STICK CONTROL (George L Stone) Your experiences and suggestions
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King Of Drums
Senior Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Hmm I've recently started using this book in a way to co-ordinate my limbs and I am seeing results quickly. Basically I've just used the first page and played one sticking with the feet and the other with the hands over top of it. I am going to try to play every pattern against every pattern on the page I think it will greatly improve my independence. Then you can play stuff from the sections on triplets with the first page for some polyrhythms. The combinations are endless. I also like to work on co-ordination and bass drum speed by playing the patterns between my left hand and right foot it has helped my bass drum speed/control a lot.
Hmm I've recently started using this book in a way to co-ordinate my limbs and I am seeing results quickly. Basically I've just used the first page and played one sticking with the feet and the other with the hands over top of it. I am going to try to play every pattern against every pattern on the page I think it will greatly improve my independence. Then you can play stuff from the sections on triplets with the first page for some polyrhythms. The combinations are endless. I also like to work on co-ordination and bass drum speed by playing the patterns between my left hand and right foot it has helped my bass drum speed/control a lot.
Wernervonwaltsleben
Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
hey guys.how goes?
im realy sorry for this stupid question actually, i just want to make sure.
if i do like the stick control book, im also busy doing masterstudies by joe morello.
but with the whole wrist and finger thing.
if i do the exercises in for example master studies.the slow speeds are obviously with your wrists.if i increase the tempo to do the exercise must i use my wrists till i must turn over to finger or how must i do it.
and is there a wrong way of holding a stick, ive been realy looking into stick grip lately.and i bought me the natural evolution, how to develop technique by dave weckl, just to see if im doing something wrong.realy sorry to send this lame picture, but is that correct.im just worried that im doing it wrong.if i do fingers i just flip my hand around(french grip, only for fingers)
the first pic is how my hand looks when i stop playing, lifted my hand up from the pad and took the photo.and the other one is when i play.
plz tell me.sorry again, this is lame.ive been playing for 5 years and now im asking questions about stick grip.lame
hey guys.how goes?
im realy sorry for this stupid question actually, i just want to make sure.
if i do like the stick control book, im also busy doing masterstudies by joe morello.
but with the whole wrist and finger thing.
if i do the exercises in for example master studies.the slow speeds are obviously with your wrists.if i increase the tempo to do the exercise must i use my wrists till i must turn over to finger or how must i do it.
and is there a wrong way of holding a stick, ive been realy looking into stick grip lately.and i bought me the natural evolution, how to develop technique by dave weckl, just to see if im doing something wrong.realy sorry to send this lame picture, but is that correct.im just worried that im doing it wrong.if i do fingers i just flip my hand around(french grip, only for fingers)
the first pic is how my hand looks when i stop playing, lifted my hand up from the pad and took the photo.and the other one is when i play.
plz tell me.sorry again, this is lame.ive been playing for 5 years and now im asking questions about stick grip.lame
centralzeke
Senior Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
It looks fine to me.
People really have to see it in motion, because many different grips can be used as long as the motions are correct. It's much more practical to analyze an incorrect motion (or stroke) than a grip.
It looks fine to me.
People really have to see it in motion, because many different grips can be used as long as the motions are correct. It's much more practical to analyze an incorrect motion (or stroke) than a grip.
Wernervonwaltsleben
Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
whoah, the floor looks so bad on that photo.it's not how it looks normally.promise
thanx for saying that dude.im realy so worried about technique and stuff.
whoah, the floor looks so bad on that photo.it's not how it looks normally.promise
thanx for saying that dude.im realy so worried about technique and stuff.
Therma lobsterdore
Senior Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Hey guys, just thought I'd relate some recent changes that have happened with how I use stick control.
I'm a double bass drummer and I've been using jazzsnob's idea of concentrating on the first page for several months, I've gone through the other pages but now I just focus on the first one.
Previously, I would go through the first page with both my hands and feet at the same time, this is fine until I get towards 200bpm (in 8th's) where my feet start to really struggle, I persevered with this for a while but I've now concluded that this was seriously taking away from what I was doing with my hands, to the point where I was almost exclusively concentrating on my feet.
After watching JoJo Mayer's new DVD (which is awesome) I've decided to just single stroke roll with my feet whilst I go through the exercise's on page one, this has allowed me start incorporating open/close double strokes and moeller triplets/quads as I work through page one.
I've taken the speed back down to 160 so I can get used to using all these different hand techniques. So far it's working out great, I'm working several different hand techniques and I'm working hand/feet independence at the same time.
I still practice rudiments on my feet separately, but for my main foot workout I now go through the linear fills in Joe franco's double bass drumming book, which seems to be working out fine too.
Hey guys, just thought I'd relate some recent changes that have happened with how I use stick control.
I'm a double bass drummer and I've been using jazzsnob's idea of concentrating on the first page for several months, I've gone through the other pages but now I just focus on the first one.
Previously, I would go through the first page with both my hands and feet at the same time, this is fine until I get towards 200bpm (in 8th's) where my feet start to really struggle, I persevered with this for a while but I've now concluded that this was seriously taking away from what I was doing with my hands, to the point where I was almost exclusively concentrating on my feet.
After watching JoJo Mayer's new DVD (which is awesome) I've decided to just single stroke roll with my feet whilst I go through the exercise's on page one, this has allowed me start incorporating open/close double strokes and moeller triplets/quads as I work through page one.
I've taken the speed back down to 160 so I can get used to using all these different hand techniques. So far it's working out great, I'm working several different hand techniques and I'm working hand/feet independence at the same time.
I still practice rudiments on my feet separately, but for my main foot workout I now go through the linear fills in Joe franco's double bass drumming book, which seems to be working out fine too.
jazzsnob
Silver Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Well do you want to hear some commentary on your grip? I'm assuming so, because you asked.
The first issue with your grip is your wrist. It's almost turned as if you were about to shake someones hand. To do stick control well you really need a loose, even wrist motion. Try moving your hand up and down with your wrist how it is in the photo vs. completely flat, parallel to the floor.
It also looks like you are holding the sticks too tightly, when you have your knuckles wrapped around your stick you can't use your fingers very well, because you are using your knuckles to clamp on the stick, as opposed to using your fingers as clamps and your knuckles as hinges (I'm not sure if this is the best term, but if you hold the stick farther out in your fingers, you can get more control and power out of your fingers because the knuckles actually do some work as opposed to just curling up). This also makes it a good idea to flatten your wrist out(for pad work at least) because you can't even properly execute french grip right now.
You never want to start a stick control exercise with tension. It looks to me like just holding your stick how you do creates a bit of tension, but hey, maybe you're really loose and can rock that grip, that's cool then. I'd suggest opening things in your grip up, checking your posture, keep everything as loose as you can.
It's not the worst grip in the world or anything, but especially if you think you want to do gladstone, you have to change your grip up. One major part of gladstone is a specific grip, and as of now, yours is incorrect.
Of course don't worry about any of this too much, your grip will always change and develop, but these might be things you figure out down the road anyway, so I don't know.
Good luck.
whoah, the floor looks so bad on that photo.it's not how it looks normally.promise
thanx for saying that dude.im realy so worried about technique and stuff.
Well do you want to hear some commentary on your grip? I'm assuming so, because you asked.
The first issue with your grip is your wrist. It's almost turned as if you were about to shake someones hand. To do stick control well you really need a loose, even wrist motion. Try moving your hand up and down with your wrist how it is in the photo vs. completely flat, parallel to the floor.
It also looks like you are holding the sticks too tightly, when you have your knuckles wrapped around your stick you can't use your fingers very well, because you are using your knuckles to clamp on the stick, as opposed to using your fingers as clamps and your knuckles as hinges (I'm not sure if this is the best term, but if you hold the stick farther out in your fingers, you can get more control and power out of your fingers because the knuckles actually do some work as opposed to just curling up). This also makes it a good idea to flatten your wrist out(for pad work at least) because you can't even properly execute french grip right now.
You never want to start a stick control exercise with tension. It looks to me like just holding your stick how you do creates a bit of tension, but hey, maybe you're really loose and can rock that grip, that's cool then. I'd suggest opening things in your grip up, checking your posture, keep everything as loose as you can.
It's not the worst grip in the world or anything, but especially if you think you want to do gladstone, you have to change your grip up. One major part of gladstone is a specific grip, and as of now, yours is incorrect.
Of course don't worry about any of this too much, your grip will always change and develop, but these might be things you figure out down the road anyway, so I don't know.
Good luck.
Wernervonwaltsleben
Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
thanx alot.i appreciate your help.
i took that pic while i was doing like a 220 bpm single stroke thingie with the one hand.i know my hand looks kinda stiff and stuff, but if you go over a certain speed, say 230bpm(im not like a amateurish guy, it's all about speed stuff), isint the stick grip gonna change slighty in your hand like when you go fast.usually when i do something fast, i feel my fingers and my wrists working or if i flip my hand to french grip, thats when i only do fingers.i dont play french grip like for wrists and stuff.but if i play fast and i stop and then i adjust my hand on the stick again.is that normal or not.or do you hand stay exactly the same as of youre playing something realy slow.cause i realy dont feel like stiff or anything.damn, its hard.i dont know what to think.how do someone practice stick grip.should i hold the stick and just do slow exercises with it and get used to the feeling of the grip or something?
thanx alot.i appreciate your help.
i took that pic while i was doing like a 220 bpm single stroke thingie with the one hand.i know my hand looks kinda stiff and stuff, but if you go over a certain speed, say 230bpm(im not like a amateurish guy, it's all about speed stuff), isint the stick grip gonna change slighty in your hand like when you go fast.usually when i do something fast, i feel my fingers and my wrists working or if i flip my hand to french grip, thats when i only do fingers.i dont play french grip like for wrists and stuff.but if i play fast and i stop and then i adjust my hand on the stick again.is that normal or not.or do you hand stay exactly the same as of youre playing something realy slow.cause i realy dont feel like stiff or anything.damn, its hard.i dont know what to think.how do someone practice stick grip.should i hold the stick and just do slow exercises with it and get used to the feeling of the grip or something?
jazzsnob
Silver Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
I'm suggesting that your grip is fine if you are fine with it, but the way to take it to a high level is actually choosing a system for yourself, an actual specific grip that you know works well. Right now it sounds like you've practiced a lot, but maybe haven't put a huge amount of though into why you hold the sticks like you do and whether or not there is a better way.
Oh yeah, ajgdrummers7814's idea for the first 13 sticking patterns is excellent.
I'm suggesting that your grip is fine if you are fine with it, but the way to take it to a high level is actually choosing a system for yourself, an actual specific grip that you know works well. Right now it sounds like you've practiced a lot, but maybe haven't put a huge amount of though into why you hold the sticks like you do and whether or not there is a better way.
Oh yeah, ajgdrummers7814's idea for the first 13 sticking patterns is excellent.
Deltadrummer
Platinum Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
I've been through Accents and Rebounds and it is actually a good book for practicing wrist technique or Moeller. You can utilize the rebounds, which I think was Stone's intention or you can use a pure Moeller whip stroke for the accents. The first way is the more difficult of the two. I went through the exercises and wrote in rebounds, taps and control strokes where necessary.
I've been through Accents and Rebounds and it is actually a good book for practicing wrist technique or Moeller. You can utilize the rebounds, which I think was Stone's intention or you can use a pure Moeller whip stroke for the accents. The first way is the more difficult of the two. I went through the exercises and wrote in rebounds, taps and control strokes where necessary.
PeartWeckler
Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Yeah, that is kind of what I do, not with Samba, but more of a BD-on-1 thing. I figure if I'm restricted on speed, due to my weak hand (left), then i might as well practice some coordination while I'm going through the (boring) exercises. I've also been doing a "doubletime" version of the exercises, at the end of my practice time, doing fills with my BD, and playing a swing pattern on the ride. And I've found some knew grooves out of it.
But that is not what the exercises are for, so I don't do it doubletime too much.
So, my other suggestion is to play only your weak hand parts. And start off with weak hand parts that start on count one. So for the left hand, that is exercise #2, 4, 10, 12, 15, 20, 22, etc, etc.
I'm still on page one and two! And after I started back practicing again a couple of months ago, I can agree that it will take years to get the technique and control that I want. Even though, I'm setting a goal of 1 year on technique.
Steph
Yeah, that is kind of what I do, not with Samba, but more of a BD-on-1 thing. I figure if I'm restricted on speed, due to my weak hand (left), then i might as well practice some coordination while I'm going through the (boring) exercises. I've also been doing a "doubletime" version of the exercises, at the end of my practice time, doing fills with my BD, and playing a swing pattern on the ride. And I've found some knew grooves out of it.
But that is not what the exercises are for, so I don't do it doubletime too much.
So, my other suggestion is to play only your weak hand parts. And start off with weak hand parts that start on count one. So for the left hand, that is exercise #2, 4, 10, 12, 15, 20, 22, etc, etc.
I'm still on page one and two! And after I started back practicing again a couple of months ago, I can agree that it will take years to get the technique and control that I want. Even though, I'm setting a goal of 1 year on technique.
Steph
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Hello,
I'm sorry if this has already been talked about in this thread, but there's something that i'm really not sure about in the section about "how to practise "stick control"".
It says to practise each rhythm 20 times without stopping, 'then go onto the next one', but it also says to practise each rudiment at varying tempos with and without a metronome.
So does this mean (for example) we set a metronome on a certain speed, play an exercise 20 times, increase the speed, play the same exercise 20 times again, etc.
OR, do we go through (say) the first page, doing each exercise 20 times, then speed up the metronome and go through the page, doing each exercise 20 times again, etc.
or would it be better to go through several exercises at some tempo, then then next day increase the tempo doing the same exercises. . etc.?
Cheers,
Hello,
I'm sorry if this has already been talked about in this thread, but there's something that i'm really not sure about in the section about "how to practise "stick control"".
It says to practise each rhythm 20 times without stopping, 'then go onto the next one', but it also says to practise each rudiment at varying tempos with and without a metronome.
So does this mean (for example) we set a metronome on a certain speed, play an exercise 20 times, increase the speed, play the same exercise 20 times again, etc.
OR, do we go through (say) the first page, doing each exercise 20 times, then speed up the metronome and go through the page, doing each exercise 20 times again, etc.
or would it be better to go through several exercises at some tempo, then then next day increase the tempo doing the same exercises. . etc.?
Cheers,
shuffle
Senior Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Hello Jbutl78
Mr Stone is just giving a few different ways to practice the exercises in the intro.
As you can see in the thread, there are many other ways to work them out, and the only rule seems to be that there is no rule, as long as you benefit from it.
I took a short break from the book myself, but I'm thinkin of gettin' back to it. The method I seem to get the most from is by using a metronome and doing each exercises 20-25 times, one after the other. I keep the same tempo over one session of exercises, but I like to move it, faster or slower - while remaining in a "comfort zone" - between sessions.
Hello Jbutl78
Mr Stone is just giving a few different ways to practice the exercises in the intro.
As you can see in the thread, there are many other ways to work them out, and the only rule seems to be that there is no rule, as long as you benefit from it.
I took a short break from the book myself, but I'm thinkin of gettin' back to it. The method I seem to get the most from is by using a metronome and doing each exercises 20-25 times, one after the other. I keep the same tempo over one session of exercises, but I like to move it, faster or slower - while remaining in a "comfort zone" - between sessions.
PeartWeckler
Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
I totally agree, although I haven't touched Stick Control since August. Every time I attempt an exercise (on page one), my wrists tighten up. I have, however, found beneficial practicing on real drums rather than on a practice pad, and I don't know if this has anything to do with my wrist fatigue. I do know that when I put on a marching snare and go over to the local high school after work, I immediately feel much more comfortable with my playing.
I'm still building up technique in my weak hand (traditional grip) at this point in my "comeback", so maybe Stick Control will show itself to be useful at some future point in time.
Oh.. another method I have been using to improve my weak hand is, to practice each stroke by starting in the UP position, and ending in the UP position. This is to be practiced at zero tempo, one beat at a time. So, it would be (in terms of stick position)UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, etc. After you feel the "burn", then try UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, etc, increasing the number of hits as you feel necessary to feel a workout. Always start the exercise with the stick in the UP position (UP being the stick in the vertical - ie., pointing toward the ceiling).
This is not for the match-grip, or at least I haven't found it useful and/or necessary. It is for the traditional grip, where muscles that allow the rotating of the forearm can be strengthened (use a closed grip, for the most part).
Well that's where I'm at right now
Where are YOU at? Huh??
Huhhhhhh!!!!
Steph
I totally agree, although I haven't touched Stick Control since August. Every time I attempt an exercise (on page one), my wrists tighten up. I have, however, found beneficial practicing on real drums rather than on a practice pad, and I don't know if this has anything to do with my wrist fatigue. I do know that when I put on a marching snare and go over to the local high school after work, I immediately feel much more comfortable with my playing.
I'm still building up technique in my weak hand (traditional grip) at this point in my "comeback", so maybe Stick Control will show itself to be useful at some future point in time.
Oh.. another method I have been using to improve my weak hand is, to practice each stroke by starting in the UP position, and ending in the UP position. This is to be practiced at zero tempo, one beat at a time. So, it would be (in terms of stick position)UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, etc. After you feel the "burn", then try UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, UP-DOWN-UP-DOWN-UP, HOLD, etc, increasing the number of hits as you feel necessary to feel a workout. Always start the exercise with the stick in the UP position (UP being the stick in the vertical - ie., pointing toward the ceiling).
This is not for the match-grip, or at least I haven't found it useful and/or necessary. It is for the traditional grip, where muscles that allow the rotating of the forearm can be strengthened (use a closed grip, for the most part).
Well that's where I'm at right now
Where are YOU at? Huh??
Huhhhhhh!!!!
Steph
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Hey thanks, i realised i probably should've read through the posts (so many..) before asking that. feel silly now.
But i really liked jazzsnob's post right near the start about it, a few things about it weren't really clear, but when i have time again i'll have to read through it all and sort something out for myself.
Cheers
Hey thanks, i realised i probably should've read through the posts (so many..) before asking that. feel silly now.
But i really liked jazzsnob's post right near the start about it, a few things about it weren't really clear, but when i have time again i'll have to read through it all and sort something out for myself.
Cheers
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
Guys,
I just started to use this book since many drummers have recommended it to me. I have been playing drums for like 2 years. I seriously want to master this book.
How often should I increase tempo let's say from 100 to 104 and then 106? How often? If I am talking about the 1st page, which I plan in practicing every single day of my life from now on. I plan on dedicating 2hrs daily to this book. 1 hr in the morning and 1 on nights.
What techniques should I use?
Should I use fingers or wrists only?
Should I practice this in a pillow to avoid rebounds?
Thanks a lot!
Guys,
I just started to use this book since many drummers have recommended it to me. I have been playing drums for like 2 years. I seriously want to master this book.
How often should I increase tempo let's say from 100 to 104 and then 106? How often? If I am talking about the 1st page, which I plan in practicing every single day of my life from now on. I plan on dedicating 2hrs daily to this book. 1 hr in the morning and 1 on nights.
What techniques should I use?
Should I use fingers or wrists only?
Should I practice this in a pillow to avoid rebounds?
Thanks a lot!
NUTHA JASON
Senior Administrator
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
all your questions are probably already answered in this enormous thread. in short practice slowly and be patient. 2 hours a day is a lot so be careful you don't burn out. 2 hours is fine if it means you have another 4 hours on hand to develop other areas in your drumming. if not then i would advise to spend only half an hour of quality GLS time a day and the other hour and a half on other things such as pedal technique, grooves, other rudiments and reading etc.
j
all your questions are probably already answered in this enormous thread. in short practice slowly and be patient. 2 hours a day is a lot so be careful you don't burn out. 2 hours is fine if it means you have another 4 hours on hand to develop other areas in your drumming. if not then i would advise to spend only half an hour of quality GLS time a day and the other hour and a half on other things such as pedal technique, grooves, other rudiments and reading etc.
j
shuffle
Senior Member
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
I prefer 4 beats per click.
I think you should always use the metronome with Stick Control.
I read all the thread but I was not clear in something...
when using the metronome... how many beats per click? thanks a lot!
I prefer 4 beats per click.
I think you should always use the metronome with Stick Control.
Re: STICK CONTROL (george L stone) your experiences and suggestions
I have recently purchased Steve Smith's Drum Legacy DVD which by the way is an awesome production.
Near the beginning of the DVD, he goes into hand and foot combinations and how he applied Stick Control to this as taught by Alan Dawson. Does anybody know more about Alan's different ways of interpreting Stick Control?
Anyway, he starts by using just the first page and say if your playing the first exercise of eighth notes of RLRLRLRL, you substitute the left hand note for a foot. Then vice-versa. He then demonstrates playing different stickings- say RR LL RR LL RR LL and playing that on the snare while filling in with the foot between each note in the hand.
Any tempo suggestions for starters and targets for this method? Obviously it would be good to start at a slow tempo to develop the control necessary at the faster tempos.
Many thanks
Tim
I have recently purchased Steve Smith's Drum Legacy DVD which by the way is an awesome production.
Near the beginning of the DVD, he goes into hand and foot combinations and how he applied Stick Control to this as taught by Alan Dawson. Does anybody know more about Alan's different ways of interpreting Stick Control?
Anyway, he starts by using just the first page and say if your playing the first exercise of eighth notes of RLRLRLRL, you substitute the left hand note for a foot. Then vice-versa. He then demonstrates playing different stickings- say RR LL RR LL RR LL and playing that on the snare while filling in with the foot between each note in the hand.
Any tempo suggestions for starters and targets for this method? Obviously it would be good to start at a slow tempo to develop the control necessary at the faster tempos.
Many thanks
Tim