Observations about tuning

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
So I saw this band last night, so naturally I was checking out the drummer and especially his sound, and here are my observations.
Basically, and this is my opinion, his drums sounded very lackluster because they were all tuned just too low. My GF mentioned it first. I was pretty close to the stage, and I could tell that in the drum chair, they probably sounded OK, but out in the audience....no liveliness to the toms, just an unsatisfying impact with no real tone to it. Also about muffling...that also kills the tone when listened to from the audience. I wish people would let the drum ring, those "annoying" overtones that a lot of guys muffle away are the very personality of the drum. His snare was tuned too low and sounded...boring. It was just screaming to be tightened up. Anyway, my point is, low tunings sound like crap unmiced (IMO) from the audience. The toms sound so much better than you think when tuned well above the low thud that sounds good from the throne, and they carry so much better through the room. Drums that are tuned higher than what you think sounds good, sound even better out front, that's my observation.
 
Oh so true, but I think that the head has to have a certain amount of tension to transfer it's vibrations to the shell more. I'd say a medium to medium-high tension tuning, not low, sounds best unmiced. You hear the shell and the atmosphere of the drums better
 
I think the key point in the original statement is that it sounds good to the drummer but not the audience. I let somoene my Dad Maths tutors play on my kit and I often notice what needs to be re-tuned just through going downstairs and listening to him play. Nice thread

Tom
 
Many drummers want their drums to sound like they do on records, so they muffle them up as if for miking. They sound great in the practice room but they don't realize that when they play them out unmiked they sound soft and lifeless.

As larryace says, tuning higher (without choking the drums) is necessary. But the thing that gets you heard is sustain--something a lot of drummers try to eliminate at all costs.

For playing out unmiked:

Toms should use unmuffled, preferably single-ply heads(they're louder), with batters and resos tuned to the same pitch. They should be tuned higher than for miking and further apart--toms tuned in thirds can sound like an undifferentiated rumble unmiked. Try tuning in fourths, at least between your lowest toms. Then you'll begin to hear each drum as an entity from out front.

Snares should use a single-ply coated batter with no muffling. Let it ring. A muffled snare drum sounds soft and dead from out front, while a snare drum that rings will sound loud and lively.

Bass drums should use single-ply barely muffled heads. Remo PS3s and Evans EQ4s have a control ring that takes out the "boing" but leaves the sustain. No port and nothing in the drum. Bass drums should be tuned above the just-above-wrinkle stage that is preferred for miked bass drums. Tune the reso up past JAW, just to where it begins to make a real tone with some bottom and sustain. Then tune the batter a little higher.

A bass drum muffled for miking simply won't be heard from out front.

My kid, who plays loud rock unmiked, recently played a venue where, after setting out the vocal mikes and putting the keyboard into the PA, the sound guy only had one input left. He told us he'd put a mic on the bass drum "because you'll need it." So he mikes the bass drum--set up and tuned as described above--and five minutes into sound check he walks up and takes the microphone away. He was shaking his head and looking at me like WTF?
 
I have always been a fan of slightly tight tuning. I use two ply batter heads and single ply reso's, but I get enough ring from them if their tuned high enough. I also tune my toms far apart because I also have noticed that they can sound almost the same out in front. I keep my snare in the middle of fat and thin. I use a two ply head on the snare batter also. Every drum has a point where it begins to sing no matter what amount of plies that the head has. One just has to find the sweet spot between that particular head choice and the drum. I guess that most drummers listen to so much studio recorded music that they just don't know what a live drum kit is supposed to sound like. I never knew either until one day many years ago I heard a friend play my kit live. That prompted me to change my tuning techniques. I have helped many drummers with tuning issues over the years.
 
I guess that most drummers listen to so much studio recorded music that they just don't know what a live drum kit is supposed to sound like..


Agreed. I recently just realized that a slightly tighter tuning makes the drums really sound great in the audience. I had to re-learn what the drums should sound like from the throne. I did a 2 band gig with my new higher tunings, so I got to hear a good drummer play them from the audience, and I was so pleased with the tone, it really added a lot to the overall sound of the music. Unmiced, low tunings sound good from the throne, but sound like cardboard in the audience. We're talking unmiced here.
 
It's one of the biggest lessons I learned at a Clinic by Simon Phillips I think.

What your kit sounds like sitting behind the throne and what it sounds like from 30 feet away are two completely different things.


I never truly knew what a properly tuned kit sounded like till I saw those raw footage videos of sound checks before gigs. They sounded exactly like my idea of terrible back when I was still ignorant. Fancy that.
 
Agreed. I recently just realized that a slightly tighter tuning makes the drums really sound great in the audience. I had to re-learn what the drums should sound like from the throne. I did a 2 band gig with my new higher tunings, so I got to hear a good drummer play them from the audience, and I was so pleased with the tone, it really added a lot to the overall sound of the music. Unmiced, low tunings sound good from the throne, but sound like cardboard in the audience. We're talking unmiced here.
Isn't it a rude awakening when you first hear a good drummer play your kit that you thought sounded good. And you realize that it isn't what you thought it was. It was a shock to me!
 
Even when I use big drums and tune very low, I like the "whole note" philosophy.

I've currently been using a 13x14 rack, and a 16x18 floor with a 16x26 inch kick and I've been using clear Emperors as batters and clear Ambassadors for resos on the toms. They're tuned REALLY low, but they have TONS of sustain and get that stretchy DahhhhWOOOmmm thing happening. (if you know what I mean) The note stretches and relaxes as it sustains and really gets some air moving. The Emps being double ply seem to give an almost electronic click to the attack and it gives a definite "heads up" to the beginning of every note played so it doesn't all sound like mush from all that sustain.

I kinda try for the same effect on the kick too by using it wide open with a Powerstroke 3 batter a Ludwig logo head reso with a very clicky beater pad and wood or plastic beaters, so the sustain AND the attack are there to compliment one another and chase that tone out off the stage and into the room.
 
But Viper, your last post is kinda the opposite of what's being stated here.
 
But Viper, your last post is kinda the opposite of what's being stated here.
In what way? I was merely saying how I can get a LOW tuned head to carry across a room pretty effectively. LOTS of sustain, and plenty of attack with the low tuning helps make it speak clearly enough to be heard.

I USUALLY use single ply heads and a mid/high tuning which doesn't need the extra attack to help make it heard clearly.

I was kinda showing a way to have the best of the low tuning AND still have it sound not too mushy.
 
some heads are designed for low tuning and some for high. visit the manufacturer's website for recommendations. a low head that is cranked high will sound aweful as will a high head that is tuned low.

j
I've been using Aquarian Performance II's with Power Dot as Batters on my toms. I'm using Remo Diplomat Clear on the bottoms. The Performance IIs are designed for loose tuning. I tuned them loose at first and they were like cardboard! I couldn't tell one tom from the other, from afar. I cranked them up until they began to ring a slight bit and they sound wonderful! Even though they are tighter, they still sound a little bit low. There is good seperation between the toms and they cut without being muddy, weather I mic them or not. They have just enough ring. Several people (some drummers, some not) have asked me during the past year how I make my kit sound so good. There are some thick heads that sound good when they are on the tight side, even though the manufacturer recommends otherwise! You have to experiment. I was almost going to give up on them until I fooled around with them a bit. Keep in mind that the Performance II's are kind of all by themselves when you compare them to other manufacturers heads.
 
I agree with some of the tuning concepts presented here.

Another good way to "tell" if your tuning is appropriate for the venue or live audience and when you're using no mics is to record yourself! I always take my little Zoom H2 and set it up either where the sound guy is or put it somewhere a good 30-50 ft away from the stage and set the recording level appropriately.

Then you can tell if your tunings are too dead, high, etc.

I used to be all for that "let me replicate the drums sounds on my CDs" by overdampening the drums but now I use single-ply tops and bottoms and with NOTHING muffling the drums. It drives me a little batty at home practicing with all the ring but going live all the drums sound fantastic.

I follow tuning methods from Todd Sucherman, Dave Weckl, and Bob Gatzen. Their stuff is right on.
 
It drives me a little batty at home practicing with all the ring but going live all the drums sound fantastic.

I would like to start a mindset that the "ring" in drums is the holy grail in drum sound and the dead sound is....dead. I love that ring, the fills "last" longer, sound bigger and fill the space up better. Why do the majority of drummers think that the "ring" is something we need to avoid?
You know what, on second hand, keep muffling the life out of the drums, it'll make mine sound so much better by comparison.

Trip I'm not singling you out, just using your comment as it reflects the majority of attitudes I encounter.
 
I did some recording at a studio last Sunday. I walked in and I checked out the studio kit. It is a good quality Sonor with black Evans Hydraulic heads. I picked up a stick and I struck the four toms. They were like hitting pillows! I tapped around the edge of the heads by the lugs. No two taps sounding alike on any drum! The engineer told me that the last drummer in there tuned the kit that way. I played the kick, It was deader than a piece of cardboard! I was early, so I spent some time tuning the toms and the bass. I gave up on the snare! Believe it or not it was made from oak and the batter was so shot that the rim was lower than the bearing edge! LOL!!! I set up my chrome snare and my cymbals on the stands and I riffed on the kit for a while. The engineer gave me a playback and the kit sounded fine! I can only wonder what the last drummer who played the kit was thinking!
 
So I saw this band last night, so naturally I was checking out the drummer and especially his sound, and here are my observations.
Basically, and this is my opinion, his drums sounded very lackluster because they were all tuned just too low. My GF mentioned it first. I was pretty close to the stage, and I could tell that in the drum chair, they probably sounded OK, but out in the audience....no liveliness to the toms, just an unsatisfying impact with no real tone to it. Also about muffling...that also kills the tone when listened to from the audience. I wish people would let the drum ring, those "annoying" overtones that a lot of guys muffle away are the very personality of the drum. His snare was tuned too low and sounded...boring. It was just screaming to be tightened up. Anyway, my point is, low tunings sound like crap unmiced (IMO) from the audience. The toms sound so much better than you think when tuned well above the low thud that sounds good from the throne, and they carry so much better through the room. Drums that are tuned higher than what you think sounds good, sound even better out front, that's my observation.

Low drums sound great, depending on how they are tuned. I've heard plenty of jumpy, boingy drums tuned high and some sounded good and some sounded bad.

Within the range of what sounds nice, there is a high end and a low end. I like mine at the low end, but it really depends on the genre and what you want to sound like.
 
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