Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I think that a true great would have been able to bridge both worlds, and that would have abeen a god send for jazz in the '80s.
Well you know Ken, unlike you I wasn't around then, but wouldn't that person have been Pat Metheny had not Smooth Jazz showed up?

After all here was a guy with incredible crossover potential/the Lyle Mays recordings/ and was just as comfortable and real with jazz puritans like Bill Stewart, Ornette Coleman and many others. Thing is, I don't think Metheny's recordings have ever done him justice. I once heard him live and I thought he was going to tear my head off.

When Metheny made those statements a while back, I completely agreed with him. AND I could also understand how in his eyes he had something deprived him that in his eyes should have belonged to him. IMO this made him the most likely of all the big names to go after G in such a big and public way, although everybody knows that most jazz musicians had been saying the same things about him privately and in small public venues for years.

And yeah Polly, I do think he probably has regrets, although I don't see him giving back any of the money. And to be fair, making at least good money has been an unfair rap on G the overall guy. After all, Miles Davis and others went after that money themselves at various times during their careers. But it was more like a comparison between say Sanborn and G, where Sanborn/who is cool with the jazz community/ makes a quarter of million dollars most years doing quality work, whereas G squeezed into a jumpsuit and made a fool of himself for the 20 million, when that same very comfortable Sanborn money was also available to him without all the spiritual consequences of taking that final step. I think jazz musicians are cool with making a good wage, but selling out is a different ballgame.

How could you not have regrets about your status with the jazz crowd when you were once one of the main guys on a very different path? Now those same people see him as Satan incarnate. He is never invited to jazz events and is entirely blocked out by what is left of that community. Entirely true or not, he's seen as the sell out who killed what was left of any real jazz market once and for all. There is even a famous Far Side cartoon that portrays Charlie Parker's life in hell, locked in a recording studio, with Satan playing an endless stream of Kenny G records.

How could he like that?

I've been witness to the jazz life since the day I was born and it's something I'm proud of. Although I love other genres too, I feel the jazz and I'm proud of my heritage. I know there are a lot of people on forums who say I bring up my pedigree with all this too much, and I always answer that people who make this criticism are mostly people who don't have it. It's like this secret handshake or some club that you join for life. I think it just takes a whole lot to walk away from that, and when you do there are consequences.

After all, what's the use of all that other stuff if you don't have the respect of the people you used to care about the most?

I don't think that anyone if given the opportunity would know for sure what they would do if shown the same door G walked through.

It must have been tough for him. At least I hope it was. But he still did it, and I would like to think there's still enough regret left for laughs all the way to the bank not to apply.
 
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Well you know Ken, unlike you I wasn't around then, but wouldn't that person have been Pat Metheny had not Smooth Jazz showed up?

After all here was a guy with incredible crossover potential/the Lyle Mays recordings/ and was just as comfortable and real with jazz puritans like Bill Stewart, Ornette Coleman and many others. Thing is, I don't think Metheny's recordings have ever done him justice. I once heard him live and I thought he was going to tear my head of.


Part of the problem may be that people see Kenny G as a crossover artist and I am not sure that is the case. I haven't listened to his total discography to come up with an opinion. Pat is a crossover artist. In the late 1970s, Metheny was a guy that young people talked about in the same breadth as Dicky Betts or Peter Frampton. There are so many great crossover artists and even drummers like Lenny White and Steve Gadd, so to think that anyone is actually deprived of anything may be showing just how spoiled rotten we can be.:)

There is a tradition in American commercial music of giving people exactly what they want to hear. One could argue that it is the artist's role to create music the challenges their audience. But one has to be realistic about the fact the most listeners are not listening attentively to the music. It is background while driving, working, partying, eating or relaxing, etc. Rock and hip-hop have always exploited that. Also no matter how loyal a 16 year old is to an artist, that loyalty dissipates after marriage and children. People have other priorities.

Whether of not the 1980s were a low point in music (exemplified by Kenny G. :p) there were major differences among mainstream listeners. In the 1970s, people would go to concerts like Yes, The Dead or The Allmans and expect the band to jam. By the late 1970s, bands like Rush, Styx, Journey or Boston would come out and perform letter perfect renditions of their album cuts, and that is what people wanted to hear. They all had great singers. The audience cared less for improvisation and they wanted songs they could sing along too. That's really what rock music is about. I like that you can go to a Pearl Jam show and everyone knows the words. But when that is all that the audience wants, that really paves a difficult road for instrumental music. I would suggest that the preference for letter perfect renditions and sing along songs have been as serious impediment to jazz. It's a different model that blends aspect of classical and folk culture. and perhaps the legacy of The Beatles and progressive rock.

Speaking of crossovers and classical models, the other crossover artist of the 1980s was Wynton; that's a different story. But it still outlines this changing perspective of American music.
 
Matt, ff The G was once a jazz up-and-comer I assume he would have been right in key at the time. I wonder what prompted him to play sharp, as Pat M notes? Is there some allure to the average ear?

All this is conjuring up images of Faust :) What you say about G Man being ostracised makes perfect sense but he would enjoy good relations with his band members so he'd at least have some peer connections.

A red jumpsuit seems a bit over the top, though :) Wearing gear like that was more Freddie Mercury's caper; I saw Freddie perform in a white jump suit in the 70s. But Freddie still had cred. Now I'm thinking of Sun Ra and his wild getups. He had cred too. Of course G and Sun Ra's music is on, um, different planets :)

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Actually I've not seen a pic or vid of Kenny where he's wearing a jumpsuit. He might have gotten over that phase fast?

I can understand the temptation (seeking fortune, not the jumpsuit) but what I don't get is that there's no sign that he's making cool music on the side (home tapes?). The impression I have is he's now more into family, golf, flying planes and cutting business deals, as though music was once a soulful activity for him but at some point his passion cooled.

Ken, yes, listening habits are changing - because people are now more time poor. Once they'd be listening to music as a focused activity but now listening is multi-tasked - while driving, doing chores, dancing, studying ... incidental music on TV. I expect fewer people have developed "listening chops" now than in the 70s. They don't want music that challenges; the music now needs a function. Maybe that will change but I can't imagine what could happen to make that change.
 
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Doctor, the term "music-like product" cracked me up too. We could open up a whole new can of worms. Never mind the "is it jazz?" question ... is it real music? Maybe good for another dozen or so pages? :)

Don't get me started..............................I just might! ;-}

I am always teazing my kids about this gooey cheese-like substance they sell everywhere in the states these days. It doesn't need to be heated - it flows at room temperature. We have been wondering for years if it is really even food at all, or perhaps even a metamorphisized glue-like substance with flavoring and color added to it. We all call it an "arificial cheese-like product".

Now adding that same analogy to music, holy God, I believe we have opened a new can entirely!
 
Don't get me started..............................I just might! ;-}

I am always teazing my kids about this gooey cheese-like substance they sell everywhere in the states these days. It doesn't need to be heated - it flows at room temperature. We have been wondering for years if it is really even food at all, or perhaps even a metamorphisized glue-like substance with flavoring and color added to it. We all call it an "arificial cheese-like product".

Now adding that same analogy to music, holy God, I believe we have opened a new can entirely!

I don't like the direction you're going.....This will force people(me) to take a hard look in the mirror.

Confession: I was on the Pearl website and happened upon a video of Lady Ga Ga live at some big festival........and.........I liked it. I didn't want to like it, but I couldn't help it. The crowd going crazy, the energy of the performance......I hate myself......I think about 90% of the music was pre-recorded, but there is something there. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like some nasty drug I keep going back to.

What does this say about me?......I'm very troubled.
 
I don't like the direction you're going.....This will force people(me) to take a hard look in the mirror.

Confession: I was on the Pearl website and happened upon a video of Lady Ga Ga live at some big festival........and.........I liked it. I didn't want to like it, but I couldn't help it. The crowd going crazy, the energy of the performance......I hate myself......I think about 90% of the music was pre-recorded, but there is something there. I can't put my finger on it, but it's like some nasty drug I keep going back to.

What does this say about me?......I'm very troubled.

Don't feel bad - she is actually on of the few pop idols that came up as a musician and not a karaoke superstar through American Idol. She even writes her own stuff, albeit the know-it-all producers strip it of it's humanity with programmed drums, bass, and probably keyboards too, even though she plays keyboards.

All the others - Miley Cyrus, Brittany, Beyonce - they just splice their voices into music that was written by no telling who in the Greater Music Machine and have their perfect ingredients - a pretty face behind a catchy tune. Pop Music has finally cloned itself to the rediculousness of Nashville.
 
Don't feel bad - she is actually on of the few pop idols that came up as a musician and not a karaoke superstar through American Idol. She even writes her own stuff, albeit the know-it-all producers strip it of it's humanity with programmed drums, bass, and probably keyboards too, even though she plays keyboards.

All the others - Miley Cyrus, Brittany, Beyonce - they just splice their voices into music that was written by no telling who in the Greater Music Machine and have their perfect ingredients - a pretty face behind a catchy tune. Pop Music has finally cloned itself to the rediculousness of Nashville.

If there is a line between music and music-like products it's a blurry one. After all, GD and Bob and other musicians enjoy G Man's music (MLP?), so it's not a total blank. While the idea of MLPs amuses me, it's all ultimately music. I mean, people said that Cage and Stockhausen wasn't music either.

Ever heard Frank Zappa's Prelude to an Evening with a Sexually Aroused Gas Mask? (the version on Weasels Ripped My Flesh is less tonal still. Is it music? When I first heard that track my heart said no but my head says yes. Here's why:

Punk wasn't music. The Beatles weren't music. Benny Goodman wasn't music to some in his day. Even defining "real music" as something played with spirit and/or heart is dicey. Whose spirit or heart? If you don't relate to it you might think there's none. So I define music as anything that is presented as such. Qualitatively, I can only see two poles in music - music I love and music I don't enjoy - with most of it landing somewhere in between.

Some might see that as postmodern, but the whole point of postmodernism IMO is inclusiveness, acknowledging that there's always someone who thinks differently to you. That's why so many of us see G Man's music as uninteresting, yet he has the highest selling instrumental album of all time. I'm into music in and around the Canterbury Scene yet most people find it horrible. When your tastes are way in the margins you become pretty sensitive to the existence of minority views.
 
G was apparently a clever guy from the start. A lot of people might not know that he actually started with the 70s soul singer Barry White when he was a teenager while he was already playing serious jazz gigs in Seattle. At the same time he studied for a major in accounting at the University of Washington and graduated with a degree. Then he played some more jazz, then hooked up with Lorber. Story was he was then heard by Clive Davis when he played some instrumental version of an AABA song.

I always figured he must have been looking for the bucks all along, and never really planned a long term jazz career, or was already the kind who was going to go that pop way given the chance. Or maybe he was going to just make some money then go back to jazz, but never did. Whatever he decided sure set a lot things in motion. That's for sure.

Funny too that in his Wiki entry he now cites his main influence as pop jazz icon Grover Washington when it was seemingly Coltrane back in the day.
 
I can't help but chuckle a bit as I read this thread and then see the quote in Matts signature, ..When people complain, that means you're doing it right.
Miles Davis
....Maybe Kenny G is doing it right. Who knows what right is?? Sure are a lot of people complaining.!!!
 
I think every artist has to deal with the reality of his or her own marketability if you want to cut it as a professional musician. Duke had Strayhorn, which may have helped him to bridge the gap between his artistic ambitions and the popular world of music.

Often management will encourage artists to record music that would not have recorded otherwise, like in the case of Hello Dolly or What a Wonderful World. I think Pops knew the difference between Hello Dolly and a great jam session with Duke. I don't know, what do ya think?:p

I think knowing the difference is the issue. I know how Matt's dad feels about that. It is sad when artists are forced into the corner of producing music that they may not want to produce to make money. But it is a reality nonetheless. On the other hand, you have a host of folks who are just in it for the money. I don't see why they should be given a free pass in the name of artistic license.
 
I can't help but chuckle a bit as I read this thread and then see the quote in Matts signature, ..When people complain, that means you're doing it right.
Miles Davis
....Maybe Kenny G is doing it right. Who knows what right is?? Sure are a lot of people complaining.!!!

Miles said complain. That's not the same thing as condemn to an eternity of flesh searing hell =)
 
I think knowing the difference is the issue. I know how Matt's dad feels about that. It is sad when artists are forced into the corner of producing music that they may not want to produce to make money. But it is a reality nonetheless. On the other hand, you have a host of folks who are just in it for the money. I don't see why they should be given a free pass in the name of artistic license.

There will always be people who are just in it for the money.

There will always be people who only care about the artistic level of performance.

There will always be people who play certain music because it allows them the cash flow to play the music that they really want to play.

Even the classic composers had to write music that they were told to write by the nobility of the time. Music has worked this way since the beginning.
You have to play what the people want to hear if you want to eat well.

Some people will play the system and just make music for a bank account.
Some won't! They will only play what they want to play.
Some will walk back and forth on both sides of the line.

Why should we be angry about this?
I just accept it as a fact and I don't really think about it much.
It doesn't matter what I think anyway! Nothing will change.

Being a pro musician is no different than any other job, If you don't do certain things you will not be promoted or you will be fired.
That's just the real world as it is.
 
I still want to know why Miles told Joe Zawinul "Not to give the store away. "
 
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I still want to know why Miles told Joe Zawinul "Not to give the tore away. "

Ken, are you referring to my post # 406?

The story is that MIles told Wayne Shorter to 'not give anything away' to Zawinul/Weather Report. This is a story told by Shorter himself, and I dont have a clue why Miles said that. I assume at some level he didnt trust Zawinul's musical direction..

Guys, better just hit your practice rooms already!! ;)

I agree. This baby has been put to sleep. We can all go and have some milk now.

...
 
Ken, are you referring to my post # 406?

The story is that MIles told Wayne Shorter to 'not give anything away' to Zawinul/Weather Report. This is a story told by Shorter himself, and I don't have a clue why Miles said that. I assume at some level he didn't trust Zawinul's musical direction..



I agree. This baby has been put to sleep. We can all go and have some milk now.

...

Sorry for the typo. I thought we had moo-ved on and this topic had been milked for all it was worth.

yes, I was referring to that post, which stuck in my craw. And of course we know that food is meant for baby birdies.

I would think he trusted Joe Zawinul's musical direction as you look at who wrote a good deal of music for In a Silent Way and Bitch's Brew. I 've never heard the first WR album; but from what I've read, it's pretty straight ahead acoustic jazz ensemble work. I think Miles meant that if certain musical paths are not developed properly, they do not blaze a trail for those who come later. A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for his descendants. You also don't lock yourself in a box. There is also a responsibility to cultivate an audience. I wonder what the musical landscape of the 1960s would have been like had Miles decided to take up rock and roll, and as controversial as the Miles electric period was, look at the doors it opened musically.
 
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A musician has a sacred oath to open up doors for his predecessors.

Yes, I expect our predecessors would appreciate us opening doors for them - it's the arthritis, you see :)


You also don't lock yourself in a box. There is also a responsibility to cultivate an audience. I wonder what the musical landscape of the 1960s would have been like had Miles decided to take up rock and roll, and as controversial as the Miles electric period was, look at the doors it opened musically.

Just as that fine monument of modern music - Our Kenny - has done ... MWUU HAHAHAHA
 
Yes, I expect our predecessors would appreciate us opening doors for them - it's the arthritis, you see :)




Just as that fine monument of modern music - Our Kenny - has done ... MWUU HAHAHAHA


Can I change my answer to descendants?

Now we can get into the fine subtleties of cultivating an audience for the enjoyment of great music, as opposed to marketing. Did Kenny create anew audience or market himself to an audience of muzak listeners?
 
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