need a road map on how to get there, without the boot camp part.
As I say, everyone is different and finds motivation, or is motivated, in different ways. There will be masochists who thrive on being verbaly abused, and worse, but very few I would guess.

At work we had a manager who was a biggot and a bully and a few people would work hard for him. Lately we have a manager who is a real people person, leads from the front and cares about his team. Everyone on the staff now goes the extra mile for this guy cos they also care about him.

Why give yourself, and those you manage or teach, the constant stress of bullying and shouting and having to check things are done to your liking, when being nice and caring about others as personalities works so much better and everyone is happy and motivated. There are nice ways to kick someones arse if they are not doing what they should.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-21-2015, 05:00 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,061
Default Re: On teaching

I had a similar experience at the conservatory I attended... not as harsh as whiplash, but it wasn't all hand-holding and love either.

My first ensemble, the professor gave us his own arrangement of a Cole Porter trunk song (Everything I Love) which was in 7/4.

All the players had just met and were of varying skill levels. We didn't even make it out of the A section before we stopped and each of us got ripped apart. I distinctly remember the teacher telling the pano player he played like a "See You Next Tuesday".

By the end of that semester, we'd all learned so much and were really tight. And we the teacher began to warm up to us. I think he even told me once that my solo "wasn't bad at all".

Fast forward to working as a gigging musician, and I've had to deal with the same sorts of issues with band leaders.

Being a musician is just like any trade (carpentry, plumbing, et cetera) we learn through the apprenticeship model, and then get cut loose and have to make it on our own out in the world. If you don't have thick skin, you won't last very long.

Bottomline is that it might be harsh, but it prepares you for the realities of being a musician. It's enormous fun, but it's a cutthroat world, and it's highly competitive. You don't want to end up completely bitter and jaded, but you do need to form some callouses.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2015, 06:26 PM
WhoIsTony?
This message has been deleted by WhoIsTony?.
  #36  
Old 04-21-2015, 06:32 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcspears View Post
I had a similar experience at the conservatory I attended... not as harsh as whiplash, but it wasn't all hand-holding and love either.

My first ensemble, the professor gave us his own arrangement of a Cole Porter trunk song (Everything I Love) which was in 7/4.

All the players had just met and were of varying skill levels. We didn't even make it out of the A section before we stopped and each of us got ripped apart. I distinctly remember the teacher telling the pano player he played like a "See You Next Tuesday".

By the end of that semester, we'd all learned so much and were really tight. And we the teacher began to warm up to us. I think he even told me once that my solo "wasn't bad at all".

Fast forward to working as a gigging musician, and I've had to deal with the same sorts of issues with band leaders.

Being a musician is just like any trade (carpentry, plumbing, et cetera) we learn through the apprenticeship model, and then get cut loose and have to make it on our own out in the world. If you don't have thick skin, you won't last very long.

Bottomline is that it might be harsh, but it prepares you for the realities of being a musician. It's enormous fun, but it's a cutthroat world, and it's highly competitive. You don't want to end up completely bitter and jaded, but you do need to form some callouses.
Not so. I was an apprentice back in the late 60s, in a factory, the old 10,000 hours tradesman. The people were fantastic. You had to grow up fast but I was never more nurtured and helped, by both my tradesman/mentor and the toolroom manager. My abiding memories of the 5 years are of constant laughs and great jokes. The work had to be done but its done better if you enjoy it. Wonderfull times.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-21-2015, 07:32 PM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Not so. I was an apprentice back in the late 60s, in a factory, the old 10,000 hours tradesman. The people were fantastic. You had to grow up fast but I was never more nurtured and helped, by both my tradesman/mentor and the toolroom manager. My abiding memories of the 5 years are of constant laughs and great jokes. The work had to be done but its done better if you enjoy it. Wonderfull times.
I would almost argue that your situation is not the same thing as going out to land a spot in the Stan Kenton Orchestra, however. Or, dare I say, a spot with a big entertainment corporation where hundreds show up for a crack at getting one of three positions. Or is it?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 04-21-2015, 07:48 PM
mikel mikel is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Midlands. England.
Posts: 2,266
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
I would almost argue that your situation is not the same thing as going out to land a spot in the Stan Kenton Orchestra, however. Or, dare I say, a spot with a big entertainment corporation where hundreds show up for a crack at getting one of three positions. Or is it?
I was just responding to a post comparing the conservatory experienc to an apprenticeship. Thats all. I served the old apprenticeship and was not brutalised by it to "Grow up" or get tough. You tend to toughen up as you mature anyway and lose your innocence.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 04-21-2015, 09:28 PM
tcspears tcspears is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 1,061
Default Re: On teaching

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikel View Post
I was just responding to a post comparing the conservatory experienc to an apprenticeship.
I guess I've always compared the musician part to the apprentice model, not necessarily the conservatory part.

Maybe not all the trades are susceptible to the fierce competition that we face in music. Also unions could be a factor, I have several friends that are in the musician's union, and they (almost) never have to worry about finding work. (although they all complain about senority...until they have seniority).

In the same way that we might run into recent Berklee grads taking a gig that we would have got because they charge less, I thought other trades would run into younger kids constantly undercutting them. Maybe it's a little more pronounced in music...
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 04-21-2015, 09:48 PM
Otto Otto is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,579
Default Re: On teaching

Abusive behavior on either the student or teachers part is bad teaching/learning theory.

Abusive behavior on either a band leader or band members part is bad business theory.

Abusive behavior is usually justified with some idiotic rational...nothing justifies it.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com