Confusion about playing behind/ahead of the beat

ba dum tish

Member
I've heard people talk about playing ahead and behind the beat and I've never been sure what this really means or why you would do it. If you're playing behind the beat, does that mean that you hit everything you would normally hit a fraction of a second later than you would if you were playing it in perfect time with the metronome? Or do you just play the snare hit a fraction of a second later, and keep everything else (bass drum, etc) in perfect time?

To me it seems like this would be really hard to do without a metronome to help guide you, since you naturally want to try to stay on the beat. Could someone give me an example of either of these techniques being used in a song? or some pointers on how to develop this skill and what the advantages of it would be? I'd really appreciate it.
 
I hope that this helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90vnMmISi4M
When playing out of pocket it is important to keep the beat from slowing down.
You pick one element of the beat and you play it early or late.
The snare is the most common but the bass and the ride can also be used to play ahead or behind.

lLsten to how his playing seems lazy but he never slows down.
 
I hope that this helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90vnMmISi4M
When playing out of pocket it is important to keep the beat from slowing down.
You pick one element of the beat and you play it early or late.
The snare is the most common but the bass and the ride can also be used to play ahead or behind.

lLsten to how his playing seems lazy but he never slows down.

thanks for the video, very interesting and helpful. but this also brings up another point of confusion I had. does playing in the pocket mean just playing directly on the beat then, as precisely in time as possible? I was under the impression that it meant something more, but I never knew for sure.
 
Yes, In The Pocket means that you are right on the beat.
Just like when you sink a ball in a game of pool!
You are right on the mark.
 
I've heard people talk about playing ahead and behind the beat and I've never been sure what this really means or why you would do it. If you're playing behind the beat, does that mean that you hit everything you would normally hit a fraction of a second later than you would if you were playing it in perfect time with the metronome? Or do you just play the snare hit a fraction of a second later, and keep everything else (bass drum, etc) in perfect time?

To me it seems like this would be really hard to do without a metronome to help guide you, since you naturally want to try to stay on the beat. Could someone give me an example of either of these techniques being used in a song? or some pointers on how to develop this skill and what the advantages of it would be? I'd really appreciate it.


Playing "behind the beat" can mean a few different things. In the first Elvin Jones example, the drummer is also "bending" the time, blurring the distinction between straight and swung. Occasionally some downbeats are late, but he catches up. Two different things going on here, often in the same measure, in this "lazy" playing.

To play behind the beat as a drummer requires the presence of a metronome, or a musician who wants to play slightly ahead of you (a rare bird indeed!). In most traditions, the band plays on, or slightly behind the drums, so the drums take an on-center approach. A horn section will play behind the drummer as well, more so if they're unfamiliar with their material! ;) A rock guitarist might play ahead of the drums, but may also prefer to play on-center (think Green Day).

Another way to play behind the beat is to stretch the distance between beat 1 and beat 2 a bit (and I mean just a tiny bit!). A great example is P-Funk's Up For The Downstroke! All four quarter notes are not created equal! Weird, but man does it work! It makes the 1 feel so much heavier! I don't think P-Funk was sober enough to know what they were doing, btw.

To learn to play behind the beat, get out your metronome and play quarters with one hand on the hi-hat. Allow yourself to get behind, but stay behind only slightly, so that the click and your hit create a flam. Now rush a bit and catch up to the click, then drag a bit and get behind again. Repeat this process with your left hand, then bass drum, and then finally with a simple beat.

Repeat the above exercise, but this time rush a bit and get ahead of the click, then drag and return to being on-center, and so on.

To really feel who is playing behind the beat takes quite a bit of experience. My band right now has a bass player who is on-center, or ahead, of the beat. He's a good player, but it's frustrating, and it doesn't sound right.

About "pocket":

In gospel circles, playing "in the pocket" usually means playing good time, keeping the beat steady, and with the appropriate feel (straight, swung, etc.). But "playing pocket" usually means playing without much embellishment or fills.
 
Brent's response is good, practical advice.

Often, you'll hear great players keep the hihats down the middle - creating an "objective" reference point without a metronome.... -- and use the BD and SD to create a feeling of pushing or pulling against that center. It's easy to experiment with this by simply imagining your limbs flamming a little bit. The trick is to be able to control it and be consistent, so it takes a great amount of control, and the best way to get that control is to practice getting your limbs exactly together. Record yourself and listen to the difference in the feel when you move one limb or other ahead or behind the centred hats. My suggestion is start playing something simple and keep the BD and HH centred on the click and experiment with the SD common thing is to push the BD a little and pull back on the SD. Playing the SD slightly behind the hats seems to give the backbeat more breadth than playing ahead - it's literally a longer sound so that it sounds heavier, or lazy in time. I think the effect is magnified because of the softer attack of the hats. Just a theory...

Here's Russ Miller giving some examples of this sort of exercise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIfgHJTztmI

Basically, we're now thinking of the different instruments in the drum set as...well...different instruments that can create tension or consonance with each other the same way members of a band might.

Also, using different sounds, timbres and dynamic levels also can help with the illusion of playing heavier (back) or lighter (forward). Hihats struck lightly with the tip can give a more forward feel than if you lay in with the shank of the stick creating a longer sound. SD tuning can have a real effect on this too, as can the difference between a centre hit and a poppier rim shot played closer to the rim.

Here's the inimitable Steve Jordan demonstrating this concept: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sytTr6kV5Dw&feature=related
 
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The drummers of Stone Temple Pilots and Black Sabbath are really good at playing behind the beat. You really notice it during their live performances.
 
I'll never get this concept. As I understand it, you have to slightly flam stuff, right? That will never sound right to me. I was at an audition recently and was complemented for my behind the beat feel without dragging. I didn't know what he was talking about. I use my brainpower to deliver an appropriate feeling tempo, and all my hits line up. No flams. I play right on the beat, always. Now I will give the tempo a laid back feel, or perhaps push the tempo slightly in a jump type tune, but if I had to flam every backbeat ahead or behind a reference point (the hats), I'd be thinking too much and my brain would hurt. There's no way I'm thinking of every hit being before, after or right with my hi hat. When I hear respected players talk about this, I know I'll never get it. Like I said, I'll play with tempo sometimes, lay back ever so slightly for the vocals, push the soloists again ever so slightly, (if appropriate) but I'm not intentionally flamming, no way. So when I hear "play behind the beat", I do that with tempo, not flamming my backbeat. Not saying I'm right here, just saying that my hits line up always unless I'm playing intentional flams. I couldn't do it any other way. Am I alone in this thought?

Boomka, I watched the Russ Miller vid and at the risk of appearing ignorant, I couldn't hear or feel a diff when he was playing behind, ahead, and combinations. They all sounded the same to me.

So you have to flam to play behind or ahead of the beat, that's how I understand it. Is this off?
 
thanks for the responses!

Brent - I will definitely try that practice routine, thanks.

Boomka - I watched the Russ Miller video and it was nice to finally see something concrete on this obscure (to me at least) concept. But like Larry I couldn't tell the difference from when he was playing behind or ahead or on top of the beat, even when I slowed down the audio. Maybe my ears just aren't tuned in enough to the subtleties of this technique to hear it yet. To me it seems like something that could only be appreciated by (or even noticeable to) a fellow musician who was trained in such a technique. My initial feelings on this whole concept are much like those of Larry's. It just doesn't feel right to TRY to play slightly offbeat, after spending so much time attempting nothing but playing perfectly on the beat. But I don't doubt the drumming vets who promote this technique and I put my faith in their word before my initial intuition on this topic. And I will strive to understand this and dedicate time to practicing it.

I still have a few more questions. When playing ahead/behind the beat, is it customary to keep the downbeat crashes directly on top of the beat? also, how does this work when you incorporate fills? is every note held back/pushed ahead in them as well? like Larry said, it seems like too much to think about, but again it seems like enough professional drummers utilize this so there must be something behind it.
 
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Yes, In The Pocket means that you are right on the beat.
Just like when you sink a ball in a game of pool!
You are right on the mark.

Got to disagree with you Bob! Playing in the pocket can encompass playing with (or on) the click and can also involve playing slightly behind the beat or in front. If you were right on this then drum machines would be in the pocket and they are not. In fact the players that we most associate as "pocket" players are often associated with playing slightly behind the beat: Jeff Porcaro, Steve Jordan, Steve Ferrone all have a signature groove which is slightly behind the beat. Even JR Robinson talks about finding the pocket by playing the bass drum (1 and 3) pulse slighty behind. No-one would ever accuse JR of not being a pocket player.

It is an amorphous concept which you know when you hear it but I don't think it has anything to do with being "on" the click.

Just my thoughts.

Paul
 
Cannot hear the differences in Russ Miller video.

However, this guy displays the same thing, and his ahead/behind playing is much more noticeable: (I can't really hear the "ahead" section well in the jam with the song, but it's noticeably so different from the behind the beat playalong)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJVysQahwe4

I can feel the behind the beat easier cause I'm used to putting my snare behind the beat. It took a while for this to feel natural, but I just played along to stuff like James Brown's Try Me, with two sticks on the pad so I could feel exactly how fat my "flam" needed to be (not very).

When I was just practising on the cymbal/snare at first the flams were either too fat or inconsistent. But after sticking the hands on the same surface and keeping the notes closer together consistently now I find myself doing it automatically in stuff like ballads and heavy four on the floor type stuff, or anything that sounds better with a more laid back feel. It just happens and I don't think about it. I can't play ahead of the beat well, at least in any way I could be conscious of.
 
To me it seems like something that could only be appreciated by (or even noticeable to) a fellow musician who was trained in such a technique.

Not really. Like in a classic jazz setting, with the drummer feathering the bass drum on every quarter note, the audience may not even realize a bass drum is being played, but it radically alters the feeling of the whole mix of sounds. When a drummer is playing ahead of the beat with the whole band, it really affects how the music is perceived, mostly subconsciously. Think about The Police: Do you really think a laid back feeling would give that band the drive and jump their songs have?


Fox.
 
Yes, In The Pocket means that you are right on the beat.
Just like when you sink a ball in a game of pool!
You are right on the mark.

No WAY!!! The pocket is just groovin. Its not ahead or behind, it can be either, its just groovin. Pocket should not be uttered in the conversation. Plenty of dudes with deep pockets behind the beat, plenty of guys ahead.

I like to think like this. Ahead of the beat is sliding into 2nd base in baseball. You have all this momentum and its sliding into the beat. Behind the beat is pushing out of it, the beat happens, its immediately acknowledged, but instead of using that pushing momentum from ahead of the beat, you have to build momentum and burst of the best, not slide into it.
 
About the Russ Miller video, I don't buy it. I do in fact hear the (very slight) dragging or pushing of the bass and snare hits, and it doesn't sound good to my ears. I don't see the application of this sort of playing. As an exercise in control, I suppose it has some value, but that's it. If you want to play behind the beat, drag the whole groove -- hi-hats, bass drum, snare, fills, everything just behind the click, by a consistent amount.

About the Steve Jordan video, I think he has a point, but fails to demonstrate it well. In the first groove, he's playing on-center, and his bass player is dragging behind a bit. It's a nice groove. In the second part, Steve attempts a more "ahead" feel, but the bass player doesn't stay steady, he rushes a bit to catch up with the drums. As a result, the whole groove gets a bit faster, with Steve playing on center, and the bass player playing behind the beat. It sounds different with the new snare, stick technique, and faster tempo, but the time centers are the same in both parts. The same experiment would have been more effective if a click track were used and made audible to the audience. I love Steve Jordan's playing as much as anyone, but not all players make great educators!

As for JR Robinson, import Billie Jean into some audio editing software, and measure the transients. Very telling.
 
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