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  #1  
Old 09-15-2018, 03:27 AM
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Default Musician vs Artist

I don't like the term artist. Anymore, people who do anything creative, or niche for that matter consider themselves artists. Hell, the people at Subway are sandwich artists. Really?

I believe that artist should be left for people who create art. Sculpters, painters, sketch artists, basically physical art you can look at and touch. Not musicians.

Yes, music is art. But doesn't musician cover what we do well enough? Isn't the art a given? Must we clarify by calling ourselves artists?

People who are not artists in my opinion are actors. They get paid to pretend what someone else created. The someone else might be an artist, yet they are probably a writer.

So where do we draw the line? I would never call a golfer an athlete, isn't it sort of the same thing?
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Old 09-15-2018, 03:38 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

so you are changing the definition of the word now ?

must be a slow day in old Arkansas

artist
1
a obsolete : one skilled or versed in learned arts
b archaic : physician
c archaic : artisan 1
2
a : one who professes and practices an imaginative art
b : a person skilled in one of the fine arts
3 : a skilled performer; especially : artiste
4 : one who is adept at something con artist strikeout artist
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  #3  
Old 09-15-2018, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

... and just for good measure

fine art

ˌfīn ˈärt

noun

1.
creative art, especially visual art, whose products are to be appreciated primarily or solely for their imaginative, aesthetic, or intellectual content.

2.
an activity requiring great skill or accomplishment.
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  #4  
Old 09-15-2018, 03:41 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

ar·tiste

ärˈtēst

noun

a professional entertainer, especially a singer or dancer.
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  #5  
Old 09-15-2018, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

I don't mind the term, although to me, in a musical context, it suggests one who actually creates the art. It's also a handy term for a solo headlining performer, such as Ed Sheeran or Joe Bona... (the guy on PBS all the time.) If the person is a singer, and doesn't play instrument or (somehow) write their own songs, I'd rather they be called an artist than a musician. Or just call them a singer. For example, calling Ariana Grande a musician just sounds wrong.

I consider myself 1) a musician, who 2) plays drums. I only get called an artist by some of the companies I endorse, and since they like to use the word, I don't argue. :)

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  #6  
Old 09-15-2018, 03:57 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Not trying to change the definition, just think maybe it is over used. I agree we create art, a form of entertainment. But do we have to be referred to as an artist? I would never say I'm an artist, rather I'm a musician. That's what I'm getting at. Is the artist moniker necessary?

And yes it's slow here today. My wife and I just spent like 20 minutes watching a praying mantis and orb weaver spider fight.
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  #7  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Baseball is not a sport, it's a game. The players are not athletes, they chew tobacco and stand in a field.

But when someone is really so good at what they do, they give the impression of being at an original "apex of preeminence" (to quote Buddy Rich), then that person embodies artistic stature.
I would call that person an artist, even if they're not pushing an intellectual agenda.

A professional and an expert are also interchangeable in their respect towards presentation.
An expert is a de facto professional by means of their talent from perseverance in their training.
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  #8  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Yes musicians, singers, dancers, writers, etc all "artist". Now multimedia visual media are so powerful where it gets all your senses. Interesting too "Arts and Sciences" are together. Makes perfect sense to me.
Whenever I get take out and they ask for a name I say "Art like you hang on the wall"-just thought I'd add that useless fact. There is a lot of art in the sciences really-from the beautiful structure and function of nature to how scientist address interesting questions or problems. Before we had all the fancy programs to illustrate I would draw diagrams by hand for publications. Did olfactory pathways in lobster brain and illustrated expression of various vascular proteins in embryos. Took me forever-now minutes. It's crazy how progress has changes things so fast. I bet I spent a good ten years in a dark room-lot of art in photography back then-but there is now too. Now it's a useless "Art".
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  #9  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by WallyY View Post
Baseball is not a sport, it's a game. The players are not athletes, they chew tobacco and stand in a field.
Haha, Hopefully you're joking. Try hurling a ball at 95 mph for 50 pitches or more, or hitting said ball with a 4 inch wide wood stick for over 400 feet.
Perhaps you mean billiards are a game.

It is indeed slow on the boards today.
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  #10  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

I'm old fashioned. I prefer 'craftsman' to 'artist'.

IMO artistry without craftsmanship is pretentious.

Do a search for 'pretentious art' and judge for yourself.
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  #11  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Not trying to change the definition, just think maybe it is over used. I agree we create art, a form of entertainment. But do we have to be referred to as an artist? I would never say I'm an artist, rather I'm a musician. That's what I'm getting at. Is the artist moniker necessary?

And yes it's slow here today. My wife and I just spent like 20 minutes watching a praying mantis and orb weaver spider fight.
Maybe you’re not an artist

I know very few ... but I know hundreds of guys like myself who accompany them
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  #12  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:23 AM
WallyY WallyY is offline
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Q:
GG Allin.
Artist, musician, or dead troll?
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  #13  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:24 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
And yes it's slow here today. My wife and I just spent like 20 minutes watching a praying mantis and orb weaver spider fight.
I would've liked to have seen that. Who won?

P.S.: Musicians are artists, and pro golfers (and pro baseball players) are definitely athletes.
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
I would've liked to have seen that. Who won?

P.S.: Musicians are artists, and pro golfers (and pro baseball players) are definitely athletes.
The mantis got stuck in the web. The spider kept trying to move in from different angles but the mantis kept striking at the spider. Eventually the spider backed off and the mantis was able to free itself from the web, so I suppose the mantis won.

The web was big and intricate before the mantis tore some of it up freeing itself. Is the spider an artist?
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  #15  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
Maybe you’re not an artist

I know very few ... but I know hundreds of guys like myself who accompany them
I can accept that.

I see the term artist today as engineer was like 15 years ago. Garbage man = sanitation engineer. IT guy = internet engineer. So on and so forth.
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  #16  
Old 09-15-2018, 05:12 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Yes, music is art.
basically
1. this is food
2. food is cooked
3. I cooked it
4. don't call me a cook hippie
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  #17  
Old 09-15-2018, 05:18 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
basically
1. this is food
2. food is cooked
3. I cooked it
4. don't call me a cook hippie
Do you prefer chef?

Don't call me a hippie, cook!
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  #18  
Old 09-15-2018, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

I am a little ambivalent with this..

Like, when John Riley gives his book the title 'The Art of Bop Drumming', then i have no problem at all with that and 'Art' in this case gives 'Bop Drumming' an extra value..

But, everytime when i see a member here write about 'our art', then i think to myself 'lets act normal a little'..

John Riley speaking about 'The Art of Bop Drumming', to me just feels very different compared to a member here speaking about 'our art' when referring to a drumcover-video or a wedding band gig or whatever..

Maybe makes sense, maybe not..
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  #19  
Old 09-15-2018, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post

But, every time when i see a member here write about 'our art', then i think to myself 'lets act normal a little'..

A member here speaking about 'our art' when referring to a drum cover-video or a wedding band gig or whatever..

Maybe makes sense, maybe not..
LOL yeah, I think of artists as a singer songwriters. Being a drummer is being a musician for sure but thinking of your self as an artist might be a stretch.

Maybe so at the first tier level.
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  #20  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

I think the term artist...that's for others to say, or not. I don't refer to myself as an artist, it just sounds pretentious to me. But hey if someone wants to call me an artist, OK I'll take it. Why not? Maybe we earned it.

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.
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  #21  
Old 09-15-2018, 08:54 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

If i push a paint brush around am i an Artist or a Paint Brush Pusher? Musician ,Artist.. can't see what's odd about it. Sounds like a Wrestling Match , Musician versus Artist. Pablo Picasso versus Mozart. I painted this table top, is it Art or Decoration? Painted by a Musician or Artist or Decorator.?
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  #22  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:18 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Similar to Larry, I'm not a fan when drummers refer to themselves as an artist.

It's pretentious and a half in most contexts. I cringe sometimes when that happens.

If someone describes someone else as an artist, fair enough.
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  #23  
Old 09-15-2018, 02:27 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
so you are changing the definition of the word now ?

must be a slow day in old Arkansas

artist
1
a obsolete : one skilled or versed in learned arts
b archaic : physician
c archaic : artisan 1
2
a : one who professes and practices an imaginative art
b : a person skilled in one of the fine arts
3 : a skilled performer; especially : artiste
4 : one who is adept at something con artist strikeout artist
Tony, I like the concise style of your reply which straight away points this thread in the right direction I think.

Reading the definition I think it's clear that by nature the term artist can be quite far reaching and open to ineterpretation which makes sense. After all, if art is subjective, then so is the question of who is an artist and who is not.

I take your reply to mean that we should remain open-minded about it and not unduly seek to limit the use of the term.

At the same time, I note in one of your following posts that you refer to yourself as someone who accompanies artists rather than claiming to be one yourself. This suggests that not only do you avoid using the term artist too loosely, but that in fact you are fairly selective in it's application.

After all, let's look at the most pertinent parts of the definition that you provided:

"professes and practices an imaginative art"
"person skilled in one of the fine arts"
"a skilled performer"

Now, I have a fairly good idea about your capabilities as a musician which are more than respectable to say the least. And I know that you've had success in "professing" to students.

If, after attaining such a level of mastery in your chosen field, you still do not apply the term artist even to yourself then this effectively supports the OP's suggestion that the term should be used with more retraint than it often is.

After all, if you are not an artist despite what you can express musically, then I sure as hell ain't! (nor would most drummers qualify for that matter)

I suspect that you may in fact share the same sentiment as several other forum members in that the word "artist" is something which is bestowed upon someone by others in recognition of some artistic accomplishment instead of something that can be casually claimed by an individual in the same way as saying "I'm an office clerk".
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:32 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stand View Post
Tony, I like the concise style of your reply which straight away points this thread in the right direction I think.

Reading the definition I think it's clear that by nature the term artist can be quite far reaching and open to ineterpretation which makes sense. After all, if art is subjective, then so is the question of who is an artist and who is not.

I take your reply to mean that we should remain open-minded about it and not unduly seek to limit the use of the term.

At the same time, I note in one of your following posts that you refer to yourself as someone who accompanies artists rather than claiming to be one yourself. This suggests that not only do you avoid using the term artist too loosely, but that in fact you are fairly selective in it's application.

After all, let's look at the most pertinent parts of the definition that you provided:

"professes and practices an imaginative art"
"person skilled in one of the fine arts"
"a skilled performer"

Now, I have a fairly good idea about your capabilities as a musician which are more than respectable to say the least. And I know that you've had success in "professing" to students.

If, after attaining such a level of mastery in your chosen field, you still do not apply the term artist even to yourself then this effectively supports the OP's suggestion that the term should be used with more retraint than it often is.

After all, if you are not an artist despite what you can express musically, then I sure as hell ain't! (nor would most drummers qualify for that matter)

I suspect that you may in fact share the same sentiment as several other forum members in that the word "artist" is something which is bestowed upon someone by others in recognition of some artistic accomplishment instead of something that can be casually claimed by an individual in the same way as saying "I'm an office clerk".
I refrain from calling myself anything

that is not for me to decide

I contribute and accompany ... if a listener deems it art then so be it

my job is to subsidize ... to enhance ...

I create something ... then it's gone ... call it whatever you want because once it's gone I'm already on to the next and not concerned about labeling it anything
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2018, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Well there is the definition of words then how we use them. Art can be used as a noun, adjective, or adverb. My middle daughter is "an artist" pretty good one too-I think she's going to make a go of it. She's really talented-can paint or draw anything-but she likes "modern art" which many people don't appreciate or "get" (a lot like jazz, or hip hop/rap). There is "artistry" in her art-it's really delicate stuff more like sculpture. And many people appreciate her work as "Art" she is winning awards and getting recognized in artsy media outlets. So you can be a musician and there is artistry in how you play but you may be playing a song with little art. Same token you could be playing a song with a lot of art in it-yet you may suck lacking artistry having not mastered your art. Many famous scientific research efforts are described in terms as "art" or "elegance" so the idea is applied in many ways in our culture. So Tony may not prefer to label himself as an "artist" but I would. I also think it's important to consider the "action" of it. Like I use to be a "scientist" , a "researcher" , an "educator", but I don't do none that now so I can hardly call myself any of them. Like I use to juggle years ago-but I don't think I can juggle now-nor would I still call myself a juggler. That should confuse and cloud things well.
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  #26  
Old 09-15-2018, 05:10 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Stand View Post
After all, if art is subjective, then so is the question of who is an artist and who is not.
People love musing over that word. It's not subjective. If someone is a creative worker or performer in an arts field, they're an artist, because that's what the words mean. Art is the crap they make. No need at all to get mysterious about it.

As for it being pretentious, as others have said-- I dunno man, sounds like a personal problem. If people can't even say the name of the field they're obviously in. To me it just speaks to a hobbyist mentality. Nobody serious is that hostile towards/embarrassed about their own work. Best to get over that if anyone is ambitious at all about their playing.

Like, MIP, you also started the ARE WE JUST SCREWING AROUND? DO WE SUCK? thread. Is there something you want to tell us about these feelings of self-loathing surrounding this activity to which you apparently dedicate quite a large amount of time?
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Old 09-15-2018, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

I don't refer to myself as an artist because I feel it is a cheap form of puffery. I wouldn't feel humble if I said that about myself. I'd feel a little disingenuous TBH. Deep down I feel like more like a craftsman than an artist.

It turns me right off when others attempt to elevate themselves by telling me how great they are at this or that, so I couldn't possibly. If I call myself an artist, to me that's like walking around telling people how great I am. Artist implies a certain level of mastery. So again, I allow others to label things however they want. I honestly feel it's just not my place to define myself to people. I feel it's the people's prerogative if they want to label me.

Not only that, but wise men say that it's best not to label oneself. That constricts possibilities. I am not just a drummer, I am not just an electrician, I am not just a father...I am all of those things and more.

Drumming isn't me, it's something I do. Big difference. Don't identify yourself with a label, be label-less is what I have been learning.
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  #28  
Old 09-15-2018, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
..Like, MIP, you also started the ARE WE JUST SCREWING AROUND? DO WE SUCK? thread. Is there something you want to tell us about these feelings of self-loathing surrounding this activity to which you apparently dedicate quite a large amount of time?..

Threads are like tv-channels..

Not a fan of something..?

Then you can skip and move on to something that suits your taste better..

I actually like when people sometimes also ask a question that goes maybe a little more far or abstract than 'what is the best wood' or 'how to play this beat'..

Nothing wrong with a thread like this..
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Like, MIP, you also started the ARE WE JUST SCREWING AROUND? DO WE SUCK? thread. Is there something you want to tell us about these feelings of self-loathing surrounding this activity to which you apparently dedicate quite a large amount of time?
Sorry if the way I think offends you. Do you need a hug, or a trophy perhaps for showing up?

I am not self loathing, quite happy actually. I just see people taking themselves way too seriously these days. Everyone wants to be somenoe special. Guess what, we're not. Until there is someone who requires no sleep, food, or pooping we are all the same, just doing different things.

Like Tony and Larry said, we don't need labels.
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  #30  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Deep down I feel like more like a craftsman than an artist.
Well, it's all about context. A craftsman is also an artist, and an artist is a craftsman, and there are contexts where you say one or the other. It's not a big deal.
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  #31  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Sorry if the way I think offends you.
Who's offended?

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Nothing wrong with a thread like this..
It's like the old GROOVE OR CHOPS bullcrap. It's endlessly fascinating to some people.
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  #32  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Who's offended?



It's like the old GROOVE OR CHOPS bullcrap. It's endlessly fascinating to some people.
Well you seem taken aback by it. Don't like it, oh well. Not everyone thinks the same.
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  #33  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post

Like Tony and Larry said, we don't need labels.
I said I don't label myself ... I do consider many people who I work with artists

I'm also not offended if some one refers to me as an artist ... to me it is a compliment
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  #34  
Old 09-15-2018, 07:41 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
I said I don't label myself ... I do consider many people who I work with artists

I'm also not offended if some one refers to me as an artist ... to me it is a compliment
Oh sorry, I meant label ourselves. I agree with what you are saying.
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

The broad definition says that anything is art if someone says it's art.

I generally think of art and music as separate but there are quite a few musicians that obviously cross over, especially at the top tier.

On the her hand, there are also a lot of questionable folks in that top tier mix so......?
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Old 09-15-2018, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I

Not only that, but wise men say that it's best not to label oneself. That constricts possibilities. I am not just a drummer, I am not just an electrician, I am not just a father...I am all of those things and more.

Drumming isn't me, it's something I do. Big difference. Don't identify yourself with a label, be label-less is what I have been learning.
Bingo!

(a quick search for an equivalent word with 20 characters was fruitless)
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

"Visual art is how we decorate space - Musical art is how we decorate time."

-Paraphrased from some famous quote.
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:34 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
People who are not artists in my opinion are actors. They get paid to pretend what someone else created.
Wow. Finally. Someone who agrees with me. I’m gonna have to visit Arkansas sometime.

Quote:
So where do we draw the line?
If a work moves me emotionally, I consider that work a “piece of art”. Music, photo, painting, sculpture, etc.

Where this criteria gets challenged is with abstract art. There’s no conceptual mooring (e.g., portrait, landscape, lyrics, etc.) One of my favorite abstract artists pretty much defined the genre: Wassily Kandinsky.

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Old 09-17-2018, 03:50 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

I dunno. The word artist doesn't automatically have a pretentious connotation to me. If you make art, you're an artist. It's just what you do. I get that there are pretentious people who make claims about themselves being artists and you want to throw up. But that's more a reflection of those people than the word itself.

I've spent way over 10,000 hours learning to play drum set over a period of 35+ years. How much more accomplished do I have to get before I can stop feeling guilty when someone calls me an artist?
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Old 09-17-2018, 03:57 AM
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Default Re: Musician vs Artist

Way too much thinking going on here for my taste...

Worry about being a great drummer first then worry about what people say about you.

If I'd asked Joe Morello whether he was an artist or musician he would have laughed in my face. He'd probably have answered: "Swing first and then we'll talk".

Seriously, no drummer that any of us admire ever gave a moment's thought to this.
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