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  #41  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

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Originally Posted by NerfLad View Post
Sounds like they aren't listening. "The time is in the room" - Thelonious Monk

I agree you should seek greener pastures.
Another saying from Monk's notes was "Make the drummer sound good" :) It should be tattooed on all musicians' foreheads, and especially before they do overdubs. It's always disappointing when your groove suddenly sounds like it's dragging because of toppy overdubs.

For a while I was going to leave my band because they were messing my time up, but didn't. It was the first time I'd been in a band where no one was delusional, crazy, sleazy or emotionally disturbed.

A few years on they have improved heaps - and I learned to play quietly. I did have to simplify my playing, though. Perhaps pros need to be ruthless to keep things on the up and up, but hobbyists can afford to waste a little time if the playing is flawed but fun.
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Our leader, who are in worship
Drummer be thy name
Thy time is strong, thy hats are loud
On stage, as it is in practice
Give us the beat, oh human click
And forgive not our wavering's
As we cannot play in time as a unit
Lead us now, into good timing
And deliver us to greatness
For the leading, and timing, and control is yours
Now and forever
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2014, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Another saying from Monk's notes was "Make the drummer sound good" :) It should be tattooed on all musicians' foreheads, and especially before they do overdubs. It's always disappointing when your groove suddenly sounds like it's dragging because of toppy overdubs.
Ha! I know that feeling all too well. I once replaced a drummer in a band where the recordings were being re-done (same tunes). When I listened to the old versions I thought "this guy swings like a brick; I'll be a huge improvement!" Of course, after the record was done the groove sounded exactly the same as the demos. The isolated bass and drum tracks sounded tight, but the sloppy overdubs killed it :(

I also find it interesting how a lot of the time, engineers are very particular about the timing and quantization of drums, but let rhythmically horrid guitar playing onto final versions.
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  #44  
Old 06-09-2014, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

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Originally Posted by NerfLad View Post
Ha! I know that feeling all too well. I once replaced a drummer in a band where the recordings were being re-done (same tunes). When I listened to the old versions I thought "this guy swings like a brick; I'll be a huge improvement!" Of course, after the record was done the groove sounded exactly the same as the demos. The isolated bass and drum tracks sounded tight, but the sloppy overdubs killed it :(

I also find it interesting how a lot of the time, engineers are very particular about the timing and quantization of drums, but let rhythmically horrid guitar playing onto final versions.
Brutal. Such a bringdown.

I think engineers' ears get tired by the time they get to the dubs. We players have the luxury of getting out to freshen up, engineers have to slog through and pretend they are still clear because they are surrounded by these driven musos paying by the hour ...

Also, I suspect that if loose guitar was quantised there'd be all these truncated notes and blips and whatnot. Could work out okay in a progressive outfit ;)
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  #45  
Old 06-09-2014, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

I like that suggestion of amplifying the metronome and having the group perform with it while
you sit out and see how that goes. I was asked to teach djembe drumming to a group of adult women one evening and when I showed up most were playing all kinds of rhythms but
had lousy time. I tried some simple things like just hitting the drum on 2 and 4 while counting out loud. One couldn't do it to save her life. Maybe you have some of that going on in your group?
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  #46  
Old 06-09-2014, 07:06 PM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Each worship team is different, of course, but many smaller churches and places of worship don't have stringent standards for including folks in their teams. I once auditioned at a megachurch in Seattle, and I got to do a fifteen-minute solo audition with the MD and an hour-long practice with one of the several worship teams on rotation. I didn't get called back for that. When I moved to California, within six months I was drumming for the new church I moved to. My current church, I gave the worship leader a copy of one of my CDs and a link to my ReverbNation page. After a brief jam, I was accepted to first chair.

Many musicians get included because they "play guitar" or "sing" but there is no audition process, and they have little experience playing with others in a band setting. That's when we find all the warts. Most of these musicians are also self-taught and do not spring from formal music education situations.

The best worship teams usually include musicians who cut their teeth in bands before turning to worship, in my opinion. The homegrown musicians who have never done band time often have a steep learning curve and cause the former type of musician to grind their teeth in frustration -- even more so when they are leading.
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  #47  
Old 06-09-2014, 09:12 PM
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Nancy_C Nancy_C is offline
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Maybe they just don't "get" the metronome, and would rather follow a strident vocal count. Something like ...

"We've done four alREADY but now we're STEADY and then they WENT one TWO three FOUR!"

I sometimes try to drag someone in my band back in by making eye contact, then pointedly and vigorously nodding my head on the beat. As if that's going to help when a full drumset won't. I love the illusion of control.

Last edited by Nancy_C; 06-10-2014 at 01:39 AM.
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  #48  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:19 PM
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Our leader, who are in worship
Drummer be thy name
Thy time is strong, thy hats are loud
On stage, as it is in practice
Give us the beat, oh human click
And forgive not our wavering's
As we cannot play in time as a unit
Lead us now, into good timing
And deliver us to greatness
For the leading, and timing, and control is yours
Now and forever
OH MAN! HAHA xD You just made my day :)

But anyways thanks for all the advice guys! Really got me thinking about alot of different things in different ways and I'm definitely gonna take it to the next rehearsal!

- Jake
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  #49  
Old 06-09-2014, 11:36 PM
julius julius is offline
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

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Originally Posted by Jeff Almeyda View Post
Singer/songwriters seem to be especially prone to this, in my experience.
The stereotype of singer/songwriters is a lonesome soul eternally composing and playing in a bedroom by themselves. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
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  #50  
Old 06-10-2014, 01:04 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

I was in a band (keyword being "was") and the same scenario hAppened all the time .
One Thursday , I couldn't make it the practice (I call it bandcamp) so I told them the week before thSt they should practice with a drum machine. The bass player replied "trust me , we tried before and it doesn't work". I'll let you be the judge !!
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  #51  
Old 06-10-2014, 01:30 AM
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Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove1 View Post
I like that suggestion of amplifying the metronome and having the group perform with it while you sit out and see how that goes. I was asked to teach djembe drumming to a group of adult women one evening and when I showed up most were playing all kinds of rhythms but had lousy time. I tried some simple things like just hitting the drum on 2 and 4 while counting out loud. One couldn't do it to save her life. Maybe you have some of that going on in your group?
It's true, some people are rhythmically challenged (in old terminology: "really unco").

When people have that kind of issue then progress is a hard slog. I have an unusually bad sense of direction. For a while in the 80s I had a job where I drove around the place from job to job.

In the course of three years of driving to (and getting lost in) places, I improved. Just a little. I still sometimes had people asking me if I'm new to Sydney when I'd ask for directions (I've lived there all my life) but less often. Almost as soon as I left that job I immediately forgot all the places I learned to get to and now I'm as bad as ever.

Other people would be like that, but with rhythm. I doubt too many players with that level of uselessness would end up in any kind of band. Even The Shaggs developed rhythm later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by julius View Post
The stereotype of singer/songwriters is a lonesome soul eternally composing and playing in a bedroom by themselves. I wonder if that has anything to do with it.
A friend once played in the backing band for a singer songwriter night. He said never again. Timing and cliches were the problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drum4fun27302 View Post
I was in a band (keyword being "was") and the same scenario hAppened all the time .
One Thursday , I couldn't make it the practice (I call it bandcamp) so I told them the week before thSt they should practice with a drum machine. The bass player replied "trust me , we tried before and it doesn't work". I'll let you be the judge !!
Smart people! Drum machines are a poor replacement for a real drummer ... spread the word ;)
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  #52  
Old 06-10-2014, 01:55 AM
Otto Otto is offline
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Its easy to play in time when the other musicians follow you....its harder to play in time to an externally verified time sense.

I suggest recording your session...putting the click on a separate track.

Play with the click no matter what...play it back without the click...get the self-defending comments flying...then play it back with the click on...and watch people figure out that they need to do a bit better.
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  #53  
Old 06-10-2014, 02:12 AM
drum4fun27302 drum4fun27302 is offline
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Default Re: Why is it so hard for the band to follow me?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
It's true, some people are rhythmically challenged (in old terminology: "really unco").

When people have that kind of issue then progress is a hard slog. I have an unusually bad sense of direction. For a while in the 80s I had a job where I drove around the place from job to job.

In the course of three years of driving to (and getting lost in) places, I improved. Just a little. I still sometimes had people asking me if I'm new to Sydney when I'd ask for directions (I've lived there all my life) but less often. Almost as soon as I left that job I immediately forgot all the places I learned to get to and now I'm as bad as ever.

Other people would be like that, but with rhythm. I doubt too many players with that level of uselessness would end up in any kind of band. Even The Shaggs developed rhythm later on.



A friend once played in the backing band for a singer songwriter night. He said never again. Timing and cliches were the problems.



Smart people! Drum machines are a poor replacement for a real drummer ... spread the word ;)
The drum machine wasn't a replacement , it was an aid.
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