Is it immoral to exploit the talents of the young?

The kid is 6 years old...

Kids going to school at 6 isn't about 'uniformity', it isn't about 'the system' knocking the stuffing out of you..

It's about learning how to count, how to spell, and how to function in society.

I've no problem with kids rebelling against the system when they are in their teens, (in fact, hell I've got no problem with any of this anyway, I'm just chewing the fat), but at least then they (mostly) can count, spell, and don't go round throwing other kids on railway lines because they've not been taught that it isn't acceptable.

At the end of the day I think this kids parents are basically abusing the kid, not in the worst way...almost abusing it with love. Of course we see the successful ones, the Williams Sisters, The Jacksons, etc. but we don't see the ones which have turned disastrous.

My post wasn't meant to be an 'anti school'. It was more about our expectations from the institution, as a society.

You might be right on the 3 Rs ( somewhat : ), but functionality in society is a responsibity that sits squarely on the shoulders of a family. The 'modern family unit' has been quite happy to hand over this responsibility to schools, tutors, counsellors, therapists, life coaches, trainers etc.. and as a result we expect way too much from them.. just my opinion, thats all..

The parents of this kid arent anything unusual. I've seen more pushy parents than otherwise while raising my two kids through school. How about all those tennis parents, you mention?

Monica Seles never forgave her father for destroying her childhood. Maria Sharapova, on the other hand thanks her father for having had the foresight to be pushy.

Who am I to judge.


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My post wasn't meant to be an 'anti school' post. It was more about our expectations from the institution, as a society.

You might be right on the 3 Rs ( somewhat : ), but functionality in society is a responsibity that sits squarely on the shoulders of a family. The 'modern family unit' has been quite happy to hand over this responsibility to schools, tutors, counsellors, therapists, life coaches, trainers etc.. and as a result we expect way too much from them.. just my opinion, thats all..

The parents of this kid arent anything unusual. I've seen more pushy parents than otherwise while raising my two kids through school. How about all those tennis parents, you mention?

Monica Seles never forgave her father for destroying her childhood. Maria Sharapova, on the other hand thanks her father for having had the foresight to be pushy.

Who am I to judge.


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You're right in a lot of what you say there...
Personally I think school is the third leg on the tripod alongside mum and dad...perhaps we differ there a little. I'm a tad biased because I think the UK has a great history of primary school teaching and that MAY not be the case everywhere.
But yes, points well made.
 
the parents do indeed seem pushy, but would it be any different than a girl who liked horse-riding? her parents naturally think she can become an olympic dressage competitor.

I think the fundamental difference is the size of the audience. Most kids, whether their parents are pushy or not, get their first taste of success or failure on a scale small enough for them to handle in an environment which is close to home and everything familiar that comes with it. Surely it's healthier to gradually increase one's exposure to public scrutiny - I'm not saying this kid has to stay indoors until he's 21, but neither do I recommend going from zero to 3000km/h in five seconds.

Tao once asked " dont tell me what all you have studied, tell me where all have you travelled".

If that's true, then it's a fairly condescending remark. Surely one concept that is at the core of The Dao and other similar ideas is the notion that everything in the universe is interconnected and therefore interdependent. Some hipster who tells you that you're not sucking the marrow out of life just because he's been back-packing through the Hindu Kush and you haven't is ignoring the very obvious truth that books and schoolyards - as well as car-parks, refuse dumps, sewers, prisons, and Starbucks - are as much a part of our beautiful world as are rain forests and kitten farts.

kids should be learning at that age, but what is learning is a whole new bowl of wax. An underqualified and jaded teacher going through the motions in a disfunctional school system or a wild ride in the real world, where at the age of six you kinda control your own destiny? Its a no brainer. Even if the kid crash lands, he'll be much richer for the experience, I do believe.

Yeah maybe - but not necessarily. As I've said before this "wild ride" all sounds like something someone older always wanted to do but never got the chance. Besides, I don't think the choices for this kid are as binary as is being suggested in parts of this thread.

If this kid's parents want to take him on a big holiday around the world so he can expand his horizons - whatever the chuff that means - then I say all power to them and him. But we ain't talking about that. We're talking about carting him 7,000 miles away from home so he can be gawped at by a bunch of strangers for someone else's profit. I don't see the enriching experience in that.

At the end of the day I think this kids parents are basically abusing the kid

I don't think that "abusing" is too strong a word to use. Perhaps they are not doing that intentionally but that don't mean it ain't so. All of this is indicative of the kind of egomaniacal behaviour that is enabled by things like YouTube and Facebook: ably demonstrated in this case by the fact that his parents (or more likely these days - his publicists) have posted pictures on his blog making much of the fact that he only weighed 1lb 13oz when he was born. Seriously, I'm not making this up.
 
Surely it's healthier to gradually increase one's exposure to public scrutiny - I'm not saying this kid has to stay indoors until he's 21, but neither do I recommend going from zero to 3000km/h in five seconds.

BTC, you're just recommending a conservative vision of the ideal life path for children as the only proper path. Any deviation from the normal, "proper" path seems so disturbing to you that you call it abuse.

I find that a negative view - more focused on possible dangers than life's possibilities. Opportunities of that magnitude can come once in a lifetime. For most of us they don't come at all.

The fact is that we have all sorts of upbringings and do just fine. I've said it twice and I guess I have to say it again (which requires a larger font to reduce possibility of more circular debate) ...

By far the most important thing with child welfare and outcomes is quality of parenting
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This is not mere supposition or the railing of a progressive against conservative ideals. Check up the literature on the subject of child welfare. It's all about the parenting. Now, if you're saying his parents are jerks, that's different.

I agree that having parents who are selfish jerks is bad for children. That's a problem whether a kid is on the road or going to the school that the last 3 generations of Clavier-Smythes attended ...
 
By far the most important thing with child welfare and outcomes is quality of parenting.This is not mere supposition or the railing of a progressive against conservative ideals. Check up the literature on the subject of child welfare. It's all about the parenting. Now, if you're saying his parents are jerks, that's different [. . .] I agree that having parents who are selfish jerks is bad for children.

Yeah, perhaps I should have been more explicit: I absolutely believe that this child's parents are vain, self-serving, execrable narcissists.

To put this into perspective: a few people have mentioned child stars like Michael Jackson and Maria Sharapova. Now, whether one condones the choice of their parents/guardians to push them hard in their particular fields or not - it at least makes some kind of sense when a parent ploughs every possible second and every possible penny into the furtherance of their child's given field of supposed excellence. Apparently Michael Jackson's father spent Michael's entire childhood doing exactly that - for better or worse - and posterity has shown us the results.

This kid's parents do not appear to have spent any particular effort trying to hone his skills or enlarge his musical capabilities to the prodigious level he is supposed to have. This is evidenced by (a) the fact that a year after the famous video was posted he doesn't seem to be noticeably better than he was and (b) the way he was portrayed as "self taught" from the word go as though his musical aptitude (such as it is) was some kind of Gift From God.

In the case of Titchy The Drumming Boy Wonder all we have here is a rather tawdry scenario where his parents have cashed-in on people's tendency to fawn over small blonde white children in order to score some backstage passes and a couple of free holidays.
 
Life eventually does not go too well for most child stars. While he was wildly successful at a very young age, Michael Jackson ended up having a lot of issues later in life. Many claim it was because he was never allowed to have a normal childhood But a lot of it has to do with whether they have a strong family structure around them. People like Britney and Lindsay have gone off the deep end, while Justin Bieber seems to have kept it together (so far).
 
Yeah, perhaps I should have been more explicit: I absolutely believe that this child's parents are vain, self-serving, execrable narcissists.

Which begs the question why you are not publically expressing concern about all the parents who are far, far worse - molestation, bashing, neglect, spend all their money on booze or gambling etc. Millions and millions of them. That's actual abuse, not sending the little guy off to play some cool gigs. He is so much better off than many.

INOG, you provide scant anecdotal evidence that child stars are worse off than their lower profile peers. If you would like anecdotes beyond the MJ train wreck and a few others, see this article called "33 Child Stars Who Turned Out OK" (it's obvious which urban myth they are aiming to deflate) http://www.newser.com/story/158537/33-child-stars-who-turned-out-ok.html

Now think of all the people who've gone off the rails without the help of child stardom ...

Yes, the gigs will put pressure on the child - but so does school bullying, dangerous neighbourhoods, neurotic teachers and parents who assault, neglect, undermine, spend all their money on booze or gambling etc etc etc

The media gives people a skewed negative slant of reality - since we are avid watchers of train wrecks. It's especially juicy and newsworthy when the big fish flounder. Life has long been very much more positive than the media would have us believe.
 
In the case of Titchy The Drumming Boy Wonder all we have here is a rather tawdry scenario where his parents have cashed-in on people's tendency to fawn over small blonde white children in order to score some backstage passes and a couple of free holidays.

so basically you're saying the parents a) made money off the media (which for all we know could be going directly into a fund for the child) and b) got to visit japan with their son.

also agree with anon, having had direct experience of "neurotic teachers" etc. this childs parents seem to love him (maybe too much, maybe he will develop only child syndrome like kids in china) but at least they seem to be feeding him etc!

as for the "this young child is still awful a year older" yeah, but at least he can follow the piece of music and then respond with some sort of drum pattern. i know people my age who can't do that.

i think the most important thing we can do is compare this childs performance to a child of a different race; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LkLssAvA38
 
Which begs the question why you are not publically expressing concern about all the parents who are far, far worse - molestation, bashing, neglect, spend all their money on booze or gambling etc.

Because this is a drumming website, rather than Barnardo's, Children in Need, or the RSPCC ??
 
Which begs the question why you are not publically expressing concern about all the parents who are far, far worse - molestation, bashing, neglect, spend all their money on booze or gambling etc. Millions and millions of them. That's actual abuse, not sending the little guy off to play some cool gigs. He is so much better off than many.

Good question. Firstly, this particular case is related to drumming and apart from anything else I knew that people on this forum would be able to decide via peer review whether the fuss about this kid is based on merit better than the 800K+ people on YouTube who just go "aww . . . that's cute."

Secondly whilst I absolutely decry the kind of behaviour you mention, such cases fall into two categories: the ones we know about, who if their actions are judged to be criminal then they are subject to prosecution and therefore have already been named and shamed, and the ones we don't know about - and, well, we don't know about them. Most abuse takes place behind closed doors and I have neither the authority nor the inclination to go kicking down the door of every numpty in the world who is mistreating their children. These goons, on the other hand, have proudly served their dysfunction up on the world stage and invited us to applaud their arrogance.

Thirdly, I originally posed the question about whether or not what these people are doing with their child is immoral because I don't believe they or the thousands of people cheering them on have given that question a moment's consideration. If they had been beating or molesting him then there would be no hesitation but I believe that what is happening here is not without detriment. Maybe it's not the worst thing that's ever happened to anyone, but this insidious habit that the world now has of flaunting their children like baubles is sickening: and precious few people think about the fact that the child has no say in any of this whatsoever.

You were right to point out that someone who says this kid should not be doing all this is applying their own values on to his life. But equally anyone who says that him jetting off to faraway places to entertain strangers is necessarily a cool thing is guilty of exactly the same thing. I ain't passing judgement down from the mountain or anything, I just wish people would consider the consequences of their actions more carefully.
 
Maybe it's not the worst thing that's ever happened to anyone, but this insidious habit that the world now has of flaunting their children like baubles is sickening: and precious few people think about the fact that the child has no say in any of this whatsoever.

Granted, child obsession isn't my thing either. So why the heck are we talking about this? :)
 
the very fact that you're questioning it's morality is based around the fact that you think it's immoral. because everything you've typed thus far has been written from that point of view. maybe your thread should have been titled "is a young drummer having 800k hits on youtube and playing on tv stations immoral". you've already decided that what has been done by his parents is immoral, i think the question you should be asking is: "what action should be taken against his parents?"

basically;

tumblr_mawywmWMJX1qzaxefo1_400.jpg
 
Shoot, what are you talking about? These parents hit the jackpot! Let's be honest here, adults exploit children in so many ways for better or worse. This type is mild in my eyes.

Look at the schools. Over half the money they get from the state doesn't even make it past the administration fat cats. So just to get anything done, like buying new tubas for the music room or something, they have to have fund raisers using the children. Then the parents of these children come to work selling candy bars or asking for pledges from people like myself.

Then there are the govt jerks who always use children to get their propositions and bills past. Basically, if they don't get their way, kids will suffer. That's the premise there in a nutshell.

I'm not sure about this being a question of morality, I think it's more of an ethical issue.
 
Wow. I'm totally with BTC and Squadleader on this.

I find it all very disturbing. Perhaps the most disturbing thing is the proud comment on the website that "he's never had a lesson". So get him some lessons then. We're all on the look out for for our what our children's interests and natural aptitudes might be, so that we can encourage them and nurture that aptitude, whatever it is. And we should also be aware that it might never develop beyond what it is now, or they might just lose interest.

Youtube is awash with videos of very young kids doing some pretty impressive stuff (for their age) on the drums. I don't see this kid as one of the best - far from it.

I just have no idea what his parents are about - they have a child who has shown some natural aptitude for something and their minds immediately turn to websites, blogs, promo pics and tv appearances. Get the kid some lessons if you really want to do something that will benefit him in the long term.

I'm just sitting here despairing at the X-Factor generation who don't believe anything has any value unless it's done in front of the masses: celebrity as an end in itself, instead of what it should be - the by-product of achievement.
 
i'm not being funny, but i'm afraid things do have a value. it's called money. it's called whether you can do something you like doing as a living. in this case it's about drums. however , he isn't doing it as a living, and that's the whole fckng point...

he isn't threading shirts together for Nike. he isn't catching tuna with a fishing rod. if this can be deemed as abuse (which it can't, it would be exploitation) then you must have some sort of mental defect. i could tell you what abuse of children is, because i know first hand. and this simply isn't.

people like to use words without actually having any idea what the definition of said word is. which is why arguments on the internet happen, because people use words selfishly with out restraint or any clue as to what they actually mean in the first place.

basically when it comes down to it i find this thread funny not because of the responses given by some people, but simply because i disagree fundamentally. i don't think it is "immoral" at all.

about the youtube video/nbc/etc: it's a kid doing something he likes, when he wants to. it even says on the website "Action Jackson sometimes plays drums full on, sometimes he doesn't touch drums for weeks". This alone gives the impression that he can do whatever he wants to do!

It doesn't say "Action Jackson takes part in forced activities when he doesn't want to".
It appears he has the free will to play drums, which also means i have the free will to say anything i want. until i get banned, like MFB or someone.

If you actually thought that this was abuse or exploitation of a child, then I would have hoped you wouldn't have made this thread. I would have hoped you would have phoned the authorities and got them to go get the child out of the situation!

mongoloids.
 
Wow. I'm totally with BTC and Squadleader on this.

I find it all very disturbing. Perhaps the most disturbing thing is the proud comment on the website that "he's never had a lesson". So get him some lessons then. We're all on the look out for for our what our children's interests and natural aptitudes might be, so that we can encourage them and nurture that aptitude, whatever it is. And we should also be aware that it might never develop beyond what it is now, or they might just lose interest.

Youtube is awash with videos of very young kids doing some pretty impressive stuff (for their age) on the drums. I don't see this kid as one of the best - far from it.

I just have no idea what his parents are about - they have a child who has shown some natural aptitude for something and their minds immediately turn to websites, blogs, promo pics and tv appearances. Get the kid some lessons if you really want to do something that will benefit him in the long term.

I'm just sitting here despairing at the X-Factor generation who don't believe anything has any value unless it's done in front of the masses: celebrity as an end in itself, instead of what it should be - the by-product of achievement.

Correct.

Let the kid play drums but all means.

Let him do lessons, play on Youtube, do tours, whatever.

But give him some balance.....let him also learn a basic education so that he's equipped to handle life when the arse falls out of things.

As things stand at the moment...he's just basically a performing chimp
 
i'm not being funny, but i'm afraid things do have a value. it's called money. it's called whether you can do something you like doing as a living. in this case it's about drums. however , he isn't doing it as a living, and that's the whole fckng point...

he isn't threading shirts together for Nike. he isn't catching tuna with a fishing rod. if this can be deemed as abuse (which it can't, it would be exploitation) then you must have some sort of mental defect. i could tell you what abuse of children is, because i know first hand. and this simply isn't.

people like to use words without actually having any idea what the definition of said word is. which is why arguments on the internet happen, because people use words selfishly with out restraint or any clue as to what they actually mean in the first place.

basically when it comes down to it i find this thread funny not because of the responses given by some people, but simply because i disagree fundamentally. i don't think it is "immoral" at all.

about the youtube video/nbc/etc: it's a kid doing something he likes, when he wants to. it even says on the website "Action Jackson sometimes plays drums full on, sometimes he doesn't touch drums for weeks". This alone gives the impression that he can do whatever he wants to do!

It doesn't say "Action Jackson takes part in forced activities when he doesn't want to".
It appears he has the free will to play drums, which also means i have the free will to say anything i want. until i get banned, like MFB or someone.

If you actually thought that this was abuse or exploitation of a child, then I would have hoped you wouldn't have made this thread. I would have hoped you would have phoned the authorities and got them to go get the child out of the situation!

mongoloids.

With respect of course.

I'm not talking of sexual or physical abuse...I'm talking of the abuse of power, of the parents, to the long term detriment of a child. And it is abuse. Sorry...it just is.

He should be in school, with kids his own age, learning his sums, his spelling, and generally what's right and what's wrong....and somewhere along the line, perhaps learning about music too...hey, how about that. You can learn how to read, write, and play music in school too.....might be useful...

What he shouldn't be doing is pissing about all the times on a musical instrument which a) he may not be particularly good at, b) he may find he's not got the potential to master and c) he may not enjoy in later life when things become a touch harder.

Repeat what I've said before...just my opinion based on my perception of what good parenting is which, I am at pains to stress, is not necessarily the same as what good parenting is from other parents' perspective.
 
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Yes but what I'm saying is
you literally cannot say that it is abuse of a child.

"Child maltreatment, sometimes referred to as child abuse and neglect, includes all forms of physical and emotional ill-treatment, sexual abuse, neglect, and exploitation that results in actual or potential harm to the child’s health, development or dignity. Within this broad definition, five subtypes can be distinguished – physical abuse; sexual abuse; neglect and negligent treatment; emotional abuse; and exploitation."

you can't reliably say there is any "abuse" going on, because you have no idea about the situation. all you have seen is a child playing drums. you don't know anything else about him. my mum used to be the departmental head of a social workers in belfast btw, incase that has any relevance. which it doesn't, because even i have no idea what is going on in the situation. just like you don't. just like i don't. just like no one knows. just like this thread will go round in circle after circle if we talk about "abuse".

What I don't understand is, if you truly believe there is an element of abuse, why you (i'm guessing?) haven't alerted anybody, even youtube? that's the first thing i would have done instantly. however there's a reason i didn't. because from the evidence available it simply isn't.

What I have just done is to c&p this thread to the parents (owners of the youtube account), maybe they'll come and answer directly.
 
Granted, child obsession isn't my thing either. So why the heck are we talking about this? :)

Because I value your input. I'm glad that there's a small corner of the internet where one can debate things without issuing death-threats; we may not see eye-to-eye completely here but it's a pleasure for me to chat to you and others.

the very fact that you're questioning it's morality is based around the fact that you think it's immoral. because everything you've typed thus far has been written from that point of view.

Well . . . yeah. To be fair, I did pose it as an open question rather than a statement of truth.

Shoot, what are you talking about? These parents hit the jackpot!

Exactly. It's great to be them, isn't it?

Perhaps the most disturbing thing is the proud comment on the website that "he's never had a lesson". [. . .] they have a child who has shown some natural aptitude for something and their minds immediately turn to websites, blogs, promo pics and tv appearances. [. . .] I'm just sitting here despairing at the X-Factor generation who don't believe anything has any value unless it's done in front of the masses: celebrity as an end in itself, instead of what it should be - the by-product of achievement.

And it's this very sense of entitlement that leaves so many people unhappy once they're past the age of being considered cute enough to care about. So many kids are sold a story that all they have to do is Be Themselves and Believe In Their Dreams and then the world will just magically fall into their laps without them ever having to actually do anything. So guess what? When the overwhelming majority of these about-average people don't become rock-stars or even particularly productive on a local-to-home scale they understandably develop all manner of depressive illnesses. Check out the sky-rocketing number of global prescriptions for antidepressants if anyone doesn't think this problem is real.

i could tell you what abuse of children is, because i know first hand. and this simply isn't. [. . .] people like to use words without actually having any idea what the definition of said word is. which is why arguments on the internet happen, because people use words selfishly with out restraint or any clue as to what they actually mean in the first place.

Sorry if this thread has touched a nerve, but to be fair I haven't claimed a monopoly on the truth of abusive relationships and by extension your personal experience has no more bearing on this discussion than anyone else's. I think SquadLeader's description of "abuse" was in no way incongruous: just because someone hasn't been raped on stabbed it doesn't mean they cannot be described as abused. Surely there are shades of grey [if you'll pardon the expression]?
 
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