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  #41  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:12 AM
Stu_Strib
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Stanton Moore plays jazz, sure, but not really the type I was talking about. I was mainly speaking about the old 40-60s bop guys and who now days is taking that "feel" and incorporating it into modern recordings.

So far I have 3 recordings with Bill Stewart and I can't imagine it get any better.

More info on Joey Baron please. What should I listen to? I can't imagine that Peter Erskine is not on the same level as this guy! Peter Erskine, to me, is the epitome of old school meets new school.

So in my fledgling jazz collection of "new legends" I have actively sought out and purchased stuff featuring Bill Stewart, Jeff Watts and Jeff Hamilton (all superb!). Next up I suppose is Joey Baron.
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  #42  
Old 03-17-2006, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Well... I can tell you I have seen Susie play a lot... I think she is the drummer I have seen that has koncked me out the most on a first impression... I mean I went NUTS... ha, ha, ha...

When I mean subtle, is not the playing itself... but how fast you recognize the concept in someone's work... with someone like Susie you inmediately go "Whoa..."... someone like Nash it's more AFTER you listen a couple of times "hmmm that was a nice approach on doing that... that could have swinged different", etc. it is a lot more subdued... it's like comparing Bill Bruford to Phil Rudd... Nash is like a Phil Rudd of jazz.

Yes... risktaking has never been the mainstream... but nevertheless I am not seeing as much inventiveness being PUSHED the same way it was, say 25-30 years ago... when inventive stuff, regardless of style, be it Liberation Orchestra, Carla Bley, Sam Rivers, John Zorn, heck even the ECM explosion, etc... was NOT yet recognized and followed as they are now... of course it is much easier to talk about this in HINDSIGHT... I would have loved to BE THERE at the time.

I am not seeing such a strong movement of talent "pushing it" as much... yes there are many young people doing music with freshness and vitality and even technical brilliance... but considering the generality... I think the risk taking and inventiveness have mellowed a bit in the latter generations.

Anyway, I think Bill Stwart is the poster figure for contemporary bop drumming.
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  #43  
Old 03-17-2006, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guillermo
When I mean subtle, is not the playing itself... but how fast you recognize the concept in someone's work... with someone like Susie you inmediately go "Whoa..."... someone like Nash it's more AFTER you listen a couple of times "hmmm that was a nice approach on doing that... that could have swinged different", etc. it is a lot more subdued... it's like comparing Bill Bruford to Phil Rudd... Nash is like a Phil Rudd of jazz.
That makes sense, I hear you man. 'Nash is a Phil Rudd of Jazz' is pretty good, I really lol'd! For me though, the more I listen to Nash, Jeff Hamilton, Kenny Washington, etc. I just want to hear the ACTUAL cats- Max, Mel Lewis, et. al. But that's just me, I know there's a good chunk of the Jazz consuming population that wants to hear the same pattern over and over again in the same way Max was playing it in 1945. I'm just not one of those people. I saw Kenny Washington with Jackie McLean a few years back and was bored to tears by Kenny because I had already heard Max do the licks he was doing on recordings from 50 YEARS AGO=) Nash is the same, he did a clinic once where I went to College and he talked about stuff that anyone who's hear the Charlie Parker stuff already knew. Seriously, 'modern drumming' not exactly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guillermo
Yes... risktaking has never been the mainstream... but nevertheless I am not seeing as much inventiveness being PUSHED the same way it was, say 25-30 years ago... when inventive stuff, regardless of style, be it Liberation Orchestra, Carla Bley, Sam Rivers, John Zorn, heck even the ECM explosion, etc... was NOT yet recognized and followed as they are now... of course it is much easier to talk about this in HINDSIGHT... I would have loved to BE THERE at the time.

I am not seeing such a strong movement of talent "pushing it" as much... yes there are many young people doing music with freshness and vitality and even technical brilliance... but considering the generality... I think the risk taking and inventiveness have mellowed a bit in the latter generations.
In order to see what's being pushed you need to look to Europe also. Things are happening now worthy of what was happening 25-30 years agao, problem is, no one cares. You're obviously interested in this kind of music, but you don't know about all the stuff that's happening, and it's not your fault! It really IS getting harder and harder to find it. You know Charlie has released a new LMO album, right and that he only releases them when he's pissed at something, right?

I just listed a current bunch of real envelope pushers in my last post- here's some more:Mats Gustaffsen, Frode Gjerstad, Atomic, Scorch Trio, Rune Carlssen,Lars Göran Ullander, The Thing, Sten Sandell, Peter Brotzmann, Evan Parker and Americans like Ken Vandermark, William Parker, Michael Blake, Tim Berne and Zorn (who is STILL relevant, IMO.)
The talent and pushing is there, but you really have to look. These are a good start (Ken Vandermark alone has a dozen projects that are worth looking into). I'd be more than happy to give reccomendations on any of these guys for anyone interested, though, as I said, some of the CDs might be hard to find. I really think that many of these people I've mentioned are on the level with say, Carla Bley. Labels like Thirsty Ear, Okka Disc, Rune Grammaphone, FMP, AUM Fidelity and Zorn's Tzadik are constantly releasing boundry stretching stuff, with a concept. ECM was about a concept too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guillermo
Anyway, I think Bill Stewart is the poster figure for contemporary bop drumming.
Agreed. There's nothing I hate more though than a drummer blatently ripping off Bill, it's so arrestingly obvious when it happens.

G
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  #44  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:09 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
More info on Joey Baron please. What should I listen to? I can't imagine that Peter Erskine is not on the same level as this guy! Peter Erskine, to me, is the epitome of old school meets new school.

So in my fledgling jazz collection of "new legends" I have actively sought out and purchased stuff featuring Bill Stewart, Jeff Watts and Jeff Hamilton (all superb!). Next up I suppose is Joey Baron.
Sorry to hear about your money spent on Jeff Hamilton=)

As for Erskine, read what I said. I said the same level regarding risk taking. Erskine is as risky in his drumming as an accountant is with his calculator. He's a great player, but he's not a risk taker, Joey Baron is. Listen to any number of albums with Joey and imagine Erskine sitting in. lol.

That said, here are some Joey Reccomendations:
John Zorn's acoustic Masada- any/all
John Zorn's 'Spy vs Spy'
Tim Berne's 'Diminutive Mysteries' and 'Fractured Fairy Tales'
Enrico Pieranunzi's 'New Land' and 'Deep Down'
Bill Frisell's 'Live' and 'Music for the Films of Buster Keaton vols 1 and 2'
John Tayor's 'Rosslyn'
his own 'Raised Pleasure Dot' and Tounge in Groove'

There are a ton of great albums with Joey, I'd reccomend a Masada one first, probably. Try either Masada 1 or First Live, those are the most 'normal'. I've seen Joey a bunch of times in concert and he was just here in Toronto for a master class last month. For you Candians (or those wishing to travel) he'll be in Montreal June 29th with Masada.

Good luck,
G

Last edited by jazzgregg; 03-17-2006 at 09:50 PM.
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  #45  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:37 PM
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rendezvous_drummer rendezvous_drummer is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
Stanton Moore plays jazz, sure, but not really the type I was talking about. I was mainly speaking about the old 40-60s bop guys and who now days is taking that "feel" and incorporating it into modern recordings.
Ooooooo ok thanks man, i see what ye mean
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  #46  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg

Listen to any number of albums with Joey and imagine Erskine sitting in. lol.
Yes quite possible - both played the same stuff with John Scofield - both great, no problem. Joey is more experimental (Jack style....) - Peter more technical (Morello style...)

I love both as you can imagine...

Bernhard
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  #47  
Old 03-17-2006, 10:04 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernhard
Yes quite possible - both played the same stuff with John Scofield - both great, no problem. Joey is more experimental (Jack style....) - Peter more technical (Morello style...)

I love both as you can imagine...

Bernhard
Bernhard,
Thanks for posting all those great photos! I was referring to Joey's more experimental stuff, of course. They are 2 very different drummers and I think hearing Erskine in Masada or with Tim Berne would not really work.
G
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  #48  
Old 03-17-2006, 10:24 PM
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Guillermo Guillermo is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

man this forum is great.. so many people to learn from... just look at those pics!... ha, ha, ha.

Jazz Gregg, I know those artists and really, really like them... specially Peter Brotzmann, Evan Parker and Ken Vandermark...

Remember, I mentioned TWO trends going in jazz drumming... almost all of those you mentioned I fit on the second cluster, with the likes of people like Previtte, etc...

All my comments on pushing boundaries were about the first group...

And Bernard's analogy of peter Erskine and Joey Baron could not be more accurate... I love it here!
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  #49  
Old 03-17-2006, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guillermo
All my comments on pushing boundaries were about the first group...
Ok, fair enough, I agree then.=) I don't listen to much of that first group if I can help it, as I said, I go to the source. Jazz should be moving forward, not staying in the same place, IMO. It is part of what I think makes it what it is, plus, it needs to be that way to keep it fresh. Of course, that might mean that we don;t like some of the places it goes (I hate 'smooth jazz' more than anything in the world. anything), but it MUST go somewhere, IMO.
Consider this: I have a buddy who likes heavy metal. He tells me who does what etc. and I don't really pay attention- BUT I've learned a few things: bands like KISS and Motley Crue WANT to make new music, but the fans only want to hear the old stuff. To me, people like Nash et. al have made a career on being a 'nostalgia act' like these metal bands have turned into, know what I mean?
And if no one has yet, Guillermo, let me welcome you to the forum!

G

p.s. Erskine was the best drummer for Weather Report, IMO=)
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  #50  
Old 03-18-2006, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

I love Joey Baron. Favorites are Masada live at Jerusalem 1994, Live at Seville 2001, live at Tonic 2000. All are under John Zorn's name. I would also throw in Naked City. That's a great one. Not everyone's cup of tea, but give it a shot. You might love it. I do.
And Bill Stewart is my favorite modern drummer. Contemporary bop drumming is exactly the label I would put on him. Even his funkier stuff, he plays with a be bop sensibillity. It's like he's taken the language of Tony Williams, Elvin Jones and the touch of Paul Motian and he plays it all like Philly Joe Jones. Beautiful, beautiful drumming. Everything Bill touches is fabulous.
I guess, to summarize, I love Bill Stewart's playing, eh?
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  #51  
Old 03-18-2006, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

thanks!

Hey Joey Baron and Bill Stewart are my some faves as well... when I noticed Joey at first was with some of his more free stuff like with Bill Frisell and Kermit Discroll... also Masada... then digging into my record collection out of curiosity from this man's playing, I found out Grace Under Pressure by John Scofield wich I had listened for years, and somehow THOUGHT it was Idris Muhammad... as well as other more traditional recordings with him on... OHHHHH! That's when I got why I loved his playing so much...

It has fundamentals... many guys strive in playing "FREE music" yet they simply DON'T PLAY...

Like an abstract painter, one should evolve... learning the fundamentals first... like a portrait or drawing and THEN EXPLORING and UNLEARNING sort to say... guys like Joey and Dejohnette and Bill ARE like that... they PLAYED and went from 1 to 10 without cutting corners... so when they play and start to go OUT THERE there is sense behind what they do.
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  #52  
Old 03-18-2006, 05:08 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg
One of the baddest drummers on the planet today is based in Chicago- Hamid Drake. He's probably a little 'out' for many of you though. Ken Vandermark is a killer reed player and great bandleader from Chicago as well. Same with the 'out' though.

I'm not sure I understand, Stu, with the 50's-60's influence? Some of these posts seem confusing the way I'm interpreting it.
G
Jazzgregg,

Hamid Drake is one bad mofo; I've just recently discovered this guy, but I'm loving his style--actually, I've been listening to this group called Chicago Underground (duo, trio, quartet, and orchestra) for some time now. Essentially, I can sense similarties between the drummers, which both are from Chicago (surprise, surprise.) I was wondering if you can recommend me some more of Hamid's work, so far I've heard most of the William Parker quartet stuff.
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  #53  
Old 03-18-2006, 09:38 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernhard
Yes quite possible - both played the same stuff with John Scofield - both great, no problem.
Bernhard
And both very much balding!


Jazzgregg, I understand your smiley, but what's wrong with Jeff Hamilton? Do not like his 'sell-out' style of playing for Krall and Buble? I really enjoy his playing on Scott Hamilton's "Tenor Shoes". I bought it on iTunes, and thought it was new (they have posted dates, and not actual recorded dates sometimes) but I think I read it was from the early 80s. I really like the sound on that recording.

I guess my own playing lines up more with Erskine than it would Joey. I leave the risk taking to the practice room ;-)

I have such a fledgling jazz collection (even though I've had it in the back of my head for 20+ years or so, I've finally sought to go after it more) that I feel like those kids on the rock side who think they discovered the greatest thing ever! (sorry finn, gonna steal it again) "Dude, I heard this new guitarist, he's really great. His name is Jimmi something!" Compared to jazzgreggs immense experience in this area, I feel like one of those punk rock kids discovering The Sex Pistols or something ;-)



Stu
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  #54  
Old 03-18-2006, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by red tag
Jazzgregg,

Hamid Drake is one bad mofo; I've just recently discovered this guy, but I'm loving his style--actually, I've been listening to this group called Chicago Underground (duo, trio, quartet, and orchestra) for some time now. Essentially, I can sense similarties between the drummers, which both are from Chicago (surprise, surprise.) I was wondering if you can recommend me some more of Hamid's work, so far I've heard most of the William Parker quartet stuff.
Red Tag,
Yeah, Hamid is one of the bad ones, that's for sure! He's got a heavy reggae and rock influence happening and is a very muscular player on the set. One of the only guys around, I hear, with a strong 3, very much against Jazz which makes his phrasing stand out.
Chicago Underground is great and Parker's Quartet was how my wife learned to like both Drake and Parker. here are some more you might want to try:

William Parker:...and William Danced; Scrapbook; Piercing the Veil (duet between Parker and Drake- HIGHLY recommended!)

Peter Brotzmann (not for the weak=): Little Birds Have Fast Hearts No. 1and No.2;
Aoyama Crows;The Dried Rat- Dog (duo with Drake); Live at the Empty Bottle; Die Like a Dog; Never Too Late but ALways Too Early

Anything by Ken Vandermark's DKV trio

Mats Gustafsson- For Don Cherry

Fred Anderson: The Missing Link; The Milwaukee Tapes Vol. 1;Birdhouse;
Live at the Velvet Lounge; On The Run

(In case anyone is starting to wonder after all these recommendations I give, I do in fact have an enormous CD collection=)

For me, my favorite Darke stuff is the Parker stuff and the Brotzmann stuff. Drake works SO well with William Parker that anything with both of them should be heard. Hamid is also a duo master.

Enjoy!

G
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  #55  
Old 03-18-2006, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Jazzgregg, I don't know man, I started with Tony Williams and DeJohnette and felt like a bunch of doors opened and got tuned in early. It made me want to hear a lot of other stuff I never would have listened to. It didn't stunt my growth. I still wanted some Art Blakey. But now I also wanted to know about Rashied Ali. But I agree with your Wynton retro Monk vibe complaint. I get that his music is all retreads and retreads stunt the look ahead. I get it. I also like alot of the Knitting Factory and Chicago free school music you seem to like, even if some of that can be a fake vibe too when some of the smaller guys try to pick up on what the main guys are doing and do it wrong. Do you get Knit TV? Some of that stuff is pretty bad. So we're probably agreeing about most jazz styles of today.

But man those were pretty hard slams you laid on Erskine and Hamilton. Even with your set of rules you have to give props to Erskine for Weather Report. How about those first Steps Ahead grooves? When it came out that was considered ahead of its time. I also dont think Mintzer would be hangin' out with guys who play like accountants. To me, Hamilton and Lewis are pretty different. Lewis was a major groove big band guy. That Thad and Mel groove he layed down on "Mornin' Reverend" on Live at the Village Vanguard was major on all levels. Yeah, Hamilton's grooves are influenced by Lewis, but Hamilton is also into another bag. Jeff Hamilton comes off to me more like a horn outliner guy like big band guys of yesterday. This style kind of fits more with his big band since it's kind of like a Basie tribute band anyways. I've seen Hamilton in small group too. There was nothin' mushy about his uptempo stuff. He's also pretty creative. His playing in the LA 4 where he replaced Shelley Manne was adventurous for sure. People just don't hear that now because he's with this big band.

I know you are one of these challenge me guys and thats cool. But I think you're simplifying the reps of some good musicians. Erskine especially doesn't deserve to be slapped around.
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  #56  
Old 03-18-2006, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Jazzgregg, I correct myself that you did give props to Erskine for Weather Report. Sorry about that. But calling him an accountant was a slap. But we agree that risk taking is what jazz is supposed to be about. But man, all creative stuff doesn't have to be a John Zorn cook out. Thats just one slice. Also alot of that music has become a safe style that is sold as a product too. Is this really risk taking anymore? Its like a name brand now. Alot of people think Vandermark started being safer after he got all that grant money. His whole scene's like a product now too. How about history? Art Ensemble of Chicago was on the fringe until they went on the Today Show one time and people started seein' it like something else. This is what I like about Ali. He always has kept it real even if it meant having to play other music sometime to keep what he loved fresh. I went on your website. It's real nice. Do you have any downloads on it?
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  #57  
Old 03-19-2006, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Gregg- You seem like a really smart guy, and I respect your opinion, but man, there's something hip about the stuff that Jeff Hamilton plays. Even if it's old school (some might say square) there's something cool about just laying down a huge swinging groove and letting soloists ride on top of that. That's his artistic statement- Philly Joe Jones and Max Roach, not Hamid Drake's adventures into the unknown. Not really any less valid, I find both equally pleasing to listen to at different times...
You live in Toronto, you must be familiar with Terry Clarke? I wonder what you'd think of him- he's my favorite Canadian player. You'd have a hard time finding a better drummer anywhere.
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  #58  
Old 03-19-2006, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg
Matt,
I never actually called Erskine an accountant at all. It doesn't mean anything else BUT safe, plus, it was a metaphor, saying Erskine was AS risky AS an accountant. Then again, how creative is your accountant with your taxes? =)
I wouldn't know man. My tax stuff is going to be pretty simple. I'm 16 (lol).

Knit TV is Knitting Factory television from BET on Jazz. We used to get it in North Carolina, but not here in Michigan. Sometimes it would be perfect. But alot of times it was just real sad. And Miles played Cyndi Lauper covers because he could. When you create a half dozen styles by yourself (imo) everybody should just step back and see if it works. I think this is why alot of people put up with Ornette's Prime Time band.

Yeah, you're right this whole thing about young guys trying to sound like they are 100 years old as their main gig IS pretty tired. Nobody in my family is any kind of Wynton fan. My dad knew Wynton and Branford when they were comin' up in New Orleans and my grandad used to play some with Ellis. The report was that they were all nice guys except for Wynton who was a know it all back then even when he was like 13 years old. Dad says a bunch of them even chased him down Royal Street one day. He also said that when Wynton got big that jazz just stopped cold. I believe that.

But then man I look at the players in my own family. My dad has played every kind of jazz there is and he likes it all equally the same. And when he plays an older style like Bix or something, he brings somethin' new to it. Then we spend all this time in Romania where everybody is trying to be like cutting edge avant garde or Laswell style fusion and he just jumps into that too. But he used to run a monster big band that played in the Woody, Buddy Rich style. In other words the kind you probably don't like. Mom says he would lead a gig with that band and then run and play improv multifonic trombone music by himself in a art house. She asked him how he could make such a switch and he said he felt that both musics came from the same place.

I asked my musician family members about all the different music they do last Christmas when they were gettin' on me about just bein into mostly Coltrane and Miles and they even encouraged me to stick for awhile with WFD, which is not even a music event but something that introduces you to alot of interesting musicians. They answered that jazz especially was too small to have cliques and all the fighting in it was crazy. Its kind of like animals that eat their young. Or as Grandad said, animals who eat their elders.
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  #59  
Old 03-19-2006, 06:23 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theduke86
Gregg- You seem like a really smart guy, and I respect your opinion, but man, there's something hip about the stuff that Jeff Hamilton plays. Even if it's old school (some might say square) there's something cool about just laying down a huge swinging groove and letting soloists ride on top of that. That's his artistic statement- Philly Joe Jones and Max Roach, not Hamid Drake's adventures into the unknown. Not really any less valid, I find both equally pleasing to listen to at different times...
You live in Toronto, you must be familiar with Terry Clarke? I wonder what you'd think of him- he's my favorite Canadian player. You'd have a hard time finding a better drummer anywhere.
Andrew,
You're still young, someday you'll be able to put things in perspective. Saying that it would be hard to find a better drummer anywhere is just silly. There's no better, remember? Only different and I'm not answering that Terry Clarke question because you have a good idea of my tastes. You need to look harder, even in Canada.

Have you heard much Mel Lewis? Jake Hanna? Shelly Manne? I'd say no judging by the Hamilton statement. Old school isn't square, it's just older. What's square is cats making a career on someone elses vibe. What you hear as hip in Hamilton is the Mel Lewis part. Listen to THAT guy, seriously. What makes Bill Stewart great to you? How about Brian Blade? Is it okay if I'm an artist and my painting looks just like a Renior, but more like my attempt at it? To me, no it isn't. I just came from a nice evening gig where I played standards and it was great, it was fun. It was at an art show and although I didn't like everything displayed, it was all individual. That's what I ask.

G
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  #60  
Old 03-19-2006, 06:25 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith

Yeah, you're right this whole thing about young guys trying to sound like they are 100 years old as their main gig IS pretty tired.
And you're 16? Nice.

G
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  #61  
Old 03-19-2006, 10:22 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg
S
ASometimes I just can't resist though. Like when Wynton is mentioned or someone pipes in with a reccomendation reccomending the only album they've heard by the artist and so on. I know you do too, Stu, I've read your posts!

G
Well you obviously have a much higher understanding and regard for jazz than I (although I'm no slouch, I just have a fledgling understanding of the huge discography). My personal likes for Wynton have much more to do with the fact that I've actually played with him! At that time though, I was a young immature drummer into Journey and Loverboy (1984 anyone?).

Yes it is all an opinion, but I am not basing my Wynton recommendations on one album. I like "Black Codes" very much, and recommend it heartily to anyone intersted in Jazz that is just getting into it. I think it is a very logical progression from rock stuff into Jazz. I also think this is why I have such an affinity for Hard Bop, as it is a much smoother transistion into Jazz.

I've checked out some Joey Baron, and for all his talent, all I can say is "not my thing". I have several Scofield recordings, and I seem to not care as much about the drumming (except Bill Stewart's) because most the stuff I have is more straight forward and funky than jazzy.

And you can be a dick all you want, I'm a fully grown and have been known to be sorta of one myself on here at times ;-)


I just don't hear anything to hate about Jeff Hamilton. Again, I consider myself to be an expert rock/blues drummer and a higher end jazz drummer. I seem to be able to spot talent. Examples of sloppy playing, please?

Also, I think it is just an issue of taste, but I quite LIKE rehashing old ideas. I'm not really a progressive, and really don't care to mess with a good thing. That stuff from the 50s was great, so what's the point of changing it? I quite like the fact that modern guys can play the stuff as a tip-o-the-hat to the masters before them. I also happen to really enjoy playing cover tunes in rock/blues bands. So I guess I don't gripe about the "tired" sound of guys trying to be like the hard bop era. After all, that was the whole point of my thread. Help me find modern guys playing in the style of 50s bop/hard bop! Let's not forget the point of the thread in the first place!

I agree that smooth jazz is pretty crappy, but I wouldn't kick a smooth jazz gig out of bed, if you know what I mean. I would expect to get flamed out of this thread if I said "Hey check out some sweet Kenny G!", but Wynton?

Greg, you should check out Matt Smith's website. He may only be 16, but he runs circles around most of us. He is from a jazz family and been around it all his life. I've been playing for 22 years and I'm 36, and I think Matt has more experience than me. He is the RARE occassion that age really is irrelevant on Drummerworld threads.

Finally, I would really like to just vent and say that buying music online is such a pain. You get NO liner notes and I spend hours trying to find who played on what track of which album! It makes it so frustrating trying to talk about certain drummers in here, when you aren't sure who it was playing.

Last edited by Stu_Strib; 03-19-2006 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:54 AM
fly fly is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

JazzGreg- I pretty much agree with you on this Jeff Hamilton thing, I mean Obviously he can swing and he has a good feel but yes he is just copping off Mel Lewis, Philly, Shelly Man, and to my ears also some Vernel Fournier( I saw Hamilton play Poininciana live) and yea I dont dig it when shit is kind of directly beeing ripped off.

As far as rehashing old ideas I mean in can totally be done in a fresh way. I mean look at someone like Joe Lovano, or even Brad Mehldau playing standards in a really fresh way , this is just my opinion.

Do you play with guys like David Braid over in TO? just wondering cause I tend to catch that guy play alot when he comes over to Vancouver.
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Old 03-19-2006, 02:18 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly
I pretty much agree with you on this Jeff Hamilton thing, I mean Obviously he can swing and he has a good feel but yes he is just copping off Mel Lewis, Philly, Shelly Man, and to my ears also some Vernel Fournier and yea I dont dig it when shit is kind of directly beeing ripped off.
No, I can't agree with this. See it the other way: Saxophonists or pianist and bassist are desperately looking for a smooth, brushoriented and swinging supporting drummer.... their kind of jazz.....

Mel and Shelly are gone for a long time - not available for gigs anymore - so they take one of the rare living legends, so Jeff is the first call of course....why not. He and Pete and Lewis Nash brings it like nobody else!!!!!

Just saw Joe Lovano with Lewis Nash and Peter Erskine with Diana Krall and Jeff Hamilton with his own Big Band!!!!

Bernhard
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Old 03-19-2006, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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..

Mel and Shelly are gone for a long time - not available for gigs anymore - so they take one of the rare living legends, so Jeff is the first call of course....why not. He and Pete and Lewis Nash brings it like nobody else!!!!!
I mentioned this earlier too, and while I don't care for Hamilton's style, there are people that want a replication of the the old cats for their music. When you want a sound like that, you have your Nash's and Hamilton's.

G
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Old 03-19-2006, 04:18 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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No, I can't agree with this. See it the other way: Saxophonists or pianist and bassist are desperately looking for a smooth, brushoriented and swinging supporting drummer.... their kind of jazz.....

Mel and Shelly are gone for a long time - not available for gigs anymore - so they take one of the rare living legends, so Jeff is the first call of course....why not. He and Pete and Lewis Nash brings it like nobody else!!!!!

Just saw Joe Lovano with Lewis Nash and Peter Erskine with Diana Krall and Jeff Hamilton with his own Big Band!!!!

Bernhard
This in an interesting point...

If it's a rock drummer playing on a song that calls for a basic 8th note 4/4 groove, and he just lays it in... and it is well done, we acknowledge that as "playing for the song"?... even if it's been done one million times before?

The same can happen in any other style... sometimes playing what is called for means digging into a style or a traditional way of doing things... I have never heard someone say the drum parts of "Addicted to Love" or "Highway to hell" were SPECIALLY UN-original... they are just what they have to be.

So from that perspective, I think that statement is an interesting point.
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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I mentioned this earlier too, and while I don't care for Hamilton's style, there are people that want a replication of the the old cats for their music. When you want a sound like that, you have your Nash's and Hamilton's.

G
OK, I'm gonna try to say this right. I just wish I could do this as smartly as some of you guys with right words and such. That's why I got my dad with me right now. These are my opinions but he has a better way of putting it together. These essays that jazzgregg brings us are above my writing skills (lol).

I think its more about this and I hear this from my dad all the time. Jazz history is bein' written right now for the rest of history. After Miles left the fusion in the 70s it went disco and jazz was bad except for some Freddie Hubbard (imo). Then Wynton came and some people said thank you, the older stuff again. My family thinks its real important to get history about jazz correct and dad says it was time in the 80s for people to step back and get this stuff in school books because the old jazz books were written like comics and nobody was goin' to study those books in a real school. But jazz wasn't supposed to just stop.

The problem was Wynton was not supposed to be the guy who did this. He has no education in jazz history and according to dad he used to make stuff up and everybody just went along cause they thought they were supposed to. See, my dad reads research papers at IAJE every year where real historians work real hard to get stuff right. Wynton just talks junk to reporters and his stuff is what is taken as the truth. I think he started off as a great trumpet player but he never made new music and when he went to those wierd new trumpets even that wasn't as good. He was also hateful about racial issues and that wasn't right.

But the biggest problem was he created a whole new group of American jazz guys who didn't think anything new should be created in jazz. They were actually makin' fun of guys like Dave Douglas and alot of the guys jazzgregg likes and tried to keep em from gettin' gigs and such. This is how the war started. Jazzgregg is right, jazz is supposed to be about goin' forward and these new guys didn't want that. Its why Hargrove, Redman and a bunch more don't do much for me. Its been done already by better guys. Sometimes I got so tired of this new old stuff that I started gettin' interested in older rock music like Hendrix and Santana and I was glad I did.

Now (imo) the other side of it is Gregg's group who think the blackboard is supposed to be erased every ten years and if you don't move forward that isn't right to them. I think some of this opinion is reactin' to what was said before. But thats like sayin Beethovens no good because he was 200 years ago and if you play Beethoven you're stupid. My family thinks jazz is too small to have civil wars all the time and there is room for both to exist at the same time. This includes a sincere old school drummer like Hamilton who makes no excuses or complaints about who he is. Sorry if you don't like swingin' big bands Gregg. There not my first choice either but hard swing is good and he swings hard.

I heard some of jazzgregg's music and alot of its pretty cool. Stu seems like a cool guy to me too and I bet he can also seriously play. Duke too. I guess we should always admire the creators but everybody isn't rasied to be one and they have a right to make good CDs too that can be enjoyed when you don't want a challenge. Does this make sense? I don't know anymore. Dad just rolled his eyes and left the room (lol). and I'm not as good as some of you guys think. I still got a whole lot to learn.
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Old 03-19-2006, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Thanks Mattsmith - and your Dad.

(Be happy to have a dad like him - hope he supports your drumming, does he?)

Bernhard
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Old 03-19-2006, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Thanks Mattsmith - and your Dad.

(Be happy to have a dad like him - hope he supports your drumming, does he?)

Bernhard
Thanks Bernhard. Its funny what you say because Boo McAffee from WFD said the same thing about my dad and me when we actually get on each others nerves all the time (lol). This is especially about school work and such. I get to thinking about music so much that I need to be spending more time on biology and history and math. My family supports music careers and my drumming but they want to make sure your really serious about it because its hard life even when things do well. Everybody thinks its about sittin' around playing gigs when its really a lot tougher than that. I watch how my family members go with their careers and it really is up and down sometimes. Like my Dad really dislikes his job now when just two years ago he was a hero in Europe. But he's still the same guy. Thats the way it goes.

Dad thinks I need to spend more time being versatile like gettin' with mallet and keyboard skills that I am only now gettin' around to. He thinks I need to step away a little from jazz and see the good in other music and being a more all around guy, especially in being an expert sight reader. He really gets disgusted that I don't respect classical more but I like Stravinsky and we play this cool piece in school wind ensemble called "postcards" which is alot like that. But we both agree that some of those classical guys standing there like robots for an hour to play one triangle beat is pretty funny.
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Old 03-19-2006, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Originally Posted by jazzgregg
Andrew,
You're still young, someday you'll be able to put things in perspective. Saying that it would be hard to find a better drummer anywhere is just silly. There's no better, remember? Only different and I'm not answering that Terry Clarke question because you have a good idea of my tastes. You need to look harder, even in Canada.

Have you heard much Mel Lewis? Jake Hanna? Shelly Manne? I'd say no judging by the Hamilton statement. Old school isn't square, it's just older. What's square is cats making a career on someone elses vibe. What you hear as hip in Hamilton is the Mel Lewis part. Listen to THAT guy, seriously. What makes Bill Stewart great to you? How about Brian Blade? Is it okay if I'm an artist and my painting looks just like a Renior, but more like my attempt at it? To me, no it isn't. I just came from a nice evening gig where I played standards and it was great, it was fun. It was at an art show and although I didn't like everything displayed, it was all individual. That's what I ask.

G
I would have guessed you'd be cool with Terry's playing- I think he's fabulous. Last time I saw him I thought it sounded like Jack DeJohnette. Technically and creatively speaking, he's awesome. That's why cats like Jim Hall or less well known Canadian heavies like PJ Perry or Chase Sanborn, Neil Swenson etc. hire him- he can play in any style of any drummer (including his own distinctive style), support the soloist and take great solos.
I don't necessarily agree about making a career on someone else's vibe is square. I'm sure you're familiar with Alex Dean, one of the heavier Toronto horn players (Up there with Mike Murley and Kelly Jefferson et al.). Last year on a trip to Toronto, I sat in one one of his masterclasses at Humber College (I have quite a few friends there). He said that north of the border, one must make a career being able to play like someone else. He played 5-6 different solos then to illustrate his point, ranging from Charlie Parker to John Coltrane to Wayne Shorter to Chris Potter. And the more I hear good drummers- they're building off of someone else's vibe. It's incredibly difficult to make a completely creative playing style. Then's only 12 notes in music, and a finite number of ways to arrange them to make new compositions. Obviously we aren't working with the same system on the drums, but the point remains the same. Plus, everyone listens to their influences- it's impossible to avoid being influenced. Now since I'm a younger guy, I'm trying to create my own style out of transcriptions of everyone from Max Roach to Bill Stewart, it's great to play like these guys!
Obviously in the case of Jeff Hamilton, there's a room for his vibe. Or Lewis Nash. Or whatever. Last I checked, Jeff Hamilton gets paid more for jazz gigs than just about anyone. Certainly on this message board, anyways. To answer your question, I'm familiar with all of those drummers, especially Shelly. He's my favorite west coast guy and I've checked his vibe out quite a bit. I love old school drumming- some of my favorites are Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Shelly Manne et al... I think old school stuff is great.... as long as you're doing something with it. Sometimes, when a drummer listens to something, he copies it so much that it becomes a part of him. You could probably say that jazz drumming stopped being completely creative at Jack DeJohnette in the 70's. Would this be wrong? I'd tend to think so, but a healthy argument can be played. All of what us drummers play in the jazz context has been tried and played before and played better. It's the arrangement and different influences that make us individual unique players. For example, one of my current teachers, Tyler Hornby is a well influenced player- sometimes you hear Roy Haynes, sometimes a little Bill Stewart, sometimes Max Roach, sometimes even a little Weckl. Does this mean Ty's not original? I don't think so. Gregg, you may find his drumming derisive and copycat of others but objectively speaking, it's still good.
To use your art comparison, what if a successful writer started using vocabulary reminiscent of Ernest Hemingway? Would it make his novel without worth? Probably not. You have to view art on it's own- objectively without taint from other sources sometimes. When I hear a drummer, I hear what HE'S playing. Not what reminds of Tony Williams forty years ago.
Again, I think you're a smart guy- obviously knowlegable about the jazz idiom. I love that stuff on your website, it's pretty damn cool! If we can't find a middle ground, let's agree to disagree.
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Old 03-19-2006, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg

Stu- As far as refrences to Hamilton's sloppyness, it's the way he plays, to me, man. Any number of recordings (except maybe the Krall stuff so much), especially with the Clayton Hamilton Orchestra.
What about the Scott Hamilton, Tenorshoes cd? I bought that one just on the drum sound alone, not even knowing it was Hamilton on drums.

Quote:
Interesting point about 'Black Codes' (and Hard Bop) being an easy gateway to Jazz from rock. Why do you say that ( I'd likley agree, but I was wondering why you think so!)?.
Well without an indepth analysis, I just really think it, well, kinda rocks ;-) It has a big powerful drum sound, lots of funk influenced grooves, just an all out great album (and it swings!) I guess, in layman terms, is it isn't "boring" or disconnected as some free jazz stuff tends to get for some people. Chambers of the Tain is a great drum piece. I'd like to hear more Tain stuff.

But I do disagree heartily with something you said. You can't deny something's greatness just because it is old. Wynton DID record that, and it WAS/IS great and you can't take that away, no matter how many shifts in Jazz occur. I quite liked his band at the Apple Computer convention and gladly snapped up those 2 tunes on iTunes when they became available. That drummer is great. His name is Ali something?

Quote:
That's why I found the Neo Swing crap of the 90's (what, like 2 weeks somewhere in there) a load of horseshit.
Ok, I have to tell you, I dabbled with the guys in Cherry Poppin' Daddies. Not much, just kinda hung out with a few of them, tried really hard to get in on a session, blah blah. They were all very accomplished jazz students at the University of Oregon. Yeah, it was crap, but they were all pretty devoted to jazz and were looking to get it into the mainstream. The trumpet player (Dana Heitman, I believe was his name) was destined for greatness. Or great as the Pacific NW can let you be.

Good times!


Quote:
I know where you're coming from, Stu and whether you're a Jazz guy or not, this discussion is a typical 'modernist v.s. traditionalist' discussion I've personally had many times (surprise, surprise=).
Actually I'm not disparaging either, nor do I fit into either group. For this thread though, I was just looking for guys who might be more traditionalist.

Quote:
I was serious in reccomending the Blue Note remastered stuff though. Sounds great and music by the people for whom the term 'Hard Bop' was invented to describe. Seriously.
Here's what I own from Blue Note (some of it remastered):

Lee Morgan, The Complete Blue Note Sessions
Art Blakey (too many to mention, he's one of my faves)
Cannonball Adderly, Quintet Live in Chicago (I love this cd!), Something Else (one of my best cds!)
Brubeck, Time Out (obviously great)
Dexter Gordon, Go! (remastered!)
Horace Silver (Blowin' the Blues away remastered), Silver's Serenade
Miles Davis (Kind of Blue)
Coltrane (nearly everything he's ever recorded through mixture of beg, borrow, steal, buy)
Thelonius Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall
Joe Henderson In 'n Out, Straight no Chaser...

and some others that are on my computer back in the states. Also I have lots of one ofs of other guys from other labels, but I always keep coming back to the Blue Note stuff.

Thanks for all the input though, I've really learned a lot of new names to check out. My list is pretty common (Horace Silver was really the only guy I'd never heard of until recently). I did play in a pretty high level Jazz band in high school growing up (no snickering, we played serious stuff, one of the best in the state) so I was familiar with a lot of these standards. Of course when you are 14-18 and learning drums after 6 years of violin, the names, composers, song titles all tend to elude you at the time.
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:52 PM
fly fly is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Greg
Man I have seen that band play before, it was great. Yea Froman is the man!! I have checked out my fair share of Metalwood, I mean living in Vancouver its just like a given thing over here. What is some other Froman stuff I should check out? My drum teacher right now actually studied with him, and I hope to also in a few years when I move outta Vancouver hopefully over to Berklee.

Now I didnt mean any disrexpect towords Jeff Hamilton or Lewis Nash but if I want to listen to this kind of style I can listen to Jimmy Cobb heres a guy who I have never seen anyone mention in this forum which is a disgrace. Jimmy Cobb is still around and he still swings and its a beutiful thing. There are also plenty of other guys who can play extremly well in this stylistic idiom of "straight ahead" or "old school" it doesnt just revolve around Jeff Hamilton. I mean look at Greg Hutchinson or Kareem Riggins, I think both these guys played with Ray Brown after Jeff and these are cats who can honestly play like Philly but they dont wear it on their sleeves if you know what I mean.

Duke- I think I have talked to you about this before to do with Terry Clarke. I mean I can never stop listening to that classic Jim Hall trio recording. I actually heard this other recoding that was relatively recent with Jim, Terry Clarke, Chris Potter, and a string quartet. I was pretty floored. Terry Clarke is pretty hard not to dig, I mean just listen to his time, with that guy its all about his time.

Stu- Yea Ali Jackson is his name. He is one drummer who kind of plays traditionally who I can dig. He is a master of playing things that are so down to the point. Surprisingly I havenet checked out the stuff with Wynton. The stuff I checked out ALOT is that new Kurt Rosenwinkel cd called Deep Song. Ali is on like just over have the tunes , the other half is Jeff Ballard. Myself being a huge Jeff guy was at first a little bit peeved but after listening to the recording for like 4-5 months I can really appreciate his playings.

Alright , Gotta go practice.
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Old 03-19-2006, 11:53 PM
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:57 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

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Greg
Man I have seen that band play before, it was great. Yea Froman is the man!! I have checked out my fair share of Metalwood, I mean living in Vancouver its just like a given thing over here. What is some other Froman stuff I should check out? My drum teacher right now actually studied with him, and I hope to also in a few years when I move outta Vancouver hopefully over to Berklee.
Tommy Smith's 'Reminiscence', 'Forward Motion', Misty Morning and No Time' and 'Standards' (good luck finding this one I got mine in a dinky shop in Gloucester Mass.)

Chris Tarry's 'Sevyns' and 'Unition'

Lazlo Gardony's 'The Secret' (again, good luck, unfortunately)

Rick Margitza's 'Heart of Hearts'

Forman is a true master and yet so unrecognized. Even though he's lived in NY 22 years, he is, IMO Canada's #1 drummer. Those of you who have't seen him, you should. Who's your teacher, fly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fly

Now I didnt mean any disrexpect towords Jeff Hamilton or Lewis Nash but if I want to listen to this kind of style I can listen to Jimmy Cobb heres a guy who I have never seen anyone mention in this forum which is a disgrace. Jimmy Cobb is still around and he still swings and its a beutiful thing. There are also plenty of other guys who can play extremly well in this stylistic idiom of "straight ahead" or "old school" it doesnt just revolve around Jeff Hamilton. I mean look at Greg Hutchinson or Kareem Riggins, I think both these guys played with Ray Brown after Jeff and these are cats who can honestly play like Philly but they dont wear it on their sleeves if you know what I mean.
Exactly.


And thanks very much to those who said they dug my stuff. I DO sell it too, you know=)

G
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:15 AM
fly fly is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

My teacher right now is Bernie Arai, i think hes on this one Chris Tarry recording with Chris Gestrin. I think what Bernie did was take some lessons with Froman and then Froman hooked him up with Bill Stewart.
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:31 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz? (horrifically long, anyone shocked?=)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzgregg
I'll leave this for now and respond to fly next post. I feel what with stirring up xxxx, I should be responsible for it=)
G
Naw man, you talk about stuff you know and you REALLY are a challenge me guy. I think you are answering to more now because you kind of got a free pass for awhile because you were so upfront about your view and your vibe that some people didn't know how to follow up, because drummerworld forum is very polite. Also I don't think people know how to handle upfront talk without thinkin somebodys trying to hurt their feelings or something. But who cares about that cause your not tryin' to do that. Keep it comin'.

Hey man I would much more want to have our talks on this thread then some of that other stuff with the more super popular guys. Those guys aren't goin' to read these long posts anyway(lol).
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Old 03-20-2006, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Gregg, I think I read way too much into what you're saying. I find myself agreeing with you on your last post on most counts. Cheers mate. Next time I head down to TO (I'm heading to Montreal or Toronto for sure next year) I'll be sure to look up with one of your shows.
Great thread though guys. By the way, my teacher's site is www.tylerhornby.com
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:07 AM
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I thought RVG was just remaster Blue Note? I only have the stuff from iTunes, so it is impossible to tell. I'm looking at the cover art and it definitely LOOKS like blue note (Dexter Gordon Go! RVG Edition).

See, online music sucks sometimes!

The drummer is great on this one (Billy Higgins??)


EDIT!: I see better now on Horace Silver "Blowin' the Blues Away", the RVG edition, it is Blue Note Label #84017. Which of my posts weren't Blue Note then? Or does RVG do stuff for multiple labels. I can't quite read what it says on the Dexter Gordon one, but it 'looks like' smudged word note (I assumed Blue)
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:21 AM
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz? (horrifically long, anyone shocked?=)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattsmith
Naw man, you talk about stuff you know and you REALLY are a challenge me guy. I think you are answering to more now because you kind of got a free pass for awhile because you were so upfront about your view and your vibe that some people didn't know how to follow up, because drummerworld forum is very polite. Also I don't think people know how to handle upfront talk without thinkin somebodys trying to hurt their feelings or something. But who cares about that cause your not tryin' to do that. Keep it comin'.

Hey man I would much more want to have our talks on this thread then some of that other stuff with the more super popular guys. Those guys aren't goin' to read these long posts anyway(lol).
Matt,
Oh, you mean THAT kind of 'challenge me'....Yeah, that's true. lol. I thought you meant with music...
Agreed man, agreed. Very true. And I'm always up for a good discussion, debate or argument too (gee, really?)


Andrew,
It's probably unlikely you read too much into what I'm saying, I say more than I appear to=).

fly- So your guy studies with Bill now?! That's cool, man. What Tarry recording is it? I love Chris' playing in Metalwood and otherwise, and he's such a nice cat. Froman is one of the best teachers and people I know. If you ever do decide on Berklee, let me know.

Of course, I do have opinions that may piss people off, I know that, and that's fine with me. At the same time, it's important, like Matt said, that it's about the music (or the cereal, or the Wendy's crispy chicken or whatever the topic is), not the person. That doesn't mean we don't learn about the people posting the opinions.
G
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Old 03-20-2006, 08:52 AM
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jazzgregg jazzgregg is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu_Strib
I thought RVG was just remaster Blue Note? I only have the stuff from iTunes, so it is impossible to tell. I'm looking at the cover art and it definitely LOOKS like blue note (Dexter Gordon Go! RVG Edition).

See, online music sucks sometimes!

The drummer is great on this one (Billy Higgins??)


EDIT!: I see better now on Horace Silver "Blowin' the Blues Away", the RVG edition, it is Blue Note Label #84017. Which of my posts weren't Blue Note then? Or does RVG do stuff for multiple labels. I can't quite read what it says on the Dexter Gordon one, but it 'looks like' smudged word note (I assumed Blue)
Stu,
Well, you'll never get great sound from an mp3, no matter where you get it, compared to a nice clean disc. I learned this when I got an ipod....I hate online music, I love packaging too much, though I'm sure my wife would like a dining room instead of a CD library...nah.

Yeah, the RVG series is only Blue Note, but Rudy Van Gelder himself is doing some remastering for other labels, though I'm not sure which ones exactly (not called the RVG series). It's the combination of his remastering (and initial recording) and the right group that will give you what you want from that era, IMO.

Billy Higgins. Yes. Smiling Billy. Doesn't his whole groove smile at your ears? 'Go' is a BN, you're right. Billy was one of the greats and I love Dexter too. Try 'Dexter Calling' with Philly Joe (on Blue Note). That was my first Dex.

It doesn't matter what label the discs you own are on if you like them, but for some, describing a 'Blue Note sound' is like describing an "ECM' sound in that, if you like the label, you like most of the artists.

However, in the interests of furthering your Jazz knowledge (and getting you to put away that Hamilton guy=), here you are:

Lee Morgan, The Complete Blue Note Sessions- not BN (just kidding=)

Art Blakey (too many to mention, he's one of my faves) many are on BN, it depends on the album. Most (all?) Jazz Messengers are BN's, I think.
Cannonball Adderly, Quintet Live in Chicago (I love this cd!)-Verve,not BN (A lot of the Verve Master Series stuff -which my copy of this is- sound pretty good, they have good remastering engineers, though I forget who they are..)
Something Else (one of my best cds!)-BN
Brubeck, Time Out (obviously great)-Columbia, not BN
Dexter Gordon, Go! (remastered!)- BN
Horace Silver (Blowin' the Blues away remastered), Silver's Serenade-BN
Miles Davis (Kind of Blue)- Columbia (depending on the reissue, your copy may sound pristine, or like shit=)
Coltrane (nearly everything he's ever recorded through mixture of beg, borrow, steal, buy) Coltrane recorded only one album for BN, 'Blue Train'. He did a bunch of stuff on Atlantic and Impulse with a few recordings on smaller labels like Bethlehem here and there. The remastered Impulse stuff sounds great, IMO, as does 'Blue Train', but the Atlantic not as good, IMO. Musically, Trane was Trane.
Thelonius Monk and Coltrane Live at Carnegie Hall--BN
Joe Henderson In 'n Out, Straight no Chaser... Polygram, not BN. IMO, this sounds like ass. (sond wise, obviously...)

Look here for more info on the RVG specific stuff:
http://www.doubletimejazz.com/rvg.htm

Did I mention I was a huge record/CD collector and sort of an audiophile?=)
Hope that helps.

G
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Old 03-20-2006, 03:39 PM
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Guillermo Guillermo is offline
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Cannonball Adderley's "Somethin' else" and Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" are the two best sounding recordings I think I have ever heard... specially on a good hi-fi system, full blast.

Many audiophiles like roasting ECM for their massive reverb... I personally think that is part of their character and not one of my CDs from the label has compromised clarity over that... exploring releases of labels is a great way to start learning and picking up the branches of the huge jazz tree.

About Billy Higgins, I love his playing... his album "Soweto" is a constant in my stereo... so quirky and naive at times, but at the same time one of the hardest swinging most sizzling things recorded... it just screams at you "jazz" and transports you to a small room with these guys.

Good jazz tells a story.
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Old 03-22-2006, 12:07 AM
Drad-dog
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Default Re: "New" Legends of Jazz?

Hello folks.

I've been reading this thread and not posting 'cause I wanted to see how the conversation turned out. But here's my comments:

Wynton- Can't stand him. Smug, arrogant, full of BS and his music is passe.

Hamilton- I love this guy. I don't agree that he is unimaginitive. He's fun to watch. BUT, I do agree that he is very much old school and "inside" and sounds a lot like some drummers who came before him, so I can respect a person's opinion if they don't like his style.

Lastly, when I was in school and going through a rigorous stage in my development as a musician, one of the dudes I was jamming with said to me one day, "man, play more like ELVIN!" I was unable to articulate what about that statement bothered me, but now I realise I was pissed because I didn't WANT to sound like Elvin. I LOVE Elvin Jones and always will, but I am not an Elvin clone. He wanted me to cop someone else's vibe, and I'm not into it.

This applies to other types of music too. A rock 'n roll cover band will get more gigs in my town than almost anyone else. We've got a Zeppelin cover band, a Van Halen cover band, and an AC/DC cover band. Fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but I need to be creative in my own way, not someone else's way. Otherwise, I can't get my rocks off.

Jazz moves forward constantly. You can appreciate it's various eras along the way, but there will always be musicians on the forefront who keep it moving along, and good thing they do. Otherwise, we'd all still be listening to King Oliver and Scott Joplin.

This is one of the greatest all time threads!

Cheers.
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