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  #81  
Old 04-24-2012, 11:30 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Originally Posted by Anduin View Post
Sure. Of course. But if you spent day after day, week after week trying to write exactly like Nietzsche, nobody in the philosophy community would take you seriously. At some point you have to mature and do your own thing.
I have no idea why you keep insisting that we are talking about cramming this info into our brains day after day endlessly until we are clones of those we are studying

thats quite ridiculous

its simply about getting a more in depth understanding of how the masters approached certain things

amazingly beneficial.....give it a try

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 04-25-2012 at 12:03 AM.
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  #82  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

You probably do limit yourself Larry. It has a strong benefit to keep your mind always open to learn from others musicality & drumming...unless you are a natural born drummer and self-taught musician. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Am I limiting myself? I wanted opinions.

I have definite ideas, enough to keep me busy till I'm done here, and don't need other drummers for any inspiration....at all. Music inspires me.

I Would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
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  #83  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:23 AM
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You probably do limit yourself Larry. It has a strong benefit to keep your mind always open to learn from others musicality & drumming...unless you are a natural born drummer and self-taught musician. Cheers!
I think in the circumstances you outline, it's probably even more important to be receptive to influences. Otherwise you end up sounding like somebody that can play but has never heard a note in their life. NaÔvity can be useful in some situations but rarely in this one.
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  #84  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:40 AM
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Interesting valid point. Food for thought...

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I think in the circumstances you outline, it's probably even more important to be receptive to influences. Otherwise you end up sounding like somebody that can play but has never heard a note in their life. NaÔvity can be useful in some situations but rarely in this one.
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  #85  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I can't relate, I never did that. Am I limiting myself? I wanted opinions. It's just an attitude I have. I just wouldn't do that. I focus on developing my own voice on the drumkit.

Would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
For me there's a noticable difference between being influenced or inspired by drummers and studying the work of drummers, personally, I don't think I ever studied a drummer's work or style or approach on the instruments, at least not in the sense of becoming and being able to play like him :)

Over the years, I have come accross many drummers which I really loved the way they play, whatever it's the feel, the approach, the texture, the technique, the sound, the musicality and so on... I have emulated and try to copy certain aspect of their drumming, to further my own development as a drummer and musician, taking inspirations and influences from many, many drummers, but that's not studying as such, it's like a tool to enhance my drumming, like you Larry, I want to develop my own voice on the kit, but all these hints from all these wonderful players have considerably helped me to achieve it by picking and choosing elements of their drumming that I can relate as a musician... tastes, textures, colors and feel are very subjective matters, I don't feel I've lost my own identity in the process :)
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  #86  
Old 04-25-2012, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

I love the implied idea that it's possible to be a drummer without influences.
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  #87  
Old 04-25-2012, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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so Buddy Rich, Elvin Jones, Art Blakey, Joe Morello and Max Roach have nothing to offer you?

ok....have fun reading more Thoreau who died in the 1860s

talk about the old being useless

every drummer I know of who is known and praised for his own unique style are the ones who openly express how they studied the greats before them like is was a religion
I feel like my post touched a hot button.

Ultimately the approach a drummer takes to the set that brings them success is irrelevant, at least in the case of which drummer they studied the most, or if they studied any history of the art at all. You'll find a lot of guys out there who did read about everybody before them, and watched videos and listened to their predecessors' music. Then, you'll find people who've never heard so much as a whisper about Gene Krupa, simply because they've never gotten that deeply into it.

I am personally a fan of Steve Gadd, and I've been interested in what he plays and his approach to the instrument, but I would never believe that studying him intensely would be beneficial to me. When a drummer steps up, people would expect him to be himself, not an emulator of a past great.

If what I said was interpreted as "Old masters are worthless, uninteresting, and pointless to look into", then I suppose I should apologize for whatever mistake I made that caused that interpretation.

Nice ambiguous evidence at the end, by the way.
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  #88  
Old 04-25-2012, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
...I want to develop my own voice on the kit, but all these hints from all these wonderful players have considerably helped me to achieve it ...
Yeah, that's the one.
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  #89  
Old 04-25-2012, 05:02 AM
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If what I said was interpreted as "Old masters are worthless, uninteresting, and pointless to look into", then I suppose I should apologize...
Don't worry about it. You have almost zero control over how your reader interprets your writing. Most of us understood you the first time.
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  #90  
Old 04-25-2012, 06:21 AM
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I spend a lot of time listening to bitchin drummers and lifting their ideas that I like the most. Over time my style has evolved into sort of a Greatest Hits compilation of all my favorite drummers, and I sample broadly.

But I don't get all this reverence for the "Greats". Who are they, and why are they greats? I'm gonna reveal more than I probably want to with this, but as much as I know that Tony Williams was a great drummer, I've never lifted anything directly from him because I generally don't enjoy listing to the music that he played one. Same for Elvin and an endless list of other jazz "greats". I just don't like jazz that much, so I don't listen to it. Therefore the jazz drumming greats have only influenced my playing insofar as they've influenced my influences."here and now" that make my head spin because it's in this old form and/or context that feels somehow irrelevant. Then again, I'm also lazy with a mild case of ADHD, so if something's not grabbing me for whatever reason, I'm quick to move on to something that does.

I was just listening to Dave Grohl with TCV last night marveling at how strong his pulse is and how appropriate the things he plays seem to be. I know he's not the strongest technical player and he's probably never studied anything, much less any "greats", but again: I don't care because whatever it is that he does resonates with me.

It's like when I was growing up drumming in the early '80s and Neil Peart was my hero. I spend my formative years learning to play every song on Moving Pictures and a bunch of other stuff from the Rush catalog. I read NP interview in MD, too. That's probably as far into anyone's head as I've ever got, but the take-away message to me was that you should always play what turns you on and never sell out just to make a buck. The gift of drumming is too precious to be sullied with concerns over making rent payments. Art ceases to be art once it's compromised by financial considerations.

I don't listen to much Peart anymore and don't like his playing anywhere near as much as I did as a kid, but his philosophy toward drumming and art has stayed with me longer than probably any other drummer I can think of.

But yeah, I hear something cool on drums and I'll pick it apart, reverse engineer it, and bust it out (or some version of it) in some original I'm working on. Greatest hits of all my faves - that's all I am!
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  #91  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Originally Posted by Coldhardsteel View Post
I feel like my post touched a hot button.

Ultimately the approach a drummer takes to the set that brings them success is irrelevant, at least in the case of which drummer they studied the most, or if they studied any history of the art at all. You'll find a lot of guys out there who did read about everybody before them, and watched videos and listened to their predecessors' music. Then, you'll find people who've never heard so much as a whisper about Gene Krupa, simply because they've never gotten that deeply into it.

I am personally a fan of Steve Gadd, and I've been interested in what he plays and his approach to the instrument, but I would never believe that studying him intensely would be beneficial to me. When a drummer steps up, people would expect him to be himself, not an emulator of a past great.

If what I said was interpreted as "Old masters are worthless, uninteresting, and pointless to look into", then I suppose I should apologize for whatever mistake I made that caused that interpretation.

Nice ambiguous evidence at the end, by the way.
yeah studying Gadd will not benefit you at all

absolutely not...dont do it....it will greatly harm your drumming and then every time you try to play with someone every stroke you take will sound like 50 ways to leave your lover.....my goodness its unavoidable.....please be careful ......oh my god turn off the music ...IM.... BECOMING....STEVE....GADD.......!!!!!!!!!...nooooo ooo IM NOT ORIGINAL....

very dangerous

by the way.......props on reading the posts in this thread then STILL insist we are talking ...in any way shape or form ...about copying or emulating anyone

you seem very perceptive

and as for my "ambiguous evidence"

Ive been to hundreds of clinics....had some of the best drummers in the world as teachers....and will continue to have some of the best drummers in the world as teachers as I have some master classes booked for august with guys that blow all of our minds

anyway...every one of them credits drummers they loved for the way they play today....most of them admit to trying to absolutely copy every note in route to developing the style they have now

all of them have encouraged and pretty much insisted to whoever was listening to study drummers we love and learn about how they play and how they approach situations...learn from the past ...learn from whats been said and how they said it....this is HOW you develop your style

if you dont do this I truly believe you are not only hurting your own originality (whatever that means...if its even possible) as well as limiting your knowledge on this great journey we are all on

are you under some sort of impression that YOU are creating the grooves that come out of you when you sit down to play out of thin air ?

thats actually hilarious

hate to break it to you my man...but unless you are hitting the drums with mind bullets you are not breaking any new ground

have fun missing out on some of the best things about playing an instrument

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 04-25-2012 at 07:39 AM.
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  #92  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

FWIW, this thread has shown me the error of my ways. I shall work on learning to broaden my horizons.
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  #93  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:17 AM
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FWIW, this thread has shown me the error of my ways. I shall work on learning to broaden my horizons.
Any thoughts on who you're going to examine?
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  #94  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:04 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

Stanton Moore...Zigaboo....they come to mind. Monster groove players. There's so many to listen to it's a little overwhelming.

Thinking about this thread has really shone some light on some dark areas in my brain. I do realize that I am heavily influenced, unknowingly, by Hal Blaine. Reading a list of his discography was like reading the song track to my youth. I suppose the respective Motown drummers are a big influence as well, because I liked that music.

I'm not really that deep at all, concerning the greats, as are some members here and they have my respect.
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  #95  
Old 04-25-2012, 09:52 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

Larry, I think you'd enjoy digging into Pretty Purdie's playing - seems right in your zone - funky and bluesy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCyRPCojb2Q
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  #96  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:05 AM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

larry, props to being mature enough to accept that you might be wrong and change your approach. respect :)
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  #97  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:12 AM
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I think you'd enjoy digging into Pretty Purdie's playing
Yes! Let him 'splain it to you . . .
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  #98  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:52 AM
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I am personally a fan of Steve Gadd, and I've been interested in what he plays and his approach to the instrument, but I would never believe that studying him intensely would be beneficial to me. When a drummer steps up, people would expect him to be himself, not an emulator of a past great.
For me, studying Steve Gadd has had the exact opposite. I've learned more by studying him than almost anyone else. Does not mean I play like a wannabe Gadd - wouldn't matter since I'd only embarrass myself trying.

How many people do you think Gadd comes from or any other drummer for that matter?
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  #99  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:00 PM
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For me, studying Steve Gadd has had the exact opposite. I've learned more by studying him than almost anyone else. Does not mean I play like a wannabe Gadd - wouldn't matter since I'd only embarrass myself trying.

How many people do you think Gadd comes from or any other drummer for that matter?
Steveís own influences are drummers like Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Tony Williams and Elvin Jones.
http://www.drummersrepublic.com/drum...mmers-drummer/

Not sure if the above account for his sambas or manic quads, though. I also hear influence from his military service.
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  #100  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:14 PM
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Steveís own influences are drummers like Buddy Rich, Louie Bellson, Tony Williams and Elvin Jones.
http://www.drummersrepublic.com/drum...mmers-drummer/

Not sure if the above account for his sambas or manic quads, though. I also hear influence from his military service.
For sure Polly. Another huge influence was Chick Corea (who is also a drummer) and Zig. Chick taught him how to loosen up his swing. Until that point it was very Krupa oriented.

I probably know more about Steve since I live in the same town he was born, raised. went to school and moved back to after leaving NYC. Also, I studied with a couple of his peers which were also taught by many of his same teachers. His roots run deep here.

Steve's rudimentary style also is a reflection of many years marching in a local drum corp as a kid.
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  #101  
Old 04-25-2012, 12:59 PM
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For sure Polly. Another huge influence was Chick Corea (who is also a drummer) and Zig. Chick taught him how to loosen up his swing. Until that point it was very Krupa oriented.

I probably know more about Steve since I live in the same town he was born, raised. went to school and moved back to after leaving NYC. Also, I studied with a couple of his peers which were also taught by many of his same teachers. His roots run deep here.

Steve's rudimentary style also is a reflection of many years marching in a local drum corp as a kid.
Have you worked with Professor Beck? Every time my kid sees the man he just about faints. The Professor is one of his major heros and I know he is close to Mr. Gadd.
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  #102  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:33 PM
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I just recently joined a local classic rock cover band called "2 Dollar Bills". I have had to learn how to play 45 to 50 songs that I would not normally like or listen to. None of this stuff is all that technical, but it has made me try and emulate many different popular drummers. Everyone one of them has their own little things that they do differently. I think that anyone that loves music, and has listened to a song anywhere, for any reason, has studied a drummer. Maybe not to the depth of some people on here, but it has to rub off on our playing somewhere. After all everything has been done before, and then some!
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  #103  
Old 04-25-2012, 01:55 PM
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I just recently joined a local classic rock cover band called "2 Dollar Bills". I have had to learn how to play 45 to 50 songs that I would not normally like or listen to. None of this stuff is all that technical, but it has made me try and emulate many different popular drummers. Everyone one of them has their own little things that they do differently. I think that anyone that loves music, and has listened to a song anywhere, for any reason, has studied a drummer. Maybe not to the depth of some people on here, but it has to rub off on our playing somewhere. After all everything has been done before, and then some!
Very cool, man. Nice to hear that you've joined a band. Now you have something else to keep you busy. Why wouldn't you be in a band?

Yeah, I don't like it when I have to list my influences to potential band mates because the list is so long and vast. I mean everything from The Skatelites to Phil Rudd. So I just tell them the usual suspects (Bonham, Moon, Ulrich, Tre, etc.) I pick up stuff wherever and whenever I can.
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  #104  
Old 04-25-2012, 02:04 PM
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Very cool, man. Nice to hear that you've joined a band. Now you have something else to keep you busy. Why wouldn't you be in a band?

Yeah, I don't like it when I have to list my influences to potential band mates because the list is so long and vast. I mean everything from The Skatelites to Phil Rudd. So I just tell them the usual suspects (Bonham, Moon, Ulrich, Tre, etc.) I pick up stuff wherever and whenever I can.
Thanks man. I am also working for a farmer up the road, so I have less time to get into trouble now! :)
It's funny, I was denied a tryout with a band last month because of the picture of my monster kit. The guy told me on the phone that I was exactly the opposite of what they where looking for. He said he wanted someone to just keep steady time. He had not even heard me yet. I had Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy listed as two of my influences. IT doesn't mean I play exactly like they do.
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  #105  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

Studying drummers goes beyond taking their literal licks, patterns, grooves, whatever.
It's also about their musical phrasing, their flow, how they respond to certain musical
situations and directions, how they design drumparts throughout a whole tune, etc etc.

I wonder how many drummers are convinced they're inventing wheels, while they're
actually "inventing" things many drummers covered years or even decades ago.
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  #106  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:33 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Studying drummers goes beyond taking their literal licks, patterns, grooves, whatever.
It's also about their musical phrasing, their flow, how they respond to certain musical
situations and directions, how they design drumparts throughout a whole tune, etc etc.

I wonder how many drummers are convinced they're inventing wheels, while they're
actually "inventing" things many drummers covered years or even decades ago.
another great post
.................
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  #107  
Old 04-25-2012, 04:58 PM
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Default philly joe

Hey Guys,

This is an interesting and important conversation, thanks for bringing it to my attention Anthony.

For me, getting in depth studying a couple of drummers has been the most important part of my musical education, so I am completely on board with how this kind of study can benefit your playing. There are a lot of different issues wrapped inside of this, so sometimes talking about all of them at once can cross some wires. Let me try to make myself as clear as possible.

Learning the drums (or really any instrument for that matter) is just like learning a language, it is all about ear training and imitation to start out with. Babies learn by listening to and imitating their most central influences (parents, family, etc..) before eventually starting to construct their own words and sentences. Imitation is the key to learning how to speak and how to play music.

The evidence for this argument about imitation is really overwhelming. Let me post a link to a blog post I did about Tony William's perspective on this as an example:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/1...own-voice.html

Just like in the baby analogy, the point is not that the baby is eventually going to speak/think exactly like it's parents. That would be cloning. You are going to speak and think like yourself no matter what. As Tony puts it, you study and imitate the greats "to learn what the instrument will do". Once you know what the instrument can do, then you can do what you want with it. Again, imitation is how you learn to play not how you play! When you get up on the bandstand, you always want to forget everything that you are working on and just respond to the music. In other words how you learn and how you actually play music are two different things. I believe that distinction is really important to understanding some of the arguments on this thread.

Somebody also brought up the point about what studying means, how in depth it is appropriate/necessary to study, and which drummers to study. All of the questions are interesting and important, but I think the answer to each of these questions is it depends on your particular musical situation and aspirations. The one thing that is really not subjective is that you need to study someone.

Larry, I think that you are definitely on the right track. I am always inspired by your dedication to the art of drumming, particularly in the way you approach the fundamentals of drumming like your single stroke. In my opinion, if you can carry that same intensity, focus, and dedication to studying another drummers musical vocabulary, the benefits to your playing will be immediate and extraordinary! By the way, I have heard you play and you sound great already, so this will just be icing on the cake for you.

Anthony, I saw you brought up the idea of studying other instrumentalists as well and that you used the example of Sonny Rollins. What a great and inspiring example! Here is a link to an exercise from my forthcoming book that features a chorus of Sonny's solo on "St. Thomas" adapted as a drum exercise:
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  #108  
Old 04-25-2012, 05:00 PM
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Have you worked with Professor Beck? Every time my kid sees the man he just about faints. The Professor is one of his major heros and I know he is close to Mr. Gadd.
I've worked with Prof. John Beck on a limited basis. I've studied for many years with his students Ruth Cahn and Dave Mancini.
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  #109  
Old 04-25-2012, 05:03 PM
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Default philly joe

Hey Guys,

This is an interesting and important conversation, thanks for bringing it to my attention Anthony.

Studying a couple of drummers in depth has been the most important part of my musical education, so I am completely on board with how this kind of study can benefit your playing. There are a lot of different issues wrapped inside of this, so sometimes talking about all of them at once can cross some wires. Let me try to make myself as clear as possible.

Learning the drums (or really any instrument for that matter) is just like learning a language, it is all about ear training and imitation to start out with. Babies learn by listening to and imitating their most central influences (parents, family, etc..) before eventually starting to construct their own words and sentences. Imitation is the key to learning how to speak and how to play music.

The evidence for this argument about imitation is really overwhelming. Let me post a link to a blog post I did about Tony William's perspective on this as an example:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/1...own-voice.html

Just like in the baby analogy, the point is not that the baby is eventually going to speak/think exactly like it's parents. That would be cloning. You are going to speak and think like yourself no matter what. As Tony puts it, you study and imitate the greats "to learn what the instrument will do". Once you know what the instrument can do, then you can do what you want with it. Again, imitation is how you learn to play not how you play! When you get up on the bandstand, you always want to forget everything that you are working on and just respond to the music. In other words, how you learn and how you actually play music are two different things. I believe that distinction is really important to understanding some of the arguments on this thread.

Somebody also brought up the point about what studying means, how in depth it is appropriate/necessary to study, and which drummers to study. All of the questions are interesting and important, but I think the answer to each of these questions is, it depends on your particular musical situation and aspirations. The one thing that is really not subjective is that you need to study someone.

Larry, I think that you are definitely on the right track. I am always inspired by your dedication to the art of drumming, particularly in the way you approach the fundamentals of drumming like your single stroke. In my opinion, if you can carry that same intensity, focus, and dedication to studying another drummers musical vocabulary, the benefits to your playing will be immediate and extraordinary! By the way, I have heard you play and you sound great already, so this will just be icing on the cake for you.

Anthony, I saw you brought up the idea of studying other instrumentalists as well and that you used the example of Sonny Rollins. What a great and inspiring example! That reminds me that I need to put up a comping exercise from my book that has a chorus of Sonny's solo from "St. Thomas" adapted for the drums, so stay tuned for that.
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  #110  
Old 04-25-2012, 06:03 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: philly joe

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Originally Posted by haredrums View Post
Hey Guys,

This is an interesting and important conversation, thanks for bringing it to my attention Anthony.

Studying a couple of drummers in depth has been the most important part of my musical education, so I am completely on board with how this kind of study can benefit your playing. There are a lot of different issues wrapped inside of this, so sometimes talking about all of them at once can cross some wires. Let me try to make myself as clear as possible.

Learning the drums (or really any instrument for that matter) is just like learning a language, it is all about ear training and imitation to start out with. Babies learn by listening to and imitating their most central influences (parents, family, etc..) before eventually starting to construct their own words and sentences. Imitation is the key to learning how to speak and how to play music.

The evidence for this argument about imitation is really overwhelming. Let me post a link to a blog post I did about Tony William's perspective on this as an example:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/1...own-voice.html

Just like in the baby analogy, the point is not that the baby is eventually going to speak/think exactly like it's parents. That would be cloning. You are going to speak and think like yourself no matter what. As Tony puts it, you study and imitate the greats "to learn what the instrument will do". Once you know what the instrument can do, then you can do what you want with it. Again, imitation is how you learn to play not how you play! When you get up on the bandstand, you always want to forget everything that you are working on and just respond to the music. In other words, how you learn and how you actually play music are two different things. I believe that distinction is really important to understanding some of the arguments on this thread.

Somebody also brought up the point about what studying means, how in depth it is appropriate/necessary to study, and which drummers to study. All of the questions are interesting and important, but I think the answer to each of these questions is, it depends on your particular musical situation and aspirations. The one thing that is really not subjective is that you need to study someone.

Larry, I think that you are definitely on the right track. I am always inspired by your dedication to the art of drumming, particularly in the way you approach the fundamentals of drumming like your single stroke. In my opinion, if you can carry that same intensity, focus, and dedication to studying another drummers musical vocabulary, the benefits to your playing will be immediate and extraordinary! By the way, I have heard you play and you sound great already, so this will just be icing on the cake for you.

Anthony, I saw you brought up the idea of studying other instrumentalists as well and that you used the example of Sonny Rollins. What a great and inspiring example! That reminds me that I need to put up a comping exercise from my book that has a chorus of Sonny's solo from "St. Thomas" adapted for the drums, so stay tuned for that.
amazing response as always Andrew

I feel like you took every thought on this subject in my rats nest of a brain and untangled all the cables rolled them up and hung them neatly on the hooks of the studio

thank you for that

...and yeah I absolutely study how Sonny Rollins approaches rhythm ....its amazing

St. Thomas was actually the tune I was speaking of in the example you mentioned

Sonny, Monk, and McCoy Tyner are a few who I have been pulling from recently ...just taking some of their phrasing and applying it to the kit

its amazing what comes out

....great piece on Tony by the way

Tony inspired me as a young rock drummer because of the way he approached jazz almost in a rock attitude

as i got older and discovered many other styles I still hold Tony very high in my list of heroes

I spent the better part of 20 years studying Tony and in no way do I sound anything like him....I couldnt if I tried for 100 years

I dont even play many jazz gigs....or play much jazz at all for that matter

but if I was on a jazz gig ...and some Tony Williams came out of me....you would see one happy cat behind the kit

its funny.....I play many styles and get work in many styles....but jazz is probably the field I work the least ...at the same time the majority of my absolute drum inspirations are jazz players
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  #111  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:14 PM
bigd bigd is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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I've worked with Prof. John Beck on a limited basis. I've studied for many years with his students Ruth Cahn and Dave Mancini.

Oh, another couple of great ones there. Mr.Bill Cahn is another huge hero of my son. You're surrounded in Rochester with great musicians/players/teachers. I'm hoping my son attends Eastman. It's on his list but not actually his first choice.
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  #112  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:27 PM
Balto
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

I studied in my basement listening to records! Does that count! :/
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  #113  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:52 PM
dmacc dmacc is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Oh, another couple of great ones there. Mr.Bill Cahn is another huge hero of my son. You're surrounded in Rochester with great musicians/players/teachers. I'm hoping my son attends Eastman. It's on his list but not actually his first choice.
Thank you... For sure if you are a drummer who wants to study, it's a wonderful place to be. If you want to do a lot of playing - it's a terrible place to be.

I'm sure your son knows but remind him that though Eastman is costly it's indeed a world class institution.

Would of love to have been around in the day where Steve Gadd, Tony Levin, Chick Corea, & Joe Romano had a wedding band.... Can you imagine....

For whatever is in the water here, some great drummers and musicians came from and through here due to Eastman. Gadd, Levin, Corea, Carter, La Barbera brothers and so many more great jazz artists, not to mention the Classical artiists.

I sent to your email address a recent article you can share with your son. It has John Beck showing his then students Gadd with Ruth Cahn as well as an in-depth article with Bill Cahn.
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  #114  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:55 PM
dmacc dmacc is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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I studied in my basement listening to records! Does that count! :/
It is absolutely one of the most critical elements to studying... That's a giant YES in my opinion.
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  #115  
Old 04-26-2012, 12:29 AM
ocdrums ocdrums is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

This reminds me of my neighbor who was playing me some of his bands songs. He kept saying, "I made this up" and , "this is my beat". I didn't have the heart to tell him those grooves have been around for years. I'm not saying he didn't come up with them on his own, but he really thought no one had played these beats before. Sad/funny!
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  #116  
Old 04-26-2012, 02:46 AM
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Dr_Watso Dr_Watso is offline
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Default Re: philly joe

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Originally Posted by haredrums View Post
Hey Guys,

This is an interesting and important conversation, thanks for bringing it to my attention Anthony.

Studying a couple of drummers in depth has been the most important part of my musical education, so I am completely on board with how this kind of study can benefit your playing. There are a lot of different issues wrapped inside of this, so sometimes talking about all of them at once can cross some wires. Let me try to make myself as clear as possible.

Learning the drums (or really any instrument for that matter) is just like learning a language, it is all about ear training and imitation to start out with. Babies learn by listening to and imitating their most central influences (parents, family, etc..) before eventually starting to construct their own words and sentences. Imitation is the key to learning how to speak and how to play music.

The evidence for this argument about imitation is really overwhelming. Let me post a link to a blog post I did about Tony William's perspective on this as an example:

http://haredrums.blogspot.com/2011/1...own-voice.html

Just like in the baby analogy, the point is not that the baby is eventually going to speak/think exactly like it's parents. That would be cloning. You are going to speak and think like yourself no matter what. As Tony puts it, you study and imitate the greats "to learn what the instrument will do". Once you know what the instrument can do, then you can do what you want with it. Again, imitation is how you learn to play not how you play! When you get up on the bandstand, you always want to forget everything that you are working on and just respond to the music. In other words, how you learn and how you actually play music are two different things. I believe that distinction is really important to understanding some of the arguments on this thread.

Somebody also brought up the point about what studying means, how in depth it is appropriate/necessary to study, and which drummers to study. All of the questions are interesting and important, but I think the answer to each of these questions is, it depends on your particular musical situation and aspirations. The one thing that is really not subjective is that you need to study someone.

Larry, I think that you are definitely on the right track. I am always inspired by your dedication to the art of drumming, particularly in the way you approach the fundamentals of drumming like your single stroke. In my opinion, if you can carry that same intensity, focus, and dedication to studying another drummers musical vocabulary, the benefits to your playing will be immediate and extraordinary! By the way, I have heard you play and you sound great already, so this will just be icing on the cake for you.

Anthony, I saw you brought up the idea of studying other instrumentalists as well and that you used the example of Sonny Rollins. What a great and inspiring example! That reminds me that I need to put up a comping exercise from my book that has a chorus of Sonny's solo from "St. Thomas" adapted for the drums, so stay tuned for that.
Not only is this post excellent in subject matter, it's also an excellent example for what I think is nearly as important as actual study...

Listening. I think it is so important to listen to music as a drummer. Imitation is a great word to use, and with that concept, it's impossible to conceive that you won't learn by listening to music. All kinds of music, all the time. Step out of your normal comfort zones and try to appreciate something new as much as possible. Even if you're not actively studying something, you learn by exposure. You get more sources of influence, and slowly build ideas from your experience and exposure.

I mention this because I'm constantly floored by the number of musicians I meet who hardly listen to music, or only listen to a small section of their favorites.
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  #117  
Old 04-26-2012, 03:14 AM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Thanks man. I am also working for a farmer up the road, so I have less time to get into trouble now! :)
It's funny, I was denied a tryout with a band last month because of the picture of my monster kit. The guy told me on the phone that I was exactly the opposite of what they where looking for. He said he wanted someone to just keep steady time. He had not even heard me yet. I had Neil Peart and Mike Portnoy listed as two of my influences. IT doesn't mean I play exactly like they do.
I think when I actually get a dedicated practice area where I can come and go as I please, I will be studying Neil Peart. I think that would be great for my development.

Great to hear that you're farming. I think if I wasn't doing what I do now (land surveying), I'd want to be a farmer. I actually know a couple of "farmers", but their crop is that wacky tobaccy. Funny thing is, if it wasn't for that crop, Mendocino County in Northern CA would go completely broke. ha ha! I love farming! I grew up on a small farm.
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  #118  
Old 04-26-2012, 03:35 AM
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Ian Williams Ian Williams is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

A good drummer listens as much as he or she plays...
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  #119  
Old 04-26-2012, 04:11 AM
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larryace larryace is offline
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Larry, I think you'd enjoy digging into Pretty Purdie's playing - seems right in your zone - funky and bluesy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCyRPCojb2Q
Thanks Pol...His songs do feel great.....Stanton appeals to me more though. And Zigaboo...I just don't understand his slinky feel at all. Purdie...at the risk of sounding.... whatever...I can figure him out. He doesn't make me go... huh? wha? So mentally, he doesn't challenge me as much as some others. Stanton just comes up with stuff that I don't know where it came from, and it always grooves, so that attracts me more. I think it's his New Orleans influence, which I am fairly green with. Is Zigaboo considered a Nawlins' drummer as well?
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  #120  
Old 04-26-2012, 04:41 AM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: I don't study anyone

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Thanks Pol...His songs do feel great.....Stanton appeals to me more though. And Zigaboo...I just don't understand his slinky feel at all. Purdie...at the risk of sounding.... whatever...I can figure him out. He doesn't make me go... huh? wha? So mentally, he doesn't challenge me as much as some others. Stanton just comes up with stuff that I don't know where it came from, and it always grooves, so that attracts me more. I think it's his New Orleans influence, which I am fairly green with. Is Zigaboo considered a Nawlins' drummer as well?
yes the Meters are from New Orleans
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