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  #41  
Old 11-23-2009, 11:57 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

I think its because jazz is a very misunderstood music. I know a lot people who would say they play jazz and I would have to strongly disagree. I know a lot of people who have opinions about jazz that have no basis to have ever formed them. The thing that gets me slightly annoyed is when anyone who has payed theyre 20 bucks for a John Riley book starts explaining ride cymbal nuances and the finer points of comping. Petty and childish to become annoyed by someone giving advice, but I dont go into the double bass threads and try and explain how to play 10000000 bpm because I dont really know about that. Honestly though, I for the most part dont say anything unless I see something that I personally think would be detrimental to the person posing the question.
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  #42  
Old 11-24-2009, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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I think its because jazz is a very misunderstood music. I know a lot people who would say they play jazz and I would have to strongly disagree.
Funny thing, isn't it? The band plays jazz. That's not jazz! The band plays rock n roll. You call that rock n roll?? The band plays metal. Pah, that's not metal! The band plays the blues. Man, that ain't the blues.

There's a lot of genre-bending going around and people don't tend to say they play jazzy bluesy metalish countrified rock or whatever. Apart from coming across as overly anal it's a bad marketing move.

In another thread some of us talked about genre labels and Ken noted that their main function is marketing. So it's usually best to describe your music's genre in a way that doesn't lead to audiences being disappointed. Often that means declining to use a catch-all genre label because that can be limiting.

Playing any style of music has little to do with the validity of a person's opinion on a style of music - in non-technical matters.

What matters is if a person has listened to and enjoyed a lot of the music (which, of course, includes players). That's the audience. It's fascinating to find out what people have to say about the music we play. It tells us something about them, it tells us which songs are touching people and which ones don't, and it can tell us something about our bands and ourselves.

Interesting posts, Thaard and Philippe.

Last edited by Pollyanna; 11-24-2009 at 03:00 AM.
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  #43  
Old 11-24-2009, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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I think its because jazz is a very misunderstood music.
I don't agree with this. I think it's because very few people like jazz, for any variety of reasons. You don't have to understand something in order to not like it, and if it does take a certain amount of understanding to like something then who cares? I don't have to understand the intricacies of making a roux to enjoy a bowl of gumbo.

I like jazz. Most people don't. My wife doesn't like it. Just about everyone I know doesn't like it. These are not stupid people, they're mostly well-educated and well-read folks who just don't like jazz. To suggest that they need to attend a series of educational seminars in order to properly appreciate jazz is beyond ridiculous.

Not that anyone's suggesting that.
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  #44  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:02 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

It also tells us that alot about people who really don't listen very heavily to jazz and what is going on in modern jazz and it developments that seriously along the evolutionary path of the music to today and also even more about understanding those elements that those who actually truly play it taking the hard work and homework required like any study of substance and details in life to understand. Especially gets interesting when it also comes to the frauds on the subject of jazz I encounter on the faceless internet as of late with their own unique off base approach, advice and agendas on the jazz subject. Funny enough these same faceless characters of dubious credibility seem to have the MOST to say about it with their above of the real musicians attitude with their POV and advice compared to the actual jazz musicians like I say that really practice the craft in real life and want to share their knowledge,wisdom and experience when it comes up in internet discussion forums.

If your going to truly understand Physics study Physics and don't get a textbook out on studying Home Economics for any hope of success on the subject. Jazz is just the same. It's something you love and develop a passion for and want to learn more about both as a player or listener alike. The more you study and listen carefully the more you learn. No snobery here folks just the honest facts of the case. Learning music is no different than studying to be a Doctor. Take the course and training needed to get the most out of the experience followed by years of practical application in the field {paying your dues}. For the listener it can have the same rewards. The more you listen to it and the more exposure to the more challenging styles within some of the offshoots from the root of the jazz tree the more jewels you uncover.

When I was young the local main library offered weekly free listening appreciation courses on the inner details of jazz music that opened alot the doors about jazz music for me. So you don't have to feel excluded if you don't play a instrument and something like this is great if you do and want to jump in to learning more about a music new to you. Keep a open ear and open mind when encountering something new.....

Britt and Matt are right on the money though............let's let the flood gates of subjective reasoning totally open up and call it ALL jazz so there's no distinction left at all anymore to debate about. Crazy stuff and approach....really is.
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Last edited by Steamer; 11-24-2009 at 04:13 AM.
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  #45  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

At the end of the day there are thousands of genres and sub-genres of music. Some are similar and some are unecessary.

If you love your style of music, it shouldn't whether other people dig it or their opinion. Someone will always dislike or disagree with something you do. I just play the music I love and forget everyone else. Don't get me wrong, I still play in a cover group that does mainstream music for the money and crowd it brings. With my music though, my personal style which I love, only matters to me.
People like easy accessible music. I think as musicians we get so caught up in playing/technical things we sometimes forget to relate to everyday non-musos.
Jazz is not as popular as rock, rock is not as popular as rap/hip-hop.
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  #46  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:26 AM
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People like easy accessible music. I think as musicians we get so caught up in playing/technical things we sometimes forget to relate to everyday non-musos.
Jazz is not as popular as rock, rock is not as popular as rap/hip-hop.
The easier the access, the greater the bandwidth of popularity for sure, but what if I was to express it differently and suggest that the greater the sophistication of expression, the less the number of takers for it? The front end of any art form would be ground breaking, controversial, and making people squirm in general..

Jazz, like everything else has it own evolutionary cycle. It was really popular & accessible in the big band era. Everyone smiled, wore tuxes and dresses, danced their butt off every Saturday night at the ballroom. Cut to Miles Davis turning his back to the audience and playing a single note every 4 bars...


...
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  #47  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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It also tells us that alot about people who really don't listen very heavily to jazz and what is going on in modern jazz and it developments that seriously along the evolutionary path of the music to today and also even more about understanding those elements that those who actually truly play it taking the hard work and homework required like any study of substance and details in life to understand.
<snip>

If your going to truly understand Physics study Physics and don't get a textbook out on studying Home Economics for any hope of success on the subject. Jazz is just the same. It's something you love and develop a passion for and want to learn more about both as a player or listener alike..
Let me preface this with the following. First, I think you're an accomplished drummer, and perform with accomplished musicians. I just don't like the style of music you play.

I listened to your clips in the my playing section and it just doesn't float my boat. I say this with respect for the years of hard work that you've put in and because of the quality of your playing.

It strikes me as being somewhat aloft that you think we need to study jazz to appreciate it.

Do people study pop before they buy a Britney Spears album?

How about studying Hard Rock before they buy a AC/DC album?

I think you get the point. It just doesn't carry over to other genres. Why should we have to study anything to appreciate it? Most people either like something or they don't.

If you're going to play jazz of any other style of music then yes it warrants some study along with paying you dues et. al.

The average music buyer isn't going to do that. Why would you expect them to?
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  #48  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:47 AM
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Let me preface this with the following. First, I think you're an accomplished drummer, and perform with accomplished musicians. I just don't like the style of music you play.

I listened to your clips in the my playing section and it just doesn't float my boat. I say this with respect for the years of hard work that you've put in and because of the quality of your playing.

It strikes me as being somewhat aloft that you think we need to study jazz to appreciate it.

Do people study pop before they buy a Britney Spears album?

How about studying Hard Rock before they buy a AC/DC album?

I think you get the point. It just doesn't carry over to other genres. Why should we have to study anything to appreciate it? Most people either like sometime or they don't.

If you're going to play jazz of any other style of music then yes it warrants some study along with paying you dues et. al.

The average music buyer isn't going to do that. Why would you expect them to?

Jazz is different and a more complex musical language, a more detailed music requiring some study to fully appreciate in my view. Life has taught me that as a both a listener and a player alike. What style of jazz that I play is it that you don't dig in the clips? Straight ahead or out? I play and enjoy many forms of jazz professionally speaking not just ONE within the overall language of the music. I'm a jazz drummer playing jazz music that's what I do. I as a jazz musician also don't limit the full possibilities of musical expression and don't pass judgment accordingly on either or all. Some of the stuff that came later in my development as a pro player I didn't dig at all when I was 20, hated it actually to be honest. Funny enough I now totally love that very form of jazz expression like more open improv group concepts that took several years and lots of hands on playing experience with great players in that root of the jazz tree and listening to it to understand and enjoy. I can move from total straight ahead hard swinging jazz to open free in a heartbeat with genuine authority and enjoy all the variations in between as seen in the wide cross section of performance clips with various groups I have posted. Couldn't do this when I was young and opinionated and closed up believe me with the thick walls of musical bias to break down and a shut down ear to boot. How times change.... this can happen to anyone open minded enough to accept the challenge and yes jazz at times can be challenging both for listener or player alike. It's creative music at its true heart about breaking down walls and barriers and about constant change and exploring ideas and concepts not sitting still in one place.

Some of us are up for a challenge in life {player or listener} and want to continue learning and staying open minded during that process...........
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Last edited by Steamer; 11-24-2009 at 07:07 AM. Reason: more stuff
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  #49  
Old 11-24-2009, 04:48 AM
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"Jazz isn't dead. It just smells funny." ~Frank Zappa
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  #50  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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If your going to truly understand Physics study Physics and don't get a textbook out on studying Home Economics for any hope of success on the subject. Jazz is just the same. It's something you love and develop a passion for and want to learn more about both as a player or listener alike.
But jazz isn't physics, Stan, it's not a science. It's music, and the vast majority of listeners don't want to have to be required to take a course of study in preparation to enjoying music.

Maybe it's just that jazz sets the bar way too high, especially considering the rewards. To suggest that jazz is the only music that affords creative and artistic satisfaction to the musician is really simplistic and biased. Jazz does not own the exclusive rights to creativity or artistic expression.

And finally, do you think that the people who packed the clubs on 52nd Street wherever Charlie Parker was playing would have known what a flatted ninth was if it bit them in the ass? They were there for one reason only: they liked the music. That was a long time ago, you know.
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  #51  
Old 11-24-2009, 08:46 AM
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But jazz isn't physics, Stan, it's not a science. It's music, and the vast majority of listeners don't want to have to be required to take a course of study in preparation to enjoying music.

Maybe it's just that jazz sets the bar way too high, especially considering the rewards. To suggest that jazz is the only music that affords creative and artistic satisfaction to the musician is really simplistic and biased. Jazz does not own the exclusive rights to creativity or artistic expression.

Sure it is in its own way. People who play it actually understand that. Some hear more of the science of the sounds in it coming from the soul the more they listen to it over time and the more they get deeper into it over time. It's a multi level form of music in its basic makeup and "science".

Great art can also touch people on the spot through intuition... great jazz can do that too without direct knowledge of the inner details... some will miss the boat too along the way though due to pre-existing hangups and personal bias issues. You see this mostly with musicians funny enough i've sadly learned and less with listeners in many cases in history.

Never said or suggested that you did to twist my words and intent on point #2. You created that smoke screen yet again all on your own on that one, no surprise. I simply said it's a personal journey of creative expression, an artistic journey and desire shared with other like minded individuals along the way that again people who actually play the music fully understand and respect. There's lots of creative expression out there in the world no exclusive license or rights to it certainly not by jazz players alone. Some just prefer to channel it into a jazz concept medium without casting stones at how others wish to choose they own outlet of artistic expression. At least I do and am straight up honest about it.............
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:56 AM
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  #52  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:06 AM
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Yes, I've seen music appreciation classes, wine appreciation classes etc. Learning more often will assist in appreciation of art, wine and whatever other fine thing there is in life.

The key word in your statement is "fully". However, we all know that music can - and usually is - appreciated emotionally as well, as Conrad suggests.

An example. When I was about 10 a friend played me his big brother's album - starting with larks Tongues in Aspic Pt 1. It was a typical thing that a cheeky little brother would do, like dangling a spider in front of his sister's face to elicit an "Eeeuuuwww!". And I duly went "Eeeuuuwww!". I hated it.

Fast forward to my teens. High school was a nighmare. I was bullied and ostracised unmercifully. I changed from being sweet and gentle to depressed and angry. I heard LTIA Pt 1 again and it struck me like a hammer. It captured the bleakness and isolation - the blankness - perfectly. I became a KC fanatic. Did I know anything about the technicalities? No. Did I love the music as much as someone who'd worked out all the basslines? I'd say so.

I can't think of any highly vocal knockers of jazz who know nothing about it on this forum, anyway. I hope you're not meaning me. I've been a jazz and fusion enthusiast for over 30 years.
The emotional quality of this very music called jazz in particular is what attracted me to it in the first place Polly that combined with the more challenges elements of the music as a player and listener overall for me.. My ear and emotions were seeking a different path, outlet and form of expression. Jazz completely does that for me, personal choice we all have to make.........

I'm a very emotional player who's always strived to keep a certain raw emotional organic edge in his playing. Always have been so its not all science that basic common sense but the inner fine details and elements of playing this type of music do have a certain attraction to my intellectual/artistic side on a certain deeper level I wish to fufill. Jazz is a great vehicle for that goal I wish to achieve. Again personal choice........

Not you Polly by the way...:}
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:17 AM
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This perhaps harks back to Ian's comment about ignorance which = prejudice = insecurity = lashing out = dead thread.

I would guess that metal would suffer the same prejudice to some extent.. ( not sure about drum corps though.. I'm a huge fan )
Being a fan of drum corps music suggests to me that you are a fan of drumming as well as a fan of music. That's kind of the rub to the topic here isn't it? Put drums on one end and music on the other, and everyone here falls somewhere on that line in their appreciation and aspirations between the two.

Consider how often Stone's stick control is discussed here. One thing is obvious in a lot of the discussions though, many people don't read what Stone wrote at the beginning of the book. He says how to use the book and discusses how both the rudimental drummer and the orchestral snare drummer can and should use the book and what advantages it offers both.

I hate to say it, and as Stan has pointed out how some seem to troll for responses, that isn't my intention by writing this, but there is a lot ignorance about music in general. It's not limited to jazz, nor is it about understanding.

There is a common perspective now to playing odd time signatures by counting them in 4 regardless of the signature. Nothing new there. Western classical music has been doing it for long time. Regardless of the rhythm, melody or ligature, it's traditionally counted in even numbers without any psychological limitations created by a bar line. It's also full of music that doesn't line up or end nicely at a bar line. Outside of western music, odd time signatures are the norm. Jazz has nothing on anything when it comes to stepping out of the box. Nothing new there.

Who can't imagine Miles Davis or Grover Washington rather then Korsakov as being the mind behind "The Flight of the Bumble Bee?" Personally I see more history to jazz and Rock in piano minuets then I do with anything WM mght have to say about the subject. The music is respite with the unconventional and back beats while predating much of the history ascribed to jazz and rock. As DeltaDrummer pointed out, if there is an maligned music, it's classical. Although that is changing some with a lot of the metal. Bach and Mozart would have loved todays metal.

There's a lot of lip service to the knowing and understanding your instrument, here the drums, but not a lot of action. Back to what I first wrote, to understand where someone's opinion is coming from, we need to first make assumptions, necessary here, about where a poster puts themselves on that line between music and drums to understand and respect their opinions, ideas and notions. Nothing about any of this is good, bad, right or wrong. Music isn't rocket science, but it can be.

Just my 2 cents.
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:33 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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...

Honest question.

Every thread with even a sniff of the word jazz, gets targeted overheated and eventually explodes.Jazz seems to be the most debated genre of music. Or is it ?

Polly does suggest that a lot of the issues are common to other forms of music too, and she might be right, but I do see a lot more friction here than say, a Metal thread.

Any theories on why it is so?

...
Well,

You have to understand the time that you are living and the lack of time that most people have for the appreciation of something which takes a greater understanding to appreciate. They are busy people with a multitude of concerns other than who is the greatest jazz player ever. It is the same in the art world where Picasso isn't as easily and readily understood as Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel (what, you mean that THING is a human body?!). This is one side of the argument. This doesn't mean that one form of music is clearly superior to another, BTW.


The other side of the argument is that Jazz players tend to be their own worst enemies as I have been on tour with them on a strictly non-jazz gig. One of these guys was trying to inflict a pop style music with Jazz progressions and even would blurt out stupid things about the artist's music not being legit, who was paying him and on who's tour bus he happened to be riding (tour buses look huge but can feel very small on a 16 hour drive)! Jazz players also tend to dismiss great musicians like Steve Gadd and Hal Blaine as "sellouts" because they found a niche in the pop world. Steve always tried with bands like Stuff to show that he loved the Jazz world.

On an evolutionary scale, Jazz isn't the draw that it used to be as other forms of music have come about. Just like everything else, (cars, for example) music has to evolve. It doesn't mean there isn't room for the genre, just less time to appreciate it.

I have seen other styles mentioned on this thread such as Metal. I don't know that metal will ever reach the widespread acceptance some hope for; there is a reason why pop music is called pop music - pop is short for popular.

You know, sometimes the measure of a great musician is the restraint he shows in not just shredding ever song with a blazing demonstration of chops and showmanship.


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  #55  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:56 AM
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Being a fan of drum corps music suggests to me that you are a fan of drumming as well as a fan of music. That's kind of the rub to the topic here isn't it? Put drums on one end and music on the other, and everyone here falls somewhere on that line in their appreciation and aspirations between the two.

....
...there is a lot ignorance about music in general. It's not limited to jazz, nor is it about understanding.

There is a common perspective now to playing odd time signatures by counting them in 4 regardless of the signature. Nothing new there. Western classical music has been doing it for long time..... Music isn't rocket science, but it can be.

Just my 2 cents.
Great post, Don. Drums & Music...apples & oranges? hmmmmm. Sure!

Speaking for myself, quite aside from purely listening to or playing the music that I enjoy, a huge turn on is also to be enthralled by the mystique of rhythm. Perhaps the two have nothing to do with each other.

Studying patterns, overlays, poly rhythms, sub divisions, voicing, accents, ethnic concepts, rudiments..its all stuff that unlocks boxes in my head. Opens me up in a way, keeps me wide eyed and childlike about my instrument. Just the way I want it to be.

Complexity in rhythm or indeed in musical concepts doesn't automatically suggest that a listener has to struggle to comprehend or enjoy.

Some Afro Cuban poly-rhythms, West African 12/8s, some Indian taals in 71/2 beats, and indeed some Beethoven are all capable of getting you out of your lazyboy and head bang away with gay abandon.

I think what Stan is trying to say is that Jazz is like Sushi.
( ah, bad analogy,because the whole world loves sushi now.. except me ).

Some tastes are more acquired than others. Some are harder to get to than others. The gratification of that is very different from say biting into a nice juicy burger.

By that logic, jazz will be far from mainstream, unless it mutates into something accessible again. But then again easy access for some is instant karma and for others mind-numbingly mundane.

Different hot buttons.

...

Last edited by aydee; 11-24-2009 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:14 AM
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One of these guys was trying to inflict a pop style music with Jazz progressions
I know of a couple of other guys who pulled this gag... Walter Brecker and Donald Fagen .. ; )

Naw, seriously, I hear you. Purists tend to be intolerant people overly protective of what they might consider a marginalized art form that has little appreciation outside of a small niche..

..
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:32 AM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

Hey Stan, I deleted my post because by the time I'd written it you'd just addressed the emotional aspects so it seemed redundant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamer
I'm a very emotional player who's always strived to keep a certain raw emotional organic edge in his playing.
That's the thing I enjoy most about your bands. There's a Tony Allen song called Let The Drums Speak and the title says a lot to me. The YouTube clip is a rare closeup view with crisp audio of a really, really organic sounding drummer. Tasty plus.

There have been a lot of truths told in this thread IMO. Sometimes contradictory but still true.

I like.
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Old 11-24-2009, 03:02 PM
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Complexity in rhythm or indeed in musical concepts doesn't automatically suggest that a listener has to struggle to comprehend or enjoy.

...
Thought I was done, but I like that aydee. Not with jazz, or any music is there a wizard behind the curtain. Nobody is walking around with magic cyrstals in their pocket. If only it were that easy. There's only time, and only so much of it that you have to choose between your apples and oranges and where you're going to balance the two. We focus our energy the best way we know how to achieve whatever goals we have and get by the best we can. Also, ignorance isn't always a bad thing. If every drummer here made a list of everything they know about drumming or can competently play, and then another list of everything about drumming and all it's world wide implications they really know nothing about, our ignorance lists would be much longer than our list of knowledge and accomplishments.

Minimizing or disrespecting anothers point of view, tastes or interests has nothing to do with music, jazz or otherwise. It's just bad Sushi. Never cared for it myself either.
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  #59  
Old 11-24-2009, 03:13 PM
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It's just bad Sushi. Never cared for it myself either.
Tuna works but I bit into some sea urchin once.....ewwww.. the connoisseurs at the table told me it takes getting used to....ewwww
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

i would argue that jazz, especially the more esoteric forms like bop, does and always did have limited appeal. for one thing, it's instrumental music. instrumental music has always had limited appeal among the masses. the vast majority of the music listening public wants to hear songs, no matter what the genre. instrumental jazz has always been a fringe genre, even in its heyday, and has always appealed mostly to musicians and other serious aficionados. there's nothing wrong with that. it's just the nature of the beast.
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Purists tend to be intolerant people overly protective of what they might consider a marginalized art form that has little appreciation outside of a small niche..

..
Very good point. Probably the most concise version of the strongest point yet to be made.

This ingredient mixed with the reaction of those to over protective keepers of the [jazz] faith perpetuates the stigma we've all commented on.

I wonder if a reverse psychology by Jazzers stating "if you don't like it, well then you don't like it" would have overshadowed the frequent displays of contempt toward Jazz "snobbery".

To play along with the thread title, Jazz is a four letter word because people have bothered to argue/discuss its merits, artistic value, evolution, musical relevance and the huge slippery slope of whether it's understood or not. Naturally people get upset along the way and it's reinforced a bad attitude toward the discussion itself.

This does help me understand why Stan and Matt and I'm sure others don't enjoy the discourse as much. I probably wouldn't either if I were in their shoes.

Without being flip about it, I think Thaard might have been on to something at the beginning of this thread with his reference to Pizza.

Almost everybody likes pizza. Almost everybody likes music. Boy, people sure do love to fight about it though.

Try dropping a Chicago deep dish off at a NYFD for lunch and see what happens.

Jazz has the same type of devoted followers.

How do you like your Jazz, extra Marsalis or easy on the Monk?
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Old 11-24-2009, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

I think most of your answers are here in these responses.

I'll try a different tack. A lot of jazz is seen as a few guys playing a lot of solos over a rhythm section. Great if you love the soloist and or his instrument but not so great for anyone else. When a jazz band performs as a band, then they seem to have a much wider appeal, for example Count Basie, Stan Kenton, Dave Brubeck, Miles Davis (kind of blue era), Weather Report, Acoustic Ladyland. In these bands no single musician stands out but the composition/performance as a whole does.

So maybe the public perception of jazz and an unwillingness to explore it, causes a lot of frustration amongst Jazzers. Maybe some of that frustration comes out in the fora because we are all members of the public! Stan knows that I am!

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Old 11-24-2009, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

It's still very interesting to me to see this whole slant about how the popularity of jazz has anything to do with the issue. My old man dropped this post a while back and I think it bears repeating.

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Originally Posted by Mattsdad View Post
I happened to be googling jazz discussions and came upon this one. In light of the fact that my son has been a poster here, I thought I would drop by to see what drummerworld had to say. In my opinion all of these forums make the incorrect assumption that jazz musicians even care about being popular or if their art will ever be embraced universally. Maybe some of you other jazz musicians have different experiences, but in mine I have yet to meet a single serious jazz musician who cared about his music's popularity. To clarify; I say "serious" jazz musician. Some of these people chasing headlines will not be recalled a thousand years from now in any historical text. Musical perpetuity is never decided by the general public. It is almost entirely decided by musicologists who write the textbooks and pass along the knowledge to subsequent generations. I know this to be true because I am one of those people. If my reporting and analysis are of high enough caliber, said documents will be among those searched for and shared when archeologists dig through the strata in 10,000 years, searching for clues about a culture that will be as alien to them as Mars itself. If I state a strong enough case for jazz, then all of the present day discussions will be of no consequence. If the musicologist who pushes this tact fails, then jazz will drift off into an anonymous haze.

Those are really the only things serious jazz musicians care about. Now does that mean I want to starve just for the sake of starving? Of course not. But if I have to merely survive to have it my way in deference to making large sums of money working in musical genres I feel inferior then that's what I will do. Quite often there are those who counter by saying "Well if you had the chance to make all that money you certainly would." My honest response is "No that simply isn't true." And in my personal history avoiding those scenarios is well documented. I think people make the mistake of calling this perspective snobbery. I personally believe it is more an issue of strong convictions. Still if anyone ever feels the need to call me a jazz snob, I have no problem with that.
I think this is basically why this isn't a real factor with jazz guys. They see it their way and if that's not your thing, then why argue it out with you? They're essentially not interested in your perception or if a culture from today's era picks up on it. It's only about the music for the sake of the music and how that will be seen in future times as influencing the direction of a culture. And mostly, if they have to keep explaining it to the same people over and over then they're not making enough of it and of strong enough quality to do what needs to be done

I think many people have a hard time believing these hardcores like my old man don't care about being loved. Well, it's really true, they really don't care. He's always said that the music came first above all things except for the family. For most of my life we've moved from one side of the world to the other with Dad basically setting up jazz scenes in places that never had them as ways of building cultural bridges. He's known all over the world for this.

When the music goes bad or the scene is no longer genuine, he goes to a new country and starts the same thing there. We should have been millionaires a long time ago considering the people he's worked for and especially conducted, and very especially considering the people he's turned down because he thought they weren't serious.

Still the music's a big enough deal that he spends family money to keep this stuff going even when the money's tight. He's known and respected by every major jazz wheel himself but outside of education isn't really all that well known. And regarding that, he also doesn't care. All he cares about is the positive direction he's hoping to send the music.

He even went to the trouble of finding a woman to marry who would buy into all this. The old family story is that Dad and Mom's first date was a Chris Potter gig he was playing on, back when the great saxophonist was a teenage wonder. When the gig was over he supposedly asked my mom what she thought of it all, where Mom supposedly answered glamorous. After that they were always together and she buys Dad's angle hook line and sinker.

I first learned to write because of Dad's insistence that a jazz musician be the most articulate person in the room. I started the grilling when Dad gave me a book called Finding Forrester, which was about a recluse famous author teaching an inner city kid the joys of writing by taking the writer's words, and placing them into his own thoughts. When I first came to DW I had just initiated this proccess. And like the book's primary character Jammal Wilkes, I was /and still am/ accused of using other people's words. The family just laughed that off and have rarely directly responded to it. It was taught me to get accross a POV, and as those who personally know me here can attest it has little to do with the vibe you get in person. Dad even went as far as to write a published novel and numerous short stories to improve, and on the side became one of the busiest musicologists on the subject of jazz. He did this primarily to push along his point of view because he thinks that stuff is more lasting than chit chat.

Four years ago, when I got interested in pushing my technical limits through WFD I got no gripes from Mr. Hardcore because he saw all that as a way of practicing up for the big game, and his knowing that I truly loved jazz only encouraged him to believe that cleaning up an all around arsenal would only forward the jazz legacy, because if I failed as a player, I could still report on it and mostly do my part. I was also correctly instructed to fight when I thought I was supposed to. After all, why did I need to defend musical integrity issues with people who were often not interested in that anyway, when I had already been exposed to this level of art for art's sake intensity?

That's why I was so passionate about it back then. Basically no one was going to tell me what was right or wrong when I was already part of a family lineage that talked the talk and backed it up in a way that few could really understand and had demonstrated the courage to keep going when making the give up excuses would have been so easy.

It was also why I eventually saw the trying to convince people thing a waste of time. At a stupidly early age I was blessed to see things in this artform that few people are privelaged to see in a lifetime, and with an insider's perspective that I didn't earn, but plan to make good in the long term. My family's jazz legacy is now pushing 70 years or more, and not one single year has gone by when we weren't in the middle of it. I'm proud of that. And for anyone who babbles how that's some bizarre slant on name dropping, then you just don't get it or you're agenda hunting. I already know I'm not going to sway certain people, while the contention that the perspective makes these hardcores defensive is laughable.

In the case of Stan for instance the issue is more about distortion through ignorance, than any like or dislike you have for his music.

So seriously how do you explain all this to someone not willing to accept that families like mine even exist who take on this absurd degree of passionate loyalty, to something you can't even touch in any direct way?

My current answer is just don't.
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Old 11-24-2009, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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This does help me understand why Stan and Matt and I'm sure others don't enjoy the discourse as much. I probably wouldn't either if I were in their shoes.
I don't mind it these discussions at all as long as what is said {i've said} is not manipulated and used in a negative way against us {me} by certain individuals trying to present us as snobs or with a closed minded agendas for their own misguided hidden agendas.

See this much to often as of late. THAT"s what I don't enjoy. I'm happy to be doing what i'm doing being a pro jazz drummer, no need to defend that or how I play or think on that subject and make direct no bad intentions against anyone else for what they choose to do in life if different than my choice. The one{s} who try to manipulate our words have their own agenda to present to try to discredit the credibility of the honest folks who actually play and love this music in the real world away from the net and want to share from their years of actual experience and wisdom on the subject and the reasons why in some detail which maybe helpful to some others down the road. If that's not being respected and misrepresented with negative flame intent counter tactics I mentioned being brought into the thread then yes I get upset for good reason.

The "problems" with these discussions usually come from a select few or one in particular "playing the part" causing the discussions to take a negative tone with their attempt to discredit the viewpoint of the real deals trying to share their knowledge in a friendly open manner.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

Because if it was spelled Jazzz that would just be silly.

There are plenty of rock snobs too; see any discussion on the merits of Ringo star or find debate on Neil Peart vs. Mike Portnoy.

There are plenty of metal snobs who will spend hours on you tube debating who the is fastest drummer or most brutal, without any regard to musicality.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Because if it was spelled Jazzz that would just be silly.

There are plenty of rock snobs too; see any discussion on the merits of Ringo star or find debate on Neil Peart vs. Mike Portnoy.

There are plenty of metal snobs who will spend hours on you tube debating who the is fastest drummer or most brutal, without any regard to musicality.
Yes, and it's the internet, it's not Jazz; it's not Drummerworld;" it's not "all Stan's fault."

It's all Wynton's fault and Stan is only partially to blame. :)

As I told Stan, once he left the jazz discussion, there was no more jazz discussion. So before you start to insult him, think twice.

There is a lack of respect that some people will show on the internet that was more than apparent on the latest Jeff Ballard thread. We all play a little bit of devil's advocate and there is a usefulness in that because it does make someone a little aggravated and more adamant to prove their point. Then they give away all the goods in defense, whereas before, there was no reason to.

You start a thread on the merits of Jeff Ballard, "Does anybody like Jeff Ballard's work with Chick Corea?" Yawn, Yawn Yawn, nobody cares; but start a thread Jeff Ballard or Portnoy or John Bonham is a lousy drummer and you are an instant celebrity. You are hated, you are loved, you are an idiot, you are a brilliant. You got balls, no not really. You're just a little bit smart about how this game all plays out.

Jazz is a long standing genre that brings up a lot of good issues in music. It is the big daddy of everything that came later. These issues are complex and often very subtle, and people's opinions are varied. That's what makes it interesting. Someone like Jeff Johnson, a long standing member who has given a lot to this community, should be given the benefit of the doubt. I want to hear what he has to say. I don't want somebody to shut him out because he makes a comment about Wynton Marsalis, or because someone makes a comment about Smooth jazz that you don't agree with. Is it the case that Smooth Jazz or Wynton ruined jazz. Well, let's intelligently discuss the issues. That's very useful to some degree at least. Will it make you a better player? I don't know. Will more people come to your gig? I don't know. Will we save jazz in the end? I don't care.
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Old 11-24-2009, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

Matt,

One things for sure, you write well.

Although the dicussion sure has gone into popularity, much of the discussion centers around statements like this one from your dad;

But if I have to merely survive to have it my way in deference to making large sums of money working in musical genres I feel inferior then that's what I will do.

This is something you've discussed yourself, and it sure rubs some the wrong way. Some sensitvie souls equate an opinion of their music being inferior to another as just another way of saying they also are inferior. And honestly, how can one music be inferior to another? If that were true, would jazz be on the top rung of the ladder? The superior form musical expression? I doubt it, but if it was, just what flavor of jazz supercedes another for king of the hill? Music is only a competition if that's what's in you, and that has nothing to do with music in, and of itself. Again, there is no wizard behind the curtain no matter how much someone hopes or wishes there to be.

EDIT:

Matt, this came to me after and I am really curious of what you dad, as a musicologist and journalist would have to say to this. 10,000 years from now what would bring more discussion about pertinence from the talking heads in that time, Dylan or Davis, Baez or Brubeck, etc. My curiosity is not about the music, but about social context---and not as competing forces.

Last edited by donv; 11-24-2009 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Originally Posted by Deltadrummer View Post
Yes, and it's the internet, it's not Jazz; it's not Drummerworld;" it's not "all Stan's fault."

It's all Wynton's fault and Stan is only partially to blame. :)

As I told Stan, once he left the jazz discussion, there was no more jazz discussion. So before you start to insult him, think twice.

There is a lack of respect that some people will show on the internet that was more than apparent on the latest Jeff Ballard thread. We all play a little bit of devil's advocate and there is a usefulness in that because it does make someone a little aggravated and more adamant to prove their point. Then they give away all the goods in defense, whereas before, there was no reason to.

You start a thread on the merits of Jeff Ballard, "Does anybody like Jeff Ballard's work with Chick Corea?" Yawn, Yawn Yawn, nobody cares; but start a thread Jeff Ballard or Portnoy or John Bonham is a lousy drummer and you are an instant celebrity. You are hated, you are loved, you are an idiot, you are a brilliant. You got balls, no not really. You're just a little bit smart about how this game all plays out.

Jazz is a long standing genre that brings up a lot of good issues in music. It is the big daddy of everything that came later. These issues are complex and often very subtle, and people's opinions are varied. That's what makes it interesting. Someone like Jeff Johnson, a long standing member who has given a lot to this community, should be given the benefit of the doubt. I want to hear what he has to say. I don't want somebody to shut him out because he makes a comment about Wynton Marsalis, or because someone makes a comment about Smooth jazz that you don't agree with. Is it the case that Smooth Jazz or Wynton ruined jazz. Well, let's intelligently discuss the issues. That's very useful to some degree at least. Will it make you a better player? I don't know. Will more people come to your gig? I don't know. Will we save jazz in the end? I don't care.
Wow Ken, discussion over argument. Imagine, John Lennon, not Wynton. 8)

Stan, you make make excellent points, but understand that many of us try to weed through the nonsense for the discussion which is here, and to which you surely contribute to for the benefit of those looking for discussion. It is tough to sift through what is legitimate debate and what is malicious trolling.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Matt,
Although the dicussion sure has gone into popularity, much of the discussion centers around statements like this one from your dad;

But if I have to merely survive to have it my way in deference to making large sums of money working in musical genres I feel inferior then that's what I will do.

This is something you've discussed yourself, and it sure rubs some the wrong way. Some sensitvie souls equate an opinion of their music being inferior to another as just another way of saying they also are inferior. And honestly, how can one music be inferior to another? If that were true, would jazz be on the top rung of the ladder? The superior form musical expression? I doubt it, but if it was, just what flavor of jazz supercedes another for king of the hill? Music is only a competition if that's what's in you, and that has nothing to do with music in, and of itself. Again, there is no wizard behind the curtain no matter how much someone hopes or wishes there to be.
I agree, when we choose to play a cover in my band, one of the guitarists will always jump up and say: "But man, that's POP." I don't care, the song's great, and I'm sure the audience will like it. Not to mention, getting a good sound and groove while playing even a simple pop song is a lot harder than most people realise. And those two things are what musical drumming should really be about.


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Old 11-24-2009, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

Ken,

With all due respect and in the spirit of the original questioned posed by Abe as OP, it's less about the substance of responses during the discussion than the attitudes people have toward the genre.

This thread somehow became about how everybody relates to each other and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the reason that Jazz is a "four letter word", substitute "touchy subject" is because of close mindedness and stubbornness on the part of advocates and naysayers alike.

It should be OK to trash it and exalt it to the highest without everybody getting so bent out of shape. It's art so it speaks to everyone differently. There isn't so much a right and wrong to where you stand on your opinion of the music.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Ken,

With all due respect and in the spirit of the original questioned posed by Abe as OP, it's less about the substance of responses during the discussion than the attitudes people have toward the genre.

This thread somehow became about how everybody relates to each other and I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the reason that Jazz is a "four letter word", substitute "touchy subject" is because of close mindedness and stubbornness on the part of advocates and naysayers alike.

It should be OK to trash it and exalt it to the highest without everybody getting so bent out of shape. It's art so it speaks to everyone differently. There isn't so much a right and wrong to where you stand on your opinion of the music.
TTNW, it's just my opinion, but I think a discussion, even if buried in another, about how people relate to each other here is long over due. Often things are typed here that I doubt would get said face to face. At least I hope so? You're right, there is nothing wrong or right about trashing or exhalting unless you can only do it at someone expense.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

Many a good points made since i posted on here last. Honestly i find it amusing that the longer a thread goes on and the more genres of music that are listed that the preconceived stereotypes that are associated with said genres are listed in equal numbers.

just goes to show that ignorance can ruin anything, so as long as were defining thing here lets list some of those stereotypes so i dont get mixed up and forget who im supposed to be as a musician.
so if i got it right:

Jazz: players complete snobs about technique and the fact that jazz is the only true music form.

Metal: cavemen born with double pedals attached to their feet, addicted to speed, and the only urge to tear their eyes away from their preciouse drumometre is to drink beer or watch a joey jordison video or call anyone whos not metal "fags"

Folk: dirty stoned hippies.

Rock and roll: walking hard on's that do every drug under the sun.

i may have missed some, anyone please correct me if i missed anything or miss spoke i wanna make sure im properly defined and stay within my genre so that i dont cross any boundries with my music and make them have to think at all.
now if you'll excuse me i have to go get drunk and blast and double kick till my limbs fall off.cheers
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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This perhaps harks back to Ian's comment about ignorance which = prejudice = insecurity = lashing out = dead thread.

I would guess that metal would suffer the same prejudice to some extent.. ( not sure about drum corps though.. I'm a huge fan )
I think it's true that metal deals with a similar issue, but it's not the same. People tend to respect jazz in general. I think many assume that Jazz players look down upon them from the get go so a defensive tone is automatically taken. As a metal fan the tendency is for me to expect people not to like what I like, thus I am always the defensive one. I think if everyone would quit worrying about appearances and worry more about the discussion a lot more would be accomplished.

Peace, love, and rock and roll... or jazz... or death metal... or whatever you want to play.
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:49 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

I was/am hoping this thread wont turn into people lining up under their respective clan pennants with their daggers drawn defending their 'genre' tartans against other lesser heathens.

It was a rather simplistic observation that, IMO jazz threads carry more heat here & have a way of exploding like no other.

I am not a member of any other forum ( jazz/ or anything else for that matter ) so I have nothing to compare this experience to.
I have known many many serious jazz players in real life, most of whom actually seem a lot like Matt's dad as he described him.
Its them and their music and they aren't preaching to anybody or carrying any torches ( Wynton 'the exception' Marsailis comes to mind.. yet again.. ).
They couldn't care less about what the world or anybody thought of them or their music. Most of them are very humble and curious in a way that is at odds with their reputations and accomplishments.
The very anti-thesis of jazz snobs, I'd think. But I guess, as someone said the internet isn't real life..

...
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Old 11-24-2009, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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just goes to show that ignorance can ruin anything, so as long as were defining thing here lets list some of those stereotypes so i dont get mixed up and forget who im supposed to be as a musician.
so if i got it right:

Jazz: players complete snobs about technique and the fact that jazz is the only true music form.

Just remember NO ONE said that jazz music, its concepts or jazz players are better than anyone else or their own choice of personal expression during the course of this thread. Most actual real jazz players just happily go about the business of doing what they do to be snobs attacking other folks or their playing or choice of music. That's the REAL honest humble ones that is......

Cut the jazz snob BS card it never happened. NOBOBY...... well with the exception of the.....{fill the blank} tried to introduce that piece of raw meat to peck over as Matt calls it.

THAT was CREATED and brought into this thread by the flaming "playing the part" element to blow smoke yet again on having a good respecting all sides POV discussion.

Peace and dig what you do as much as I dig doing what floats my boat with all due respect.
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Some tastes are more acquired than others. Some are harder to get to than others. The gratification of that is very different from say biting into a nice juicy burger.

By that logic, jazz will be far from mainstream, unless it mutates into something accessible again. But then again easy access for some is instant karma and for others mind-numbingly mundane.

Different hot buttons.
What about "mainstream" jazz artists, like Jamie Cullum and Michael Buble? It seems that they are shunned by the jazz community at large and labeled as "too poppy to be jazz". Why not see them, instead, as an artist on the fringe of your genre that might serve as a gateway for someone to discover the richness that the artform of jazz has to offer? Seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot to me...

When I have students wanting to expand their horizons and learn how to play jazz, I find that they have a hard time jumping from Green Day right into Coltrane or Monk. It's a culture shock, basically, especially if they haven't listened to much jazz in the past. I can introduce them to more "accessible" music like Art Blakey, or more "impressive" yet almost pop-friendly artists like Buddy Rich. I don't start them out on Brian Blade or Elvin Jones, because the "Huh?" factor is present and gets in the way of the initial enjoyment, even though the level of musicianship is spectacular.

There IS a level of appreciation that has to be attained to enjoy much of it. It's like the first time you drink wine ("Ugh! This tastes like a sweaty jock strap..."), but after a while, you are able to appreciate the finer points and grow a taste for it. It seems to me that much of the "pop appeal" of jazz gave way to advancing musicianship, and artists getting more "tricky" with the music, and harmonic and rhythmic substitution and extension becoming the mode to express yourself, at the cost of the immediate accessibility of your audience. I mean, check out the music of the 1930s-1950s compared to what's come after, and when did the "mainstream" popularity start to wane? It's no coincidence. The musical horizons achieved by jazz in the last half-century are AWESOME, but you can't expect the general public to follow suit, especially since the masses tend to gravitate towards simple melodies, harmonies, and rhythms.

What turns me off most about jazz music is the musicians, and their "superior" attitude. I've heard many a jazz cat in the Portland scene utter that jazz is the only acceptable form of music, and everything else is not worthy of being called music (to paraphrase, but not too far off from the intended slighting). This is completely bogus and narrow-minded, but it is the mindset that runs rampant through the local jazz community at least.

Don't get me wrong, I love jazz like I love rock and world music, and it pays the bills okay in conjunction with everything else I do, but there's always going to be things about anything that you don't fully dig. People miss out when they start dismissing the forest because of the trees, but it's still their right to do so and have opinions about it. Snobbishness and snubbing aren't going to win anyone to your cause...
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:09 PM
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joeysnare joeysnare is offline
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

sorry if that sounded angry on my part, no good at humor while typing thing, that last post i did pertained to past threads and how pondering certain questions tend to eventually bring up sterotypes associated with certain genres. also it was meant to be a satirical poke at how silly it is to try and define any one of the said genres. its all music why not just enjoy it, definition is the guise that control wears, you cant control music as far as im concerned. \m/ \m/
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Originally Posted by mattsmith View Post
So seriously how do you explain all this to someone not willing to accept that families like mine even exist who take on this absurd degree of passionate loyalty, to something you can't even touch in any direct way?

My current answer is just don't.
Matt, I'm in a similar position as you are. Not as epic as your family's legacy but still. My dad has had his own 'folk free jazz' (lacking a better genre, basicly it's just art music) group for longer than I have lived. We as a family have made great sacrifices because of his art. When I was younger the whole band almost lived together, we also took a huge loan to afford a house where they could set up their own studio. The whole childhood I was surrounded by musicians, jazz and folk whatever. Lots of jamming and gigs around. My dad has also keep workshops on instrument building and on improvisation.

So we also had this talk some time ago. I already had made the mistake to argue about these things with people and basicly my old man said "just don't do it, I used to do it at your age and it never got me anywhere". And indeed, it's just a waste of time. If they don't understand jazz they most certanly won't understand 100% improvised music with selfmade instuments.

My dad's group has made many albums over the years, some have sold out. Some haven't. But even the one's that were sold out were never re-released. And that shows they aren't in it for the money. Only for the music and the art alone. And it shows on their gigs. I never really got it when I was a kid, "dad's just doing his crazy shitty music again". But now I understand everything (well not his music, but the things behind it). And I understand it when my dad speaks of "out of body experiences" on stage. I know why they play the way they play, 99,9% people will not get it. Even if I argue till the end of days about it.

I have the full respect for every person doing their art with as much passion and also for their families. <3
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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Most actual real jazz players just happily go about the business of doing what they do to be snobs attacking other folks or their playing or choice of music. That's the REAL honest humble ones that is......
Too bad most players in my town have an elitist attitude about their art form. I know some humble jazz musicians, but they are few and far between.

Guess who gets the most gigs...
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Old 11-24-2009, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Why is Jazz a Four Letter Word?

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What about "mainstream" jazz artists, like Jamie Cullum and Michael Buble? It seems that they are shunned by the jazz community at large and labeled as "too poppy to be jazz". Why not see them, instead, as an artist on the fringe of your genre that might serve as a gateway for someone to discover the richness that the artform of jazz has to offer? Seems like they are shooting themselves in the foot to me...

When I have students wanting to expand their horizons and learn how to play jazz, I find that they have a hard time jumping from Green Day right into Coltrane or Monk. It's a culture shock, basically, especially if they haven't listened to much jazz in the past. I can introduce them to more "accessible" music like Art Blakey, or more "impressive" yet almost pop-friendly artists like Buddy Rich. I don't start them out on Brian Blade or Elvin Jones, because the "Huh?" factor is present and gets in the way of the initial enjoyment, even though the level of musicianship is spectacular.

There IS a level of appreciation that has to be attained to enjoy much of it. It's like the first time you drink wine ("Ugh! This tastes like a sweaty jock strap..."), but after a while, you are able to appreciate the finer points and grow a taste for it. It seems to me that much of the "pop appeal" of jazz gave way to advancing musicianship, and artists getting more "tricky" with the music, and harmonic and rhythmic substitution and extension becoming the mode to express yourself, at the cost of the immediate accessibility of your audience. I mean, check out the music of the 1930s-1950s compared to what's come after, and when did the "mainstream" popularity start to wane? It's no coincidence. The musical horizons achieved by jazz in the last half-century are AWESOME, but you can't expect the general public to follow suit, especially since the masses tend to gravitate towards simple melodies, harmonies, and rhythms.

What turns me off most about jazz music is the musicians, and their "superior" attitude. I've heard many a jazz cat in the Portland scene utter that jazz is the only acceptable form of music, and everything else is not worthy of being called music (to paraphrase, but not too far off from the intended slighting). This is completely bogus and narrow-minded, but it is the mindset that runs rampant through the local jazz community at least.

Don't get me wrong, I love jazz like I love rock and world music, and it pays the bills okay in conjunction with everything else I do, but there's always going to be things about anything that you don't fully dig. People miss out when they start dismissing the forest because of the trees, but it's still their right to do so and have opinions about it. Snobbishness and snubbing aren't going to win anyone to your cause...

In real life Caddy I don't see that. What I see is musicians happily going about the business of just playing the music they enjoy and love with little concern of snobery over others. I'm sure it happens but I don't see it as much in the circles I travel in personally speaking but i'm sure it happens quite alot in the world.

Actually I know it happens for sure with the Be-Bop purist on another internet forum I know of. I'm not a "member" of THAT jazz club for the record my friend.........:}
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