MOELLER METHOD

Re: FREE/MOELLER STROKE

I noticed that too, how he lets go of the stick, that is really weird. I don't think Famularo actually teaches that method though, I guess it is just something he does.

In regards to your posts; to me a full stroke is all about volume, the further the stick travels the louder the sound can be. So I bring the stick all the way back after one loud stroke so I can whap the drum again. If I am playing a final loud stroke, I may not bring the stick back up, or I may just let it come back up as far as it rebounds. I have never experienced any tension playing this way.

Regards,

Alex

Hello Alex,
Let's pretend I'm a beginner, I go to the Vic Firth website and watch Dom tell me
about this fundamental motion the free stroke, that I should start with,
so I watch and copy him and get his bad habit. Yes he's is teaching it.
Whether it's by design or ignorance I do not know.
But the beginner won't recognize the weirdness you saw as
he has no experience to draw from to make any determination about Dom
and what he says.
Yes the farther a stick travels the more force it will carry,
also the faster it goes up the faster it will come down and that's
where I get the extra force for the whap as you so eloquently called it : )
As fast as you can lift, gravity will always match you on the way down,
so why use your muscles primarily to move down when gravity serves the same purpose?
But who knows maybe all the scientists, athletes, physical trainers,
yogi's, physists, astronomers, doctors and all my old college profs
have got all this motion, gravity and anatomy stuff
all wrong and I should just trust what Dom and Moeller say
to be correct. They must have superior knowledge after
all they are drummers.
 
Re: Aaron Spears pic/video?

Nope i checked youtube first. . . . .Nothing. . .well not the full clip anyway?

Well, its from the interview segment from MD 2006 DVDs ( thats a 4 disc package) which includes Aarons performace, solo, & wth marvn McQuitty, Ted Campbell & Gerald Heyward.

A friend of mine saw the performance live and said Aaron brought the house down. I
 
Re: the moler technique

Don't misunderstand the benifit of Moeller. It is about economy of motion - gettting more for less work. It isn't meant to be the be-all end-all for speed.

Why does everyone here assume I don't know Moeller
methods because I don't think some of it is very useful for playing?
How can economy of motion be economical when it wastes
energy arresting the sticks motion at the top of it's arc.
I get dissed for stating the simple reality
that everything on earth moves up to come down.
Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down
and I think that fact must be observed for economical motion
to take place, is this idea so hard to understand or accept?
I'm beginning to think that if I say the world is round
the drummers on this forum are going to tell me I don't
know anything and that it is flat. It would make a perfect fit ,
right along with their understanding of motion and anatomy.
 
Re: the moler technique

This has to be a joke. (??)

I suggest everyone drop out of this debate, it's clear there's no hope for enlightenment.
 
Re: FREE STROKE

Actually, I am watching the new JoJo Mayer video tonight and he demonstrates letting go of the stick (or bouncing it) when talking about the the free stroke. But I believe JoJo does this for demonstration purposes only, because in the final demonstration of the free stroke he is holding onto the stick with his middle finger fulcrum.

But I am going to try the bouncing thing for fun and see how it feels. You learn something new every day.

Hello Alex,
Let's pretend I'm a beginner, I go to the Vic Firth website and watch Dom tell me
about this fundamental motion the free stroke, that I should start with,
so I watch and copy him and get his bad habit. Yes he's is teaching it.
Whether it's by design or ignorance I do not know.
But the beginner won't recognize the weirdness you saw as
he has no experience to draw from to make any determination about Dom
and what he says.
Yes the farther a stick travels the more force it will carry,
also the faster it goes up the faster it will come down and that's
where I get the extra force for the whap as you so eloquently called it : )
As fast as you can lift, gravity will always match you on the way down,
so why use your muscles primarily to move down when gravity serves the same purpose?
But who knows maybe all the scientists, athletes, physical trainers,
yogi's, physists, astronomers, doctors and all my old college profs
have got all this motion, gravity and anatomy stuff
all wrong and I should just trust what Dom and Moeller say
to be correct. They must have superior knowledge after
all they are drummers.
 
Re: FREE/MOELLER STROKE

You don't have to practice holding the sticks at different heights to learn how to control dynamics. --- When your mind tells your hands to play a note, do you lift? Or have you already trained the muscles to push down?

I'm not practicing holding the sticks at different heights. I'm practicing 1) lifting the sticks to different heights or 2) letting them rebound to different heights and 3) throwing the sticks down from different heights. There's no constant tension in my hands; my wrists and fingers work like springs that throw the stick back down.

They work against gravity every time you move yourself in any way. They are working against gravity constantly to keep you standing up.

When trying to walk forwards, which do you reckon is more energy efficient:

a) Standing up from a prone position, taking a step and falling down again, or
b) Taking a step after step, not resting between steps.

Dribbling the stick like a ball does not build any muscles you don't already have. But lifting will and until you have those muscles working properly you will not understand where I'm coming from because you cannot feel it. Your too weak. The strength I'm talking
about is not BIG ATHLETE MUSCLES, it's lean fast twitch muscle. I know that lifting a light weight quickly and repeatedly will build fast twitch muscle. So, please explain to me how throwing the stick down works the muscles you use to play and makes them
get stronger without ever resisting against gravity's pull.

There are twitch muscles for both directions, Jack. By practicing the full stroke and the down stroke you're working on the twitch muscles that move the wrist down. By practicing the up stroke you're working on the twitch muscles that move the wrists up.

I have never seen a piece of exercise equipment of any kind for any muscle group that works on the principle of throwing weight down. Have you? Do you make tight jabbing motions in YOGA to build strength, or stretch muscles against gravity slowly and repeatedly.

In drumming, power should come mainly from speed. This it somewhat analogous to martial arts, in which you certainly practice power by making tight jabbing motions (kicks, punches etc...). Granted, you need a certain amount of "slow" strength to move your limbs and keep your body balanced and stable, but "slow" strength in hands and fingers isn't useful for drumming -- or for playing any instrument.

The farther a stick travels the more force it will carry, also the faster it goes up the faster it will come down. -- As fast as you can lift, gravity will always match you on the way down, so why use your muscles primarily to move down when gravity serves the same purpose?

1) The farther the stick is from the drum, the more time and potentialit has to accelerate to any desired velocity. Height won't give power without acceleration. And please don't make any "drop an anvil from an airplane" analogies, since we're not playing with anvils from airplanes. We are moving lightweight sticks and we are moving them small distances.

2) Gravity isn't relative to the speed you lift your sticks. You could lift your stick in a thousandth of a second, yet gravity will have to get the stick moving from a (momentary) halt towards the drum. Gravity isn't that fast to get things moving; you'll get a good amount of acceleration by using twitch muscles. Gravity doesn't serve the purpose of striking a drum at all -- unless you're playing with said anvils from said airplane...

How can economy of motion be economical when it wastes
energy arresting the sticks motion at the top of it's arc. Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down and I think that fact must be observed for economical motion
to take place.

The sticks aren't arrested at the top, they're sprung back. Just like they aren't arrested at the bottom; they're rebounded back if you intend to play a loud stroke right afterwards. You don't wait for an accent keeping the sticks up for five minutes. A single accent motion is pretty much similar to what you play: an upstroke wind-up followed by a downstroke. No stopping sticks up, just one flowing, quick and poweful motion that combines two motions in two directions.
 
Re: Moeller mathod is stupid crap.

OK I said it. and I mean it.
Moeller is a bunch of old crap for marching drummners.

If it makes you so fast, then why after all his years of practicing it
can't Dave Weckl play single strokes as fast and strong as Dennis Chambers? Just looking at Dave and Dennis, I would bet Dave can run
further and faster than Dennis, so why can't he move his hands as fast?
The reason is simple, Dave is fighting gravity and Dennis is using it.
Dennis Chambers in response to a question at a clinic about how he developed his speed, said that he practiced single strokes on a pillow, after he was told to do that by Buddy Rich as a youngster.
Follow the Natural Rebound ??? Not on a pillow!

The stick is not a bouncing ball it is a hammer.
Learn to lift the stick with your wrist muscles, if you want more speed.
On planet earth things will only come down as fast as they move up.
That means speed is first, determined by your muscles lifting ability.
Holding the sticks in the air, and playing what are called full strokes
will build no muscles you don't already have.

Watch the Buddy Rich videos , The Jazz Legend, in one of the drum solos Buddy builds a single stroke roll from slow to the speed of light.
You will see no Moeller Method, no full strokes.
The stick is 1 inch from the drum head and is lifted up to
the height he wants for the volume he's playing at and then he lets the stick come back down to the drum head.
HE DOES NOT HOLD THE STICK UP IN THE AIR AND THROW IT DOWN. HE LIFTS IT UP FIRST. THEN IT COMES DOWN
This is the direct opposite of what all the Moeller advocates are claiming you should practice. Full Strokes and Half strokes were invented so that the drumline would have their sticks moving in synchronicity, it had nothing to do with playing the drumset or performing a drum solo.
You are better off watching the greats play and making your own decisions based on what you see and hear than watching all the drum instruction videos telling you that Moeller is some secret technique that will give you incredible chops.
Moeller ignores the natural laws of motion and anatomy, so how can it lead to superior technique?

Here are a few observations (in random order):

It seems as if you disagree with both Gladstone (the stick is not a ball) and Moeller in your post.

"Let the stick come down" is one of the strangest ways of looking at a stroke that I've ever seen. Joe Morello would say that you were nuts and he was no fan of Moeller. As far as the free stroke not working muscles, try Joe's 2-50 exercise and tell me if muscles haven't been worked.

You mention Buddy in your examples. I have studied with Morello and Chapin as well as Famularo. They all say the same thing. Buddy never practiced on pillows. He used to say that because he heard that it might be good but he never did it. Dom also told me about the one "lesson" he ever got from Buddy. Buddy said "I'm going to show you one thing that is the secret of all drumming" He then proceeded to demonstrate the preliminary exercise for the free stroke. In it, Buddy started from the UP position and threw the stick down. The exercise requires that you allow the stick to rebound all the way back while the hand stays down. So, either Joe, Jim and Dom are lying or you're wrong.

"Full stroke" merely refers to the height the stick is thrown from. It is not exclusively a Moeller term.

Also, Dom deliberately extends his fingers in the free stroke exercise so as to train the reflex with as little resistance as possible. He mentions it in his book.

Moeller does not ignore laws of natural motion. Here's why: The formula for kinetic energy is 1/2 mass times the square of the velocity. Velocity is far more important to kinetic energy than mass. (Which is why baseball players use light bats swung at high speed)

A "regular" stroke would achieve a certain impact force from the speed reached by the circular motion (all circular motion is acceleration) of the stick traveling towards the head. The Moeller stroke actually employs another "circle" (The "whipping motion" ) in addition to the basic circular motion of the stick. Thus we have an accelerated acceleration going on and that's why the Moeller motion can achieve greater impact than a Gladstone stroke from the same stroke height. We are accelerating the stick at a rate faster than 1G anyway in both cases so gravity has nothing to do with it.

The stroke could be made in zero G. Gravity does not affect this equation significantly because it's force is negligible compared to the force imparted upon the stick by the stroke. Gravity also does not affect mass.

Your statement "On planet earth, things only come down as fast as they come up" makes no sense. What physical law are you talking about? It sounds like some new age philosophy. Physics is a matter of forces acting upon bodies. If a force is imparted upon a mass, it will react according to Newton's (or Einsteins but that's not the point here) laws. That's all there is.

You argue that the stick must come up before it goes down and that you disagree with Moeller. Yet that is EXACTLY what happens in a Moeller stroke. The stick tip moves up ( the "whip") before the stroke comes down. In a GLADSTONE /FREE stroke the stick moves down first.

I don't know you and you may be an excellent drummer but I must disagree with you even though i also think that the Moeller stroke is hyped a little too much. It's a useful technique but it does not replace basic wrist and finger technique.

I do appreciate your courage in your convictions because I must admit that I also have some disagreements with the greats. For me, it's the concept of "tension-free" playing. If you stop every exercise as soon as you feel tension developing you will never learn how to manage it and your chops will probably never get serious. Using Buddy again as an example: No one can tell me that he played tension-free. He mastered tension in all it's forms. He would break his ass to get those notes out sometimes. Like a martial artist with a one-inch punch, he learned how to store tension and release it at will. THAT is where it's at.
 
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Re: the moler technique

Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down

Who sad that stick is waiting in the sky - free stroke exercise is to understand motion not for keeping stick in the air! Before fast passages bring the stick up then use rebound for those fast notes and then you can let your hand rest. By the way do you think that someone is holding stick like that when playing on drumset wih crossed hands? No one is asking to keep stick in the air- it's exaggerated possition: exercise.
 
Re: the moler technique

Blimey! This debate seems to be going all over the place.

At the end of that day, different techniques suit different drummers and different styles. I see drumming a bit like golf, you can play a certain way for years to a good standard, then an adjustment can make you better, or possibly worse.

No one way is the difinitive answer, the more you can learn the more flexible you can be.
 
Re: the moler technique

Why does everyone here assume I don't know Moeller
methods because I don't think some of it is very useful for playing?
How can economy of motion be economical when it wastes
energy arresting the sticks motion at the top of it's arc.
I get dissed for stating the simple reality
that everything on earth moves up to come down.
Nothing that moves up waits in the sky before coming down
and I think that fact must be observed for economical motion
to take place, is this idea so hard to understand or accept?
I'm beginning to think that if I say the world is round
the drummers on this forum are going to tell me I don't
know anything and that it is flat. It would make a perfect fit ,
right along with their understanding of motion and anatomy.


You keep stating the same over and over and over again. We keep saying 'no this is not right' but you don't listen.
No-one holds the stick in the air or stops it at the top and keeps it there. Where do you get this from? The demonstration Dom did? That was a demonstration of how to do it. The basic stroke. Not an application of it. There is no stopping in the air of any stroke. Like the ball dribbling analogy, you push it straight back down as it comes up, wherever that may be. One inch from the head or ten, it doesn't matter and yes the world is flat. Where do you get your info from.

The world is round? Pfffft.
 
Re: FREE/MOELLER STROKE

2) Gravity isn't relative to the speed you lift your sticks. You could lift your stick in a thousandth of a second, yet gravity will have to get the stick moving from a (momentary) halt towards the drum. Gravity isn't that fast to get things moving; you'll get a good amount of acceleration by using twitch muscles. Gravity doesn't serve the purpose of striking a drum at all -- unless you're playing with said anvils from said airplane...


Haha well said Wavelength! This is what I've been trying to get at for a while. Gravity doesn't play much of a role in drumming at all. Yes, it is a basic law of nature. But it really only comes into play in any significant way with large objects moving large distances or by keeping our butt on the drum seat. Wizzing a little drumstick around with your wrists and fingers isn't going to be effected by any law of gravity. Or in such a miniscule amount as to be completely irrelevant. Forget the gravity and physics rubbish. It is inconsequential to our argument.

I'm not going to dignify your answer to my other post with a reply. It's getting a bit patronising.



Note: Just read your post Jeff. I think that should answer any and all of your questions regarding the whole physics angle and just playing drums angle.
 
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Re: the moler technique

lets just stop all of this.
Cactusjack can have his own way of playing the drums although he might have a disavantage against other players that use the moeller stroke efficiently.
 
Re: the moler technique

Yeah I'm gonna have a good time playing efficiently with my Moeller technique while you're winding every stroke up like a beginner. It's about efficiency. Bottom line, moeller works for me and no laws of physics are going to make it not work.

Nice post Jeff. That pretty much sums it all up.
 
Re: the moler technique

Yeah I'm gonna have a good time playing efficiently with my Moeller technique while you're winding every stroke up like a beginner. It's about efficiency. Bottom line, moeller works for me and no laws of physics are going to make it not work.

oh my god, as you can see from reading all these posts on my thread im super excited. haha i didnt start this thread for ppl to be put down or roasted i dont wany anyone thinking that. i love everyones responses its very entertaining
 
Re: the moler technique

i love everyones responses its very entertaining

Entertaining? It's become lame, just one guy labouring the same point of view over again, and not even hinting that he might open his mind to a different idea.

That said, there's enough stuff here that you can learn from. So please do. Something worthwhile has to come from it.
 
Re: the moler technique

It's all drum related, so I say: let it rip!!
 
Re: the moler technique

Entertaining? It's become lame, just one guy labouring the same point of view over again, and not even hinting that he might open his mind to a different idea.

That said, there's enough stuff here that you can learn from. So please do. Something worthwhile has to come from it.

hah from what i could understand from that.. i have come to understand more about the moler technique i have dont get me wrong.. i just think its entertaing per say to hear other peoples points of view on one mans point of view? makes sense?
 
Re: the moler technique

cactusjack, if you want to play using your own technique, that's fine. And it's also fine to share how you think about drumming. however, you may not express your self by saying the moeller technique is for old marching drummers.
 
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