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Old 01-22-2013, 11:10 AM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

Hey all! Im new to the forum although I was on here for about 2 years a while back. Im gonna cut straight to the chase, im not the worlds biggest expert on drums, but I can maintain and tune my kit with no dramas (To an extent it seems!)

I used to have a Premier Royale and after investing in some good batter heads it always sounded awesome. Unfortunately I had to stop drumming for 4 years as I went into the army and never had time for it, but now that I'm out I treated myself to a Tama Rockstar Custom as it was going very cheap, and it sounded alright, but then I put on some Evans EC2 clear heads on the rack toms and an Evans Genera G1 clear on the floor tom and when wearing big ear defenders (Amplivox as I know them) The toms sound absolutely studio perfect, nice and punchy with quite a quick decay. However, in my shed they have really twangy overtones and resonate a lot more than I'd like.

Now at first I thought this must be due to the fact its a small brickwork room, its never going to sound awesome, but when I took my drums to a studio last night, they sounded the same, and they sound the same in my room. They have stock tama reso heads and I haven't changed anything reso side, just batter.

Is it a simple matter of fine tuning, do the reso heads really come into it that much? and I know the room makes a difference. But why is it they sound perfect with big ear defenders on?

Sorry if this had been answered, Ive searched the forum and can't seem to find the exact answers and details Im looking for, and I guessed I may aswel see what you guys think!

Oh yeah, the drums are 7ply. 1 ply inner basswood, 5 ply phillipine mahogany (I KNOW!) and 1 ply outer basswood. 10 x 9 R, 12 x 10 R, 14 x 12 Mounted floor tom.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:25 AM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

I dont know if that post was clear or not, the point I was making was on my Premier Royale, after putting new batter heads on and not so much as thinking of the reso heads, it sounded awesome in every room, but the Rockstar doesnt. I know they wont sound exactly the same as they are different kits and different wood, but its the twangy bongy overtones that are doing my head in, its fine when Im playing with the ear defenders on but when it comes to playing live and stuff I wouldnt be happy with the sound I'm getting at all!
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:27 AM
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keep it simple keep it simple is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

There's a number of contributing factors here, but before I can give you a checklist, does your 14" x 12" sound better than the other two toms?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:27 AM
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xsarith xsarith is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

I'm not an expert either but I would put it down to the room, every aspect of the room is going to change the sound, the shape, material, height, flooring, etc. so In some rooms the over tone get more predominant.

The way overtones work is that they are harmonic, this means that the frequency of each overtone is a multiple of the fundamental pitch/frequency,harmonics are also half the volume. so in essence the overtones are all higher than the fundamental pitch that the drum is at, so because your wearing ear defenders your blocking out the higher frequencies of the overtones but the lowest frequency remains the same, just quieter, meaning that your drums will sound processed.

However they might be some in-harmonic overtones as well which get a bit more complicated but the theory still maintains.

Anyway your drums will sound different in each room and Id say fine tune it in each room, or apply some moon gel if its too ridiculous.

The reso head is also highly important too and shouldn't be neglected.

I could be wrong about all this though haha.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:30 AM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

@ Keep it simple - The floor tom sounds worse than the others :( Its really bongy and overtoney, it literally makes me cringe everytime I hit it. The sound I would like is really punchy toms with short decay, would coated batter heads be better for this? Also, I know nothing about reso heads, what would you guys recommend for the sound I'm trying to acheive?
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  #6  
Old 01-22-2013, 11:31 AM
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

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Originally Posted by xsarith View Post
I'm not an expert either but I would put it down to the room, every aspect of the room is going to change the sound, the shape, material, height, flooring, etc. so In some rooms the over tone get more predominant.

The way overtones work is that they are harmonic, this means that the frequency of each overtone is a multiple of the fundamental pitch/frequency,harmonics are also half the volume. so in essence the overtones are all higher than the fundamental pitch that the drum is at, so because your wearing ear defenders your blocking out the higher frequencies of the overtones but the lowest frequency remains the same, just quieter, meaning that your drums will sound processed.

However they might be some in-harmonic overtones as well which get a bit more complicated but the theory still maintains.

Anyway your drums will sound different in each room and Id say fine tune it in each room, or apply some moon gel if its too ridiculous.

The reso head is also highly important too and shouldn't be neglected.

I could be wrong about all this though haha.
Pretty damn spot on reasoning IMO, but there may be more at play here too, hence my question.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:41 AM
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Pretty damn spot on reasoning IMO, but there may be more at play here too, hence my question.
Aye I was hoping so, I've never really bothered about overtones as long as my kit was tuned right, I know I'll never get a processed studio sound so I don't fight them maybe a dab of moon gel at the most, but because of this topics about it become guess work.

I just figured my snare always sounds different in every room and I've just learned about harmonics and in-harmonics and it makes sense that it could be that but your right there a lot more that influence it.
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  #8  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:02 PM
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

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Originally Posted by sk8inmadkid View Post
@ Keep it simple - The floor tom sounds worse than the others :( Its really bongy and overtoney, it literally makes me cringe everytime I hit it. The sound I would like is really punchy toms with short decay, would coated batter heads be better for this? Also, I know nothing about reso heads, what would you guys recommend for the sound I'm trying to acheive?
Hmmm, ok, I'll have a go, but it's an informed guess, mainly because I know nothing about your tuning skills. Any chance of a basic recording of the kit?

Xsarith's reply was spot on. Your isolating phones effectively filter out overtones, so let's park that one. Basswood is soft, & produces a fairly low & mellow tone, all things being equal. The reason I asked you about your 14" tom was because of the difference in depth to diameter ratio. It should produce a cleaner tone, with a more defined fundamental than the other two toms.

Shell resonance & head sustain are very different subjects. By shorter note, I'm assuming you want less head sustain. I'm also getting that you like a pre EQ'd sound. Your reso heads are important. Usually, changing out stock reso heads has great benefits, as they're typically crap. Coated heads will get you closer to a pre EQ'd sound, plus they'll reduce head sustain quite a bit too. Don't be too tempted to go for very muffled batter heads. They will cut head sustain, but they'll also cut tone on the drums you have. This may be a fairly out there suggestion, as I usually shoot for a fairly light reso head, but in your case, & especially considering the drums you have, let's match weights. Try Evans Gplus coated batter on your two smaller toms, & G14 coated batter on your 14" tom. Equally, partner them with Gplus clear resos on your two smaller toms, & G14 clear reso on your 14" tom. That should produce a very fat & short drum, but still with as much tone as possible. If you want the response to be even shorter, tighten the reso head increasingly more than the batter head. That will kill off any head sustain, & is a much better solution than adding gel or similar.

Remember, you need some sustain to flesh out the fundamental. Without it, your drums will sound flat & dead as soon as you place them into a band/music context.

Good luck :)
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  #9  
Old 01-22-2013, 12:14 PM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

Fantastic, cheers for the responses guys! I get paid in a few days so I will try those heads and let you guys know! I can probably get a basic recording of my kit this afternoon but it will be from my Macbook so quality wont be that great to be fair, but I will upload it and link it on here just so you guys can hopefully fully understand where I'm coming from :)

Cheers again fellas!
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2013, 09:40 PM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

With regards to the reso heads, will it be Gplus reso and G14 reso or the Gplus and G14 clear?
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  #11  
Old 02-20-2013, 09:41 PM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

only asking as I can't seem to find any specifically reso heads on ebay or my local drum shops, only coated and clear, but I was assuming they are both batter heads
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2013, 11:45 PM
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

They work for both. If you'd really like a warm note with less sustain, a coated reso will do that. A clear will give you a bit more resonance. I think for what you described, you'd want a clear resonant head. And yes, they work for both batter and resonant side heads. Have fun!
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  #13  
Old 02-23-2013, 12:52 AM
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johnnylaw johnnylaw is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

I have a Yamaha three shell pack (one up, one down), and the character of each drum among the others became more balanced and appropriately toneful when I put a single-ply coated head reso-side on the 14" floor tom (it was just a trifle too lively compared to the the others). The kit's musicality is now more integrated and in character with itself.

It took a bit of experimentation, but it was worth it.

I bet you get it sorted!

Cheers
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  #14  
Old 02-23-2013, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

I JUST went through this, I stopped playing for ~ 15 years, and just busted out my set again.
I used to play Just Above Wrinkle(they had CS Black dots on them), but wanted more rebound and feel off the toms, so I bought Evans G2 Batter heads(these drums NEVER saw a coated head), and new Ebony Ambassadors for resos.
As K.I.S just stated, I tightened the bottom head much higher to shorten the sustain(low resonance, I'm playing in an unfinished basement, alone- so no worries with a band right now, I want quick notes without the long bonnnnnnnng).

These drums sound better than ever, I wanted shorter sustain, and a warmer sound- the G2's took care of the warmth, and having the reso tightened more than the batter took care of the rest....
It helped that I had a tune-bot to go over all the options, I started with equal pitch(Max resonance), and the BONNNNNNNNNNG was LONNNNNG and never ending, so I went to their chart and saw lowest resonance(which is what I wanted), pitched it that way,and bam- that was what I was looking for in my current situation.
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Old 02-23-2013, 09:55 AM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

FWIW, when I hear the term boingy...that tone happens when the batter is tighter than the reso. A looser batter (by comparison to the reso) to a tighter reso eliminates that boingy tone. Not sure if this is what you are experiencing. I'd check the batter/reso relationship to see if it is a simple tuning issue. And yeah, put some new EvAquariRemo heads on the reso side. Reso heads are how you fine tune your drums.
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  #16  
Old 02-23-2013, 10:27 AM
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

You can eliminate that twanginess if you remove all of your bottom heads ;)
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  #17  
Old 02-23-2013, 11:10 AM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

Oh, I didn't know any of that about the reso head things! I didn't actually know anything about reso heads, thanks very much guys! Been a big help, I will double check and retune it all, and let you know how I get on! I will most likely get coated heads though, all the kits ive played, regardless of wood, have always sounded better in my opinion, with coated heads, but my drums sound pretty good at the moment with ear defenders on, so if I can keep the tone without the overtones as they are, that would be a bonus and save me re-skinning! Seeing as I bought them with new EC2 and Genera G2 heads just fitted!


Thanks again guys! :)

P.S - Does removing reso heads actually do that or were you being sarcastic/joking?
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:40 PM
Groeger Groeger is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

Sounds like a classic case of proximity effect tuning. While the overtones you hear may be out of tune with each other (thereby making them less desirable), the resonance of the drum is why people spend $5k+ on shells. The longer you play, the more you tend to appreciate the true sonic characteristics of a drum... That sounded pretentious... no offense intended.

In your own practice room, you can tune your drums any darn way you please. I almost always play with hearing protection, so my biggest suggestion is that you get a set of those blue vic firth headphones (or similar) and enjoy the "studio" sound that you'll get from just about any old tub.

If you insist on hearing the studio sound behind the kit, you'd better be using a close mic setup live though. The resonance/overtones are part of the projection and cut of the drum. Muffle the junk out of your kit, or use some triple ply pre-muffled drumheads, and your drums will sound like expensive cardboard boxes from 20 feet away, if they're even heard through the mix.

I don't use muffling of any sort any more. If I want a darker sound, I use emperors (I'm playing a set of vintage emperors right now), something brighter and I go ambassadors.

Tune em how you like em! Equal pitch, good drum heads, a clean bearing edge are the start. If you don't like it after that, go to rings, gels or the like. You could also just call it a day and get a full set of those Evans hydraulics!
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:52 PM
sk8inmadkid sk8inmadkid is offline
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Default Re: "Twangy" Overtones and the importance of reso heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groeger View Post
Sounds like a classic case of proximity effect tuning. While the overtones you hear may be out of tune with each other (thereby making them less desirable), the resonance of the drum is why people spend $5k+ on shells. The longer you play, the more you tend to appreciate the true sonic characteristics of a drum... That sounded pretentious... no offense intended.

In your own practice room, you can tune your drums any darn way you please. I almost always play with hearing protection, so my biggest suggestion is that you get a set of those blue vic firth headphones (or similar) and enjoy the "studio" sound that you'll get from just about any old tub.

If you insist on hearing the studio sound behind the kit, you'd better be using a close mic setup live though. The resonance/overtones are part of the projection and cut of the drum. Muffle the junk out of your kit, or use some triple ply pre-muffled drumheads, and your drums will sound like expensive cardboard boxes from 20 feet away, if they're even heard through the mix.

I don't use muffling of any sort any more. If I want a darker sound, I use emperors (I'm playing a set of vintage emperors right now), something brighter and I go ambassadors.

Tune em how you like em! Equal pitch, good drum heads, a clean bearing edge are the start. If you don't like it after that, go to rings, gels or the like. You could also just call it a day and get a full set of those Evans hydraulics!


Yeah I get what your saying, it is all down to personal preference as you said though :) obviously as you also said, resonance and tone is a good thing, but it literally is such a long "Bong/Boing/bwooooong" sound (Best way to describe it spelling wise!)

is there anyway I can get the sound I want (Short, punchy and Fat i guess i'd call it) without killing too much of the projection for when it comes to live shows etc? Or is it just me being a bit crap at tuning? haha
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