DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > Drummers

Drummers Topic Name = Drummer's Name. Use this forum to discuss the drummers profiled on DrummerWorld

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #961  
Old 02-10-2015, 05:23 PM
MikeM's Avatar
MikeM MikeM is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,422
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeelDrummer View Post
People seem to be on both sides of the fence with the fact that he plays everything note for note.

The way I see it, a song is constantly evolving. What you lay down in the studio is the song in its infancy and what you come out with after touring it (many times) is the evolution of the song.

When you play everything note for note, show after show, tour after tour, year after year... you are ignoring an important part of a live performance and that particular song.

Its not Brittney Spears "Oops I did it again" meant to be played as a track exactly the same every time. Its a musical composition that was created with pride and should be continued to be worked on and improved each time you play it.

I am completely not into a band that plays like a cd. To me, its lazy. You are too lazy to creatively expand to what you originally laid down.

And people that say it is too hard to improvise on Rush stuff... Thats just not true. Peart's stuff does not evolve. It is what it is and thats all it will ever be.
Artists have been waxing philosophical on this for ages: when does a painter know when to stop, put the brush down, and call it good? The sooner you can do that, the sooner you can move on to the next thing. How good is good enough?

True, music isn't static like a painting, but from a compositional pov, it's the same thing. NP was known for his compositions and obviously enjoyed that. And why not? Everyone else already varies the drum parts from performance to performance, so front-loading the creative effort and casting it in stone seems like a pretty good idea, actually. If nothing else, it was novel.

You could also turn around and say that anyone not taking the time to dial it in and nail it down before hitting the record button is just lazy. I wouldn't make that argument personally, but I will admit that what I lay down in the studio usually is what I do from then on out, at least for the bits that I felt worked particularly well.

Also, instead of pointing out everything he is not (or anyone for that matter), acknowledge what he is, or has brought to the table, and allow yourself to either be impressed by that, or not.

I was never impressed with Buddy's funk or Neil's jazz, but hats off to them for stepping outside of their comfort zones. Their respective "shortcomings" in those areas does absolutely nothing to minimize or negate what they were great at.
__________________
My kit: It's not just good, it's good enough. Recent band.
Reply With Quote
  #962  
Old 02-10-2015, 05:56 PM
Hewitt2's Avatar
Hewitt2 Hewitt2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Deep in the Groove
Posts: 315
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeelDrummer View Post
People seem to be on both sides of the fence with the fact that he plays everything note for note.

The way I see it, a song is constantly evolving. What you lay down in the studio is the song in its infancy and what you come out with after touring it (many times) is the evolution of the song.

When you play everything note for note, show after show, tour after tour, year after year... you are ignoring an important part of a live performance and that particular song.

Its not Brittney Spears "Oops I did it again" meant to be played as a track exactly the same every time. Its a musical composition that was created with pride and should be continued to be worked on and improved each time you play it.

I am completely not into a band that plays like a cd. To me, its lazy. You are too lazy to creatively expand to what you originally laid down.

And people that say it is too hard to improvise on Rush stuff... Thats just not true. Peart's stuff does not evolve. It is what it is and thats all it will ever be.
But part of the challenge is that many of Peart's parts are foundational to the songs themselves. Got to a concert and look into the crowd and you will see people air drumming note-to-note (or as best they can) to many of the songs.

If Peart started to improvise more, I'm not sure how the crowd would react. Rightly or wrongly, many would feel like Peart was messing with their memories and the authenticity of the recordings.
Reply With Quote
  #963  
Old 02-10-2015, 06:00 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
2.) He's big. Let's face it... many of us once thought NP was "the very best" before we discovered Buddy, Vinnie, Gadd, Weckl, Cobham, etc. He is pretty obviously behind those folks and many more. It doesn't have to annoy everyone, but I sometimes get a bit irked when guys like him, Tre Cool, Travis Barker, etc. are being over-recognized like that. He seems to have absorbed it a bit as well, as you can see in the way he talks about music and playing. Eh.
Why be irked in people's success, or for being recognized by masses? It seems an unjust bias to lay on clearly talented people. The irony is of course Neil Peart is too shy and modest a fellow to have wanted or at least invited any of the world's attention to his drumming.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #964  
Old 02-10-2015, 08:45 PM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,305
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
2.) He's big. Let's face it... many of us once thought NP was "the very best" before we discovered Buddy, Vinnie, Gadd, Weckl, Cobham, etc. He is pretty obviously behind those folks and many more.
Yes and no.

In pure drumming terms, perhaps.

But Neil has something those guys don't have: Being an equal partner and song writer in a successful band.

Vinnie, Gadd, Weckl, among others, make most of their living as a drummer for hire, playing other people's music, getting told what to do, and when to do it.

Outside of other drummers, not a whole lot of people know who those guys are.

We have drummers like Ringo and Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer and others who are well known for being in a well known bands, and I'm not knocking their playing, because they all have their thing. Although none of them are particularly known for their song writing (and yes, I know Ringo has written some songs).

And then there are the guys Vinnie Gadd, Weckl who are well known among drummers for their drumming acrobatics.

Not many guys have a foot in both camps.

No, he may not sell any where near the records Joey Krammer has, and he may not have the chops Vinnie has, but you'd be hard pressed to name anyone who's accomplished everything Neil has.
Reply With Quote
  #965  
Old 02-10-2015, 10:53 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Buddy couldn't (or didn't) play country, metal, raggae, or countless other styles either. Not sure what your point is? Are you saying he was less of a drummer because as a jazz musician he didn't play bop?

By your logic, would Louis Armstrong be less of a musician or trumpet player because he similarly avoided bop music?

In any event, while Buddy truly made a name for himself in the big band setting, there are quite a few recordings of him playing with brushes and in a smaller ensemble setting where he plays quite tastefully. While not "bop," he is certainly more multi-faceted than perhaps you give him credit for.
I think the point here is that bagging on Peart because he isn't great at all styles is unfair considering so many of the greats had pretty big holes in their vocabulary as well
Reply With Quote
  #966  
Old 02-10-2015, 11:01 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeelDrummer View Post
People seem to be on both sides of the fence with the fact that he plays everything note for note.

The way I see it, a song is constantly evolving. What you lay down in the studio is the song in its infancy and what you come out with after touring it (many times) is the evolution of the song.

When you play everything note for note, show after show, tour after tour, year after year... you are ignoring an important part of a live performance and that particular song.

Its not Brittney Spears "Oops I did it again" meant to be played as a track exactly the same every time. Its a musical composition that was created with pride and should be continued to be worked on and improved each time you play it.

I am completely not into a band that plays like a cd. To me, its lazy. You are too lazy to creatively expand to what you originally laid down.

And people that say it is too hard to improvise on Rush stuff... Thats just not true. Peart's stuff does not evolve. It is what it is and thats all it will ever be.
If we accept premise that Peart never changes anything than you might have an argument. I think the premise is flawed. He does alter parts. They are not drastic and he does them so solidly most people probably don't even realize it is different. Changing things for the sake of changing them doesn't make you musical.
Reply With Quote
  #967  
Old 02-11-2015, 01:09 AM
Hewitt2's Avatar
Hewitt2 Hewitt2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Deep in the Groove
Posts: 315
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I think the point here is that bagging on Peart because he isn't great at all styles is unfair considering so many of the greats had pretty big holes in their vocabulary as well
It's more of critiquing Peart because he can't swing, which is not unique to any one style and is in fact the hallmark of many a good drummer.
Reply With Quote
  #968  
Old 02-11-2015, 04:13 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
It's more of critiquing Peart because he can't swing, which is not unique to any one style and is in fact the hallmark of many a good drummer.
I am going to disagree with that. "Swing" does not define, and is not the only measure of skill behind a drum kit.

Last edited by AudioWonderland; 02-11-2015 at 05:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #969  
Old 02-11-2015, 05:21 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
It's more of critiquing Peart because he can't swing, which is not unique to any one style and is in fact the hallmark of many a good drummer.
If we invert your sentence it basically says Neil Peart is not a good drummer, because "he can't swing". The latter statement itself a very subjective assessment or 'fact'.

These threads really devolve to some outlandish assessments of people.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #970  
Old 02-11-2015, 07:12 PM
TheHeelDrummer TheHeelDrummer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 222
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
Artists have been waxing philosophical on this for ages: when does a painter know when to stop, put the brush down, and call it good? The sooner you can do that, the sooner you can move on to the next thing. How good is good enough?

True, music isn't static like a painting, but from a compositional pov, it's the same thing. NP was known for his compositions and obviously enjoyed that. And why not? Everyone else already varies the drum parts from performance to performance, so front-loading the creative effort and casting it in stone seems like a pretty good idea, actually. If nothing else, it was novel.

You could also turn around and say that anyone not taking the time to dial it in and nail it down before hitting the record button is just lazy. I wouldn't make that argument personally, but I will admit that what I lay down in the studio usually is what I do from then on out, at least for the bits that I felt worked particularly well.

Also, instead of pointing out everything he is not (or anyone for that matter), acknowledge what he is, or has brought to the table, and allow yourself to either be impressed by that, or not.

I was never impressed with Buddy's funk or Neil's jazz, but hats off to them for stepping outside of their comfort zones. Their respective "shortcomings" in those areas does absolutely nothing to minimize or negate what they were great at.
Oh, I still appreciate NP for what he is and what he's contributed. This was simply a point on one particular issue.

Often songs are written almost on the fly. People get a song they never saw coming in the studio and before you know it, its laid down. You can't expect that to be the end all be all of the song. I understand Rush definitely did not go this path. It still doesn't mean that twenty years later the song, in my mind, should be at the exact same point as it was when it was written. I also understand a signature song that's crucial to a song.

Hewitt2, 95% of the people air drumming in the crowd don't have much comprehension of what they are air drumming and its very possible that unless it was a signature fill that they would not have any idea of differences.

I saw Rush years back and I was bummed out by what I heard. I would have loved to see them cut loose some, to give me something I haven't heard before, a new take on something old without bastardizing it. It's preference I guess. A bass player I played with saw the Eagles and was so thrilled that they stuck note for note to the originals. Personally, that wouldn't have been something I was thrilled by. I enjoy improvisation and when bands can masterfully alter things just enough that I feel like I heard something I haven't heard a million times before.
Reply With Quote
  #971  
Old 02-11-2015, 07:21 PM
Hewitt2's Avatar
Hewitt2 Hewitt2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Deep in the Groove
Posts: 315
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
If we invert your sentence it basically says Neil Peart is not a good drummer, because "he can't swing". The latter statement itself a very subjective assessment or 'fact'.

These threads really devolve to some outlandish assessments of people.
Believe it or not I am a big Rush and Neil Peart fan and have been a few of their concerts and been lucky to meet him. He was very gracious and down to earth.

My point was that he can't swing. For that reason I will never consider him one of the greats. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree but dismissing this as an outlandish assessment based on a subjective point of view is kind of missing the point. There are very few established "facts" in art, music included, as we all have personal opinions and who can play and who can't.
Reply With Quote
  #972  
Old 02-11-2015, 07:36 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Believe it or not I am a big Rush and Neil Peart fan and have been a few of their concerts and been lucky to meet him. He was very gracious and down to earth.

My point was that he can't swing. For that reason I will never consider him one of the greats. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree but dismissing this as an outlandish assessment based on a subjective point of view is kind of missing the point. There are very few established "facts" in art, music included, as we all have personal opinions and who can play and who can't.
And Buddy couldn't play YYZ if his life depended on it. Is Philly Joe or Elvin Jones going to touch La Villa Strangiato?? That would be no. Frankly I doubt if the Gadd/Weckl/Robinsons of the world could really do it. They may play if the notes but there is more to it than that. Just like Neil plays the notes with Buddy's big band and its not quite there, they would have the same issue. Something not quite right
Reply With Quote
  #973  
Old 02-11-2015, 08:31 PM
JosephDAqui's Avatar
JosephDAqui JosephDAqui is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Bridgewater, NJ
Posts: 601
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
And Buddy couldn't play YYZ if his life depended on it. Is Philly Joe or Elvin Jones going to touch La Villa Strangiato?? That would be no. Frankly I doubt if the Gadd/Weckl/Robinsons of the world could really do it. They may play if the notes but there is more to it than that. Just like Neil plays the notes with Buddy's big band and its not quite there, they would have the same issue. Something not quite right
Well put man! Excellent point!

Each of the greats has a concentrated strength or mastery and we recognize them for it, so no one should really compare them based on one or many parameters. Going back to some basic ethics: is this really a competition or an art form? Is there anyone among us who is qualified to cast someone down who has obviously accomplished a lot? I'm thinking no, but the unfortunate thing I've found in this forum is that there are some people (not all) who are legends in their own minds - the "greats" mentioned in this thread don't behave that way (it was Weckl who pointed out that drumming is not a sport, but an art form).
__________________
http://piercedtheband.com/
Music/Tech Site
Styles: Metal / Hard Rock / Prog
Reply With Quote
  #974  
Old 02-11-2015, 08:50 PM
pgm554's Avatar
pgm554 pgm554 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 1,432
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeelDrummer View Post
Oh, I still appreciate NP for what he is and what he's contributed. This was simply a point on one particular issue.

Often songs are written almost on the fly. People get a song they never saw coming in the studio and before you know it, its laid down. You can't expect that to be the end all be all of the song. I understand Rush definitely did not go this path. It still doesn't mean that twenty years later the song, in my mind, should be at the exact same point as it was when it was written. I also understand a signature song that's crucial to a song.

Hewitt2, 95% of the people air drumming in the crowd don't have much comprehension of what they are air drumming and its very possible that unless it was a signature fill that they would not have any idea of differences.

I saw Rush years back and I was bummed out by what I heard. I would have loved to see them cut loose some, to give me something I haven't heard before, a new take on something old without bastardizing it. It's preference I guess. A bass player I played with saw the Eagles and was so thrilled that they stuck note for note to the originals. Personally, that wouldn't have been something I was thrilled by. I enjoy improvisation and when bands can masterfully alter things just enough that I feel like I heard something I haven't heard a million times before.

They were interviewing the bass player from REO and he said before the power ballad hits ,they were more like the Allman Brothers with extended jams and a two hour show.

Once you hit the big time,it is note for note give the audience what they came to see in 40 minutes.
__________________
Pearl MCX Gretsch Renown and many many Fibes snares.
Reply With Quote
  #975  
Old 02-11-2015, 08:55 PM
pgm554's Avatar
pgm554 pgm554 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 1,432
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
And Buddy couldn't play YYZ if his life depended on it. Is Philly Joe or Elvin Jones going to touch La Villa Strangiato?? That would be no. Frankly I doubt if the Gadd/Weckl/Robinsons of the world could really do it. They may play if the notes but there is more to it than that. Just like Neil plays the notes with Buddy's big band and its not quite there, they would have the same issue. Something not quite right

I once made that comment to Colaiuta about Gadd not being able to play metal drums and he pretty much said why couldn't he?

If you're a good drummer,there should be no reason why you can't.
__________________
Pearl MCX Gretsch Renown and many many Fibes snares.
Reply With Quote
  #976  
Old 02-11-2015, 09:05 PM
pgm554's Avatar
pgm554 pgm554 is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 1,432
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Believe it or not I am a big Rush and Neil Peart fan and have been a few of their concerts and been lucky to meet him. He was very gracious and down to earth.

My point was that he can't swing. For that reason I will never consider him one of the greats. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree but dismissing this as an outlandish assessment based on a subjective point of view is kind of missing the point. There are very few established "facts" in art, music included, as we all have personal opinions and who can play and who can't.

Neil,outside of the Rush vehicle ,is a pretty mediocre drummer.
I heard him on Jeff Berlins Vox Humana and was thoroughly unimpressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCD0jxWK5rQ
__________________
Pearl MCX Gretsch Renown and many many Fibes snares.
Reply With Quote
  #977  
Old 02-11-2015, 09:47 PM
drummer-russ's Avatar
drummer-russ drummer-russ is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: St. Peters Mo
Posts: 1,174
Default Re: Neil Peart

I have been reading this thread off and on for a while. I seriously do not get the critique of drummers that are at the top of the music world such that among drummers we can identify them with one name.

It seems to me that these drummers found themselves, either by choice or circumstance, to achieve success in one genre or style. They dedicate their musical lives to that style and are criticized by others notably less successful. I don't care if Buddy couldn't lay down the funk. It does not diminish my opinion of his skills. To me it means he never took the time or had the situation that dictated or offered the right opportunity for him to become good at funk, or he just didn't like it. Doesn't matter.

We all need to recognize taste and genre preferences can taint our view of talent. That is not how I try to look at things.

And then some of you are putting some strange criteria in to evaluate them. The idea of whether any drummer changes his parts or plays them the same is not a measure of talent.

In my opinion based on skills, creativity, and execution NP is one of the best in my lifetime. I would refuse to offer who I think is the best, it is just not a discussion I see having value.

Ringo and Neil P are about as far apart in playing style as I can think of yet both provided us with drum parts that are solid technically, appealing within the music, and have garnered respect among fellow drummers, at least those not caught up in genre comparisons.
__________________
Playing live in front of appreciative audience is the 2nd best thing in the world!
Reply With Quote
  #978  
Old 02-12-2015, 02:27 AM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Believe it or not I am a big Rush and Neil Peart fan and have been a few of their concerts and been lucky to meet him. He was very gracious and down to earth.

My point was that he can't swing. For that reason I will never consider him one of the greats. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree but dismissing this as an outlandish assessment based on a subjective point of view is kind of missing the point. There are very few established "facts" in art, music included, as we all have personal opinions and who can play and who can't.
Sorry if I offended, yes of course its an opinion.
In my mind, its hard to believe a fan would have inserted 'any good drummer' in what you stated.
Sure 'the greats' differ from 'the goods'. My point is he was still worthy of being called 'good'.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #979  
Old 02-12-2015, 06:51 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 149
Default Re: Neil Peart

I didn't mean to say I disrespected Buddy or Neil or anyone else. When I mentioned being put off by the fact that certain drummers are famous, it's generally that I don't particularly appreciate their personalities and don't like seeing talent being overblown; I still respect what they CAN do.

I also respect Buddy Rich as much as anyone, but I'll stand by what I said about him not being versatile. His big band playing is amazing. The big band he led was incredible. His bop playing is pretty good and his funk is pretty mediocre.

For all the chops and showmanship, I'm not sure if Buddy really should be the undisputed "greatest drummer ever." Honestly, I think though Buddy was a "greater" drummer, Louie Bellson was a BETTER drummer. I think he was more musical, tasteful, versatile, and had just as impressive chops. I have nothing against the GOOD things that people like Travis Barker do, but it still DOES bug me that punks like that are world-famous public figures and most people outside drumming communities haven't ever heard of Bellson.

Versatility is, in my opinion, a huge asset in a drummer. The only drummer that I'd consider really impressive in every style is Vinnie Colaiuta, but guys like Weckl, Gadd, J.R. Robinson, Simon Phillips, etc. have much wider ranges than many others (Also, DrumEatDrum, you mentioned those guys can't write, though Weckl has written or co-written almost everything on his bands' records, and Gadd has done a fair bit as well).

So back to Neil. We've established that he has no artistic range, which we have to settle on. That doesn't mean we can't respect his playing with Rush. The songs they have recorded are very interesting and his playing is great on them. But I will say, I also wish he would let the art breathe a little bit, and stop playing every single thing note-for-note. It seems like there are plenty of people with the opposite opinion, I just personally think it makes the creative entity of the music seem kind of dead.
Reply With Quote
  #980  
Old 02-12-2015, 07:32 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,305
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
(Also, DrumEatDrum, you mentioned those guys can't write, though Weckl has written or co-written almost everything on his bands' records, and Gadd has done a fair bit as well).
Actually, that's not what I said. I know those guys write (although one could say it's still not really what they're known for).


I said Ringo and Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer are in popular bands, but they don't write most/any of the songs that has made their respective bands top selling acts.

Sure, Ringo's written a few things, and had some success as a writer, but the Beatles were mostly known for the writings of John and Paul (and occasionally George). Kramer has like 10 co-writing credits, but none of them the big Aerosmith songs.

Neil, only the other hand, does contribute writing to most of the songs that has made Rush a stadium/multi-platinum selling band. And it's an aspect of his career he is known for.
Reply With Quote
  #981  
Old 02-12-2015, 10:28 PM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 149
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Neil, only the other hand, does contribute writing to most of the songs that has made Rush a stadium/multi-platinum selling band. And it's an aspect of his career he is known for.
I respect that ability he has, and his role as the lyricist for Rush. His potential shortcomings shouldn't take anything away from that.
Reply With Quote
  #982  
Old 02-12-2015, 11:00 PM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Neil Peart

OK. So if we all can respect these people for being good at what they do, what's the point of this discussion?

I think all of us (including me) know what our limitations would be and would steer ourselves into the good light of what we do do good. These huge artists have done that and it has paid off. More power to people who can find that niche and go for it. That's what its all about right? I'm not buying a ticket to see Rush improvise - I want what I came to hear. The Eagles are the best example of this as well - they do not try from what their fans want. Same with Kiss, and the Rolling Stones....heck, I love Stevie Ray Vaughn, but I never wanted to hear him play funk or big band jazz. So I don't hold to the "you're not complete unless you can do it all" idea - because basically nobody really is. I'm sure even people like J.R. Robinson know this, although there is a certain amount of bravado to the studio session cats that they project that they can do everything. But even if that were true, then that means they'd be out doing everything. And they don't do that.
Reply With Quote
  #983  
Old 02-12-2015, 11:59 PM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 149
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Bo Eder View Post
...that they project that they can do everything. But even if that were true, then that means they'd be out doing everything. And they don't do that.
I don't know about that. Like I said, Vinnie is the closest to being able to do every single thing, and he's done tons of touring, along with a massive amount of studio credits. He's toured with Sting, Jeff Beck, Herbie Hancock, and Megadeth, to name a few.

I'm not saying Gadd, Robinson, Weckl, etc. can do EVERYTHING. They just have good artistic ranges, and I personally like that, and the fact that they DON'T do the same old thing in concert.
Reply With Quote
  #984  
Old 02-13-2015, 12:25 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,305
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
I don't know about that. Like I said, Vinnie is the closest to being able to do every single thing, and he's done tons of touring, along with a massive amount of studio credits. He's toured with Sting, Jeff Beck, Herbie Hancock, and Megadeth, to name a few.

I'm not saying Gadd, Robinson, Weckl, etc. can do EVERYTHING. They just have good artistic ranges, and I personally like that, and the fact that they DON'T do the same old thing in concert.
Vinnie is an outlier though. If we compare everyone to Vinnie, then we'd have to conclude most everyone else sucks, because very few come close to his mix of versatility and chops. I don't think Weckl can play rock to save his life, but I'd still gladly cut off my little toe with a rusty knife if I could have 1/2 his technique.

I don't get why people have to target ceertain other drummers so much. Buddy didn't play like George Kollias, George Kollias doesn't play like Papa Jo Jones, and Papa Jo Jones didn't play like Tommy Aldridge. And so what? They're all good at what they do/did and all made relevant contributions to the drumming community.

No one goes around slamming all these other drummers for not being everything to every one, but for whatever reason, when it comes to Neil and Ringo, people feel justified to slam them over and over and over again for not being as something as someone else. It makes no sense.
Reply With Quote
  #985  
Old 02-13-2015, 01:30 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 149
Default Re: Neil Peart

Once again, I was not trying to cast Neil's lack of versatility in a negative light. As I said, he is great in the prog context in which he plays, and we SHOULD appreciate him for that. All I meant is that he shouldn't be constantly thought of as the world's greatest drummer, even if there were such a thing. If he was remotely capable of playing swing, in my opinion, that would make him a better drummer. That's why I used the term "shortcoming." Because you guys seem to take everything as "slamming" on Neil, let me say it loud and clear:

Neil Peart is a great Prog drummer.

And that's fine.

P.S. -- I think Weckl's rock stuff with Oz Noy is pretty cool, if you'd consider it rock (funk maybe?).
Reply With Quote
  #986  
Old 02-13-2015, 02:30 AM
GetAgrippa's Avatar
GetAgrippa GetAgrippa is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: U.S.
Posts: 2,908
Default Re: Neil Peart

Neil Peart is an excellent rock drummer (I wouldn't criticize that), but watching him play with the Buddy Rich band he looked like a duck out of water playing big band and jazz.
Reply With Quote
  #987  
Old 02-13-2015, 03:06 AM
Hewitt2's Avatar
Hewitt2 Hewitt2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Deep in the Groove
Posts: 315
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
I'm not a Neil fan at all .... I barely dig him in Rush beyond listening to Moving Pictures and 2112 when I was 13 years old

but that is just my personal taste and opinion

I just have a hard time with someone no one has ever heard of saying a world renowned player with 40+ million albums sold has "shortcomings" thats all
Ok. This looks like the "appeal to wealth" fallacy and the "sold xxx many records (the masses must be right)" argument...

Like the Simpsons said, "50 million smokers can't be wrong."

I suppose that artists who haven't had the benefit or luck of being in the right place at the right time are excluded?
Reply With Quote
  #988  
Old 02-13-2015, 03:21 AM
Matt Bo Eder
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Ok. This looks like the "appeal to wealth" fallacy and the "sold xxx many records (the masses must be right)" argument...

Like the Simpsons said, "50 million smokers can't be wrong."

I suppose that artists who haven't had the benefit or luck of being in the right place at the right time are excluded?
Not that I think this is what's being said, but why not? Artists who nobody knows or who've had no claim to fame, does anyone listen to them? No.

I'm just calling a spade a spade. If you're a nobody, nobody will listen to you. And if you stand on a street corner screaming "I'm an artist dammit and my opinion counts!" you get an even colder shoulder.

Sometimes you just have to STFU and do your time. Like we all do.
Reply With Quote
  #989  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:02 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,305
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Ok. This looks like the "appeal to wealth" fallacy and the "sold xxx many records (the masses must be right)" argument...

Like the Simpsons said, "50 million smokers can't be wrong."

I suppose that artists who haven't had the benefit or luck of being in the right place at the right time are excluded?
I disagree.

Joey Krammer has appeared on 100 million albums sales.
Charlie Watts has appeared on 250+ million album sales.

Yet there aren't 100's of posts slamming their playing.
Reply With Quote
  #990  
Old 02-13-2015, 06:23 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 149
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I disagree.

Joey Krammer has appeared on 100 million albums sales.
Charlie Watts has appeared on 250+ million album sales.

Yet there aren't 100's of posts slamming their playing.
That's because it goes further than that with Neil. I think lots of us have noticed that Neil is often widely touted as the "Greatest Drummer Ever." Moreover, he seems to be investing in that hype himself. I've seen a lot in this discussion saying Neil is humble and all about the music, but I've noticed otherwise. Just watch "Taking Center Stage" (his biographical documentary), or any instructional or promotional stuff you can find floating around the internet, and tell me he's really that humble. He comes off as pretentious and conceited to me.

Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer, and Ringo are, respectively, the drummers for the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, and the Beatles. That's what they are known for, and in terms of well-known artistic output, that's all they'll ever be. And that's great, because they've fit their roles very naturally. Each one was there to help his band feel comfortable playing groundbreaking music over his steady pulse.

Peart doesn't do that at all. He has a massive, custom made, intricately painted, hybrid-electronic, bazillion-piece drum set, on which he plays solos that were written by hand months prior to the show and rehearsed, like some kind of recital piece. If you watch "Taking Center Stage," he'll lecture you for hours on how to play certain songs. Then, he'll gush about how meeting Freddie Gruber made him a great jazz player, and how he likes to hold his sticks with traditional grip for "the jazz section" of his 10-minute solos (this is all true). And just by being quiet and awkward, this guy has convinced most of the world that he's a meek little professor.

When you listen to Rush or watch live recordings, you'll notice that though Neil, Lifeson and Lee play amazingly together, there isn't a deep sense of camaraderie or connection between the three. This is understandable, given the fact that the band's entire purpose when playing live is to be as robotically precise as possible. They merely run note-for-note through the songs they wrote together, long before the show, through long, deep, drawn-out thought. There is no human element because they do nothing in the moment. Therefore, each member of the band is ultimately concerned about their part--NOT what they're a part OF. Like I said, that seems to take away from what Prog is all about, and is, of course, ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE when applied to Jazz-- part of the reason Neil can't swing.

I like listening to Rush, and I like listening to Peart's drumming on their songs. It all sounds good. What I object to is much of the IDEA of Peart, the application of his talent, and his attitude. Before you insist that I'm "slamming" him, a reminder that he has great recorded work out there, and is clearly a talented rock drummer. But the greatest ever? Not close.
Reply With Quote
  #991  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:28 PM
drummer-russ's Avatar
drummer-russ drummer-russ is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: St. Peters Mo
Posts: 1,174
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
That's because it goes further than that with Neil. I think lots of us have noticed that Neil is often widely touted as the "Greatest Drummer Ever." Moreover, he seems to be investing in that hype himself. I've seen a lot in this discussion saying Neil is humble and all about the music, but I've noticed otherwise. Just watch "Taking Center Stage" (his biographical documentary), or any instructional or promotional stuff you can find floating around the internet, and tell me he's really that humble. He comes off as pretentious and conceited to me.

Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer, and Ringo are, respectively, the drummers for the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, and the Beatles. That's what they are known for, and in terms of well-known artistic output, that's all they'll ever be. And that's great, because they've fit their roles very naturally. Each one was there to help his band feel comfortable playing groundbreaking music over his steady pulse.

Peart doesn't do that at all. He has a massive, custom made, intricately painted, hybrid-electronic, bazillion-piece drum set, on which he plays solos that were written by hand months prior to the show and rehearsed, like some kind of recital piece. If you watch "Taking Center Stage," he'll lecture you for hours on how to play certain songs. Then, he'll gush about how meeting Freddie Gruber made him a great jazz player, and how he likes to hold his sticks with traditional grip for "the jazz section" of his 10-minute solos (this is all true). And just by being quiet and awkward, this guy has convinced most of the world that he's a meek little professor.

When you listen to Rush or watch live recordings, you'll notice that though Neil, Lifeson and Lee play amazingly together, there isn't a deep sense of camaraderie or connection between the three. This is understandable, given the fact that the band's entire purpose when playing live is to be as robotically precise as possible. They merely run note-for-note through the songs they wrote together, long before the show, through long, deep, drawn-out thought. There is no human element because they do nothing in the moment. Therefore, each member of the band is ultimately concerned about their part--NOT what they're a part OF. Like I said, that seems to take away from what Prog is all about, and is, of course, ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE when applied to Jazz-- part of the reason Neil can't swing.

I like listening to Rush, and I like listening to Peart's drumming on their songs. It all sounds good. What I object to is much of the IDEA of Peart, the application of his talent, and his attitude. Before you insist that I'm "slamming" him, a reminder that he has great recorded work out there, and is clearly a talented rock drummer. But the greatest ever? Not close.
I think you might be complaining about non drummers proclaiming him the very best drummer. I did not hear that in here. Among the best is all I am ever willing to say about any drummer. It is simply too subjective to state who is the best. Music genre's bands they play in etc, have a huge impact on what these guys play.

I really don't get the lack of camaraderie you mention. I see lots of videos of them clowning around. Just saw one a few weeks ago where Alex acted bored waiting for a section NP plays bells, then when NP finished he sticks his tongue out at Alex. How many bands would simply go on hiatus for years and wait until one mate is ready to restart as a band? No questions asked? At any rate you are entitled to your opinion.
__________________
Playing live in front of appreciative audience is the 2nd best thing in the world!
Reply With Quote
  #992  
Old 02-13-2015, 04:42 PM
8Mile's Avatar
8Mile 8Mile is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 3,870
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
That's because it goes further than that with Neil. I think lots of us have noticed that Neil is often widely touted as the "Greatest Drummer Ever." Moreover, he seems to be investing in that hype himself. I've seen a lot in this discussion saying Neil is humble and all about the music, but I've noticed otherwise. Just watch "Taking Center Stage" (his biographical documentary), or any instructional or promotional stuff you can find floating around the internet, and tell me he's really that humble. He comes off as pretentious and conceited to me.

Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer, and Ringo are, respectively, the drummers for the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, and the Beatles. That's what they are known for, and in terms of well-known artistic output, that's all they'll ever be. And that's great, because they've fit their roles very naturally. Each one was there to help his band feel comfortable playing groundbreaking music over his steady pulse.

Peart doesn't do that at all. He has a massive, custom made, intricately painted, hybrid-electronic, bazillion-piece drum set, on which he plays solos that were written by hand months prior to the show and rehearsed, like some kind of recital piece. If you watch "Taking Center Stage," he'll lecture you for hours on how to play certain songs. Then, he'll gush about how meeting Freddie Gruber made him a great jazz player, and how he likes to hold his sticks with traditional grip for "the jazz section" of his 10-minute solos (this is all true). And just by being quiet and awkward, this guy has convinced most of the world that he's a meek little professor.

When you listen to Rush or watch live recordings, you'll notice that though Neil, Lifeson and Lee play amazingly together, there isn't a deep sense of camaraderie or connection between the three. This is understandable, given the fact that the band's entire purpose when playing live is to be as robotically precise as possible. They merely run note-for-note through the songs they wrote together, long before the show, through long, deep, drawn-out thought. There is no human element because they do nothing in the moment. Therefore, each member of the band is ultimately concerned about their part--NOT what they're a part OF. Like I said, that seems to take away from what Prog is all about, and is, of course, ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE when applied to Jazz-- part of the reason Neil can't swing.

I like listening to Rush, and I like listening to Peart's drumming on their songs. It all sounds good. What I object to is much of the IDEA of Peart, the application of his talent, and his attitude. Before you insist that I'm "slamming" him, a reminder that he has great recorded work out there, and is clearly a talented rock drummer. But the greatest ever? Not close.
My take on Neil is almost 180 from yours. Have you seen Beyond The Lighted Stage, the documentary about Rush? It may give you a different perspective.

I was a huge Neil fan as a young drummer. My tastes have changed, but he'll always hold a special place for me. I've got tickets to their June Detroit show already.
Reply With Quote
  #993  
Old 02-13-2015, 07:35 PM
The SunDog
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I disagree.

Joey Krammer has appeared on 100 million albums sales.
Charlie Watts has appeared on 250+ million album sales.

Yet there aren't 100's of posts slamming their playing.
You need to check your facts. Records and albums are two different categories. The Stones and Aerosmith have not sold more albums than the Beatles.
Reply With Quote
  #994  
Old 02-13-2015, 07:45 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
You need to check your facts. Records and albums are two different categories. The Stones and Aerosmith have not sold more albums than the Beatles.
Quit nit picking. The point is well made and the substantial number of records sold that they were involved in is more than enough to support it

Last edited by AudioWonderland; 02-13-2015 at 11:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #995  
Old 02-13-2015, 10:26 PM
Brian Brian is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,392
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post

Yet there aren't 100's of posts slamming their playing.
That is an awfully touchy definition of "slamming".

Most people are just giving their opinion based upon analysis of his playing and approach.

In other words, saying "water is wet" is not slamming the water for being wet...
Reply With Quote
  #996  
Old 02-13-2015, 10:32 PM
Hewitt2's Avatar
Hewitt2 Hewitt2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Deep in the Groove
Posts: 315
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
That is an awfully touchy definition of "slamming".

Most people are just giving their opinion based upon analysis of his playing and approach.

In other words, saying "water is wet" is not slamming the water for being wet...
Yup, and even among those who have not been universally positive (myself included), many have made sure to acknowledge his various strengths.
Reply With Quote
  #997  
Old 02-13-2015, 10:49 PM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 149
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummer-russ View Post
I think you might be complaining about non drummers proclaiming him the very best drummer.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drummer-russ View Post
I really don't get the lack of camaraderie you mention. I see lots of videos of them clowning around.
I didn't mean in general as friends or dedicated bandmates, I just meant musically, there's no need for that beautiful, conversational musical element when everything is precisely orchestrated. I personally miss that specifically because I come from a jazz background, in which on-the-spot communication is a crucial part of the art.
__________________
It's not about your part... It's about what you're a part of.
Reply With Quote
  #998  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:13 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
That is an awfully touchy definition of "slamming".

Most people are just giving their opinion based upon analysis of his playing and approach.

In other words, saying "water is wet" is not slamming the water for being wet...
I seriously doubt much analysis of anything was done...
Reply With Quote
  #999  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:22 PM
opentune's Avatar
opentune opentune is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post

I suppose that artists who haven't had the benefit or luck of being in the right place at the right time are excluded?
Well they kind of are....from discussion.
Nobody is talking about Jimmy Witherspoon, the great jazz drummer down at the corner bar, who can play right up there with Max or Buddy. Why? Because Jimmy is on no well-known selling jazz records. He is known to nobody on this site, and doesn't have his own thread either. It doesn't make him any less, or more, a person or drummer.
__________________
Louis
Reply With Quote
  #1000  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:23 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 577
Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt2 View Post
Yup, and even among those who have not been universally positive (myself included), many have made sure to acknowledge his various strengths.
I think the point here is that Peart gets substantially more scrutiny of his playing than the more popular drumming legends, not whether begrudging credit is given for this or that. John Bonham outside of Led Zeppelin would be a very different thing to see. The difference is he never did that. Peart had the balls to go do a style of music that he had little experience with and is the polar opposite of his strengths. What other name drummer has gone that far outside their comfort zone, particularly now that we have the internet where everything you have ever done will be out there forever to be endlessly scrutinized. No, he didn't light the world on fire but it was competent. No train wrecks. No wildly varying tempos. Frankly, it was better than the vast majority or rock drummers could have done.

This idea that "swing" defines drumming excellence is nonsense. Prior to the 1920's that concept didn't really even exist. Its one aspect. Its one style. The idea that it transcends genres and is the crucible of all drumming that defines greatness is just ridiculous.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com