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  #281  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: 12 Myths About Drumming

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Only in the context of Western pop music in the 20th century is it appropriate to compare those two to Paul and John.
Music that has a far larger audience than Bach has. Bach's audience during his lifetime was tiny. The Western Classical World has always been comparatively tiny. Important, yes but in terms of audience in comparison to modern audiences, it is small.

If you consider that viable recording mechanisms and home systems have only existed since about 1900 (at least on sale popularly) then The Beatles have been around for nearly half the time that viable recorded sound has existed. I wouldn't call that a 'blip', I would call that 'deeply significant'.

Like it or not, Bach et. al is actually mainly irrelevant outside circles of musicians. The vast majority of people may know of Bach and may even have heard some of the music but I seriously doubt that it's something that the vast majority will listen to by choice or discretely.
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  #282  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:30 PM
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Bach and Mozart have no business in this discussion

we are talking about pop music of the 60s
Bad Tempered Clavier mentioned the advent of the musical technique called counter-point, which Bach popularized through is mastery of it, as a radical change in music. I don't think Here Comes the Sun can compete with that.
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  #283  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:35 PM
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Bad Tempered Clavier mentioned the advent of the musical technique called counter-point, which Bach popularized through is mastery of it, as a radical change in music. I don't think Here Comes the Sun can compete with that.
this thread has become entirely to ridiculous for me

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  #284  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:35 PM
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Bad Tempered Clavier mentioned the advent of the musical technique called counter-point, which Bach popularized through is mastery of it, as a radical change in music. I don't think Here Comes the Sun can compete with that.
Bach never popularised anything in his lifetime. His influence was minimal at the time.

His mastery was only evident fifty years after his death.
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  #285  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:40 PM
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Music that has a far larger audience than Bach has. Bach's audience during his lifetime was tiny. The Western Classical World has always been comparatively tiny. Important, yes but in terms of audience in comparison to modern audiences, it is small.

If you consider that viable recording mechanisms and home systems have only existed since about 1900 (at least on sale popularly) then The Beatles have been around for nearly half the time that viable recorded sound has existed. I wouldn't call that a 'blip', I would call that 'deeply significant'.

Like it or not, Bach et. al is actually mainly irrelevant outside circles of musicians. The vast majority of people may know of Bach and may even have heard some of the music but I seriously doubt that it's something that the vast majority will listen to by choice or discretely.
Dude. I'm talking about things like the major and minor scales, counterpoint, voicing techniques, leading tones, chord structures, chord voicings, the concept of a bridge, a musical cadence, call and response. These are all things that pioneered the overall trajectory of Western music as a whole. Its why our music doesn't sound like the music of Africa, India, or South America. Without these things, nothing even similar to the Beatles would even exist. Maybe Bach's 5th sonata doesn't matter to many people anymore, but all of those musical techniques are still used today all genres of music. All those chord variations youre talking about, the cats in the 1700s did it first. These are basic fundamentals of Western composition. They can't be ignored or down played. Yes John Lennon was a visionary, but he didn't shape the way the Western half of the world writes/plays music. And if you say he was the first people to use complex chords in pop music, I'll say your wrong. The jazz community had already covered those tracks decades before.
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Last edited by wsabol; 04-20-2012 at 03:11 PM.
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  #286  
Old 04-19-2012, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: 12 Myths About Drumming

In terms of the fundamental musical language, yes. Agreed.

I was, however addressing this:

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even the trajectory of just Western music as a whole, the Beatles are a blip.
Simply not true. Sure, the notes are the same, as are some of the rhythmic elements and the basis of harmony but if you've been into a recording studio and recorded any commercial music since The Beatles then the fundamental process of producing music has changed immeasurably. They certainly weren't the first band to produce albums in the manner that they did but they certainly did pioneer a number of processes and systems of production that we still use today.

If you multiply those processes by the sheer access to recording that is now available to the music-making public (and indeed, audience) then you're not talking about a blip.

I'm afraid that you're seeing music from a very dry and outdated standpoint. Music today is so much more than just the notes and rhythms. Studio processes and production are just as (and arguably more) important in modern music and The Beatles pioneered or popularised so much of what we take for granted today that I would quite happily say they are the modern musical equivalent of Bach and with much a wider audience, at that.

EDIT: Just to add. The Beatles have sold a minimum of 248.8 million albums and counting. Some estimates are much, much higher. From a current World population of seven billion, that is a lot of album sales. They are more than a blip.
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  #287  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:52 AM
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Okay, I'll try to be brief . . .

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Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
just wanted to bump this up because it got buried and I really wanted Bad Tempered Clavier to read it [. . .] it may sound like the Beatles play this juvenile type of music to your ears because they are absolute song crafters [. . .] the use of odd diminished and augmented chords, and they way they are compiled in Beatles songs would not support your theory, their songs are quite complex actually [. . .] I challenge you to tell me what the chord is that opens "Hard Days Night"
Yeah, I read the Hard Days Night thing you posted last month in the drum snobbery thread: that was very cool. As it happens I absolutely agree with you - indeed I said as much in this thread:

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Originally Posted by Bad Tempered Clavier View Post
yes The Beatles were huge, yes they wrote very nice and occasionally complex music
But I feel wsabol has hit the mark when he says

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Originally Posted by wsabol View Post
Gvdadrummasum and Bad Tempered Clavier, I think you guys are just arguing semantics. You have two different definitions of a "radical change in music" [. . ] In terms of music as a whole, or even the trajectory of just Western music as a whole, the Beatles are a blip. We're are talking about giants like Bach and Mozart here.
I don't feel the need to trash Ringo or The Beatles - I mean, Ringo got paid untold amounts of money to sit on his arse and play the drums: I consider him a personal hero. But as hyperbolic as it may sound to compare The Beatles to J.S.Bach, I feel it is equally absurd to suggest the Beatles came up with any part of today's musical vocabulary [i.e. chords, scales, modes, harmonies - the nuts and bolts of tonality] that never existed before. Not that I'm saying you, Gvdadrummasum, personally are suggesting that, but it is an insinuation that has been creeping around for far too long.

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Music that has a far larger audience than Bach has. Bach's audience during his lifetime was tiny. The Western Classical World has always been comparatively tiny [. . .] in terms of audience in comparison to modern audiences, it is small.
Yeah, and that Bill Shakespeare never even won an Oscar - what a loser . . .

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Originally Posted by wsabol View Post
Bad Tempered Clavier mentioned the advent of the musical technique called counter-point, which Bach popularized through is mastery of it, as a radical change in music. I don't think Here Comes the Sun can compete with that.
One of their better tunes: and without the likes of JSB it would probably sound like Gregorian Chant.

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Bach never popularised anything in his lifetime. His influence was minimal at the time [. . .] His mastery was only evident fifty years after his death.
If only Dick Clark had put him on American Bandstand: Dang . . .

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Yes John Lennon was a visionary, but he didn't shape the way the Western half of the world writes/plays music.
Again, well said.

Look, none of us need to go handbags at ten paces over this: after all, it is just pop music we're talking about. I have agreed many times that both Ringo and the Beatles had talent and did a good job and brought joy to the world and all that wank - but I just find it hilarious the way some people still bang on about them like they had the power to part The Red Sea or something.
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  #288  
Old 04-20-2012, 12:59 AM
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Most of the magic of The Beatles came from Paul McCartney and John Lennon. In a lot of the songs, you can't even hear the drums very well. Ringo was a good drummer, but his feel wasn't what made The Beatles and their recordings magic..

Saying the drummer is responsible for most of the feel of the song is pretty egocentric/drummer-centric if you ask me. Feeling is a collective effort, it can come from anywhere/everywhere. Ray Charles had more feeling in his music than.. well... a lot of people, and he obviously didn't play drums. His songs are famous because of his feel, his tone, and his songwriting/arranging. I wouldn't for a second pin any of that success on the drummer, even if Purdie played on his albums.
Agree - a number of good points raised in this.
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  #289  
Old 04-20-2012, 01:03 AM
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Default Re: 12 Myths About Drumming

Bill Shakespeare was also immensely popular during his lifetime.

Odd you mention 'Here Comes the Sun' Wasabol. There's a Moog synthesiser in the mix there and that's certainly one of the most influential instruments created in the last century. They were early adopters.

The Beatles did re-define (or at least popularise) many of the important features of modern studio production. I consider that equally (or perhaps more) important to the notes that are used, the harmonies that are played and the rhythms that are incorporated. For many, many people the process of composition has changed utterly in the last fifty years and much of that has to do with changes in recorded music in the 1960s. You can hear this in The Beatles. A total shift in aesthetic and studio approach, from the earlier 'band in the room, no-overdubs' approach (which is still absolutely valid) and the 'studio created' music that has very little to do with band performances and everything to do with manipulation and processing.

If you write music to be performed entirely acoustically, with a pen and paper on manuscript paper and then hit 'record', then you're not going to be enormously influenced by The Beatles necessarily (although you probably still are to some extent by musical osmosis). If you're doing what a huge number of composers (and that includes general members of the public playing around on Garageband) do in studio-style composition then you're straight-up influenced. No getting away from it.
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  #290  
Old 04-20-2012, 01:09 AM
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You suspect, but you don't know.

Therefor, those drummers DO NOT live up with the qualifications you gave because you have no knowledge they do in fact a high level of mastery in several styles.
Valid point. It could be they were like Ringo - competent at a few things but very famous and influential. In my book, fame and influence alone don't make for a great musician. I'd have to research the biographies of each of them to know one way or the other.
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  #291  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:59 AM
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Odd you mention 'Here Comes the Sun' Wasabol. There's a Moog synthesiser in the mix there and that's certainly one of the most influential instruments created in the last century. They were early adopters.
.
Also in the song "Baby You're a Rich Man" they use a Clavioline. The only other place I've heard one of those is in the Icky Thump by White Stripes.

http://youtu.be/EdDVgJWXMCI

http://youtu.be/iSC24t0OvA4

We have a Hammond Organ in my band, but people rarely play it. The guy who plays it is always busy with another gig that actually pays.
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  #292  
Old 04-20-2012, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: 12 Myths About Drumming

Martin, I have to say that your signature at the bottom of your window...it's not true. Ringo definitely has influenced you. You dislike him so much that you don't want to play like him. That is still an influence. Just saying. Add to that the fact that someone who perhaps did influence you may have been influenced by RS. That would be a 2nd generation influence. Maybe you should change it because it's really not true. Everybody influences everybody, in some way.
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  #293  
Old 04-20-2012, 06:22 PM
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Martin, I have to say that your signature at the bottom of your window...it's not true. Ringo definitely has influenced you. You dislike him so much that you don't want to play like him. That is still an influence. Just saying. Add to that the fact that someone who perhaps did influence you may have been influenced by RS. That would be a 2nd generation influence. Maybe you should change it because it's really not true. Everybody influences everybody, in some way.
HA! Yes, if you try not to be like something else, then that is an influence in and of itself.

I do give Ringo very high marks on something that is too often overlooked: He is a great person. Is he ridiculed for being a hanger-on with little talent, in the right place at the right time? Yes, and some of that is true I believe. So? He shepherded his career well for 50 years, contributed to the most famous band ever, secured his place in history and influenced drumming immeasurably. Ringo went on to create more music, become a talk show host, do charitable acts and generally serve as a good role model.

Ringo has lived an honorable life of creativity and achievement. He hasn't destroyed his reputation, family or fortune with drugs, is not an abuser of women and has been a good influence in the world. I wish that Ringo and other people like him were more influential on the hundreds of weak musicians who waste tremendous talent and opportunity, hurt others, turn to addiction and then wrap up all the drama by choking on their vomit and becoming a punchline. For those reasons alone, I'd take one Ringo over a hundred John Bonhams, Jimi Hendrixes and Amy Winehouses, even as I quibble over his talent. Let's keep things in perspective.
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  #294  
Old 04-21-2012, 11:34 AM
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HA! Yes, if you try not to be like something else, then that is an influence in and of itself.

I do give Ringo very high marks on something that is too often overlooked: He is a great person. Is he ridiculed for being a hanger-on with little talent, in the right place at the right time? Yes, and some of that is true I believe. So? He shepherded his career well for 50 years, contributed to the most famous band ever, secured his place in history and influenced drumming immeasurably. Ringo went on to create more music, become a talk show host, do charitable acts and generally serve as a good role model.

Ringo has lived an honorable life of creativity and achievement. He hasn't destroyed his reputation, family or fortune with drugs, is not an abuser of women and has been a good influence in the world. I wish that Ringo and other people like him were more influential on the hundreds of weak musicians who waste tremendous talent and opportunity, hurt others, turn to addiction and then wrap up all the drama by choking on their vomit and becoming a punchline. For those reasons alone, I'd take one Ringo over a hundred John Bonhams, Jimi Hendrixes and Amy Winehouses, even as I quibble over his talent. Let's keep things in perspective.
Here you go DMC, I thought as much that you would rate RS highly other than his skills and talents, indeed, let's keep things in perspective :)
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  #295  
Old 04-21-2012, 02:18 PM
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HA! Yes, if you try not to be like something else, then that is an influence in and of itself.

I do give Ringo very high marks on something that is too often overlooked: He is a great person. Is he ridiculed for being a hanger-on with little talent, in the right place at the right time? Yes, and some of that is true I believe. So? He shepherded his career well for 50 years, contributed to the most famous band ever, secured his place in history and influenced drumming immeasurably. Ringo went on to create more music, become a talk show host, do charitable acts and generally serve as a good role model.

Ringo has lived an honorable life of creativity and achievement. He hasn't destroyed his reputation, family or fortune with drugs, is not an abuser of women and has been a good influence in the world. I wish that Ringo and other people like him were more influential on the hundreds of weak musicians who waste tremendous talent and opportunity, hurt others, turn to addiction and then wrap up all the drama by choking on their vomit and becoming a punchline. For those reasons alone, I'd take one Ringo over a hundred John Bonhams, Jimi Hendrixes and Amy Winehouses, even as I quibble over his talent. Let's keep things in perspective.
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  #296  
Old 06-29-2012, 07:39 AM
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Spot on. We might read a lot of this here, but not expressed as effectively.

... and we don't know that Ringo would have been better with lessons. Philly Joe Jones declined to give Moonie lessons because he knew it would hinder more than help (must have been an amazing teacher). Not so easy to guess the synergies that make for musical magic - sometimes the logical is not ...
I think that Philly Joe knew that it would be a waste of time. Let's face it Moon didn't have all that great an attention span. He would have loved computer games. His style of play matched his band and the era that he came up in. Rock was wide open then and thanks to the Beatles a lot of British groups were allowed more freedom than they might have gotten otherwise. Moon was one of my early heroes but I can't imagine him playing a half time shuffle or a ballad. It would have been fun to hear though. He would have made it interesting if not authentic.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:18 AM
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I think that Philly Joe knew that it would be a waste of time. Let's face it Moon didn't have all that great an attention span. He would have loved computer games. His style of play matched his band and the era that he came up in. Rock was wide open then and thanks to the Beatles a lot of British groups were allowed more freedom than they might have gotten otherwise. Moon was one of my early heroes but I can't imagine him playing a half time shuffle or a ballad. It would have been fun to hear though. He would have made it interesting if not authentic.
Great comment, Mark. "He would have made it interesting if not authentic" is one of the most inspiring comments you could make to a self taught drummer.

That's exactly what self-taught play is all about IMO. Many self taught players are not at all in demand but if we can come across the right bunch who are at a similar level with musical chemistry (as Moonie did) then the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts.

BTW, I am Polly and replying to you ... long story :)
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