I Would Appreciate your Advice (bandmate related)

Any time art and commerce come together it can be tricky. Often I think music and money should not be tied together, but of course, it costs money to make music, so there is often no escaping that.

A while back I met a singer songwriter through my wife. I said I had a studio, and she should come by and record stuff and we could work on it together. She asked what I charged, because she didn't really have any money. I said upfront, I'm not a business, it's just fun. OK, so she came over, we recorded some of her just singing and playing piano. I took that and started adding bass lines, drums, other instruments, fleshing out her ideas into full fledged songs. It's cool. She's digging it, I'm digging it, it's just fun. Then she gets this idea she wants to hire some extra studio musicians, raise money on kickstarter, and sell CDs of the finished product. I'm like, ok, I highly doubt this will turn a profit, but in case it does, we should have something in place that says I get part of the money since I'm providing the studio, my time, labor, equipment, my playing etc.

She freaked out over this and the whole thing came to halt.

She got hurt feelings that I would want a cut any money from her songs, and I was hurt she expected me to do all this work and not get paid, partially when I specified I only expected to get paid on the off chance it would turn a profit. I was down for doing the whole thing "just for fun" with zero expectations, but she threw away the deal because she wanted me to be "unpaid employee" while I was trying to be "band member".

A mere mention of money torpedoed what should have just been art.

Back when I was younger, looking for bands, so many times I'd talk to a band. On the phone, they want "a band member" and someone who will "pull equal weight" but then you get into the rehearsal room, and it's clear they don't you to contribute, say anything, have an opinion or do anything out side exactly what you're told. I realize as the new guy, you have learn the existing songs, and respect the songwriters, and fall in line with the plan. But it's my life too. I'll happily be your hired gun if you want to pay me, but if I'm doing it for no pay, then I should be a band member with at least some say in how my life in the band is going to go.

I do get where Jonathan is coming from. I really do. But I can also relate to where the other guys are coming from, because I've been in similar situations many times.
 
You have all summed it up beautifully. I have apologised if I mistreated them, but we won't be working together again. While I regret the way it happened, I don't regret that it happened, as I really cannot tolerate negligent band mates.

I have learned from this though.


Edit: larryace and drumeatdrum, thank you especially for your posts, you have given me a lot to think about.

It's not 'negligent' for an amateur, unpaid, band-member (and it sounds like these guys were band members), to have to place his paid work, or family, or whatever, ahead of the band.

Our bassist is a cop...his work always comes ahead of the band, and we have to deal with that as we want him in our band, even if we have a chance for a top paying gig.

If you want 100% reliability (never really fully attainable of course) then you need to employ, AND PAY, full time pro musicians.

Just my two-pennuth, and my humble opinion only.
 
It's not 'negligent' for an amateur, unpaid, band-member (and it sounds like these guys were band members), to have to place his paid work, or family, or whatever, ahead of the band.

Our bassist is a cop...his work always comes ahead of the band, and we have to deal with that as we want him in our band, even if we have a chance for a top paying gig.

If you want 100% reliability (never really fully attainable of course) then you need to employ, AND PAY, full time pro musicians.

Just my two-pennuth, and my humble opinion only.

You're absolutely right. I've learned a lot from this episode, and as always, from the wise words on this forum. Negligent was the wrong word. From previous bands, I vowed to myself never to put up with band mates who skipped rehearsals, didn't practice, etc. etc., and I guess this turned me into a bit of a tyrant. I was partially blind to the fact that they had their own lives and this was my project, but on the other hand, I had made it very clear that if they said they were in, I expected commitment. They agreed to that, so it is still annoying to have them behave that way.
 
It's not 'negligent' for an amateur, unpaid, band-member (and it sounds like these guys were band members), to have to place his paid work, or family, or whatever, ahead of the band.

Our bassist is a cop...his work always comes ahead of the band, and we have to deal with that as we want him in our band, even if we have a chance for a top paying gig.

If you want 100% reliability (never really fully attainable of course) then you need to employ, AND PAY, full time pro musicians.

Just my two-pennuth, and my humble opinion only.

^^^This.

I agree you were in a tough situation, but essentially you were the non-paying employer, and they were the two employees not getting paid. I get a much better reaction when I approach friends with a project and tell them how much I'm willing to spend. Their time and talent is worth a monetary amount, and I would expect no less if they asked me to be a part of their project. I think that's only fair.

In your case you said you could've gotten better players for the recording, no? I would've just not wasted my time with rehearsals with sub-standard players and hired the session guys out-right. Get the project done and in the can as fast as possible because there's so much other business to tend to after the fact.

But I'm glad it all worked out.
 
Interesting thread and interesting situation... which many bands tends to have in relation to attending rehearsals.

First, after reading the OP all I can say is "as you make your bed, so you must lie in it" without being nasty or disrespectful Jonathan.

From what you're saying they're not pro musicians (they have other priorities) and secondly they're not paid which puts you in a difficult position to expect them to turn up at every rehearsals, as you said they have put time and effort in at rehearsals totally free of charge.

SquadLeader's right, I use to play with a bass player which happen to be a doctor in a hospital and many a time he didn't turn up to rehearsals due to professional commitments or he had to leave in the middle of a rehearsal after receiving a message for an urgency at the hospital.

Ian's (DED) right too, there's a grey areas within the concept of your project, if you made a "professional" offer it would have been different, everyone knows were they stand, including you as the "boss".

Throughout all the bands I played for the last 35 years, this commitment issue has happened in every band, with various excuses given each time, I never ever missed a rehearsal and I always expected the other bands members to have the same dedication to the band as I did, but life, responsibilities and other commitments makes this almost impossible among non-pro bands, even pro-outfit can have this problem.

I can see your frustration, but unless you pay someone up front for what they do, you can't expect them to turn up for "work" everytime, as Larry said, it's all down to money... but money can sometimes takes away the "fun" and "creativity" factors and become just a "business" matter between who's involved within the project and the leader.

Best luck with your project and I hope it all goes well for you :)
 
Interesting thread and interesting situation... which many bands tends to have in relation to attending rehearsals.

First, after reading the OP all I can say is "as you make your bed, so you must lie in it" without being nasty or disrespectful Jonathan.

From what you're saying they're not pro musicians (they have other priorities) and secondly they're not paid which puts you in a difficult position to expect them to turn up at every rehearsals, as you said they have put time and effort in at rehearsals totally free of charge.

SquadLeader's right, I use to play with a bass player which happen to be a doctor in a hospital and many a time he didn't turn up to rehearsals due to professional commitments or he had to leave in the middle of a rehearsal after receiving a message for an urgency at the hospital.

Ian's (DED) right too, there's a grey areas within the concept of your project, if you made a "professional" offer it would have been different, everyone knows were they stand, including you as the "boss".

Throughout all the bands I played for the last 35 years, this commitment issue has happened in every band, with various excuses given each time, I never ever missed a rehearsal and I always expected the other bands members to have the same dedication to the band as I did, but life, responsibilities and other commitments makes this almost impossible among non-pro bands, even pro-outfit can have this problem.

I can see your frustration, but unless you pay someone up front for what they do, you can't expect them to turn up for "work" everytime, as Larry said, it's all down to money... but money can sometimes takes away the "fun" and "creativity" factors and become just a "business" matter between who's involved within the project and the leader.

Best luck with your project and I hope it all goes well for you :)

I wonder how common this is amongst large, fully pro outfits, as the musicians spread their wings, undertake other projects, etc.

Take Steven Van Zandt for example. I've been watching the Sopranos of late and, until someone told me, I had no idea that Tony Sopranos 'Consigliere' was also a guitarist in The E Street Band, whose musical commitments must be massive.

He must have been extraordinarily busy over the six seasons of the Sopranos and must have had to divide his commitments up?
 
As someone currently in the 'grey area' (Not a band member or session musician, but somewhere in between) I can understand where they are coming from. My situation is slightly different, any of the money we do earn is put into a band fund which we use to pay to make CD's or t-shirts or whatever needs paying for. But travel and rehearsals are not covered by this fund so its all coming out of our own pockets. It was, and still can be, hard with people who always want you to be free (If I ever have a payed gig with another band, which I let them know in advance about that I won't be free, they are always funny about it, or will just book it even though I said I can't) and won't or can't pay you. But I enjoy playing with them and hopefully something good will come of it in the long run.

On the other hand I'm writing and recording my own EP at the moment, apart from the bass which my close friend will be helping me with. I'm hoping to be gigging it eventually if everything turns out well and if I do I'd want band members to be committed to it. So long as everyone has agreed on how the money works and they know whats going on.

I'm rambling about my own life to much, but I agree that it was the right thing to happen for all of you I expect. You need more committed band members if you want to be successful and professional, and if they quit after a firm email rather than think 'Yeah we need to try harder' then they probably weren't all that happy by the end.
 
It's really impossible for us to judge from where we sit but I will say:

They are playing your music and one thing for sure is that you are going to care more about the project than them.

The amount they're being paid would be a factor but at the end of the day it's your goal, they are helping you achieve it, so make sure you're being patient enough and be careful with the relationship. Sometimes it's hard to know whether you're being fair. From reading your posts in the past - I know that you're ultra dedicated with your practice so you might have pretty high expectations of these guys.

Good luck with it.
 
I swear I don't come into these things just trying to play Devil's advocate, but I disagree with pretty much everyone here on this.

It's absolutely, rock-solid fine what Jonathan did. He asked for a commitment, told them up front they wouldn't be paid, they knew all this going in. They didn't live up to the commitment and Jonathan decided to move on.

What's the problem here? It all worked out the way it inevitably would have anyway. The other musicians have a right to decide they have higher priorities than the rehearsals. They said they were in, then changed their mind. So Jonathan changed his.

Now, Jonathan can move on to his next group of musicians and those cats can do what they need to do in their lives.

It's beautifully logical, and inevitable.
 
I swear I don't come into these things just trying to play Devil's advocate, but I disagree with pretty much everyone here on this.

It's absolutely, rock-solid fine what Jonathan did. He asked for a commitment, told them up front they wouldn't be paid, they knew all this going in. They didn't live up to the commitment and Jonathan decided to move on.

What's the problem here? It all worked out the way it inevitably would have anyway. The other musicians have a right to decide they have higher priorities than the rehearsals. They said they were in, then changed their mind. So Jonathan changed his.

Now, Jonathan can move on to his next group of musicians and those cats can do what they need to do in their lives.

It's beautifully logical, and inevitable.


Thanks for the encouragement. This was certainly my original interpretation. However, I can't deny that some of the contradicting replies of here have made me consider it from on alternative perspective. Still, you ate right, it was inevitable, and has now happened.

This is why I love this place though. So much wisdom, even in disagreement.
 
I gig with jazz musicians that hire the pro's for the big gigs or recording sessions. I'm never
saddened when I hear someone like Paul Wertico was used instead of me....holy schmoly...
I'm not in that league at all and it just makes me feel flattered that I get gig work with the
same guys on lesser engagements. I would hope the guys you are playing with would feel the same way.

I can kind of see where you are coming from, but I could never accept the same situation. If I am in a band I am a band member, If they are not confident in my playing for "The big gigs" but deem me OK for "Lesser engagements" I would walk. You are either the bands drummer or you are not. I think it would be demeaning to be considered a second string stand in when things are not that important.
Do they substitute other band members like this???
 
I swear I don't come into these things just trying to play Devil's advocate, but I disagree with pretty much everyone here on this.

It's absolutely, rock-solid fine what Jonathan did. He asked for a commitment, told them up front they wouldn't be paid, they knew all this going in. They didn't live up to the commitment and Jonathan decided to move on.

What's the problem here? It all worked out the way it inevitably would have anyway. The other musicians have a right to decide they have higher priorities than the rehearsals. They said they were in, then changed their mind. So Jonathan changed his.

Now, Jonathan can move on to his next group of musicians and those cats can do what they need to do in their lives.

It's beautifully logical, and inevitable.

I don't think you're even disagreeing. Certainly no one is defending them for canceling rehearsals, or their acting unprofessionally.

You are correct, it was inevitable. My comments were more about how to avoid it continuing to go down the same inevitable path again and again.
 
There were 3 people involved here and the problems were as much yours as theirs.

Amateur musicians get together all day, every day to try to make something happen. Sometimes it works well but often it doesn't.
 
In my experience, twice-weekly rehearsal schedules are hard to maintain with amateur players, it's simply too big a commitment to stick to week in week out, especially where there's a lot of new material to take on. Might be an idea to lessen the work load and reduce to one practice a week, maybe with a longer session one Sunday a month.
 
I was sort of on the other side of this last year, and is why the band I was in split up. 2 of us had full time jobs, the other 2 didn't, or at most had the occasional part time job.

To cut a long story short, I joined the band after an audition. It was mostly great for nearly 2 years, and then suddenly after playing a festival abroad, the 2 guys that didn't work wanted more time and commitment, such as helping out with band admin (getting gigs, etc). I just don't think they understood how tiring working 8 hours a day can be especially when self employed and have contractual commitments.

What I couldn't understand is they had many musicians dream job: they were spending all of their time in the practice room (that we all paid for), either working on songs or doing admin.

After numerous "digs" about not putting enough into the band, I eventually quit and so did the other guy. None of the share of money from gigs came my way, plus it was me that did most of the driving to gigs.

I never felt so unappreciated. I used to practice the material or just practice playing every single day. To them though that was not putting time into the band (?!) Very odd. I don't think I ever missed a rehearsal except if I was ill.

I'm still a bit miffed about how it ended, and it is a shame because we went through a lot together.
 
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