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  #41  
Old 08-16-2013, 10:14 AM
davezedlee davezedlee is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

I have three of these seamless steel snares, and yes, they ARE painted with some kind of coating, which you can only really see if you take the lugs off... some bits will have chipped off at the edges of the holes

I'm not about to disassemble them now just to take pictures, but the coating absolutely exists

Hope you'll all play nice now
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  #42  
Old 08-16-2013, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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Originally Posted by davezedlee View Post
I have three of these seamless steel snares, and yes, they ARE painted with some kind of coating, which you can only really see if you take the lugs off... some bits will have chipped off at the edges of the holes

I'm not about to disassemble them now just to take pictures, but the coating absolutely exists

Hope you'll all play nice now


Absolutely? Sounds to me like you're sure of your observation.


You 'can' see the coating in the pics, it has a bubbling/textured/not smooth effect on the crimp lines that run around the shell. Also the colour.

Now question why TAMA would put a coating on the inside of a steel snare shell. The answer is they're hiding a seam, but let's not be quick to believe me now, I don't claim to be a TAMA expert, tho I do know these drums inside and out... literally. I will agree this thread is aptly titled.

You can't see the seam, so it might be possible TAMA (or whoever made/translated their catalog descriptions) thought the drums were seamless (by looking at em')?????.... or did TAMA just think they could get away with calling it seamless b/c they finished it so well? The later would be heinous indeed.

That's another mystery, did TAMA 'knowingly' advertise the drum as 'seamless', or were they just dumb/made a translation mistake?

There's legions of drummers that own these snares who believe their drum is 'seamless' a la' a LUDALLOY, or any other deep drawn snare shell. The 'word of god' TAMA catalog says so, so they believe it. I was young and believed it too at one time, till I serviced said drum and found the seam. We didn't have anything back then (late 70's/early 80's) to go on but the catalog descriptions and if you think about it, still don't.


But first the seam has to be revealed, the seam only I 'seem' to claim exists on these 'seamless' drums, the real crime... not weather or not a coating exists, which anyone who has one one of these drums can verify yes just by taking the heads off.

Last edited by Les Ismore; 08-16-2013 at 10:09 PM.
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  #43  
Old 08-16-2013, 10:54 PM
davezedlee davezedlee is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

i've taken all (i actually have FOUR, not three {DOH!}) apart for cleaning, polishing and reassembly

the metal standoffs cut into the inside walls slightly, and there is a bit of flaking where that happened

having said that, there aren't any seams that i was able to find, but that doesn't mean they're not there; careful examination of the interior sidewalls and flange on both sides does not reveal any type of split/bump/join/SEAM any where

what was the argument about?

does it even matter?
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  #44  
Old 08-16-2013, 11:12 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

You're right...it dosen't matter.After PM ing some(thats not a real word) on a few forums ,the Tama forum included,the conclusion is that some say there is,and some say there isn't a coating.But all agreed that they can't SEE a seam,and neither can I.

On that Tama forum by the way,there are guys that know more about those drums than the people that built them.

Honestly,If i had to swear on my kids lives,I would swear that it's a seemless shell,just as Tama maintains.....in writing.

But that seems to be based on the age of the drum.All 70's drums I've seen do not have a coating nor a seam,and the exterior of the drums,were flawless.So there was a seam,then bravo to whomever cleaned it up.

So I'd be willing to say,some were coated,and some not.

The bottom line is the kingbeat which was for a time available with 3 different strainers,the Powerline,Mastercraft and EARLY swingstar/royalstar used the same shell.Having said that,as far as sound,all of the drums are in as thay saying goes."same church,different pew."

Steve B
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  #45  
Old 08-17-2013, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

having said that, there aren't any seams that i was able to find, but that doesn't mean they're not there; careful examination of the interior sidewalls and flange on both sides does not reveal any type of split/bump/join/SEAM any where

"Tama dosen't know how to build crappy drums."

Its true, TAMA did a great job finishing the seam, its well hidden, I don't expect the average drummer/dealer (also maybe TAMA didn't ) to be able to see the seam just by looking. My said drum example was sprayed lightly in the area of the seam under the fold over (reverse of the bearing edge) the spray had settled enough to show a faint line, an inconsistency in the coating, I rubbed the coating away to reveal the seam.



A coating would have to be fairly thick to hide a welded seam...wouldn't it

No and the IMPERIALSTARS are the proof, the coating just has to be the right consistency, and it 'seems' TAMA nailed it w/the colour, people don't even recognize it as a coating in pictures.



does it even matter?

You'd think people would want to know, the said drums were marketed (either intentionally, or erroneously) as 'seamless', literally thousands bought the drum under that pretense. ....to claim a drum has a seamless shell,when it"s welded,is just out and out fraud.- tamadrum[/i]



Conversly,a steel snare drums with ....coating inside?Really?
Such a drum would be historical for two reasons; it would be a monumantal failure because of the fact that it would be a first,and because it would sound..........terrible.
If there is any "coating" on the inside of that era Imperialstar steel shell,its unpolished chrome.


Maybe Steve B can voice his theory as to why in all his disbelief, TAMA spray coated the inside of a metal shell snare drum in the first place, what would posses them to do so? Normally inside paint/sprays are done to hide imperfections easily. I stand by my reasoning TAMA did just that, they sprayed to hide the seam on the inside. Way too hard to finish it perfectly inside the fold overs (reverse of the bearing edges), which was probably what happened w/my example, someone missed a spot and the coating made it stand out.
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  #46  
Old 08-17-2013, 05:20 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
having said that, there aren't any seams that i was able to find, but that doesn't mean they're not there; careful examination of the interior sidewalls and flange on both sides does not reveal any type of split/bump/join/SEAM any where

"Tama dosen't know how to build crappy drums."

Its true, TAMA did a great job finishing the seam, its well hidden, I don't expect the average drummer/dealer (also maybe TAMA didn't ) to be able to see the seam just by looking. My said drum example was sprayed lightly in the area of the seam under the fold over (reverse of the bearing edge) the spray had settled enough to show a faint line, an inconsistency in the coating, I rubbed the coating away to reveal the seam.



A coating would have to be fairly thick to hide a welded seam...wouldn't it

No and the IMPERIALSTARS are the proof, the coating just has to be the right consistency, and it 'seems' TAMA nailed it w/the colour, people don't even recognize it as a coating in pictures.



does it even matter?

You'd think people would want to know, the said drums were marketed (either intentionally, or erroneously) as 'seamless', literally thousands bought the drum under that pretense. ....to claim a drum has a seamless shell,when it"s welded,is just out and out fraud.- tamadrum[/i]



Conversly,a steel snare drums with ....coating inside?Really?
Such a drum would be historical for two reasons; it would be a monumantal failure because of the fact that it would be a first,and because it would sound..........terrible.
If there is any "coating" on the inside of that era Imperialstar steel shell,its unpolished chrome.


Maybe Steve B can voice his theory as to why in all his disbelief, TAMA spray coated the inside of a metal shell snare drum in the first place, what would posses them to do so? Normally inside paint/sprays are done to hide imperfections easily. I stand by my reasoning TAMA did just that, they sprayed to hide the seam on the inside. Way too hard to finish it perfectly inside the fold overs (reverse of the bearing edges), which was probably what happened w/my example, someone missed a spot and the coating made it stand out.
The last quote is completey cherry picked.I was reacting to the notion,percieved or not,that I thought you were stating the these snares were Zolacoated.

And yes,a coating would have to be a great deal thicker than an .average coating in thickness,to hide a seam.

THAT would have drasticly altered the sound of the drums,....yes Leslie?

I still maintain,that there may be some drums coated,and some not,after "speaking" to more than a few individuals who have some expertise(includeing one who is a published author on snare drums).

They almost to the "man" however,disagree about the seam.Maybe the coated drums were done that way ,to hide imperfections.Ludwig,Rogers,Gretsch,Camco.Leedy and Slingerland did this at times,to hide imperfections on the interior os their shells

Again,this isn't Tama fanboyisn(if that's even a word)..I and other as well ,are not convinced,and still see no evidence of a seam in the afore mentioned drums.

Think about what was at stake.Tama claiming a seamless shell,and if one or two drums,were actually found to be welded one piece shell...........what would have that done to a Japanese company,struggling for a market share ?Why take such a risk,and just say that they were one piece shells,and let the sound of the drums,speak for themselves?

It would have devistated Tama,not to mention, Japanese honor.

As I've said a few times before,lets just agree to disagree...and leave it at that.

Steve B
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  #47  
Old 08-17-2013, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

The last quote is completey cherry picked.I was reacting to the notion,percieved or not,that I thought you were stating the these snares were Zolacoated.

And yes,a coating would have to be a great deal thicker than an .average coating in thickness,to hide a seam.

THAT would have drasticly altered the sound of the drums,....yes Leslie?



ZOLA coat, ZOLA coat lite, call it whatever you want, the said drums 'are' coated Steve B. The coating is thin and hard, a different consistency than what TAMA sprayed on the IMPERIALSTAR toms/basses. So whatever they/you want to call the coating the reality is it does exist, the question now is "Why"?

Why would TAMA feel the need to spray coat the inside of a metal snare drum, a drum some/most believe is spun/deep drawn? It hasn't 'seamed' to alter the drums sound, people love it.

Notice too TAMA doesn't mention the coating on the snares in catalog descriptions, they do say ZOLA coating for toms/basses. The coating is there, it cost money to put on, it took another step in the assembly process, why not mention it?? Deception, or stupidity?



I still maintain,that there may be some drums coated,and some not,after "speaking" to more than a few individuals who have some expertise(includeing one who is a published author on snare drums).

You gonna use the word 'may', really? You're not not even sure yourself Steve B. It'd be helpful if someone could post pics of some 70's uncoated examples of TAMA'S 'seamless' metal snare drums. I can't find any. I've never seen an example w/o coating, but then I too can say "that doesn't meant they don't exist". I'd love to see one, even in pictures, it would help my already stated theory of why TAMA sprayed the coating, that mysterious unnamed, unmentioned coating on their (seamless) metal snare drums.



They almost to the "man" however,disagree about the seam

Again uncertainty here. So "almost" to the man meaning... were there 'some' who believe a seam exists??? We need your help in solving this case Steve B.



'Maybe' the coated drums were done that way ,to hide imperfections.

Hmmmm, what 'imperfections', these drums are flawless in fit n' finish. Keep in mind even davezedlee said of the coating "which you can only really see if you take the lugs off", a clear testament to TAMA'S good work. Oh, yeah 'maybe' there's a seam under that coating, could that be why they sprayed? A seam would be an imperfection they'd want to hide for sure.




Think about what was at stake.Tama claiming a seamless shell,and if one or two drums,were actually found to be welded one piece shell...........what would have that done to a Japanese company,struggling for a market share ?Why take such a risk,and just say that they were one piece shells,and let the sound of the drums,speak for themselves?

It would have devistated Tama,not to mention, Japanese honor.



Little ol' drummer girl, DRUMMERWORLD forum poster destroys TAMA'S honor? すみません TAMA. They could claim catalog description interpreter screwed up. Don't know exactly how they do it, tho if interpreter had said examples to examine for catalog descriptions, easy to see they'd (also) view the drums as seamless. I don't think that's the case tho.

Have to wait till I get my hands on said drum tho, until then this case remains open. I'll let you guys know If I get a visit.
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  #48  
Old 08-17-2013, 08:41 PM
davezedlee davezedlee is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

just because they're coated, doesn't mean they have seams (or had less than perfect insides, whatever THAT means)

maybe you should bear the burden of proof and produce EVIDENCE of a "seamed" seamless steel shell

just because you "say you had one 30 years ago" is weak... did ANYONE else? you could'a been a zillionaire!

if not, why not give it a rest?

none of my current 4 (black "T" Imperialstar, black "T" Royalstar, two red "T" Swingstars) have seams, BTW
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  #49  
Old 08-17-2013, 09:17 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
The last quote is completey cherry picked.I was reacting to the notion,percieved or not,that I thought you were stating the these snares were Zolacoated.

And yes,a coating would have to be a great deal thicker than an .average coating in thickness,to hide a seam.

THAT would have drasticly altered the sound of the drums,....yes Leslie?



ZOLA coat, ZOLA coat lite, call it whatever you want, the said drums 'are' coated Steve B. The coating is thin and hard, a different consistency than what TAMA sprayed on the IMPERIALSTAR toms/basses. So whatever they/you want to call the coating the reality is it does exist, the question now is "Why"?

Why would TAMA feel the need to spray coat the inside of a metal snare drum, a drum some/most believe is spun/deep drawn? It hasn't 'seamed' to alter the drums sound, people love it.

Notice too TAMA doesn't mention the coating on the snares in catalog descriptions, they do say ZOLA coating for toms/basses. The coating is there, it cost money to put on, it took another step in the assembly process, why not mention it?? Deception, or stupidity?



I still maintain,that there may be some drums coated,and some not,after "speaking" to more than a few individuals who have some expertise(includeing one who is a published author on snare drums).

You gonna use the word 'may', really? You're not not even sure yourself Steve B. It'd be helpful if someone could post pics of some 70's uncoated examples of TAMA'S 'seamless' metal snare drums. I can't find any. I've never seen an example w/o coating, but then I too can say "that doesn't meant they don't exist". I'd love to see one, even in pictures, it would help my already stated theory of why TAMA sprayed the coating, that mysterious unnamed, unmentioned coating on their (seamless) metal snare drums.



They almost to the "man" however,disagree about the seam

Again uncertainty here. So "almost" to the man meaning... were there 'some' who believe a seam exists??? We need your help in solving this case Steve B.



'Maybe' the coated drums were done that way ,to hide imperfections.

Hmmmm, what 'imperfections', these drums are flawless in fit n' finish. Keep in mind even davezedlee said of the coating "which you can only really see if you take the lugs off", a clear testament to TAMA'S good work. Oh, yeah 'maybe' there's a seam under that coating, could that be why they sprayed? A seam would be an imperfection they'd want to hide for sure.




Think about what was at stake.Tama claiming a seamless shell,and if one or two drums,were actually found to be welded one piece shell...........what would have that done to a Japanese company,struggling for a market share ?Why take such a risk,and just say that they were one piece shells,and let the sound of the drums,speak for themselves?

It would have devistated Tama,not to mention, Japanese honor.



Little ol' drummer girl, DRUMMERWORLD forum poster destroys TAMA'S honor? すみません TAMA. They could claim catalog description interpreter screwed up. Don't know exactly how they do it, tho if interpreter had said examples to examine for catalog descriptions, easy to see they'd (also) view the drums as seamless. I don't think that's the case tho.

Have to wait till I get my hands on said drum tho, until then this case remains open. I'll let you guys know If I get a visit.
I used the word "may",because I didn't see the particular drum in question.That drum is NOT in my possession,and therefore,the word "may" was used.Now you're going to focus on grammar?The one I have ,does not have a coating.....period.

Zolacoating is thick textured paint,with different shades of grey,which was used on Imperialstars and Swingstars.It's very similar in appearence to Ludwigs 70's granitone.

It's litterally the same stuff as trunk paint.

You're truly obsessing here Les,and your starting to lean toward questioning my honesty and credibility again.Your posts are also becoming increasingly scarcastic an agressive again.

You say you want a discussion,but maybe ,you need to find out what a mature,unbiased,and UNEMOTIONAL discussion sounds like.You're again taking this all too personal again.

I'm on record on this forum as stating,if I'm wrong,I will publicly admit it,and done so in the past.......without the questioning of my fellow forum members honesty or integrity,and without the drama and sarcasm.

You again try to bend and twist words to your will,and in a purely sarcastic way.

I refuse to play tis BS game any longer.I have had relationships in the past where the friendship started somewhat rocky.

I can clearly see,this isn't the case here......Good Bye Les.

Steve B
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  #50  
Old 08-17-2013, 09:22 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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Originally Posted by davezedlee View Post
just because they're coated, doesn't mean they have seams (or had less than perfect insides, whatever THAT means)

maybe you should bear the burden of proof and produce EVIDENCE of a "seamed" seamless steel shell

just because you "say you had one 30 years ago" is weak... did ANYONE else? you could'a been a zillionaire!

if not, why not give it a rest?

none of my current 4 (black "T" Imperialstar, black "T" Royalstar, two red "T" Swingstars) have seams, BTW
I just want to say ,thanks for the input Dave,but I'm done with this "discussion",and not because of your participation either.

Somehow ....root canal is a more pleasent experience,then this.:):)

Cheers

Steve B
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  #51  
Old 08-17-2013, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

The question still remains as to why they're coated at all. Why spend the extra money to coat a seamless metal snare drum? If its a positive that'd be a selling point and they would've surly used that point to sell, it'd a' been all over their catalog descriptions. They weren't afraid to say in the catalogs their IMPERIALSTAR toms/basses were/are ZOLA coated.

The logical answer is coatings are sprayed to hide something... with wood drums there could be a lot to hide, metal? Eh. Example: Say TAMA gets a ton of commercial grade mahogany that has a raised grain, spraying a ZOLA coating is much easier/cheaper than sanding/working out the imperfections, or at least lets try it one time either out of curiosity, or need.

We're talking about a metal snare drum here, and purportedly 'seamless', which would indicate spun/deep drawn, its certainly not cast. For those who know anything about metal refinishing, its clear spun/deep drawn metal snares have no 'imperfections' that would require a spray coating. For those of you who aren't familiar with the process, refer to post #30 of this thread.

Here's a video example of the deep drawn process, you can see there's little room for producing imperfections that would require a spray coating on the inside, there'd be no point in impeding shell resonance with a spray either, the main reason for the deep drawn process in the first place. There are no pores/grain to seal with a deep drawn metal snare drum, any shell that might've had an imperfection would've simply been picked off the line, it wouldn't have passed inspection. If they ran production with imperfections to save money they would spray. Any imperfections with a deep drawn process metal shell, that shell would simply be rejected.

Ask yourself too- What happened, did TAMA just trash their deep drawn process, ended it, got rid of the machinery b/c the snares didn't sound good? Where's all the 'seamless steel' snares today, and what happened to that mysterious grey coating they used to spray on their 'seamless' metal snare drum interiors???


......................................
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  #52  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:24 PM
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I used the word "may",because I didn't see the particular drum in question.That drum is NOT in my possession,and therefore,the word "may" was used.Now you're going to focus on grammar?The one I have ,does not have a coating.....period.

OK Steve B, lets be perfectly clear here... there definitely 'are' coated ones, we've got a first hand testimony. There's no proof yet of any uncoated examples. Can you please post a pic of yours? The one I have ,does not have a coating.....period.



I'm on record on this forum as stating,if I'm wrong,I will publicly admit it,and done so in the past.......without the questioning of my fellow forum members honesty or integrity,and without the drama and sarcasm

Again Steve B "Its not about you". The drum/TAMA.

Coating on a 'seamless' steel shell snare drum interior, no catalog description of such, no rhyme or reason given by TAMA for it, process doesn't exist today, neither does the coating, whistle blower, or a conspiracy theorist claiming said drum has a seam they're being challenged. Its high stakes, high drama for sure.

Nobodies concerned if you're right, or wrong in the end, its all about TAMA. We can be right and wrong along the way, its OK.
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  #53  
Old 08-18-2013, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

Sonor was talking about this stuff a LONG time ago when they were producing their own Seamless shells. I don't know what company they were referring to, but they mentioned the info in an interview with a guy from Sonor back then, Rolf Lukowitz :

"For instance, we make a seamless metal-shell snare drum; we are proud of this product and pleased to show people how it is made. Other firms claim to make a seamless metal shell, but they won't show you the shell being made. The fact is that they usually buy them in from outside and often there is a join, but you can't see it because it is very cleverly disguised." "You can see it," said Rolf. "If you really know what you're looking for, you can usually see a join if it is there."
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Old 08-18-2013, 01:40 AM
davezedlee davezedlee is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

a conspiracy theory?

that's your proof?
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  #55  
Old 08-18-2013, 03:31 AM
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EY ! .. More info from the Italian badasss himself (although no Tama examples) .. Click link below :

http://www.ak-drums.com/Gallery/mystical-seams.html

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  #56  
Old 08-18-2013, 07:57 AM
davezedlee davezedlee is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

Isn't this a Tama thread?

The "conspiracy" comment was really for Les
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  #57  
Old 08-18-2013, 05:00 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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Isn't this a Tama thread?
That was my intent at the beginning, to learn about the product lines being offered in order of build quality vs nomenclature.
So moving right along, I listened to some of the Bubinga shells and they have a dark rich sound that reminded me of the old Sonor stuff that Chester Thompson used on the road with Genesis...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trFZ_cGAG6Q

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Old 08-18-2013, 05:51 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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a conspiracy theory?

that's your proof?
So far,I see none.Coating or no coating.This isn't actually a reply to you Dave.The following is just an obsevation,after decades of collecting,repairing and selling vintage drums.Some how,it turned into ...a rant.So,the following is NOT directed at you Dave,I mearly used your quote,,,,mea cupa.

In the Ludwig examples,I'll have to check the catalogs,but collectors and most of the drummers that own those 20's and 30's drums like the De Luxe,Inspiration and Triumphal are familiar with the two piece shell,that's braized in the center bead,where the shell overlaps.

No where in the ad copy of the Ludwig 1928 catalog,does it say that the shell is one piece,or spun brass

The same is true for some Slingerland and Leedy models.

In some cases,it may be true that ALL,of the big American drum companys,have been misleading,as well as every other company you care to mention.

The Leedy gold finish brass Black Elite model snare drums AKA "nobby gold",aren't gold at all,but either brass or a deep yellow lacquer finish.Collectors have known this for years,and only "clean their drums with a very light mineral oil.

So the AK and Sonor claim has been known for some time,and is akin to someone yelling,that the earth is actually a sphere,and not flat.Ohh but that will start yet another debate ,with the flat earth society,maybe even the hollow earth nut jobs.

Show me a pic of any of the Tama snares in this "discussion",that has a welded seam and I'll gladly file them under the title of one piece shell.

Till then,I'll file the some are coated,some are not THEORY,to possibly....I SAID POSSIBLY ,to a cost effective way to cover a surface that isn't attractive to look at.Let's not play semantics,and word GAMES anymore...shall we?

The same way almost ALL drum campanys found ways to cover..less disireable aspects of their build quality. at one time or another,like Ludwig,Slingerland,Rogers,Gretsch,Camco,Hyman,Yama ha,Tama,Pearl,Leedy,Rimmel,and more than a few others.

Drum companys to this day,still refer to a stained finish as Lacquer.Yet ,only Gretsch USA customs and maybe a few custom builders actually use nitro cellulose lacquer,or any varient of a true lacquer .That's because of cost and Environmental reasons.Cover up?

So your "lacquer" drums...aren"t really lacquer,and haven"t been for quite some time.It's just an accepted term used in the business,and sounds better than polyurathane,or what ever clear coating thats being used.Deal with it...write letters,but don't insult and demean,and disparage someones integrity and honesty ,because of a difference of opinion.That's 15 year old youtube comment behavior,I'd expect to see on a Travis Barker Vs.Joey Jordinson vid.

Write a letter to TAMA about your outrage about a percieved "cover up" scam,because ,I could care less at this point,if the damn drum is made of twenty different pieces,with all the seams cleverly consealed by drum making elves,working inside friggin tree.

That's the ticket,I'll start a rumor that those drums are actually made from unobtainium...prove me wrong. I say Tama lied about the steel shell all along..........pitchforks and torches all around...let's get em'.Who's with me?

Why not just expose all these companys for everything?Let's just out everyone of them,and show our outrage ....... by never playing their drums again..

Then GURU and maybe a handful of others,will be the only ones left standing.Because..... everyone has played that game at one time or another.

Stop all this pseudo rightous indignation and just play the damn drums.Rant over.

Steve B

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Old 08-18-2013, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

Personally, I've found the vigorous application of the 'Ignore' list particularly helpful on this thread. Not directed at you, Steve.
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Old 08-18-2013, 07:27 PM
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Old 08-18-2013, 09:34 PM
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Personally, I've found the vigorous application of the 'Ignore' list particularly helpful on this thread. Not directed at you, Steve.
I know my friend.:)

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Old 08-19-2013, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

Sonor was talking about this stuff a LONG time ago when they were producing their own Seamless shells. I don't know what company they were referring to, but they mentioned the info in an interview with a guy from Sonor back then, Rolf Lukowitz :

"For instance, we make a seamless metal-shell snare drum; we are proud of this product and pleased to show people how it is made. Other firms claim to make a seamless metal shell, but they won't show you the shell being made. The fact is that they usually buy them in from outside and often there is a join, but you can't see it because it is very cleverly disguised." "You can see it," said Rolf. "If you really know what you're looking for, you can usually see a join if it is there."

EY ! .. More info from the Italian badasss himself (although no Tama examples) .. Click link below :

http://www.ak-drums.com/Gallery/mystical-seams.html






Great find Artstar. At least the non believers now have some reference to the fact that some drums marketed/labeled as 'seamless' actually have a seam, as in the case of said TAMA examples. To expose the hidden TAMA seams on said drums, one would have to destroy the coating, no ones going to do that to their drum, a little assurance TAMA wouldn't be outed. I'll do it when I come across one.

We're learning here, we've learned TAMA coated the inside of a metal snare drum (but not yet proven they did it to hide a seam, but why else?), we've learned some metal snare drums are labeled 'seamless', tho in reality they do have a seam.

Pic below is more close to what I saw on my IMPERIALSTAR example, a definite line not finished very smooth. There's no way in hell you're going to see the seam on the TAMAS, the coating if sprayed properly covers it, my example was flawed, the coating went on too thin over the seam exposing the line.

TAMA to my knowledge 'never' produced a deep drawn seamless metal snare drum shell, and certainly not a 'steel' one. The IMPERIALSTAR/KINGBEAT line is praised up and down, if truly being a 'seamless' shell, then why its demise? TAMA'S making their steel snare drum shells they same way they always made them, with a weld/seam. There's NO seamless steel shelled snares in TAMA'S line up today, Ever wonder why?



Till then,I'll file the some are coated,some are not THEORY,to possibly....I SAID POSSIBLY ,to a cost effective way to cover a surface that isn't attractive to look at.

Surface that isn't attractive to look at? Please, its a seamless, spun steel shell right, that wouldn't be attractive? Spray is more attractive? I think we can all agree spray cost money and and a spray that hard would dampen the shell. The spray TAMA used wasn't paint like in consistency, it was much harder/thicker.

Conversly,a steel snare drums with ....coating inside?Really?
Such a drum would be historical for two reasons; it would be a monumantal failure because of the fact that it would be a first,and because it would sound..........terrible.
If there is any "coating" on the inside of that era Imperialstar steel shell,its unpolished chrome.


Why would TAMA (anyone) spray a seamless snare shell? In TAMA's case (the only on I know that's ever sprayed the inside of a metal snare drum) they're hiding a seam.




Why not just expose all these companys for everything?Let's just out everyone of them

Why not indeed! Its interesting to say the least, and we learn what companies are really FOS. Deception in advertising, who cares?



I could care less at this point,

...to claim a drum has a seamless shell,when it"s welded,is just out and out fraud.- tamadrum



Again thousands bought the TAMA examples under the pretense that they were 'seamless' as advertised, and thousands hold fast to the belief that they are 'seamless' just b/c it says so in the catalog... wha wha wha.
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Old 08-19-2013, 08:06 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Sonor was talking about this stuff a LONG time ago when they were producing their own Seamless shells. I don't know what company they were referring to, but they mentioned the info in an interview with a guy from Sonor back then, Rolf Lukowitz :

"For instance, we make a seamless metal-shell snare drum; we are proud of this product and pleased to show people how it is made. Other firms claim to make a seamless metal shell, but they won't show you the shell being made. The fact is that they usually buy them in from outside and often there is a join, but you can't see it because it is very cleverly disguised." "You can see it," said Rolf. "If you really know what you're looking for, you can usually see a join if it is there."

EY ! .. More info from the Italian badasss himself (although no Tama examples) .. Click link below :

http://www.ak-drums.com/Gallery/mystical-seams.html






Great find Artstar. At least the non believers now have some reference to the fact that some drums marketed/labeled as 'seamless' actually have a seam, as in the case of said TAMA examples. To expose the hidden TAMA seams on said drums, one would have to destroy the coating, no ones going to do that to their drum, a little assurance TAMA wouldn't be outed. I'll do it when I come across one.

We're learning here, we've learned TAMA coated the inside of a metal snare drum (but not yet proven they did it to hide a seam, but why else?), we've learned some metal snare drums are labeled 'seamless', tho in reality they do have a seam.

Pic below is more close to what I saw on my IMPERIALSTAR example, a definite line not finished very smooth. There's no way in hell you're going to see the seam on the TAMAS, the coating if sprayed properly covers it, my example was flawed, the coating went on too thin over the seam exposing the line.

TAMA to my knowledge 'never' produced a deep drawn seamless metal snare drum shell, and certainly not a 'steel' one. The IMPERIALSTAR/KINGBEAT line is praised up and down, if truly being a 'seamless' shell, then why its demise? TAMA'S making their steel snare drum shells they same way they always made them, with a weld/seam. There's NO seamless steel shelled snares in TAMA'S line up today, Ever wonder why?



Till then,I'll file the some are coated,some are not THEORY,to possibly....I SAID POSSIBLY ,to a cost effective way to cover a surface that isn't attractive to look at.

Surface that isn't attractive to look at? Please, its a seamless, spun steel shell right, that wouldn't be attractive? Spray is more attractive? I think we can all agree spray cost money and and a spray that hard would dampen the shell. The spray TAMA used wasn't paint like in consistency, it was much harder/thicker.

Conversly,a steel snare drums with ....coating inside?Really?
Such a drum would be historical for two reasons; it would be a monumantal failure because of the fact that it would be a first,and because it would sound..........terrible.
If there is any "coating" on the inside of that era Imperialstar steel shell,its unpolished chrome.


Why would TAMA (anyone) spray a seamless snare shell? In TAMA's case (the only on I know that's ever sprayed the inside of a metal snare drum) they're hiding a seam.




Why not just expose all these companys for everything?Let's just out everyone of them

Why not indeed! Its interesting to say the least, and we learn what companies are really FOS. Deception in advertising, who cares?



I could care less at this point,

...to claim a drum has a seamless shell,when it"s welded,is just out and out fraud.- tamadrum



Again thousands bought the TAMA examples under the pretense that they were 'seamless' as advertised, and thousands hold fast to the belief that they are 'seamless' just b/c it says so in the catalog... wha wha wha.

Lets get it straight that I never will agree that ALL,of the snares in question are coated,and you've yet to prove it.So stop patting yourself on the back over your constant strawman argument,which proves nothing

Pics of few drums,dosen't indict thousands.Maybe interview some tree dwelling elves.

Since you've seen fit to cherry pic again,and taking my words out of context is comlpletey dishonest.Anyone can seem to say anything you want if you constantly ,take what they ACTUALLY say,and with a little cut and paste....have quite dishonestly changed the entire meaning and context of what was actually said.

I've already said ,ad nausium,I thought you were refering to those drums in question,as being Zolacoated inside..............which they clearly aren't.You also made no effort to clarify your statement either.Another ruse on your part,and another out of context ,cherry picked quote.

Your just feeding the strawman

Hence,my comment of a monumental failure of a metal shelled drum...METAL SHELLED drum that would sound terrible,if it were coating inside with very thick,textured ....and speckled trunk paint.

Please show us, a single example of a metal shelled snare drum,that was a sucessful design,with thick,textured trunk paint on the interior.That's what I was refering too.......and you know it.

This isn't about right or wrong Les,this is clearly about you being challenged,and when done so , wanting to have a knife fight,in a phone booth.You're pulling out all the stops..............over a percieved seam ....in a sucessful drum design.............in a drum made over 37 years ago.Why not put your effort in to proving a point,instead of continually attacking me on a personal level.

.Just stop all the character assasination,the attempt to tear down my honesty and integrity,and the continued cherry picking,and taking quotes out of context,and again,the semantics over verbiage.

Here's an Idea...why not just end this,since neither one of us is going to convince the other of anything.I say the skys blue....can we agree on that?

Why not table this knife fight in a phone booth( aka Discussion)....till one of us has some real proof,that the sky isn't blue at all............If you win,beers on me,if I win,beers on me.


In all seriouseness,it's what adults do.I'll even cancel my order for my Leslie Ismore dart board,and silhouette phone booth targets.........what do ya say?

Steve B
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Old 08-19-2013, 10:18 PM
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In all seriouseness,it's what adults do.I'll even cancel my order for my Leslie Ismore dart board,and silhouette phone booth targets.........what do ya say?
This is - in all honesty - the funniest thing I've read in days.
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:52 AM
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Lets get it straight that I never will agree that ALL,of the snares in question are coated,and you've yet to prove it.So stop patting yourself on the back over your constant strawman argument,which proves nothing


Steve B you're the one who believed 'NONE' of the said TAMA snares were coated (ZOLA coat, or otherwise), even with your (claimed) background in metal work("journeyman machineist"), you're position on the coating was that its "unpolished chrome".


Hence,my comment of a monumental failure of a metal shelled drum...METAL SHELLED drum that would sound terrible,if it were coating inside with very thick,textured ....and speckled trunk paint.

Still to Steve B's disbelief TAMA 'did' coat their (alleged) 'seamless' steel snare drums... an already 'thick' steel according to him also. So a seamless, thick steel snare shell gets a coating (?). The coating TAMA used on the snares is harder than the ZOLA coat BTW, it had to adhere to steel. And its that coating that adds weight to the sell, its on thin, tho it adds weight. davezedlee reports the coating 'chipping' ("some bits will have chipped off at the edges of the holes"). "Chipping" not flaking, yes it is a hard coating, and that was my observation also when I removed some on my example to reveal the seam. Its something I didn't forget.



So I'd be willing to say,some were coated,and some not

I say they're all coated, show me a pic of uncoated examples, now you prove me wrong.



"Besides my King beat,I also had an Imperialstar 6.4x14 for a few years,and the interior had no coating at all,and it was a seemless shell."-Steve B

All hot air unless you can prove it, again I say they're all coated, even POWERLINE, all coated with that mysterious, hard, grey coating hiding a welded seam... that I'll never forget. Read post # 61 again, (my) paragraph 4. TAMA has never produced a true, deep drawn steel snare drum shell. If they did, you'd still see it offered today. TAMA is making their steel shells the way they always made them, with a welded seam.




just because they're coated, doesn't mean they have seams (or had less than perfect insides, whatever THAT means)

maybe you should bear the burden of proof and produce EVIDENCE of a "seamed" seamless steel shell just because you "say you had one 30 years ago" is weak... did ANYONE else? you could'a been a zillionaire!

Please read post # 21 (my) paragraph 5 and this thread from 2006 where I first outed the atrocity to everyones disbelief. It says 'seamless' in the catalog so it has to be true right????




Think about what was at stake.Tama claiming a seamless shell,and if one or two drums,were actually found to be welded one piece shell...........what would have that done to a Japanese company,struggling for a market share ?Why take such a risk,and just say that they were one piece shells,and let the sound of the drums,speak for themselves?

It would have devistated Tama,not to mention, Japanese honor
.-Steve B



Yeah, think about it.
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:52 AM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

A disaster has befallen mankind.
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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[i][b]

Please read post # 21 (my) paragraph 5 and this thread from 2006 where I first outed the atrocity to everyones disbelief. It says 'seamless' in the catalog so it has to be true right????
so 7 years later, and you STILL have no proof?

there a seam in your tinfoil hat?
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

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A disaster has befallen mankind.
War in the Middle East, holes in the Ozone layer, Human trafficking, nuclear proliferation, seams in snare drums.
Let's keep some perspective on things guys.
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Old 08-20-2013, 03:30 PM
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so 7 years later, and you STILL have no proof?

there a seam in your tinfoil hat?
Shocking...isn't it?

Careful Dave,you'll be in the crosshairs soon,for mearly voicing an OPINION to the contrary.The very notion of a counter point is unimaginable,and therefor,character assination must follow,instead of a well constructed,intellegent,consise, and FACTUAL argument

The first rule in forensic debate is that the challenger,bears the burden of proof.Instead,we have to accept that there's a boogy man around every tree(which may or may not,contain drum making elves)The Tama Drum Company,states one thing,and the challenger states something to the contrary.

Therefor,the challenger bears the burden of proof,to provide clear,convincing and factual evidence ,to support that claim.

There's absolutely ZERO evidence of that claim,after 7 years after first making it.In most states in the US,that exceeded the statute of limitations by 2 years,and therefor,the original claim,is null and void.

If you've ever been on a debate team,you know this to be true.

Someone seems to have abandon those rules,as well as the rules of common civility,in this and other threads concerning this subject.

Although this is in response to your post Dave,none of the content is directed at you.Happily,you recognise the complete absurity of this "discussion",concerning the challenger.

Cheers,

Steve B

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Old 08-20-2013, 03:40 PM
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War in the Middle East, holes in the Ozone layer, Human trafficking, nuclear proliferation, seams in snare drums.
Let's keep some perspective on things guys.
I,for one,would like nothing better ,than to adhere to the rules of forensic debate,as well as common civility.

Surely,we can have a discussion,without character assination,can't we?

The rules dictate that the challenger, bears the burden of proof.In this case,The Tama Drum Company,states one thing,and someone else(the challenger) states something else.

That someone else(the challenger) ,therefor bears the burden of proof.Lacking that factual proof,that someone must withdraw their claim,having not provided clear and convincing evidence,to the contrary.

My perspective, is squarely intact.

Steve B
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

I'd call Srebrenica an atrocity, Les. I'd call the Battle of Stalingrad an atrocity. I'd call Columbine an atrocity. I wouldn't call Tama perhaps having a welded snare when they claim it to be seamless an atrocity.

Please. Think about the language you're using.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:05 PM
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so 7 years later, and you STILL have no proof?

there a seam in your tinfoil hat?
No, in 7 years said drum hasn't crossed my path and Im certainly not going out of my way, put out $ to get one, I already went through that in 83'. I'll come across one eventually.





I,for one,would like nothing better ,than to adhere to the rules of forensic debate,as well as common civility.

Surely,we can have a discussion,without character assination,can't we?

The rules dictate that the challenger, bears the burden of proof.In this case,The Tama Drum Company,states one thing,and someone else(the challenger) states something else.

That someone else(the challenger) ,therefor bears the burden of proof.Lacking that factual proof,that someone must withdraw their claim,having not provided clear and convincing evidence,to the contrary.

My perspective, is squarely intact.

Steve B






Got any pics of your 'seamless' IMPERIALSTAR/KINGBEAT snare drum you claim has no coating Steve B?

Unpolished chrome on the inside is it? Would love to see it.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: Tama experts-need some help!

Burden of proof is on you, Les.
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:23 PM
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No, in 7 years said drum hasn't crossed my path and Im certainly not going out of my way, put out $ to get one, I already went through that in 83'. I'll come across one eventually.





I,for one,would like nothing better ,than to adhere to the rules of forensic debate,as well as common civility.

Surely,we can have a discussion,without character assination,can't we?

The rules dictate that the challenger, bears the burden of proof.In this case,The Tama Drum Company,states one thing,and someone else(the challenger) states something else.

That someone else(the challenger) ,therefor bears the burden of proof.Lacking that factual proof,that someone must withdraw their claim,having not provided clear and convincing evidence,to the contrary.

My perspective, is squarely intact.

Steve B






Got any pics of your 'seamless' IMPERIALSTAR/KINGBEAT snare drum you claim has no coating Steve B?

Unpolished chrome on the inside is it? Would love to see it.
Again you chosen to ignore the rules of debate,and just continue you're strawman argument.After 7 years of spinning this tale,you've yet to show a single shread of demonsterable evidence,which could prove your claim either.

Some how,you think a total lack of demonsterable evidence and "because you say so" is somehow ...enough to prove your case.

You have chosen instead ,to just continually repeat the same inaccurate,factless and baseless arguments over and over,hoping to somehow wear out those who would not bend to your will.

Your tactic of saying ..show me yours,dosen't apply here,because,you've never shown your's ,which iniated the "discussion", in the first place.

What's next..flying monkeys?Spaghetti monsters?Or maybe the sky is falling...no?Prehaps a new tinfoil hat...with a seam of course...with "Tama" in red blinking lights.

Thanks but no thanks........check and mate.

Steve B
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:24 PM
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Why would Tama openly talk about zolacoating Imperstar toms and bass drums,and exclude that info about snare drums? Sounds very cloak and dagger to me... Steve B

I agree, why no mention of the coating that exists on the snares? Could it be TAMA didn't want to tell the truth, they're hiding a seam with it(?).




Such a drum would be historical for two reasons; it would be a monumantal failure because of the fact that it would be a first...


Yup, 'first' seamless steel snare drum with a coating on the inside, actually 'first' steel snare drum seamless, or otherwise with a coating on the inside.

Why would TAMA feel the need to coat the inside of a steel shell snare drum??? It does 'seam' a little "cloak and dagger" doesn't it?





Lets get it straight that I never will agree that ALL,of the snares in question are coated,and you've yet to prove it.So stop patting yourself on the back over your constant strawman argument,which proves nothing

Pics of few drums,dosen't indict thousands.Maybe interview some tree dwelling elves.




Its already proven, they're 'all' coated. I say all available pic's do indicate thousands, 70's examples on eBay, look at the pics, its not 'unpolished chrome'. Not one example of an uncoated 70/80's versions exist. Steve B is the only one suggesting an 'uncoated' example (claims he had one) exists. I say no, they don't exist, a picture is all we need.

I don't need to prove an uncoated example of said drum(s), I'm claiming they don't exist.

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Old 08-22-2013, 09:53 PM
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Why would Tama openly talk about zolacoating Imperstar toms and bass drums,and exclude that info about snare drums? Sounds very cloak and dagger to me... Steve B

I agree, why no mention of the coating that exists on the snares? Could it be TAMA didn't want to tell the truth, they're hiding a seam with it(?).




Such a drum would be historical for two reasons; it would be a monumantal failure because of the fact that it would be a first...


Yup, 'first' seamless steel snare drum with a coating on the inside, actually 'first' steel snare drum seamless, or otherwise with a coating on the inside.

Why would TAMA feel the need to coat the inside of a steel shell snare drum??? It does 'seam' a little "cloak and dagger" doesn't it?
Les. There's this thing in the World we call debating. It generally goes like this:

i) Argument. This could be anything. A philosophical position, a factual disagreement. Whatever the first person sets out is called the thesis. Evidence is expected to back up the initial position.

ii) Counter-argument. This is usually a reasoned statement contrary to the first, providing evidence counter to the first participant. In stricter circles, this is called the antithesis.

There's also a position called the consensus, which is a widely-accepted position. It usually has majority backing, or majority backing within a group. For instance, it is a scientific and medical consensus that smoking has a causal effect upon the contraction of lung cancer.

To counter the consensus (which almost always has a factual basis, especially in factual discussions, like this one) - the person providing the antithesis has the burden of proof. That is to say, they have to provide evidence that the consensus is incorrect in some manner or at least, needs modifying. Usually, the consensus initially exists because there is evidence already for it. Lastly, you can't provide evidence for a negative. You can't request that somebody provide evidence that something doesn't exist because presumably, there would be no evidence for it. In this thread, the consensus is that they are seamless.

So far, I think you've ignored all of these structures, etiquettes and procedures in this thread - apart from providing an antithesis, which is not only flawed but also lacks evidence. Steve doesn't have to demonstrate anything, as the individual making the statements that seams exist, you have to now provide the contrary evidence. Simply repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it any more correct.

Rambling on about it in an aggressive, overblown and irritating manner means that I can't take your views on this thread seriously and is seriously pissing everyone else off.
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