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Old 11-07-2018, 11:14 AM
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Genazvale Genazvale is offline
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Default Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Hey, guys,

Recently came across Wrist Twisters by Buster Bailey and ordered it as it looks like something "new" and different from "standard" books, like SC, Master Studies, Stick Technique etc (rudiments based (?) books).

And turned out that it IS really different and it focused on building feeling the stick and it's flying. Which is really great!

But what I'm confused with is which approach should I stick with? Different books, different approaches - does it mean that I'll get different results at the end of the day? Or I can choose any of them and it will cover everything I need?

Currently, I'm working on SC 1 hour and later Accents and Rebounds 1 hour at night. The second one is very challenging and I got noticeable results from both.

Also would be interested in hearing your experience with Wrist Twisters, if you worked on it more than 6 months.

THANKS!
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:23 AM
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Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Building technique is a life long thing. Most will change their approach as time goes by. Different teachers have their own approach and trying to learn that from a book... doesn't work.

2 hours of technical studies pr. day. Unless you work on something musical for and additional 8 hours, this seems quite unbalanced.

Musical practice will tell you what you need.
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Old 11-07-2018, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Wrist Twisters is great! Everybody doing a lot of snare drum practice should have it. It is very dense, and many of the exercises require a lot of focus-- you can't just sit down and burn out a lot of stuff.

I use all of those books on different days-- there's no need to just do one. You're never going to "finish" any of them.

As Odd-Arne said, hopefully the technical stuff is not all the practicing you're doing!
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Old 11-07-2018, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

No, of course not. Additionally, I do 1-2 hours of grooves/fills/music playing. And I do SC with music instead of a metronome.

Well, the main question is - can I focus on one book only and achieve everything needed to be a good (relatively) drummer? I believe that it's better to dive into one particular book and learn it thoroughly than do a little bit of this one, a little bit of that one.

(I don't want to be the best, I do not and more likely will never do any gigs, etc. but do not want to waste even 1 minute of my practice time and want it to be as effective as possible)
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

I don't think you can focus on just one book and learn everything you need. Stick Control is good, but extremely tedious if it's the only thing you're doing. And the musical possibilities of the materials are not obvious. If you only did the SC flam and roll studies, you would not end up with an actual functional knowledge of flams/rolls-- the exercises are really designed to do just one thing.

So you have to do other things, too-- either a regular musical method book like Podemski, or a rudimental book like Haskell Harr 2.

I think Master Studies I/II will probably have the biggest direct influence on your playing.
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Old 11-07-2018, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Thank you!

Yes, I've started Master Studies with accented 8th and it was pretty challenging to do it properly with up/down strokes and that kind of things. So I decided to work on Accents and rebounds first. And it turned out that it's much more difficult than Master Studies. I barely can learn 2 lines per day.
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Old 11-07-2018, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Don't put limits on yourself. Study based on the limits you come upon in your real playing.

When I'm learning a new song or playing out and notice I'm having trouble doing something or not doing something well enough, I turn it into a mission and seek out the best technique styles to complete my mission. Wash and repeat!
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Old 11-07-2018, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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Originally Posted by Genazvale View Post
Thank you!

Yes, I've started Master Studies with accented 8th and it was pretty challenging to do it properly with up/down strokes and that kind of things. So I decided to work on Accents and rebounds first. And it turned out that it's much more difficult than Master Studies. I barely can learn 2 lines per day.
Right-- I think you should mix that up with things you can actually play at normal performance tempo-- find something where you can do a full page of patterns and drill that. Maybe 50/50 hard/slow stuff vs. stuff you can actually play through.

If you're ever making a book order, you might also get a thing called Chop Busters by Ron Fink. It's just a book of one-measure technical licks, that I think are more musically useful than the things in the other books. It's good relief from those other books.
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Old 11-07-2018, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Thanks for the advice, looks like something I was looking for for a while - hands development mixed with music melody. Definitely, want to have it.

Do you know if it's available in pdf somewhere? It costs $50 to deliver it to me from steveweissmusic.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

I agree that Chop-busters by Fink is really cool.

I know when my son was at Eastman he did some work in Baileys wrist twisters and liked that as well.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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Originally Posted by Genazvale View Post
Thank you!

Yes, I've started Master Studies with accented 8th and it was pretty challenging to do it properly with up/down strokes and that kind of things. So I decided to work on Accents and rebounds first. And it turned out that it's much more difficult than Master Studies. I barely can learn 2 lines per day.
Hi Genazvale,

I wrote The Level System as a way to transition to the accent studies in Master Studies and Accents and Rebound. You seem to be truly interested in the subject (upstrokes, downstrokes, etc.). So if you can’t find the book in your area, PM me and I will send you a copy for free.

Enough about my book. Another book that I really have enjoyed teaching out of is John Wooton’s Rudimental Remedies. It comes with a CD that has the snare part accompanied by musical backing tracks. Each track is presented at 7 different tempos. It is a challenging book, but students love it.

Todd and bigd, I really need to check out Buster Bailey’s book. I have always seen it listed, but never saw sample pages, so I never picked it up. I need to put that on my Christmas list!

Thanks,

Jeff
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Jeff-- Yes, it's a major work, definitely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genazvale View Post
Do you know if it's available in pdf somewhere? It costs $50 to deliver it to me from steveweissmusic.
That's what I figured-- maybe you can call them and get a cheaper media rate. Or if you order several things at once-- I don't know if it's available anywhere other than SW.

Or you could actually contact Fink directly-- search Fink Publishing in Denton, TX. I don't know if it's worth the trouble. I like the book myself.

Do get Jeff's book!
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:30 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

The problem with many of these methods is that they're static in nature.

It's a way to get started, but one should move on to etudes and interpretation exercises/studies IMO.

No, there's no book that covers everything, and you don't need to know everything. You need what helps you play the music you want to play.

A book is often a cyclopedia, though. It's just as important how you choose to work on it. Keep a log, see how your practice leads in the right direction, maybe not spending to much time(or any at all) on stuff you know.

Many books are just really interpretation of others. Would you have come up with those variations on your own? Who knows. They're essentially all useful, ot just depends.

If there's a certain style, time signature, grouping, accent pattern or whatever you want to get better at, how about doing everything in that way.

Wanna get better at playing in 7? Warm up in 7. Do all your technique work in seven. Play only in seven. Listen only to music in seven.
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

I get a little confused, you are doing Wrist Twisters, by Buster Bailey, and "want to be a good (relatively) drummer?" and "will never do any gigs"? You should be already a good drummer to do that book...(unless you can do only a few studies at TURTLE speed, haha).

In any case, all these methods are technique methods. To do ANY of those methods would help you with your technique, so personally I think it doesn¨t matter which one you do, even some are more difficult than others.

The thing is technique, is just part of playing the drums, so you have other extensive field to cover...Most great drummers i know never did any of those books (complete), and I know many. Not to say that ALL of them would give you more than enough technique to be a great drummer (at least in the technique departament). I wouldnt become obsesive...
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Hey, guys, thank you everyone for taking your time and sharing so valuable advises.

Special thanks to the guy who PM me the link to Ron Fink's book that is available on this side of Atlantic and cost me just €5 to get it. That's great!

jeffwj, I checked your book and I'd say those D, u, t, F are what is really missing in Accents and Rebounds. I spend a lot of time to figure out which one I have to lift up after the stroke and which one I have to leave above the pad for the next tap. But I bought a bunch of different books already and jump from one to another, which is what I want to avoid. But can't :)))) And it also not available within 7,000 km, lol

Thank you all. What I do now is 1h of SC and later about 30-40 min of WT. Will do it for 1 month and see how it works.
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Old 11-12-2018, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

The not jumping around isn't necessarily the result of finding the right book, though it depends on the subject matter.

Some books are made to go through for a beginner with a clear an logical progression to e.g. learn how to read.

When it comes to flexible material and really deep books though you're better off creating your own independent routine, keeping a log and use books as inspiration or just little pieces based on your own needs and interests. SC; Patterns Series, reading texts like New Bredd and Syncopation and anything similar to that is such material. It's popular because it's adaptable and you can base a whole method around such things.

I really believe most everything should be practiced in a musical context because that's the only way you'll know if it works and be able to call on it when needed.

A log is recommended because you'll cleraly see what's happening. Opening a book and starting on the same exercise every day is clearly not the way. When you know something, move on and concentrate on whatever is more difficult. Always ask the question; "What is this doing for my actual playing?"
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Old 11-12-2018, 10:48 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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t's adaptable and you can base a whole method around such things.
no, I can't. Maybe someone, who has experience can, but not me. Not at this point, at least.
Quote:
"What is this doing for my actual playing?"
I don't have any specific needs now. What I want is to develop my hands, so I can play all elements (rudiments) precisely, evenly, clearly, etc. Basically, develop control on the sticks.
Both books can do that for me. I just wanted to ask if I should stick with one method, because they're very different.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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Special thanks to the guy who PM me the link to Ron Fink's book that is available on this side of Atlantic and cost me just €5 to get it. That's great!
Cool! I hope you like it. He uses a shorthand for notating some of the stickings. You will probably figure them out, but feel free to ask here if you have any questions-- or just email me directly.
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Old 11-12-2018, 11:38 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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no, I can't. Maybe someone, who has experience can, but not me. Not at this point, at least.

I don't have any specific needs now. What I want is to develop my hands, so I can play all elements (rudiments) precisely, evenly, clearly, etc. Basically, develop control on the sticks.
Both books can do that for me. I just wanted to ask if I should stick with one method, because they're very different.
"You" is just a term like e.g. "one."

Yes, some one with experience can. This is part of the teachers job. Help you create a balanced method where musical and rhythmical understanding is the main ingredient.

Interpretation of a reading page or a specific rhythm is some of the most useful practicing you'll ever do. Most aspects of technique and coordination can be put into it.
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Old 12-10-2018, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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what is really missing in Accents and Rebounds. I spend a lot of time to figure out which one I have to lift up after the stroke and which one I have to leave above the pad for the next tap.
I don't know if all of you know it already, but I received a new edition of Accents & Rebounds a couple of weeks ago, and good news - they (finally) marked exercises with up/down strokes marks (see attached)! What a great update to the book! They instantly made it 3 times easier to learn!

Also, received recently Ron Fink's book. Looks really great, but exercises very similar to Wrist Twisters.

And, by the way, now I can answer the question from the first post in this thread. After one month Wrist Twisters made an absolute magic to my hands and technique. I improved a lot, literally see progress every day. The greatest book, for sure.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

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Originally Posted by Genazvale View Post
I don't know if all of you know it already, but I received a new edition of Accents & Rebounds a couple of weeks ago, and good news - they (finally) marked exercises with up/down strokes marks (see attached)! What a great update to the book! They instantly made it 3 times easier to learn!

Also, received recently Ron Fink's book. Looks really great, but exercises very similar to Wrist Twisters.

And, by the way, now I can answer the question from the first post in this thread. After one month Wrist Twisters made an absolute magic to my hands and technique. I improved a lot, literally see progress every day. The greatest book, for sure.
Very cool. As an addendum to this, there's a study guide to Accents and Rebounds (by Joe Morello students Danny Gottlieb and Steve Forster) on the Stone Percussion Books web site right here: http://www.stonepercussionbooks.com/...-rebounds.html

Even though it's presented as a study guide for Accents and Rebounds, it's really just an overall guide to Stone's approach in general.

Talking about Steve Forster, he's the guy who wrote a really nice book (albeit with a very unsexy title) of Stick Control variations (many of which he got from Morello): https://www.amazon.com/Binary-Algorh.../dp/1539807975
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Quote:
Originally Posted by Genazvale View Post
I don't know if all of you know it already, but I received a new edition of Accents & Rebounds a couple of weeks ago, and good news - they (finally) marked exercises with up/down strokes marks (see attached)! What a great update to the book! They instantly made it 3 times easier to learn!

Also, received recently Ron Fink's book. Looks really great, but exercises very similar to Wrist Twisters.

And, by the way, now I can answer the question from the first post in this thread. After one month Wrist Twisters made an absolute magic to my hands and technique. I improved a lot, literally see progress every day. The greatest book, for sure.
Very cool. As an addendum to this, there's a study guide to Accents and Rebounds (by Joe Morello students Danny Gottlieb and Steve Forster) on the Stone Percussion Books web site right here: http://www.stonepercussionbooks.com/...-rebounds.html

Even though it's presented as a study guide for Accents and Rebounds, it's really just an overall guide to Stone's approach in general.

Talking about Steve Forster, he's the guy who wrote a really nice book (albeit with a very unsexy title) of Stick Control variations (many of which he got from Morello): https://www.amazon.com/Binary-Algorh.../dp/1539807975
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Old 01-20-2019, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

Hand technique can be a never ending cul-de-sac as you pursue mastering its challenges. And each method's adherents can become like religious fanatics. There are Stick Control fanatics, Murray Spivak fanatics, Freddy Gruber fanatics, Moeller fanatics, Buster Bailey fanatics, Gladstone fanatics. Believe me, in my early days all these methods drove me crazy, trying to find "The One."

I no longer believe in one of these orthodoxies, or cults. They all have something to offer, but the journey is yours.

As for myself, a jazz drummer, I find just learning to swing the 26 rudiments is a lifetime study. Philly Joe was my man, and so Wilcoxon's Swing Solos book became my bible, because it teaches you to put syncopation into the rudiments, which you need for rudimental execution in bebop.

The focus ought to be on playing the drum set musically. I say teach yourself a good single and double stroke roll, and flam and a paradiddle, and learn--through your own creativity--to mix them up. Learn a press roll. Then play to the music. It's your journey, and you get to choose.
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Old 01-23-2019, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: Wrist Twisters vs Stick Control

That's true and pretty obvious, actually.

However, after two months with Wrist Twisters, I can say that it is much more effective than other books I tried (SC, Master Studies, etc). I literally feel the progress every single day. This is an absolutely amazing book, extremely effective.
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