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  #41  
Old 11-23-2009, 11:55 PM
wy yung
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by davidr View Post
The method you use to play the ride in jazz is VERY DIFFERENT to rock. It's all about the quarter note, thumb on top, opening your hand up for the lope note and snapping it closed for the quarter, as well as swinging with the elbow going side to side slightly.
Virgil always mentions that this is what Philly told him.

Great stuff here already.
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  #42  
Old 11-24-2009, 01:49 AM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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For anyone who wants to see the method I recommend, check out this video I made...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcuKQCh5qf0
Looks like a Bob Armstrong special.... :)

It's very similar to what I learned from Blackley, too.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

The udated URL for the video is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRqbRqBra_I
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:55 PM
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by sciomako View Post
Casper,

At slow tempo, I can see the hit on "2" is a wrist stroke, the hit on the skip beat is a finger stroke and the hit on "3" is an upstroke with fingers. Am I right?
John Riley told me to play it as two movements, so on 2, you push down, the stick forces the fingers out. Now, you pull it up. During the "pull", you play the skip note, and the 3 comes out as strong as 2. You can vary the intensity of the skip note.

During all there is no pressure on the index, it is just resting on the stick. I have really liked this approach, I noticed I was able to play relaxed at faster speeds.

Ari Hoenig has a totally different technique, which I will tell you about later, and there are others. One that didn't work so well was the one I invented myself a long time ago. I recommend studying this with a master, just makes life SO much easier.

Casper
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  #45  
Old 11-24-2009, 05:48 PM
curiousnomad curiousnomad is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

If you study (and watch) lots of great drummers you will see that there is not one "right way" to play jazz time. That means both physically and musically. Compare Tony and Elvin- so different in the physical approach and the end result.

One thing they all have in common is that they have come up with a physical technique that allows themselves to express their interpretation of time, flow, feel, etc. Look at videos, whether it be Max, Elvin, Tony, Roy, Jack or younger players like Blade, Harland, Bill Stewart, Rodney Green, Ari Hoenig, etc. Their time and physical appearance is all different, but it is their unique thing. Whatever they do works, because the music sounds good and they are asked to play with great musicians.

That said, there are definitely things that you can't do. Your motions should be fluid and smooth involving the wrist, arm, and fingers. There should be a fine balance in the volume of all notes played (not an equal volume). The balance varies by player. Elvin is triplet oriented with more emphasis on the up beats, the third note of the triplet, and 'floats"more. Jimmy Cobb lays into the quarter note more. They all play with a relaxed motion for the most part, whether they play behind the beat, ahead of the beat, or dead center.

By understanding the great players individual conception of time and watching them, you can find what works for you.

But as was stated before- if you are just starting the concept is very different from rock. You cannot just "muscle" the time in jazz. The time is played with an acoustic bass generally, which has a swinging flowing bass line. That is what you lock into, not a punchy, loud electric bass. Your ride cymbal feel needs to work with that.
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  #46  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:37 AM
sciomako sciomako is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan View Post
During the "pull", you play the skip note, and the 3 comes out as strong as 2.
Casper,

Two notes, the skip note and 3, are played during the "pull". The bit I'm uncertain about is what drives the hit on 3. I gave this approach a try the other day. It seems the hit on 3 was done by the combination of a drop of the wrist together with the closing of the fingers. Does it sound right?
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  #47  
Old 11-25-2009, 02:47 AM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

Im really confused by this thread. A lot of terms getting thrown out that are confusing me. I would say listen to your favorite players and find something that works for you, that feels right. DOnt do anything thats gonna hurt yourself, but theres something to be said about finding your own way to do things.
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  #48  
Old 11-25-2009, 01:11 PM
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Casper,

Two notes, the skip note and 3, are played during the "pull". The bit I'm uncertain about is what drives the hit on 3. I gave this approach a try the other day. It seems the hit on 3 was done by the combination of a drop of the wrist together with the closing of the fingers. Does it sound right?
100% accurate, a perfect way of saying it!
Good job!
Casper
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  #49  
Old 11-25-2009, 01:29 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by brittc89 View Post
Im really confused by this thread. A lot of terms getting thrown out that are confusing me. I would say listen to your favorite players and find something that works for you, that feels right. DOnt do anything thats gonna hurt yourself, but theres something to be said about finding your own way to do things.
There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but it's good council to start with a sharp knife...
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  #50  
Old 11-25-2009, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by curiousnomad View Post
If you study (and watch)
But as was stated before- if you are just starting the concept is very different from rock. You cannot just "muscle" the time in jazz. The time is played with an acoustic bass generally, which has a swinging flowing bass line. That is what you lock into, not a punchy, loud electric bass. Your ride cymbal feel needs to work with that.
I've never really used just muscle in my playing, I've always been one for using my Fingers and Wrist more than anything. I'm working on this and I am gaining results...slowly, but that doesn't concern me, it's gonna take as long as it takes so to speak.

Regards,

Kev
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  #51  
Old 11-25-2009, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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There may be more than one way to skin a cat, but it's good council to start with a sharp knife...
Its good council to sharpen it youself to make sure its sharp, not trust someone else to deal with your very individual and unique knife.
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  #52  
Old 11-25-2009, 08:16 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Its good council to sharpen it youself to make sure its sharp, not trust someone else to deal with your very individual and unique knife.
And where do you learn to sharpen it? Do you simply grind away at a whole bunch of knives, ruining them in the process, and hope to figure it out eventually? Why not head down to the local expert and watch him do what he does and ask a few questions?

There are a number of great "self taught" players out there. There are even MORE great players who sought out help from the best teachers they could find. A great teacher is able to help with a variety of students with different needs. A good teacher doesn't have only one approach, they help you to find yours...

Heck, the OP of this thread started the topic because his teacher believes that the most common technique is not right for his "individual and unique" self.

Last edited by Boomka; 11-25-2009 at 08:27 PM.
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  #53  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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And where do you learn to sharpen it? Do you simply grind away at a whole bunch of knives, ruining them in the process, and hope to figure it out eventually? Why not head down to the local expert and watch him do what he does and ask a few questions?

There are a number of great "self taught" players out there. There are even MORE great players who sought out help from the best teachers they could find. A great teacher is able to help with a variety of students with different needs. A good teacher doesn't have only one approach, they help you to find yours...

Heck, the OP of this thread started the topic because his teacher believes that the most common technique is not right for his "individual and unique" self.
So people post youtube videos? This is the apprentice system weve come to. You honestly think virtual John Riley can assess this problem. Im sure if he was in a room with John Riley this would be no issue. I just feel like weve entered the hyper technique phase of drumming, where everyone takes this youtube Moeller stroke/Push pull/ everything else and just does it. THis isnt the way I learned. Its not the way Tony Williams used to learn going to Alan Dawson.

So what was your suggestion? Get the best teacher you can find? I would say this is the answer as well. BUt find something that works. A good teacher shouldnt just give you all the answers, you need to do a little searching. The world has become so small in the digital revolution that weve entered a state of instant gratification. I wanna learn how to play fast and I wanna learn now, this seems to be a prevalent attitude. When people could insted go to a teacher, but at the same time use their brain to help them get comfortable.
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  #54  
Old 11-25-2009, 09:44 PM
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K.Howden K.Howden is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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A good teacher shouldnt just give you all the answers, you need to do a little searching. The world has become so small in the digital revolution that weve entered a state of instant gratification. I wanna learn how to play fast and I wanna learn now, this seems to be a prevalent attitude. When people could insted go to a teacher, but at the same time use their brain to help them get comfortable.
I don't know if this is aimed at me but either way I must step in here. Personally speaking I'm not looking for instant gratification I've stated many times in this thread that I'm am going to be patient with this and do it right...and as for doing a little searching and "using my own Brain" that's what I'm doing. If I'm not well versed in something, in this case Jazz, then I'll use my Brain and seek the advice/knowledge of people who are well versed, it's called common sense if I am not mistake?

Using my own initiative comes in how I choose to use the infromation I'm given, analysing whether the way I'm using the information and whether I need to adjust or consolidate the way I'm using it.

Either way we've seen what was perfectly pleasant Thread that myself and others were enjoying be tarnished by you making it personal. My advice would be to ditch the self-important attitude and if you don't like the Thread don't read it...simple as. If you want to debate how people are learning and your particular grievences with it, then start your own by all means, but don't barge your way into what is in my opnion an: infrormative, friendly and constructive discussion.

Without malice,

Kev
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  #55  
Old 11-25-2009, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

Im not making anything personal. Nothing was directed at you. I was saying in general. Im done here. Yet again, people have no need for opinions here. Only the answers they want to hear.
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  #56  
Old 11-25-2009, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

I don't get the change of tone myself Kev either............


You asked some questions and posted some samples of your playing at this point in time to evaluate and you got some good advice coming from some differing points of view to think over and try for yourself. A few posted video clips here too as reference to see well known examples of application and also some personal examples from people {myself included} with actual years of experience and credibility on the subject as both players and educators on the subject to use as visual study points to get you started in the right direction and approach. A few also suggested a good one on one teacher away from the net is the best course of action at this point for you. Certainly worked for me early on in this game as I indicated combined with developing my own individual approach over time to it.

Don't see the need for a dust up on the subject myself since music and advice isn't a competition sport............
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  #57  
Old 11-25-2009, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Im not making anything personal. Nothing was directed at you. I was saying in general. Im done here. Yet again, people have no need for opinions here. Only the answers they want to hear.
Well it seemed that way reading your post so I apologise, you are completley right in that regard though...opinions are what I asked for and opinions are what I'm getting so I'd best to embrace them.

Hope you're well and thanks for the kick up the arse!

Kev
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  #58  
Old 11-25-2009, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by brittc89 View Post
So people post youtube videos? This is the apprentice system weve come to. You honestly think virtual John Riley can assess this problem. Im sure if he was in a room with John Riley this would be no issue. I just feel like weve entered the hyper technique phase of drumming, where everyone takes this youtube Moeller stroke/Push pull/ everything else and just does it. THis isnt the way I learned. Its not the way Tony Williams used to learn going to Alan Dawson.

So what was your suggestion? Get the best teacher you can find? I would say this is the answer as well. BUt find something that works. A good teacher shouldnt just give you all the answers, you need to do a little searching. The world has become so small in the digital revolution that weve entered a state of instant gratification. I wanna learn how to play fast and I wanna learn now, this seems to be a prevalent attitude. When people could insted go to a teacher, but at the same time use their brain to help them get comfortable.

Like I say Britt I didn't get that vibe from Kev AT ALL. He sounds pretty open to getting some input from various folks at this point in time to take it to the next level of understanding. Kev didn't ONCE suggest he was after the instant gratification approach to the subject he was asking about.

Just telling it the way I see it......
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  #59  
Old 12-04-2009, 02:27 AM
sciomako sciomako is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Originally Posted by Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan View Post
John Riley told me to play it as two movements, so on 2, you push down, the stick forces the fingers out. Now, you pull it up. During the "pull", you play the skip note, and the 3 comes out as strong as 2. You can vary the intensity of the skip note.

During all there is no pressure on the index, it is just resting on the stick. I have really liked this approach, I noticed I was able to play relaxed at faster speeds.
(K.Howden, I hope you don't mind I hijack your thread.)

I've been practicing John Riley's ride technique for a few days. I have to say learning new mechanics like this is very frustrating. Riley's approach makes me hit the downbeats softer than the skip notes. This by itself isn't an issue. It may even be a desirable articulation. But it messed with my brain and my timing was everywhere. My body kept on thinking the now accented skip notes were the downbeats and, as a result, played the actual downbeats too late. If I slowed it down and played with a metronome with a lot of concentration, it went ok. But whenever I played with a backing track, my body went on auto-pilot and all my downbeats were late.

This is very frustrating. But I can see why this approach will allow me to play up-tempo easier. I think what I need is keep working on it with a lot of patience...
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  #60  
Old 12-04-2009, 04:33 PM
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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........................ Riley's approach makes me hit the downbeats softer than the skip notes. This by itself isn't an issue. ...
Two things come to mind reading this
1) the Riley ride technique is essentially a push pull technique, and this means that it can be, and is for you, awkward to hear the "pull" on the downbeat. This was a challenge for me too as I have not spent a lot of time on push pull before this. However, with practice, it feels great, and to watch Riley do it at 280 BPM while saying in his characteristic drone "...and I can do this aaaalll daaayy", with no pretense, like he was telling you milk is white. That should give you courage. I love that man...

2) you might want to work on your wrists separately first, or in parallel, maybe just doing some half strokes or something...

Hope this helps,
Casper
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  #61  
Old 12-05-2009, 11:17 AM
sciomako sciomako is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

Thanks Casper..............
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  #62  
Old 12-08-2009, 07:17 AM
Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

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Thanks Casper..............
you are SO welcome :-)
Casper
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  #63  
Old 12-21-2009, 09:39 PM
sciomako sciomako is offline
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Default Re: Help with Jazz Ride Cymbal technique

I noticed at slow and moderate tempos many drummers move their right arms in and out sideway while they are riding. Here is an example of Tommy Igoe. (But when he demo'd uptempo here, the arm movement was no longer there and it looks more like Riley's open/close.) I read that this helps to maintain the space between the notes.

I've never done this. I maintain the space by the height of the stick. I'm wondering if this is something I should work on too.
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