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  #41  
Old 09-13-2018, 04:33 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

If you practice, and play at speeds near your top where you stay relaxed the "moeller" is something that happens on it's own. I have never WORKED on it.

Push pull and using your fingers will help also.

As a guy who plays blastbeats at lets say 240bpm means each hand is doing 1/8 notes which means 16ths at lets say 120.

They key to this as stated is staying relaxed. I practice 16th notes on a pad for looooong extended periods of time. You have to be able to do it for a few minutes if you want to be confident, play it clean.

If it is too hard to play, you are playing it too fast. Set a metronome to a speed you can do it for lets say 3 minutes.. It may be 60 BPM. That is totally fine. now add 1 BPM every week. At this rate you can get there in a year. The first few weeks you will progress really fast. the last few it gets tough.

It is only a combination of muscle memory and staying relaxed to play fast. As soon as you try to hit too hard, play faster than your muscles are used to you tense up, and its game over. EVERY TIME. by playing slower and relaxed you get used to it and don't tense up.


practicing singles at 200-210 is how I get better playing at 240-250.

for most people who play to fast they are gripping the sticks too tight killing the rebound, using the wrong sticks for them, and having technique issues as well.
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  #42  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Ok, sorry, lol..

If we consider that a fast one-handed 16th hi-hat pattern (if you refer for example to 'Use Me'), then i said nothing at all in this thread..

But, if we speak tempo-wise for example about Michael McDonald with 'I Keep Forgetting', and up, then my opinion stays..

Will (low) Moeller always create the best sounding fast 16th hi-hat groove ever in every possible song..? No, ofcourse not, but with many songs of that tempo (and up), (low) Moeller stays a very valid option and the statement that (low) Moeller never is appropriate still makes no sense..
I'm not sure what speed has to do with it specifically. The faster you go, the less applicable any sort of whip motion is. Slower tempos where you actually could use a whip motion, usually you wouldn't unless you specifically wanted an off-kilter or every other accent kinda sound. And that's a very specific situation, not really what we're discussing here.

Again, and for all, "moeller" is by far the least efficient way to approach up-tempo one handed work. It's very useful in that context for accents and moving around the kit, but strictly speaking for this context of this thread, there's much better techniques to get you to a useable place.
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  #43  
Old 09-13-2018, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

I think your both right it's a tie. Watch this video he starts like a blaster with just fingers-loose easy-he can go all day. Well apparently not later you see the wrist and some whip get in (yeah he's whipping it good!)-so it does conserve some energy. My right hand whips-but my left wrist is stiff and I use more fingers and hand so I do both. So my right brain is stiff with fingers and my left brain is whipping it LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=jA3d-BAAm6k
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  #44  
Old 09-14-2018, 12:40 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

So when I say whip motion, that means as in visualizing a bull-whip, you whip back past the balance point and then generate speed and power by suddenly pulling in the other direction. The stick/bullwhip actually drags behind the motion.

Not the same thing as a snap, which is mostly what's being utilized in the last video posted. In that video you're right in that he is doing some kind of rolled wrist thing moving to the side but that's not correct Moeller form, it's just a sort of hybrid technique he's using to get that sound at that tempo; to me it's closer to push/pull than anything considered Moeller, more like a pumping motion with lots of finger-snap than whip. Anyway, a snap is going to be more defined by the fact that there's no arc creating the whip effect. It's mostly finger control and rebound sometimes more wrist oriented at certain tempo ranges. Important part being your fingers and hand generate most of the force rather than a whip arc.

Part of what causes the confusion is that often we use whip/moeller strokes in order to get the bounces from our whip down, quite often once that bounce has happened, we need to snap the stick back down; but the key thing to remember in this is that the Moeller stroke was only the first one... The second one is a different technique using finger control. So that scenario is a whip followed by a snap.

People incorrectly correlate that combination with the term Moeller and then proceed to lump together anything that uses bounce momentum in the same group. When we play, we should be constantly changing the approach depending on any number of factors.
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  #45  
Old 09-14-2018, 01:25 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..Not the same thing as a snap, which is mostly what's being utilized in the last video posted. In that video you're right in that he is doing some kind of rolled wrist thing moving to the side but that's not correct Moeller form, it's just a sort of hybrid technique he's using to get that sound at that tempo; to me it's closer to push/pull than anything considered that combination with the term Moeller..

This sort of quasi-expert behaviour is what i was referring to with the quote from T. Weaves..

For some reason you keep having the idea that your definition of a Moeller-stroke is the only one that deserves to be called Moeller and that everyone else is not knowing what they are speaking about..

Here is a clinic from Jojo Mayer, where untill 4.20 he speaks about Moeller..And i mean Moeller, Moeller, Moeller..lol..Thats what he speaks about 4.20 minutes, about Moeller..

Now, when you listen from lets say 1.40, then you hear him say that there are 'many different ways of Moeller'..At like 2.21 you will hear him say that the thing that you say is not Moeller, he calls the 'Moeller pumping motion'..

I repeat..: the Moeller pumping motion..

I think would be more wise to stop a little with trying to teach everyone here a lesson that basically you are not understanding yourself, because at one moment things are just getting a little foolish..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_bajxi3Ww
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  #46  
Old 09-14-2018, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
This sort of quasi-expert behaviour is what i was referring to with the quote from T. Weaves..

For some reason you keep having the idea that your definition of a Moeller-stroke is the only one that deserves to be called Moeller and that everyone else is not knowing what they are speaking about..

Here is a clinic from Jojo Mayer, where untill 4.20 he speaks about Moeller..And i mean Moeller, Moeller, Moeller..lol..Thats what he speaks about 4.20 minutes, about Moeller..

Now, when you listen from lets say 1.40, then you hear him say that there are 'many different ways of Moeller'..At like 2.21 you will hear him say that the thing that you say is not Moeller, he calls the 'Moeller pumping motion'..

I repeat..: the Moeller pumping motion..

I think would be more wise to stop a little with trying to teach everyone here a lesson that basically you are not understanding yourself, because at one moment things are just getting a little foolish..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-_bajxi3Ww
Sorry dude, no. Not even close. My entire point is that there's tons of confusion on the issue and that's caused mostly by everyone using different definitions. When you look at the people who have really studied and broken down these base movements, the things that come to the forefront are what I'm describing. One of the few consistent things about the technique is the description of whip-motion in order to gain momentum and power; which is not the goal of what is being discussed/asked about in this thread.

Hell, even the wiki article crowd-source by default states categorically there's not an official definition to be found anywhere, and you can easily find "experts" who say opposite things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moeller_method

So I ask again. How is it helpful to go around telling drummers asking for help that they should work on a poorly defined technique that's commonly defined as an arcing whip motion for something where small controlled movements are the best route? Why can't we just call the strokes what they are in terms of the movements and focus?

It's like literally every post you make, you're making my points for me and demonstrating how this is an issue as I'm saying. In no way am I claiming to be an expert, I'm saying we need to stop using wrong or ill defined terminology, especially where it doesn't typically apply anyway, like this thread.
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  #47  
Old 09-14-2018, 04:10 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..When you look at the people who have really studied and broken down these base movements, the things that come to the forefront are what I'm describing..

I agree that Jojo Mayer is not fitting in that category of people..lollllllll

Watso, like i said in one of my previous replies, i like to give credit to people..And, without a joke, i havent laughed a lot today, but you made me laugh a lot now and thats also worth something..

Edit. I also wrote an explanation to your question but i decided to remove that, since i am kinda finished with the discussion..lol..
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  #48  
Old 09-14-2018, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
I agree that Jojo Mayer is not fitting in that category of people..lollllllll
Sure he does. Jojo has studied technique a fair amount you might say. Thing is, not all pump-type motions used in drumming are "moeller", and not everyone will even use that term. Jojo will use both techniques we're talking about here very fluently; and even so, you'll find all kinds of different definitions for both all over the internet and across tons of different "experts".

"Chapin asserts in his video that the technique does not rely on the rebound - that the drummer must master the hand motion while playing each note as an actual stroke, while Dave Weckl in another video says that it does rely on the rebound."

It's confusing, and hard to describe these things over the internet or even in video. Moeller method was originally developed for snare drumming, and absolutely has a huge number of uses in our playing. It's a great thing to learn, but for playing strings of more even notes on a high hat, usually you're going to try and minimize any whipping when you aren't purposely accenting. Obviously, I think it's distracting when several people respond with just "learn moeller" any time a technique question is posed. If we're trying to help, we can do better.

Quote:
Edit. I also wrote an explanation to your question but i decided to remove that, since i am kinda finished with the discussion..lol..
Works for me. We could literally go back and forth posting "expert" examples that conflict with each other on these brand name technique discussions. I absolutely think it would pay to be more descriptive towards goals like this.
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  #49  
Old 09-14-2018, 07:40 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..Works for me. We could literally go back and forth posting "expert" examples that conflict with each other on these brand name technique discussions..

True..

But, to just try to get things a little clear, instead of finishing the discussion on a joking/sarcastic note, i would like to ask this..

The thread was started (9,5 years ago..lol) about fast one-handed 16th hi-hat patterns, specifically regarding this..:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
..comfortably at 100 bpm and over..

Then your Moeller-theory is this..:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..I'm not sure what speed has to do with it specifically. The faster you go, the less applicable any sort of whip motion is..

My theory is that low-Moeller is a pretty 'small-controlled-movement', which for fast one-handed 16th patterns can be a valid option..

When playing 1 low-Moeller stroke that generates 3 controlled bounces, basically someone physically only has to play quarter-notes to generate a 16th one-handed groove..

At 100 BPM and up, i consider that a possible comfortable way of playing..Not mandatory, just a option, just like push/pull can be an option..

Would you disagree with this..?

Or are we only discussing about the fact that you are not considering this 'real Moeller' and i (and many others) disagree with that..?
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  #50  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:15 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Then your Moeller-theory is this..:
Well, no. My "moeller theory" doesn't exist as I've been saying all along. I use the term "whip stroke" because "moeller" can mean too many different things and sometimes people even use to to refer to a series of strokes.

Quote:
My theory is that low-Moeller is a pretty 'small-controlled-movement', which for fast one-handed 16th patterns can be a valid option..
Right, but most of the demonstrations about Moeller by "technique-centered" guys define and display "low" moeller as being a pretty big movement. It's "low" only in relation to the mid (from the elbow) and "high" whole arm movement. And all 3 are great; but not really ideal or practical in this thread's context.

Quote:
When playing 1 low-Moeller stroke that generates 3 controlled bounces, basically someone physically only has to play quarter-notes to generate a 16th one-handed groove..
You'd have to work too hard to generate enough whip force at those speeds. You'd end up with a lazy sounding dribble kinda thing, or else you'd be working way harder to snap each one of those 3 dribbles than you'd work to just use a more efficient method for this purpose.

Quote:
At 100 BPM and up, i consider that a possible comfortable way of playing..Not mandatory, just a option, just like push/pull can be an option..
Can you use your phone to record it for me? I'd wager it's simply not as comfortable as you're thinking, or else you're not really playing what I think of as whip strokes. Fumularo, Chapin, Morello vids are great examples of what I mean when I say that. And keep in mind, the "low" moeller in the video is not really that low. The practice of generating whip force literally ties our hands to using larger movements.

Quote:
Would you disagree with this..?
Sure, you can play fast whip stroke strings if it suits your fancy. You always have all kinds of options. I have the option to play fills twice per bar or more if I like... Does that make it a good option, or make one I should advise to people looking for help with something specific and where other techniques make more sense?

Quote:
Or are we only discussing about the fact that you are not considering this 'real Moeller' and i (and many others) disagree with that..?
I don't know how many times I can state, I'm advocating we don't call anything "moeller" since it's basically a useless term that nobody can define for sure. I don't care what "real" moeller is, it doesn't matter. I know that for what's being asked about here, "just learn moeller" is not good advice that's helpful to anyone. If your goal is to play loose and relaxed, you'll end up whipping things around where it makes sense automatically. Forcing out whip strokes where it's not needed would only be an active choice for if you wanted something like a heavily accented note group kinda sound.
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  #51  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Reading the Wiki article on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moeller_method
Seems hard to come to agreement except everyone "whips it". Whip it good. Crack that snare, give the stick a flip, slap on that head, break your money bank.
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  #52  
Old 09-14-2018, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Tom Sawyer by Rush is challenging me in this regard. I can keep up, but it's enough work that it's hard to be in control and musical at the same time. 90 bpm or so IIRC.

Rock and Roll by Zeppelin is more comfortable, but still noticeable, 170 bpm 8th notes.
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  #53  
Old 09-15-2018, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
You don't have to get a lot faster. Like, a lot of Brazilian drummers have ridiculously fast right hands, and it's a very cool effect at a certain tempo range, but it doesn't keep getting cooler the faster you go. High 90s is a reasonable real-world ceiling for that kind of thing. Then if you want you can keep refining it into the 100+single digits.

You have to do it a lot. I find it helps at first to lay your index finger on top of the stick-- that controls the rebound and helps you find the right technique. The Brazilian guys use a lot of finger technique.
Will experiment with that. Honestly I only want to be able to play cleanly at 92ish, as to play along with "Kissing My Love". Don't care about anything faster than that, but 86-87 right now is kicking my butt over 15-20 minutes
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  #54  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:16 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Richard.Awesome View Post
Will experiment with that. Honestly I only want to be able to play cleanly at 92ish, as to play along with "Kissing My Love". Don't care about anything faster than that, but 86-87 right now is kicking my butt over 15-20 minutes
Hey, me too, am working on the same thing, but in reality, who is going to have to ever sustain one-handed 16ths for an entire 15-20 minutes.
I'd try to get them for sustained 5 mins, then move up to you tempo goal of 92ish.
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  #55  
Old 09-15-2018, 01:26 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Hey, me too, am working on the same thing, but in reality, who is going to have to ever sustain one-handed 16ths for an entire 15-20 minutes.
I'd try to get them for sustained 5 mins, then move up to you tempo goal of 92ish.
You've never been stuck playing some repetitive intro or first verse to a song while the singer talks to the audience for 10 minutes prior to starting the song?

Lucky!
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  #56  
Old 09-15-2018, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
You've never been stuck playing some repetitive intro or first verse to a song while the singer talks to the audience for 10 minutes prior to starting the song?

Lucky!
That’s when you swap to open-handed for a few seconds, or just do 8ths instead of 16ths for 1 beat every other measure. LOL
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  #57  
Old 09-15-2018, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
Reading the Wiki article on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moeller_method
Seems hard to come to agreement except everyone "whips it". Whip it good. Crack that snare, give the stick a flip, slap on that head, break your money bank.
Ahh, that's a good one Art. Devo was whipping it in those ole video's. LOL
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  #58  
Old 09-18-2018, 11:22 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Hey, me too, am working on the same thing, but in reality, who is going to have to ever sustain one-handed 16ths for an entire 15-20 minutes.
I'd try to get them for sustained 5 mins, then move up to you tempo goal of 92ish.
Really i'm just trying to build up my endurance that way. Riley talks about speed in Art Of Bop being playing fast but being able to maintain it as well. So maybe it's over kill, but i do feel more power in my RH these last few weeks.
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  #59  
Old 09-19-2018, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

A nice Richie Hayward groove with 16ths on closed hat and cross stick in the verses. Work your way up to this tempo over time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggls7w8FM3Q
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  #60  
Old 09-21-2018, 01:58 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

For some other inspiration check out what both Jeff and Vinnie did on that Pages album. Probably no first takes on there, but that's some hard and accurate shit right there.
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