Rant: Who's in charge at Gibraltar??

[bermuda]

Okay, I think we can agree that the Gibraltar Catapult pedal from 4 or 5 years ago was a flop (and deservedly so) and their new, double zipper flat-folding bags have raised some "solution in search of a problem" observations. Based on those 2 products, I suggested that they're not consulting drummers on these ideas, and that whatever committee approves them for manufacture probably has no drummers on it.

Well, here's another for ya. Granted, this undoubtedly came out long before the Catapult pedal, but the design flaw is consistent with Gibraltar not thinking things through.

Consider this hi-hat clutch:



I recently bought this as a spare for gigs where a kit is provided, and I bring cymbals, snare and a pedal. Often, there's not a clutch, so I now pack one with my cymbals. I used it for the first time the other night, and was shocked at the egregious design flaw.

Yes, it has the unthreaded portion so the cymbals don't encounter needless friction (and so they don't wear away the threads...) But the threaded portion where the lock nuts live is too short - the nuts can't come down far enough to hold the cymbal (and the bottom plastic nut only screws on so far, then stops.)

The result: the cymbal is loose. No, I mean really loose, like on a cymbal stand flopping around loose! The foot action is greatly affected, as is playing open-close patterns.

Now, this isn't the end of the world, it was $11, and I have other working clutches laying around (guess I should have just nabbed one of those in the first place!) But it's another example of someone at Gibraltar apparently not actually trying this - with a cymbal, the way it was intended to be used - before manufacturing and distributing it! If they'd first run it by a drummer or two, they would have caught the problem immediately, and the upper threads could have been extended the necessary 3/8" or so.

I suppose I can get some washers and insert them between the lock nuts and the top felt to help push it down and secure the cymbal better, but why should I have to do that? And no, it's not that I want it to be a tight fit, which is good, because that would definitely be impossible with this clutch as-is. I just don't want the cymbal flopping around and affecting how I play. I'm a kick/snare/hat player, and the other night was very distracting for me.

So again I ask, who's in charge over there??

Bermuda

[bermuda]

Okay, so I dug up some nice plumbing washers and all should be well:



A quick fix, but that's not the point.

Oh yeah... GET OFF OF MY LAWN!

[KamaK]

In my experience, if it were truly made by Gibraltar, it would have Gibraltar casted into the wing nut and no less than 3 Gibraltar stickers attached to it with an insoluble adhesive. It would also come with a Gibraltar bubble medallion, and a Gibraltar sticker for your kit.

[bermuda]

Yeah... where's my sticker!!??

Actually it does have the name stamped into one side of the wing bolt, so it's legit. Maybe if someone else had made it, it would have worked properly in the first place!

[drumdevil9]

Gibraltar have occasional issues. I have the quick release clutch and it had threads all the way down. I had to grind them down in the center myself so my cymbals wouldn't get key-holed. I think they have since addressed this issue. But that was dumb.

[Bo Eder]

I've been avoiding all things Gibraltar for some years. I was at one time liking their flat-based hardware, but only the straight cymbal stands made sense. The other stands, booms, snare and hi-hat, didn't make me feel confident.

[porter]

Originally Posted by KamaK

In my experience, if it were truly made by Gibraltar, it would have Gibraltar casted into the wing nut and no less than 3 Gibraltar stickers attached to it with an insoluble adhesive. It would also come with a Gibraltar bubble medallion, and a Gibraltar sticker for your kit.

Ahahahaha :) don't forget the adjustable-size ballcap, plus a "Brent's Hang" 3-DVD set.

Gibraltar definitely could use some paring down of their catalog. Though it is understandable how they got to the "Samsung-of-percussion" state they're in now, not much one can innovate in hardware. Still, good prices :)

[KamaK]

Originally Posted by porter

Ahahahaha :) don't forget the adjustable-size ballcap, plus a "Brent's Hang" 3-DVD set.

LOLOLOL

While I really like the 9600 series hardware pack I own, I have the suspicion that Gibraltar is the Foldgers of drum hardware.

I keep a can of Foldgers in my freezer, as an emergency backup for when I accidentally run out of real coffee. It makes a completely unoffensive, yet uninspiring cup of coffee, and is available in more varieties than I care to recount.

[drumdevil9]

Though in Gibraltar's defense, they do make an incredible variety of great products. I also love my flat-base stands, Stealth rack, thrones, etc. I don't think they are some generic brand without good ideas.

[ron pangborn]

Originally Posted by drumdevil9

Gibraltar have occasional issues. I have the quick release clutch and it had threads all the way down. I had to grind them down in the center myself so my cymbals wouldn't get key-holed. I think they have since addressed this issue. But that was dumb.

Yea they've addressed that quick realease clutch issue.... and made it annoyingly similiar to Bermuda's issue. Now the threads don't go down far enough for the cymbal to be somewhat tight. Makes me wonder, as did Berm, does anyone who actually plays drums have anything to do with the design of these peices?

I've been a Gibraltar hardware user since the late 80's when I was an early endorser. I still have a hi hat from back then that works beautifully. Some of these newer items just seem to lack a bit of insight that might come from someone actually using them on the kit, while playing....Anyone from Gibraltar out there reading this?

[larryace]

My Gibraltar story is a few months back I needed a set of tom isolation mounts, you know generic RIMS mounts. I could not locate a set anywhere online for sale, so I bought some real RIMS mount. I tried guitar center, musicians friend, music 123, amazon, interstate music, nothing. I thought that was odd.

It does make one wonder who OK'd the design.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by ron pangborn

Makes me wonder, as did Berm, does anyone who actually plays drums have anything to do with the design of these peices?

It's hard to imagine that there's not some consulting with a potential end-user, but it sure seems like they're just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. That's got to be the case with that pedal. I knew when I saw it at NAMM that it would fail, and I did actually play one and confirmed it within seconds.

Seriously, if they'd simply talked to a drummer and explained what they were doing, and how they'd accomplish it, that drummer would have advised them that the pedal was a mistake.

For those who don't recall why the pedal failed, there were two issues. One, the footboard basically pushes an arm, hinged on the base and with the beater attached at the top end. It's fairly lengthy and leveraged, which sounds like it might be kinda powerful, right? But there's so much momentum at the beater caused by the fulcrum of the arm being at the opposite end, the pedal has a sluggish, unresponsive feel. 8th notes are an effort, and 16ths are out of the question - the beater simply can't respond fast enough. Second, the 7footboard isn't connected to the beater arm. There's a roller at the tip of the footboard that runs up and down the arm as it pushes it towards the head, and back again. But this disconnect is even more apparent when trying to get any speed: the arm doesn't follow the footboard back very quickly, and the footboard rattles. It's a very weird feel to the foot, because no other pedal does this... and for good reason!

Sorry to rant, but a drummer could not have possibly been involved with the design or approval of that pedal, and shops are stuck with them. Even at a blowout price of $100 or less, nobody wants them. I keep promising to pick one up as a museum piece, it would probably go great with my Pearl Vari-Pitch snare! At least that idea had merit, it just didn't do exactly what Pearl had hoped in terms of being a multi-tunable snare.

I can't wait to see the Gibraltar bags at NAMM, and hear the reactions from those who get to handle them in person. I'm pretty sure they didn't run those by a drummer, either. What drummer would deliberately create extra work during both set-up and tear-down, and pay more for such that product?

Sorry, Gibraltar is just not thinking on some of these things.

FWIW, the clutch works perfectly, after I monkeyed with it.

Bermuda

PS - hmmmm, my spellcheck didn't challenge the word monkeyed... :)

[porter]

Originally Posted by ron pangborn

Yea they've addressed that quick realease clutch issue.... and made it annoyingly similiar to Bermuda's issue. Now the threads don't go down far enough for the cymbal to be somewhat tight. Makes me wonder, as did Berm, does anyone who actually plays drums have anything to do with the design of these peices?

My QR clutch with the smooth center doesn't have this issue. Maybe it's just a taste difference.

I should throw in my defense as well- I have the QR clutch, the QR drop clutch, the 9607 no-leg hihat, and they're all great. The drop clutch looks like a "leave it to the intern" design job, but Gibraltar do make a lot of stuff that's up to the industry standard.

[bermuda]

Here's the Catapult pedal. It should be obvious - without even having to play it - why it didn't do well.



Ya know, I'm gonna buy one, just because it's so ridiculous. Will look good next to this one:



:)

Bermuda

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by porter

... but Gibraltar do make a lot of stuff that's up to the industry standard.

Agreed, which is why it's so baffling that they'd fail with some things. I know that not every company hits a home run with every item, but these Gibraltar gaffs were easily preventable, or could have been better executed, by just chatting with a semi-experienced drummer or two. I could have told Gibraltar in about 60 seconds why the Catapult wouldn't sell, and it would only take 30 seconds to explain why their new bags will meet with resistance. 20 seconds for that clutch. :)

As it happens, they have new pedals that are pretty smooth, with a traditional, proven design.

Bermuda

[bobdadruma]

Like my Mama always said, "You gotta take the bad with the good"
I have several quick release style clutches from Gibraltar and they are excellent.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by bobdadruma

Like my Mama always said, "You gotta take the bad with the good"
I have several quick release style clutches from Gibraltar and they are excellent.

I know, I use one on the road and it's great!

So why can't they make a standard clutch that holds the cymbal in the same way? Why do two models of the same product, presumably intended to accomplish the same thing, have such different results? One's great, the other has to be rigged.

Gibraltar needs a drummer on board to say things like "hey, this clutch doesn't work like this clutch, drummers won't like it" and "this pedal feels sluggish and isn't responsive, and the footboard gets away from my foot when I try to go faster."

Bermuda

[porter]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Sheezus.

Originally Posted by bermuda

Gibraltar needs a drummer on board to say things like "hey, this clutch doesn't work like this clutch, drummers won't like it" and "this pedal feels sluggish and isn't responsive, and the footboard gets away from my foot when I try to go faster."

No arguments there :) Weirdly, I know they make another clutch that is also in the low-end price range with the same tightening mechanism as the QR clutch but with a threaded base. You'd think that they wouldn't need a slightly lower priced version with a different tightening mechanism, but yet, here we are?

[DrumEatDrum]

Gibraltar always has some hit and misses.

It is baffling. But at the same time, I've seen some baffling releases from almost everyone at one point or another.

[yakbutter]

[Midnite Zephyr]

I have standard clutch from Sonor that looks much like this Gibralter one. Come to think of it, the top hat is a little bit floppier than I'd like it to be, but not as bad as you are describing the Gibralter one here. Maybe they engineered a bad copy of Sonor's clutch design.

[Red Menace]

I remember seeing an older thread where the designer of the Catapult pedal shared his thoughts and put up with a good bit criticism too. Much respect for him defending his creation but that still is an abortion of a pedal.

John, I do think its a little heavy handed to discount all of Gibraltar's offerings based on a bad;y designed HH clutch and that abysmally designed pedal. After all, let's not forget that useless remote hi hat that lacks all the positioning versatility of a cable hat and the terrible response of the cable hat.

I really do like their flat base stands though. I also have a BD mounted cymbal arm on order.

[Les Ismore]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Okay, so I dug up some nice plumbing washers and all should be well:



A quick fix, but that's not the point.

Oh yeah... GET OFF OF MY LAWN!

Quite possibly GIBRALTAR could've given the wrong felts with that one hombre.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by yakbutter

In straight engineering terms, that's a neat design in the making. If only it had a second roller on the back of the beater arm such that separation of the arm & pedal plate was impossible, it could be a good pedal. Would need adjustment possibilities looked at too though.

[Reggae_Mangle]

Originally Posted by bermuda

PS - hmmmm, my spellcheck didn't challenge the word monkeyed... :)

Originally Posted by bermuda

... these Gibraltar gaffs were easily preventable...

I think your spell check is broken, Bermuda. Even spell check is two words.

[Reggae_Mangle]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

In straight engineering terms, that's a neat design in the making. If only it had a second roller on the back of the beater arm such that separation of the arm & pedal plate was impossible, it could be a good pedal. Would need adjustment possibilities looked at too though.

A holder for my beer that would flip it to me with the right kind of stroke would be good too. If only....

Of course, I have no idea about the improvements you've suggested. Might be something, but I only have inputs from people who've tried it while forming an opinion on these pedals.

[DrummingAllNightLong]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Okay, I think we can agree that the Gibraltar Catapult pedal from 4 or 5 years ago was a flop (and deservedly so) and their new, double zipper flat-folding bags have raised some "solution in search of a problem" observations. Based on those 2 products, I suggested that they're not consulting drummers on these ideas, and that whatever committee approves them for manufacture probably has no drummers on it.

Well, here's another for ya. Granted, this undoubtedly came out long before the Catapult pedal, but the design flaw is consistent with Gibraltar not thinking things through.

Consider this hi-hat clutch:



I recently bought this as a spare for gigs where a kit is provided, and I bring cymbals, snare and a pedal. Often, there's not a clutch, so I now pack one with my cymbals. I used it for the first time the other night, and was shocked at the egregious design flaw.

Yes, it has the unthreaded portion so the cymbals don't encounter needless friction (and so they don't wear away the threads...) But the threaded portion where the lock nuts live is too short - the nuts can't come down far enough to hold the cymbal (and the bottom plastic nut only screws on so far, then stops.)

The result: the cymbal is loose. No, I mean really loose, like on a cymbal stand flopping around loose! The foot action is greatly affected, as is playing open-close patterns.

Now, this isn't the end of the world, it was $11, and I have other working clutches laying around (guess I should have just nabbed one of those in the first place!) But it's another example of someone at Gibraltar apparently not actually trying this - with a cymbal, the way it was intended to be used - before manufacturing and distributing it! If they'd first run it by a drummer or two, they would have caught the problem immediately, and the upper threads could have been extended the necessary 3/8" or so.

I suppose I can get some washers and insert them between the lock nuts and the top felt to help push it down and secure the cymbal better, but why should I have to do that? And no, it's not that I want it to be a tight fit, which is good, because that would definitely be impossible with this clutch as-is. I just don't want the cymbal flopping around and affecting how I play. I'm a kick/snare/hat player, and the other night was very distracting for me.

So again I ask, who's in charge over there??

Bermuda

Bermuda. I think they sent you the wrong felts as the other fellow mentioned becuase I use that same Hi Hat Clutch and theres no problems with it at all and it is long enough.

[Mikeyboyeee]

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

I've been avoiding all things Gibraltar for some years.

I agree, I've never had a good experience with any Gibraltar gear I've come across over the years and I try to avoid their stuff whenever possible.

Their stuff strikes me as cheap, disposable, barely serviceable and generic.

[bermuda]

I guess the wrong felts are a possibility, although they look like the common size. I can't imagine them needing to be significantly 'taller', when it seems more correct to extend the threads and let the lock nuts do the work.

Bermuda

[brady]

Originally Posted by bermuda

I recently bought this as a spare for gigs where a kit is provided, and I bring cymbals, snare and a pedal. Often, there's not a clutch, so I now pack one with my cymbals. I used it for the first time the other night, and was shocked at the egregious design flaw.

Yes, it has the unthreaded portion so the cymbals don't encounter needless friction (and so they don't wear away the threads...) But the threaded portion where the lock nuts live is too short - the nuts can't come down far enough to hold the cymbal (and the bottom plastic nut only screws on so far, then stops.)

The result: the cymbal is loose. No, I mean really loose, like on a cymbal stand flopping around loose! The foot action is greatly affected, as is playing open-close patterns.

Now, this isn't the end of the world, it was $11, and I have other working clutches laying around (guess I should have just nabbed one of those in the first place!) But it's another example of someone at Gibraltar apparently not actually trying this - with a cymbal, the way it was intended to be used - before manufacturing and distributing it! If they'd first run it by a drummer or two, they would have caught the problem immediately, and the upper threads could have been extended the necessary 3/8" or so.

I suppose I can get some washers and insert them between the lock nuts and the top felt to help push it down and secure the cymbal better, but why should I have to do that? And no, it's not that I want it to be a tight fit, which is good, because that would definitely be impossible with this clutch as-is. I just don't want the cymbal flopping around and affecting how I play. I'm a kick/snare/hat player, and the other night was very distracting for me.

So again I ask, who's in charge over there??

Bermuda

I've wondered the same thing. I use that exact clutch on one of my kits. After messing with it for a while I figured the threads weren't long enough at all. I do appreciate the threadless portion though.

For a fix, I just stuck an extra hi-hat felt on the bottom to fill in the gap. So I have the one on top, and two on the bottom. It works great, but I agree, we shouldn't have to make modifications like this, especially to something as simple as a hi-hat clutch.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by brady

... but I agree, we shouldn't have to make modifications like this, especially to something as simple as a hi-hat clutch.

It's especially frustrating when all of their other clutches do work correctly! There's an obvious flaw on this model.

Perhaps a bad one slipped through?

Ok, new rant: who's doing QC at Gibraltar, Stevie Wonder??

Heh, I wish!

[GeoB]

There is probably only one hi-hat clutch to use. That really stands up and out performs all others.

And since I don't use them I wouldn't know.

[wombat]

Who's in charge at Gibraltar?? The British , much to the annoyance of Spain.....

( boom tish..........)

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by wombat

Who's in charge at Gibraltar?? The British , much to the annoyance of Spain.....

( boom tish..........)

YES! Might shortly exclude Scotland though :( Surely Gibraltar must be THE premier location for a rock festival (again, primarily to annoy the Spanish).

[Brian]

Slightly OT , but I bought a Gibraltar practice pad that sits on the leg, and its too wide/strap too long....the strap won't fasten to my leg. Ugh. I am 5'9 155 so I'd say design flaw.

[BacteriumFendYoke]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

YES! Might shortly exclude Scotland though :( Surely Gibraltar must be THE premier location for a rock festival (again, primarily to annoy the Spanish).

Imagine trying to get in for the festival though with the Spanish authorities acting the way they have been lately.

Annoying mainland Europe is a tradition that lives on in England. I intend to do my bit.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by Brian

I am 5'9 155 so I'd say design flaw.

Agreed ;) ;) ;)

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke

Imagine trying to get in for the festival though with the Spanish authorities acting the way they have been lately.

Annoying mainland Europe is a tradition that lives on in England. I intend to do my bit.

Oh yes, it's good sport ;) Actually, Spain should remember that our net contribution to the EU pot almost exactly replicates their net receipts from the same pot. GET OFF OUR ROCK - DAMMIT!

[BacteriumFendYoke]

I also love how France was classified as a 'Flawed Democracy' in the 2012 democracy index.

1,000 years of annoying them and we still have new material!

[ggmerino]

Gibraltar's model is to make everything and make it cheap. They do make everything though.

I have spent a fortune buying different clutches (maybe an exaggeration- I have 5 clutches) and I have to say I found the perfect one: http://remo.com/portal/products/2/61...hh_clutch.html

It has no threads where the cymbal goes, never gets loose from the pole, has a good spring to keep the cymbal as tight as you intended it to be, quick release bottom nut that due to its design will never fall off or loosen. My quest is done.

[brady]

Originally Posted by ggmerino

Gibraltar's model is to make everything and make it cheap. They do make everything though.

I have spent a fortune buying different clutches (maybe an exaggeration- I have 5 clutches) and I have to say I found the perfect one: http://remo.com/portal/products/2/61...hh_clutch.html

It has no threads where the cymbal goes, never gets loose from the pole, has a good spring to keep the cymbal as tight as you intended it to be, quick release bottom nut that due to its design will never fall off or loosen. My quest is done.

And sure enough, Gibraltar makes one of those too. I actually bought one of those quick release clutches when I really needed one (forgot on at a gig...luckily the music store was 15 minutes away) and it was the only model they had in the store. I like it better much better than the one we are bitching about.

(BTW...I just thought of another First World Problem...)