Clave

S

Sweetnoise

Junior Member
Ive been told there is a Cuban and a Brazilian version. The difference being the grouping of the middle two beats. So, 1 2 3 - 1 2 - 1 2 3 go both. But the 1 2 is just a hair quicker in the Cuban. So Ive come to understand.... Its easy to fool around with both, and they feel quite different. Recreating both in a software program is making me wonder if the guy who explained it to me got it right however... my Question is: 1. was he right? 2. if he is, can either of them be played by humans? :) I mean, is subtle fluctuation part of the deal? Or are we supposed to learn it like a machine, and play them exactly so?
I hope this makes sense, if not say so and Ill try to make it clearer... Thanks!!!
 
Assuming we're talking about the same thing-- Son clave in Cuban music, and the 'bossa' rhythm in Brazilian music: the two rhythms are exactly the same, except with the Brazilian rhythm the second note of the '1-2' part comes later.

But clave is a Cuban concept, and there's more to it than just the rhythm-- it's a fundamental organizing principle of the music, and there's a lot of theory surrounding it. The same is not true of that Brazilian rhythm, and I don't believe the word clave is correctly used at all in Brazilian music.

Subtle fluctuation is part of the deal, but not to the point that you would mistake one of those rhythms for the other. Each of them is often played with a pull towards a triplet feel which you learn from listening to, and playing, a whole lot of that music.
 
Learn to line up whatever parts you're playing perfect equal when playing with Cuban clave, then shift the rhythms around to flatten them out. A good idea is to listen to rumba (start with groups such as Los Muñequitos de Matanzas or Afrocuba de Matanzas) and try playing clave with a set of sticks all the way through songs.

Michael Spiro has a good explanation of how to flatten out the feel of Cuban music by playing in "Fix": Playing in Fix

This does not apply to Brazilian music as the feel is different. I believe much of the Wikipedia page on clave was written by David Peñalosa, author of "The Clave Matrix", so it does read down as fairly accurate. You may want to start there, but definitely listen to music by various artists from various locations (the feel is different event between Havana and Matanzas in Cuba).
 
I would definitely avoid thinking of clave in Brazilian music Sure, there is an underlying feel to most types of Brazilian music, but clave in the way you appear to be thinking of it doesn't really happen in Brazilian music; or if it does it's certainly not as prevalent. When playing a Son clave, save some very rare exceptions, you never deviate from that pattern. It's always there and very much prevalent. It carries the music. The Bossa Nova "clave" on the other hand is just a feel. It's not critical that you play that exact rhythm through the whole tune. It can be improvised, and varied.

Also, it's important to keep in mind how different these musics are. There are thousands of miles separating Cuba and Brazil. They speak different languages, have completely different cultures and music. You are really comparing apples and oranges here; or horses and oranges. I recommend focusing on each of them separately. We, as Americans and Europeans, have a bad habit of lumping everything south of Florida into one type of music, which I find incredibly frustrating.

Furthermore, bear in mind how broad the terms "Brazilian music", or "Cuban music" are themselves. Imagine if someone from Asia said, "Explain to me how American music works." Are they talking about jazz, blues, country, rock 'n' roll? There are numerous types of music within both Cuba and Brazil which each have their own characteristics.

What I'm try to say is that I think you'll find more success if you approach each of these things separately.
 
3-2 Son Clave (cuban)
3-2_Son_Clave.png


3-2 bossa clave (as it's labelled in the image I found) (brazillian)
Bossa_Clave.png
 
Yes, those are both correct, but I still argue that clave is the wrong word to use for the Brazilian rhythm. The two rhythms posted there serve completely different purposes in their respective musics. In Cuban music that clave is the foundation for the whole piece; the glue that holds everything together. On the Brazilian side, that rhythm is just a suggestion for an accompaniment part. It is not the most essential part of the music, and it can be varied in much the same way a jazz ride cymbal pattern can.
 
I agree, calling it clave is wrong, and calling it 3-2 is wrong. I've heard American amateur batucada people refer to Brazilian rhythms generally as "clave", especially with regard to being on the wrong side of the rhythm-- like you're on surdo playing the muffled notes on the wrong beat. I once used the word in that sense when talking to my pianist, Weber Iago, from Rio, and he said "Brazilian music doesn't use clave." I found one video of a Brazilian using the word clave, in reference to the first surdo, which sure doesn't play the rhythm below. I think he's just using it as a familiar word for 'rhythmic foundation' to his white audience. I haven't been around that many Brazilians, so maybe they're all saying clave and I don't know about it, but none of the main books ever use it.

If I may rant for a moment: I'm kind of in awe at how much screwed-up information there is out there about this, even on the big sites. On the YouTubes, three of the first things that come up that are supposed to be about Son Clave (which these guys pronounce as "sun" or "sawn"), put the rhythm on top of a samba feel. Which, I hope we've established by now, is like putting Bolognese on a soufflé. Like putting a Mercedes hood ornament on a Cadillac. It's like everyone is just doing the same Internet search, and calling it good. “OK, I'm ready to teach 'Latin' drumming.” You can forgive some of them, because they're just random dudes, but the Drumeo guy is plastering himself everywhere as some kind of major authority-- you can't do a google search of any drumming topic without getting multiple Drumeo hits. Like, MF, buy a record, and a book before you spew all over my Internet. Do some basic research.

That's been bugging me for a couple of days...
 
I like to think that for a gringo I'm fairly well clued up on a lot of Brazilian music and how it functions. I'm lucky enough to get to play with quite a few Brazilian guys and I don't think I've ever heard the word clave short of one exception. He was talking about how someone was phrasing on the wrong side of the partido alto rhythm, but I got the impression that he was using it in the same type of context that Todd mentioned; a familiar term for rhythmic foundation.

Todd, I appreciate your rant, and second it emphatically. That type of ignorance is incredibly frustrating to have to look at all the time.
 
Thanks for the education, which it certainly is for me!! So, Im seeing the main thing is; 1. Brazillian: use as accenting and just mixing it up, have fun! Learn more
As well. 2. Cuban: get going, do it right, keep it STEADY, or get slapped by someone;). Learn more... 3. Dont mix the two!
 
adamosmianski said:
Todd, I appreciate your rant, and second it emphatically. That type of ignorance is incredibly frustrating to have to look at all the time.
Click to expand...

I try to be as conservative about voicing opinions with this type of music, because it really isn't my area of expertise, but it makes me kind of cranky when teachers are that lazy.

adamosmianski said:
I think #3 is the most important of those unless you're specifically going for some kind of fusion thing. If you want to be idiomatic about it and play "proper" samba, or salsa or whatever, then never the twain shall meet.
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There is a right way and a wrong way to play “generic” Latin. Transplanting exact idioms into tunes that are obviously of the other style is not one of the right ways— like, you don't play songo on One Note Samba. I've had pianists do exactly that— playing a salsa montuno on a Jobim tune. It's frigging awful.
 
He's not playing that in any kind of context though. He's by himself. Obviously a bunch of 16th note based things are going to fit together rhythmically. And as I said earlier, if you're specifically going for some kind of fusion between the two, then fine. Maybe Bernard would've played something like that on a Steely Dan record. But I'm fairly confident that if you put him in a salsa band he wouldn't be playing a samba, and vice versa.
 
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So I saw a guy playing samba and switched to 2/3 cascara pattern on a bell, then back. Cool, works for me. Sure, he didn't explicitly play clave when switching to the Afro-Cuban style, but clave is already built into cascara.
 
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